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[unbuiltnautilus]

I was thinking of no.1s.

If you want to step out of the room for a couple of minutes, we can carry on without you

[cos918]

If Beale get their act together, there is no reason it cannot become the 'Southern' show..........

I asked the Kent display team if beale was on in 2017. I got a sort of yes. Well not much left of 2016 so if they want to put on a good show in early 2017 they had better hurry up and organise it


john

[cos918]

I'm afraid you can't specify a pool as a must John.

If you have an outdoor one (or lake) then it is subject to the vagaries of the weather and there is a good chance that the running programme will be disrupted in our wet climate. Better than nothing but not really ideal.

Once you bring it indoors a lot of other caveats apply. Will the floor loading be adequate in technical terms for example and then there are insurance issues. Many venues will not permit indoor pools in case of leakage/collapse. When the Model Engineer Exhibition first moved to Sandown Park a ground floor pool was permitted for the first year but after that the insurers said no.

And then only model boaters need a pool, not the aircraft, tank or other branches of modelling so the venue will not normally be willing to provide store and maintain a portable pool for maybe one event a year. So it has to be supplied by a third party (insured of course) so who will that be? The third party will then need to maintain, transport and probably erect and take down the pool at each venue - there is a cost there too.

Many years ago when the Model Engineer Exhibttion was held at Seymour Hall in London the venue included a swimming pool which was ideal and there are other shows which also had this option although I don't know of any at present.

These things are never simple.

Colin

Ok I will re-phrase it . A body of water that boats can sail on.
If it is an outdoor show then run it in summer time were there is less likely to be rained out. Some marquees etc. It's not rocket science. It is the show's organiser's problem to sort it out. Pick a venue that can cater for it. Warwick manage it fine.
I am hoping to go to the model railway show at the NEC this weekend. Would I go if all the locos were sat on tables and the layouts had no trains on them, IE nothing moving. I very much doubt I would go and if it was advertised like this I doubt many people go.
Most boats that go to model boat shows are RC and can sail . So let them have there environment in which they were made to operate ,water .


john

[Colin Bishop]

John, It serves no useful purpose to tell your Grandma how to suck eggs!

The people who organise shows are well aware of the circumstances under which they stage their events, the physical considerations, the financial considerations and other practicalities. They do the best they can within the constraints they are under and not everyone has a nice big demountable pool stored away for an annual outing.

Beale Park is a good example of where an 'outside' marquee type event can and has been run successfully in the past. But if the park management are not willing to play along for reasons of their own then there isn't much the local boating clubs can do.

Inside and outside facilities are not always conveniently adjoining, and when they are there may be practical limitations on the use of one or the other.

Warwick does tick most of the boxes but is very expensive for traders to attend.

Like in most things, compromises often have to be made. I'm sure that most organisers of model boat shows would like to have a pool but it just isn't always practically possible. On the other hand, if you settle for a club open day then you can see all the on the water sailing you want.

Colin

[cos918]

the idea of this thread was on how to secure long term success of model boating shows. I know several people who will not go to a model boat show if there is no sailing of some sort. As they can see models at shows where there is water. And we can all get the stuff we need, advice etc off the net so why go to a poor show ? so making excuse for shows that can be bothered to put in a pool of sorts .


john

[Colin Bishop]

Don't quite understand what you are saying there...

Colin

[philk]

I asked the Kent display team if beale was on in 2017. I got a sort of yes. Well not much left of 2016 so if they want to put on a good show in early 2017 they had better hurry up and organise it


john

organisation is in place for beale just waiting for confirmation that we can do it how we want without certain interference. meeting richard next week will know then. really want to rebuild beale to former glory but will not be able to with hands tied so will not try if thats the case. will know all next week.

phil (beale organiser)

as an aside i also run the marine section of the southern model show at headcorn which no one has yet mentioned. any useful feedback on that

[Subculture]

The world has changed. With the odd exception, most people tap into commercial entertainment in their spare time- travelling, cinema, eating out, computer gaming, web surfing, going down the gym etc. Hobbies like model making are often about making do with modest means, the antithesis of consumerism.

