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Author Topic: Long term future of shows  (Read 31784 times)

Colin Bishop

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Long term future of shows
« on: November 17, 2016, 05:24:02 pm »

I'm sure I'm not the only one to have noticed the gradual reduction in footfall at model boat shows over the last few years. It is inevitable to some extent as the average age of model boaters continues to rise and the ones that fall off the perch are not being replaced in the same numbers. Also driving long distances on clogged roads become less attractive with increasing age.

I enjoyed Warwick at the weekend but the show is not so busy as it used to be and it isn't the only one in that situation. So there must come a point when a show becomes unviable and what then? Brighton Modelworld is a popular show but the organisers can no longer make the numbers work for them so will not be held next year. There will be others facing a similar situation.

Blackpool seems to have had a shot in the arm this year being under new management but I suspect it is something of an exception.

The shows are important to the hobby as they bring modellers together and also allow traders to display their wares as the local model shop is in terminal decline and internet shopping has its pros and cons.

Many shows are sponsored by commercial organisations which usually entail commercial costs at expensive venues and maybe this business model is becoming unsustainable in the longer term. So is the Blackpool option the way forward - or not?

It would be interesting to hear what people think.

Colin
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mrlownotes

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Re: Long term future of shows
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2016, 05:45:41 pm »

Today I was informed that the attendance for the Warwick show was greater than last year and is on for 2017.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Long term future of shows
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2016, 05:49:53 pm »

I wasn't able to go last year but Saturday did seem to be quieter than I recall for earlier years.

Colin
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Re: Long term future of shows
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2016, 05:54:45 pm »

The biggest change at Warwick which makes the numbers look lower is the amount of extra room now available in the front of the exhibition hall. Now there is more room it becomes less crowded and the layout of the stands has also helped. The show looked like it had a consistent number of visitors on each of the three days.
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Re: Long term future of shows
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2016, 05:55:39 pm »

Hi Colin,
seems you have the same problems like we have in Germany. We had a very good show in Bremen for many years but then the organiser gave up and for 2 years we had nothing. Then another organiser took over but the location was not that great as before. This and last year no planes were shown and seller were only for the cars and rails. This year there were only 2 halls, one for rails and sellers the other for cars tanks aggriculture and lorry and for boats, luckily a pool to get some on the water. Some pics could be seen here : http://www.rc-modellbau-schiffe.de/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=38164

b.r.  Sven
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Tug Chief

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Re: Long term future of shows
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2016, 06:30:23 pm »


It has been a few years since I have done a show but used to do 5 or 6 per year sometimes taking 20 plus models with me.  Towards the end it was losing all the fun element as 'show Nazis' we becoming like your proverbial security guard in a plastic uniform and things were stated like;
  • You can only have X amount of boats on display.
  • You must have your boats on display for both days of the show.
  • You cannot remove your boats prior to xxxx time on the Sunday.
  • You can sail from this time till this time and not a moment longer.
The above combined with the reduction in quality trade stalls also had an impact.  I used to love the Beal Park show and camp for the weekend, there would be many 100's of boats, 20 plus trade stands, always a lake full of boats, good few beers and a BBQ in the evening around the camp site and generally a really good time!  Other good shows were Weymouth, Ellesmere Port, Barleylands, Southwater Dabblers (Alfold), Ramsgate, Bluewater etc.


Sadly living in Spain and working In Papua New Guinea I don't get the time that I once had to attend shows but I hope to make the Spring Show at Elsmere port next year and also one of the tug towing events at Balne Moor later in the year.


Darren.
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TheLongBuild

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Re: Long term future of shows
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2016, 07:12:28 pm »

It has been a few years since I have done a show but used to do 5 or 6 per year sometimes taking 20 plus models with me.  Towards the end it was losing all the fun element as 'show Nazis' we becoming like your proverbial security guard in a plastic uniform and things were stated like;
  • You can only have X amount of boats on display.
  • Clubs are restricted to the amount of Table space in most cases so that all displays can be accommodated, so not fair on other members if you only have room for 20 boats an 1 member brings 20
  • You must have your boats on display for both days of the show.
  • So you then decide not to go 2nd day of show take all your 20 models and no gaps are replaced.. Public pay to see models on display not empty spaces
  • You cannot remove your boats prior to xxxx time on the Sunday.
  • Show finishes eg at 5pm , public pay to see boats until end of time so why should you be allowed to take boats of the displays say at 4, also posses a risk of boats being removed by light fingered people..( Has happened)
  • You can sail from this time till this time and not a moment longer.
  • To give every body a fair chance, No point having fast electrics in at the same time as fine models.. They will get hit. ( I have seen this happen when different classes of boats mix,)
Darren.