Therefore I think model shows of the type many have been accustomed to are in an unstoppable spiral of decline. It won't happen all at once, it will be a gradual drip, drip of descent until eventually few shows are sustainable.

Apologies if that sounds overly pessimistic, but the evidence is fairly clear for anyone to observe. I think ultimately the hobby will continue, but the way people engage in it will change.

[Shipmate60]

Phil,
I do wish you success with Beale.
This was the first "big" model boat event I attended ant it literally took my breath away.
I would love to see this show successful again and lots of traders in attendance.


Bob

[NFMike]

The world has changed.
....
Apologies if that sounds overly pessimistic, but the evidence is fairly clear for anyone to observe. I think ultimately the hobby will continue, but the way people engage in it will change.

I, reluctantly, agree. That prediction is encoded in much of this thread but masked by efforts to keep the shows going more or less as they are, which is doomed. They have to adapt a lot to suit the changed and changing world and I'm not sure they can.

[tigertiger]

I am not so pessimistic . The maker movement is growing in the USA, and probably in the U.K. too but doesn't have a name yet in the U.K.
Also more people are going 'off grid ' , and perhaps with money getting tighter people may be looking for things to do with modest means.

[phil_parker]

I, reluctantly, agree. That prediction is encoded in much of this thread but masked by efforts to keep the shows going more or less as they are, which is doomed. They have to adapt a lot to suit the changed and changing world and I'm not sure they can.

Rubbish. Shows will continue if some modellers want them enough to organise them and others want to support them. If you want to curl up and sit at home in front of the giant telly then the hobby will die for you. EVERY hobby has the doom mongers saying that it's all over and no-one wants to do anything, but if you look back through old magazines you'll find the same arguments through the ages.

Shows will adapt. Some people like to get out and see things. Maybe they will join with other events, maybe they will be put on by local clubs around their own water. Suppliers such as Deans and MMI have taken to running events over the last few years. Other shows will come and go as they always have done.

The hobby itself is changing. Look at a 1950s "kit" and you'll find some lumps of wood and a plan. Now we have fibreglass hulls and resin cast bits made from 3D printed masters. If you have a couple of hundred quid then you can buy a 4ft long injection moulded plastic battleship kit (Trumpeter).

Not every supplier, especially the cottage industries, has a sophisticated website nor the skills or money to build one. Taking a table somewhere is still the best way to persuade people to buy your product as far as kits are concerned. You can't handle the bits on-line and get a feel for how well a model goes together. Nor is on-line shopping as much FUN as doing it in person at an event. If it was, then there is a vast industry of markets, country fairs and ideal home type exhibitions that are also doomed but strangely seem to be thriving.

[Subculture]

Why rubbish? How many large shows in the south now. Three or four? What's the average age of those contributing and attending? How old will they be in ten or fifteen years time?

In the midlands and the North there is possibly more engagement. There is more industry up that way, and I think practical hobbies like model making tend to go hand in hand with that.

I'm not saying shows will disappear entirely, but I do think they'll either become much smaller or much fewer.

[tigertiger]

I suspect that the average age of people attending these shows 15 years ago is around the same as it is today. But I stand to be corrected.

[Subculture]

Perhaps time to go back to start of the thread and read what was said there?

[Tug-Kenny RIP]

Just 88 letters to read.       

This is one of the most popular threads we've had.     

cheers

ken

[inertia]

In the midlands and the North there is possibly more engagement. There is more industry up that way, and I think practical hobbies like model making tend to go hand in hand with that.