As above..

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Re: Long term future of shows
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2016, 07:57:11 pm »

I noticed it with Military modelling shows in the same way with attendees getting older and not being replaced. When the number of club exhibitors matches the number of visitors you know it isn't good.

But, I have noticed a trend in young people who have got into such online games as World of Tanks etc who have gone to a show and have been interested to see that there are real models being made and gamed with as well. I can see the same occuring with World of Warships, but wether this will fully restock the pool of attendees I do not know. They are certainly better informed than some of the 'World experts' who tell you your Panzer T37 is painted wrong or their Dad drove a Whippet in WW2 North Africa  %)

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Steve Dean

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Re: Long term future of shows
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2016, 09:34:37 pm »

Hi Colin (& other contributors to this thread).
To put some of what has been stated into context ...... the attendance at the International Model Boat Show was slightly higher this year than in 2015. However, as has been stated the square footage at the venue is now larger than it was a few years ago, therefore the visitor numbers are spread over a greater area.
In respect of Brighton Modelworld ...... for those that are not aware this fundamentally is a show run by the local Council (i.e. The Brighton Centre). The Modelworld Organising Group (MOG) have done a fantastic job over recent years BUT the event has to run at a profit. The dates offered for 2017 had serious problems. Firstly the Friday date would not have fallen in the half term holiday (which has a major impact on the mums with kids aspect of the Friday attendance) and secondly the Sunday date collides with the Brighton half marathon. The road closures make it a nightmare to get into Brighton. This created the 'perfect storm' for seriously depleting the projected 2017 attendance. MOG had no choice but to state that the show therefore would struggle to deliver a profit. Game over !!!!!!
We have to accept that model boats are one of the smallest sectors of the radio control hobby and generally we do suffer from what I like to call 'advanced youth'. We all need to do everything we can to encourage youngsters into the hobby and broaden our thinking to embrace the modern generation. In my local club we have created a membership structure which provides free membership to those under 10 and a very reduced rate from 10 - 18. Interestingly at the IMBS last week we had 52 youngsters on Saturday and 56 on Sunday have a go in the 'Kids Session' ......... so we can inspire them. We just to need make efforts to cultivate this interest.
Steve Dean (Pool Master at the IBMS and Brighton)
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Long term future of shows
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2016, 10:19:20 pm »

Thanks for the helpful input Steve. I really enjoyed the show as usual and was covering it for Model Boats magazine. Editor Paul Freshney tells me that he should be able to run three pages for the review and I can assure you that it is 100% positive with mentions of encouraging the youngsters and recommending the steak and kidney pie!

Your comments on Brighton simply confirm what I had already heard. The basic problem i that it is becoming difficult for 'traditional' modelling to support the larger commercial venues. This year the Model Engineer Exhibition returned but to the Brooklands Museum instead of Sandown Park. There is at the moment no guarantee that it will return in 2017. I don't know how the finances added up but the show is very heavily dependent upon volunteers for the organisation as well as the display side of things and has been for a while now.

I think it is true to say that there are a number of shows which are vulnerable to being knocked off course by being unable to weather setbacks such as experienced with Brighton Modelworld and once they are cancelled it is very difficult to start them up again.  As said in earlier posts, a number of long standing shows have fallen by the wayside in recent years or have become a shadow of their former self and they will not be coming back either.

As far as 'commercial' shows are concerned it has seemed to me that each set of organisers has stuck to their own show without exploring the possibility of pooling resources with competitors with the result that two may go under instead of one. For some years we had the ridiculous situation in the North West where two shows just a few miles apart competed with each other on the same weekend. In the London area there have surely been opportunities to combine the two engineering shows to produce a more healthy single one. People tend to go to one or the other but not both. There are probably other examples elsewhere.

On the plus side, some of the traders are being proactive by holding open days such as Deans Marine and Mobile Marine Models at which fellow traders can also sell their products but of course in these cases space is necessarily limited.

It just strikes me that we could wake up one year soon and suddenly find several very large holes in the show calendar.

Colin

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TheLongBuild

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Re: Long term future of shows
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2016, 10:41:21 pm »

If the 2 NW shows are the ones I think you are referring then I have
 to say that by the fact the 2 Northwest shows did not combine is probably a godsend considering recent events..
also one show is not for profit, the other was a totaly business show
 

Colin Bishop

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Re: Long term future of shows
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2016, 10:46:56 pm »

Very true Larry but leaving that aside it was a very silly situation, now resolved for the medium term at least although I understand that an alternative venue may need to be sought at some point on cost grounds.