I'm not so sure about that theory. From our old customer database I am sure that there is a distinct bias toward the north-west, followed by the north-east, far south-west and East Anglia. There are relatively few customers in the lower RH quadrant of the map. I think this is more an indication of the seafaring tradition than industry. These days you'd be hard-pressed to need more than your fingers when counting the total number of deep mines, steel works, car plants and shipyards.
As far as "southern" shows go I used to visit Child Beale until The Copper Kettle in Pangbourn upped their B&B rate from £36 per night to £135 room-only the following year and Beale Park moved the traders from the central building to remote marquees. Sorry, but I'm not paying that for B&B and I don't like camping. We used to do the show at Shepton Mallet but company politics within the organisation and a disastrous double-booking of the venue one year killed that one off. I gather Weymouth was similarly killed off by local politics. The Southern Model Show was strangled by ------ venue-owners and attendance at Alfold seems to be sliding away as each year passes. Brighton is history; the Sandown shows are even further back in time and even the ME is dying at the hands of logistics and expense.
The only successful shows seem to be those organised for no-profit (Haydock, Ellesmere Port Canal Museum, Blackpool and Coalville) and Warwick - which is unique. That these are all north of Watford - or wherever "The North" starts - is probably more a measure of commitment and/or tradition than any reflection of the area's current industries.
Reading this through again there seems to be another common thread - greed - or was that too obvious to mention?

[tigertiger]

I am not sure that the supposition about age in the original post is correct . Even if it is the perception.
Looking at the old photo thread, many of the photos are not that far away from those you would see at Wicksteed.

[NFMike]

Rubbish.

Really? If you read my post and the embedded quote it is referring carefully you'll find that your comments later actually agree with me in many regards. The shows have to and are changing - we only disagree fundamentally in that you are sure they will continue and I'm not.

The point about handling the goods is a personal one that has been raised before and is worth examining. To get to a show and do this involves considerable travel and an entry fee. Say 50 miles each way at 10p a mile and £10 entry - £20. For small items it would probably be cheaper to order them by post and if they aren't suitable, bin them - and I get them when I want/need, not months too soon or too late. Secondly, for many items other people can advise how good an item is in reality, as on here. Thirdly, do you have a choice? The hobby is of a size where there is often only one supplier of a given part, so you can't shop around like you might for a vacuum cleaner for example.

As to the small traders not having a web presence, that is exactly what I mean by having to adapt to change. Making excuses for not adapting won't save you - look at the major companies that have died because they didn't see the way the internet was going to change life.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not glad that these things are happening. Like many older people I'd quite like a bit of stability but I also know that's a dream. As the saying goes - The only constant is change.

[tigertiger]

It is nice to be able to look and feel the stuff. But what I see more often is people posting on Mayhem and asking for comments on particular models. Some manufacturers have a long standing reputation for their kits, others for their hulls, not all the reputations are stellar, but the ability to ask in important. The role of the virtual community (blogosphere, and forums) is important in this regard.


The world has changed and so has the market. I am sure people have been saying 'adapt or die' , or something similar, since the industrial revolution. It is as true today as it was then. I see the purpose of the thread, as it started, is asking, 'how can we adapt?'. And not, "We're all doomed".

[carlmt]

Adaption requires a willingness from all parties to do so.  If the organisers of shows want to adapt them to attract more visitors or to make them more viable then, as show goers, we need to adapt our expectations to suit.

An example is the Blackpool show.  Originally, this was purely a model boat show.  As I understand it, it was dying on its feet.  However, it has now been intimated by the organisers that the show will be opened up to more modelling disciplines to attract greater visitor numbers (in the main) which will ensure that the show is viable for the foreseeable future.  Now, some 'dyed in the wool' model boaters might bemoan this approach, however, unless the show can be viable we wont have a show to visit!!!  I welcome this approach and wish it all the success.  So what if there are tank, truck, car or aircraft enthusiasts there?  You never know, little Johnny might just be smitten by a model boat he sees on display and wish to investigate the hobby further! He might only have come to the show because of the tanks.........