Colin
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TheLongBuild

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Re: Long term future of shows
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2016, 10:49:36 pm »

Very true Larry but leaving that aside it was a very silly situation, now resolved for the medium term at least although I understand that an alternative venue may need to be sought at some point on cost grounds.

Colin
it was very silly, but not of the original shows making.

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Re: Long term future of shows
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2016, 11:07:13 pm »

***please,let's not dig up the past. Zero tolerance on that one ***
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Long term future of shows
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2016, 11:14:25 pm »

And I quite agree with that too but it wasn't any good for the hobby and just a rather extreme example of an organiser jealously guarding their own show against all comers. Sometimes leaving a financially crippled alternative! Perhaps in an ideal world we should have a not for profit organiser supported by the traders and also by the clubs which are an equally important component of shows.

Component Shop in sponsoring Blackpool and Coalville has taken an encouraging step forward in showing what might be possible for longer term stability. Of course it is easier said than done without leaving yourself financially exposed. There are few companies in the model boating world, including the publishers, who can afford to take significant financial risks. It is necessary to build up a financial cushion. Plus organising a show does require significant personnel resources whether paid or volunteers. In that sense you are really upscaling a large club event.

Colin
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inertia

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Re: Long term future of shows
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2016, 11:16:59 pm »

it was very silly, but not of the original shows making.

It is utterly pointless to continue with the acrimony now that the main - and only - protagonist has moved halfway around the world and, from what I hear, is most unlikely to return. To do so belittles you.
Wake up and smell the flowers, Larry.
DM
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unbuiltnautilus

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Re: Long term future of shows
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2016, 12:11:55 am »

Speaking as someone who has been a visitor, an exhibitor and a trader at different shows over the last thirty years, I have seen the rise and fall of a number of big shows. Sandown Park being the biggest. That event, I feel, was a child of its time, being held in the eighties and nineties, when money was for the spending. Then it was BIG! As money became tight, traders dropped out, this discouraged visitors through the gates, and the death spiral of diminishing returns eventually killed the event. Not helped by the huge costs of a trade stand back then. For two days, a 10 metre stand was about £950, rising to £1200 as the years rolled on. If you wanted lights and power that was an extra £300! With the rampant cut pricing that went on ( Stands would send runners round the show, clocking competitors prices for 2 channel radios, before the show opened, undercutting them to grab sales. A set costing £23 plus VAT trade would be selling for £28, just to get the edge on your competitors. how many would you have to sell to pay for a stand at £1200, do the maths!), profit was unlikely. As the chance of making the event pay tailed off, so did the traders. This has a knock on effect with the modellers not turning out for the next years event..goodbye event.
Not all shows are like this, some, not run by big professional money making machines seem to be able to function, almost despite themselves. The Alfold charity event in early June, this year had two traders in attendance, that's all, two. Despite this there were fourteen clubs in attendance, all had a great day. The Bring and Buy did okay ( could have done with more boats, less car boot tat! Note for next year, modellers! ), The Girl Guides did us proud with nibbles, and the water was in use all day long, plus money was raised for a good cause. I enjoyed the day immensely.
Beale Park, I have loads of time for Beale Park, but, by god, it's up and down more times than a b****y yo yo, sort it out, please!
Warwick seems to also buck the trend, consistently good event, year on year, traders taking some cash, modellers always bringing interesting models. It cannot just be the excellent pool side commentary ( We commentators must stick together, talented AND modest, how you lot would cope without us is a mystery! ), plus the fine food. I don't know stand costs these days, but I assume they are not as insane as the Sandown Park days, otherwise the traders would vote with their feet and have more of their own open days at minimal cost to themselves.
The best event I ever attended was the Model Engineer Exhibition at Alexandra Palace about fourteen or fifteen years ago. Two halls, indoor flying, Bond display with petrol tanks, trucks and helicopters, Portsmouth Display Team ( a talented bunch! ), lots of stuff, too much to remember in fact. The show made a six figure loss and nearly killed the Model Engineer Exhibition dead.
It seems to be a fine balance that has to be struck by event organisers, between what they can charge both traders and visitors, plus of course, exhibitors. Two events we attend at Yeovilton and Bovington, allow five members in free, after that, anyone extra pays a reduced rate. This helps to fend of the freeloaders, which we all know exist. They turn up with one 12" boat, stick it on the stand and are not seen again for the next six hours..you know who you are.
A suggestion from one of our members, which I like, cos it will stir the pot just a bit. Charge clubs a flat rate for attending, which goes towards offsetting the traders pitch costs. Not necessary at all events, maybe just some of those in parks, on the Thames..! This would make the risk for traders just that bit lower, encouraging them to attend, keeping the modellers happy as they have more goodies to buy, keeping the event alive for another year.
As far as encouraging youngsters into the hobby. It feels to me that over the years ( and years ) that I have been selling to the hobby, that the normal route to boat modelling happiness is to start with the help of Dad or Grandad when little, move out of the hobby when life gets in the way, and return to it in your thirties or forties. That seems to be fairly consistent for the last few decades at least. Before that, we were a nation of model builders, Meccano, Eagle comic, Keilkraft and so on. That ship sailed with the advent of the ZX81 and Commodore 64, we aint getting that back!
So, in summary, some shows are doomed, some survive like cockroaches, and some are run by true visionaries who deserve our support, it's bums on seats that keep shows alive, if that means mixing it up a bit, why not..keep up the good work chaps :-))
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imsinking