Evidence of this approach can be seen at the Intermodellbau show in Dortmund.  We all know that the majority of the children who visit that show (and there are very, very many!) have come mainly for the other disciplines rather than boats but, having watched them last year, they certainly appeared very enthusiastic when visiting the boat hall.

To me, it seems that some of the shows we have in the UK - not all - do need to adapt to survive.  Maybe a few less of the 'larger' shows - one a year or so in each of the geographical areas (NW, NE, MIDS, SW, S, SE), complimented by shows such as Wicksteed and Open Days laid on by Clubs.

[unbuiltnautilus]

as an aside i also run the marine section of the southern model show at headcorn which no one has yet mentioned. any useful feedback on that


Yep, doing a great job . The Display Team have been attending for about the last seven years, and the show has gone from strength to strength. Once again, a mix of disciplines ( and a pool!). Long may it continue.
Good luck with Beale, happy to support this event if it wants to be an event!!

[phil_parker]

Really? If you read my post and the embedded quote it is referring carefully you'll find that your comments later actually agree with me in many regards. The shows have to and are changing - we only disagree fundamentally in that you are sure they will continue and I'm not.

And yet the only fact on the table are that Warwick did as well this year as last. From this you conclude that shows won't continue it seems.

 

[NFMike]

I really don't know how you get from this: "They have to adapt a lot to suit the changed and changing world and I'm not sure they can."
to:

From this you conclude that shows won't continue it seems.

"I'm not sure" isn't what I'd call a conclusive statement.

[unbuiltnautilus]

Any way, despite the 'snippy snip snip' this thread is proving interesting.


Just an aside, my last post didn't register the 'quote' as a quote, giving the impression to the uninitiated, that I organise the Southern Model Show. It is in fact Phil Knell, who does a very good job of herding us boat modellers ( like cats ) to this event every year.


This question of which show survives and which does not, is a difficult one to pin down. I have attended enough currently dead shows to, hopefully have some insight. Two which are now gone, and were both big shows, are The Weymouth International Modellers Weekend and the ( cannot remember it's name ) Shepton Mallet Show. Both shows started in fairly recent years, the last twenty that is, got big, got poor, were gone. Both shows suffered from a drop off of attendees, most noticeable at Shepton Mallet walking up to the flight line with less traders year on year, and Weymouth at the Swannery Lake, as exhibitors dropped away ( giving the Display Team more room! ) year on year. It would be fair to assume that at both events it was a slow drop off of both exhibitors, traders and more than likely visitors, that contributed to their end. So no one group to blame, more a combination creating an unrecoverable death spiral. Both events had water.. not much at Shepton Mallet, that's for sure!
So I think these events follow the typical twelve or so year birth, life and death of a number of shows. As discussed previously, some events buck that trend. Most seem to be fairly central, not too far north or south, and are well supported by the bigger marine traders. I think all the time there are boat modellers, these shows will thrive, unless run by total spanners of course!
It is the other events that will probably come and go. As mentioned Alfold has a very small number of traders in attendance, but has a great atmosphere and with its potential move into July next year, should ( should ) avoid the worst of the summer weather. Beale Park needs water wings, despite being a fish!
Sumners Ponds near Horsham is in its fourth year and is going from strength to strength. Supported by the home club of The Southwater Dabblers, and the owners of the site themselves, it is an event 'on the up'.
So, I think big shows are more likely to survive, even if they end up with tanks driving round the sites, and smaller shows just need to keep up with the trends, Sumners Ponds dedicated a whole field to quadcopter racing for a second year, and very good it was too.
The Display Team will keep doing our wizz bangs wherever we are able to, in support of shows in the south, everyone else vote with your feet, ten quid is a good price for an all day event, meeting up with fellow modellers to chew the fat, striking deals with traders for the latest gizmo, and when it all gets too much, put your feet up and watch the boats sailing around the pond ( or not! ).