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Re: Long term future of shows
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2016, 12:47:56 am »

I was pleased to see kid's about at Blackpool's show , that's how it start's , they see something & want to have a go . .  .
The EDUKASHUN moron's don't want that , it's easier to sit at a comfy desk & mark pieces of paper rather than have to look at any practical work that's been done in a project scenario .
In the '90's - 2000 era you could go to shows and get the price of the ticket back by BUYING stuff , around £40-£50 usually did it , the trader's just can't do it anymore , cost of the stall / accommodation & internet competition etc , in fact retail premises are being closed down on a regular basis monthly,  there seems to be a migration to the 'net in large number's . . .
Bill  <:(
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Long term future of shows
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2016, 09:46:34 am »

The multi hobby approach that worked so well at this year's Norbreck show might be the way forward.  Attract people from other hobbies, let them see boats.  Of course, there might be a bit of traffic the other way.  Getting suitable venues at a sustainable price could be a stumbling block.  Any show that has to pay rent must finish up in the black, and situations can vary year o year.  At the first Tower show, the public was queued round the building (and Blackpool Tower is a big building) - we donated a large sum to the RNLI.  The second year reality crept in and I am told that the show was 85p in profit.
The other thing is to generally promote the hobby in a positive manner.  My club attends various non-boat functions through the year putting on a static display.  A couple of historic/classic car shows, the odd RNLI open day, most recently a park centenary celebration.  Members of the public get to see our efforts and some want to know more.  When playing boats at the lake, if it is a public lake, effectively we are showing and exhibiting to the public.  It might come as a surprise to many, but it is amazing, for a supposedly maritime nation, how many people have zero understanding of anything beyond their desktop.  We need to both entertain and educate them in the hope that some of them might try the hobby.
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Bob K

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Re: Long term future of shows
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2016, 09:57:04 am »

I love model boat shows, preferably open air ones with a good lake rather than indoor static displays (no, a mini paddling pool does not count).  Increasingly indoor events are tending towards all forms of model engineering with everything from tanks and planes to lathes and milling machines.  If that's what it takes to keep a show viable these days, so be it, but I will usually opt for boating lake venues up to two hours driving distance. 

I would like to make a plea here for organisers of such events to spread them out a bit rather than three shows over two adjacent weekends, with others also around the same time of year.  I will go to more (for all days) if they keep them practical rather than going to one show on the Saturday and a different show on the Sunday.

Perhaps more manufacturers could hold open days like Dean's Marine, which attract some amazing ships from around the UK and Europe.
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Re: Long term future of shows
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2016, 10:15:24 am »

I love model boat shows, ......

Perhaps more manufacturers could hold open days like Dean's Marine, which attract some amazing ships from around the UK and Europe.

You wouldn't want to come to a boat show at Linkspan HQ.........we wouldn't get everyone in the garage!!!!  {-) {-) {-)

As for costs for traders at Warwick - as most here know, this was our first time there as a trader and, yes, the cost can be a little steep (especially when you add in stand presentation prep costs etc.) but we never expected to recover that cost.  For us, it was a perfect opportunity to promote Linkspan Models, for us to show what we can do and to meet existing and new customers.  The same applied to Blackpool - albeit the stand cost was far more 'reasonable' (but I don't begrudge paying the cost as I realise that there are fixed costs to be covered).

Re the average age of attendees - For Warwick, the Friday is always mainly the more senior amongst us as those under 65 are still at work.  I did notice, however, that the age profile of visitors over the whole weekend appeared to be spread quite evenly - certainly most of those I spoke to about our plans and models were in my age-group (I am 53).  Maybe that is something to do with the type of ship model we market......the 'younger' generation have no 'affinity' to WWII warships, whereas a good proportion my age have travelled abroad when youngsters on the very ships that we at Linkspan are modelling.

I enjoyed the shows when I was just a modeller, and I enjoy them now as a trader - but for us, if all the shows charged what Warwick do, we would have to consider very carefully those that we went to!!!

Colin Bishop

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Re: Long term future of shows
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2016, 11:02:07 am »

We seem to be getting some interesting responses. What is clear is that small traders are being priced out of stands at traditional exhibition venues, this in turn reduces footfall and results in a downward spiral. Some show sponsors seem to feel that anything goes in terms of charging for stands and extras. It is a similar situation to shops on the high streets, a rent review results in a huge increase way beyond inflation and puts independent shops out of business so that only the multiples can afford to take the premises on.

I think one of the main reasons for Beale Park losing its popularity was when the park management decided to treat it as a means of directly generating income rather than being just satisfied with it increasing the footfall at the gate. They squeezed too hard and effectively killed it.

Are there alternative venues which could be used at less cost? Obviously not easy to find when property is worked intensively as it usually is these days. Ellesmere Port is currently becoming popular but I'm not sure what the economics of that show are like - perhaps someone can enlighten us?

Colin
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Re: Long term future of shows
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2016, 11:32:06 am »

Just to through some more info into the ring....
Up here in Scotland we have held a model show for the past few years at a museum.
It's free entry for visitors and clubs, traders needed to pay something as it is council building


The first few years turn out was reasonable but over the last few years it has been dwindling
The organisers have opened it up to all modelling elements. Some clubs can't event make a 15minute car journey to visit never mind attend and display, this year I got the local air cadet squadron to attend and they make airfix models and dioramas to a pretty good standard. Some model boat people were complaining about the cadets being there!!!


 as I see it in Scotland we have gotten to a place where few clubs interact and attend each other's shows and are very isolationist. Model boating will eventually fail as people and clubs can't make the effort to attend or display shows, other club open days  or even encourage others like the cadets into modelling (how many of us built airfix models early on before boats). The shows will go first then slowly the modellers will start to drift away <:( 
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Brian60

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Re: Long term future of shows
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2016, 12:05:41 pm »

It's not a case of the younger generation not modelling, they do.

Trouble is moving with the times, boats, and to some extent aircraft and cars have been left behind. The in thing for modelling nowadays is sci fi. OK they are static models for the most part, but the market for star trek, star wars, warhammer, space marines, lord of the rings, gundam etc etc is huge. They have their own conventions or tack on to others of the same genre like Comic Con.

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Re: Long term future of shows
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2016, 12:07:56 pm »

in terms of shows and alternative venues, then I think  there are more unconventional options, look at sumners ponds model show for an example,

Its a camp site and fishing lake, - but now their  multi discipline show is growing year on year,  a field for BRCA and buggy racing, a flying field for fixed wing and rotor models, another field for multi-rotor racing/ FPV quads and then finally a lake dedicated to Boats, - add to that  marquees with large scale railway models, plastic model displays, etc...

Trade stands are present, but more would be good -  but the show is still in its infancy, I thinks its about the 5 th year is been on,  more traders would be good for all aspects, marine, buggys, aircraft etc , but I can say this is a really good show and its improving every year... yes its commercial, but its doesn't feel commercial, they don't outwardly go out of their way to fleece modellers or visitors, it doesn't feel like you are being exploited, - in fact the opposite...

with the added bonus of things like the Portsmouth displays, the tanks and boats , the bangs and crash displays, the  show is a good day out  that doesn't cost an arm and a leg...

Having exhibited at Warwick now for the last 10 years or so i think the visitor numbers feel similar year on tear, but certainly the displays and traders change, the area under the cafe end used to be full of models, now extra seating, - there were clubs who displayed year in and year out and now they don't appear,  - and i wonder how long it will be before our club go the same way, we have a lot of members who wont make the 80 min drive to the show, and we have a small number of active  members who will make the effort to display.... but as was stated a lot of our members are in advanced years....

But i also see the problem, big exhibition halls cost money, and these costs are passed onto  traders, sometimes with a big dose of profit added to trade stand fees....

so this where I think the more obscure venues like sports halls, schools, camp-sites and similar come into their own, - use them or loose them, roll on Coalville next year....Sumners ponds....Alfold......etc......


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all in all its just another brick in the wall......
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