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Author Topic: Cheddar Automatic Boiler Control  (Read 3023 times)

Andy-H

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Cheddar Automatic Boiler Control
« on: January 07, 2025, 02:28:42 pm »

Anybody happen to have a PDF or scanned copy of the instructions?  I have one, along with a Cheddar plant, but the previous owner removed the plant from the hull prior to sale, and while he provided his notes/etc, they don't exactly jive with what I have.


Much appreciated!








As a disclamer, that is not my magnificent work!  I did have to re-install all the machinery, and I've steamed it up manually. 
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DBS88

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Re: Cheddar Automatic Boiler Control
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2025, 04:51:02 pm »

I have the same boiler and engine setup in my tug, pm me with what you need and I will send it to you
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DBS88

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Re: Cheddar Automatic Boiler Control
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2025, 09:32:05 pm »

From your photo it looks like the Boiler Control System is not yet installed. Is the boiler the 4 inch Proteus Boiler or the 5 inch Proteus Boiler? I am unable to see the sight glass in the photos, where the ABC system is being used Cheddar put the sight glass at the other end of the boiler to the burner to protect the water level sensor from excesive heat. You will need a sight glass and sight glass water level sensor to operate the ABC. I can see the boiler temp/pressure sensor ready installed. Have you got a gas safety cut off valve? For the pump the Cheddar ABC can operate a servo to turn on a switch to start and stop the pump. One of the advantages of the new version of the ABC from Dénes Designs is that it provides 5 volts directly to power a pump. Since you are using an electric pump and not using engine driven pumps you will not need a water bypass valve, engine driven pumps are always pumping water so it needs somewhere to go when the boiler is at the right level.


If you would like some advice about setting up the ABC, I have set up a few, so happy to assist you as far as I am able to. Have a read of the info on this link it may well be of assistance to you, it details the setup of one of my ABC Systems - [size=78%]https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,68100.0.html[/size]

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Andy-H

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Re: Cheddar Automatic Boiler Control
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2025, 03:30:04 am »

The system is not yet installed.  I have connected the pressure sensor and the water level sensor as per the connection diagram which I have, and I had the gas valve servo connected as well.  I'll take some better pics of the install tomorrow.  There is a sight glass installed, and it's on the same end of the boiler as the burner.  As far as I know, the previous owner had this setup working.  I'm not sure about the safety cut off valve, there is a valve on the tank as well as the servo operated regulator valve. 


And not sure if I have a 4" or 5"...  is that refering to diameter or length?   



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DBS88

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Re: Cheddar Automatic Boiler Control
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2025, 08:37:23 am »

Andy re the size, 4 inches or 5, it’s the diameter of the boiler, Cheddar made a few 5 inch boilers, but most common are the 4 inch. For the water levels there are two sensors, one for the supplemental water supply to warn that the water in the tanks is low and the second is an electronic optical sensor that can fail if it gets too hot. I had one of mine fail, it was fine when cold but wouldn’t work when hot. Replacement optical sensors are available from Dènes Designs. The optical sensor checks the level of water in the boiler sight glass, when the water level drops below the sensor the system calls for water to be pumped into the boiler until the water level rises above the sensor, the system then continues to pump water for a predetermined time and then stops. The new replacement sensors have additional capabilities in that they have a system that reduces false alarms. Looking forward to seeing the additional photos.
If you message me with your email I will send you the instructions for the ABC unit.
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DBS88

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Re: Cheddar Automatic Boiler Control
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2025, 01:06:18 pm »

Andy, from the further photos I have seen, a number of things to consider addressing.
1) the sight glass sensor is right next to the burner, so is exposed to heat. The reason the sight glass was moved to the other end of the boiler on later versions of the Proteus boiler was to minimise the heat on the sensor and to try to reduce bubble formation in the sightglass again from the heat of the burner boiling the water in the glass causing false alarms or put another way, wrongly triggering the call for more water to the boiler when its not actually required. The Dénes replacement sensor is heat compensated and has debouncing software designed to eliminate false alarms. You could consider relocating the sightglass to the other end of the boiler, it should already have the bushes. Should you need a replacement sensor email Dénes at [email protected]
2) the sightglass sensor is unlikely to work as currently installed because the black cap that covers the circuit board and light sensor is missing. The black cap is there to exclude external light. The sensor uses the fact that water bends light, so when the glass is full of water the light does not go on the sensor, when there is no water the light falls on the sensor which triggers the ABC to demand more water.
3) The servo pump may not be sufficient to keep up with the demand from two puffin engines, it would in the normal way of things extend run times, however, when using the ABC you need the pump to put water into the boiler faster than its being used, otherwise the water level in the boiler will not rise above the sensor level to satisfy the demand and turn the pump off until the next time water is needed.
4) The pump is unlikely to be able to pump water into the boiler the way its piped at the moment, the piping from the pump to the boiler needs to be hard piped (copper or brass), it appears to piped with silicone tubing. It's Ok to have silicone piping on the suction side of the pump, but not on the pressure side. The boiler will likely be operating at 45psi and no higher, since its suppling oscillating engines, the pump therefore needs to overcome the boiler pressure to get water into the boiler - having soft piping will severely reduce the effectiveness of the pump, since it will expand under pressure and may prevent water from getting in altogether.
Hope this helps you with your set up
Here is a link to a video of my twin puffin set up with proteus boiler and ABC running on steam. You will see the position of the sight glass and the sightglass sensor, you will see the water bypass valve close to put water into the boiler, and you will then see it open again to continue pumping water round the onboard tanks(engine driven pumps are always pumping so need the bypass circuit). You will also notice the water supply from the pumps to the boiler is hard piped, the silicone piping is from one supply tank to the pump, so on the suction side https://youtu.be/eowcr7dVezg?si=m09LY3QJWx02XU2k
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Andy-H

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Re: Cheddar Automatic Boiler Control
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2025, 10:01:22 pm »

I appreciate the insights! 


The previous owner said that the installation had worked pretty much as I have it set up, at least to the best of his recollection, but R.E. the powered water pump input I take your point, and it makes perfect sense.  With the ship I got a support kit, that had a small battery operated water pump to move water in and out of the ship's feedwater tanks.  That pump has gone "boobs" up, seemingly overnight, and I'm having some small issues sourcing a replacemnt at a reasonable price.  That is keeping me from firing the plant up and checking out stuff like wether the pump can actually pump watner into the boiler when it's lit off.  I would guess that there's a check valve in the line feeding the boiler, seems a reasonable thing to do, which would prevent boiler pressure water from acting on the pump in reverse.  Haven't verified that, but I may make it out to the shop tonight for some "puttering" as the wife calls it.  I did manage to source some propane/butane/isobutane gas locally, so that's a plus, O don't have to depend on Amazon and the USPS shipping it all over the country on it's way to me.  So hopefully I'l have some further observations.  Soon. 


One downside of the winter is that my dehumidifier isn't producing gallons of distilled water every other day.... 
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1967Brutus

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Re: Cheddar Automatic Boiler Control
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2025, 11:40:08 am »


One downside of the winter is that my dehumidifier isn't producing gallons of distilled water every other day....

Don't use that water... It is horribly dirty and usually pretty acidic.
It basically is of the same quality as the drainage from tumbledryers and airconditioners and unusable for running steam plants on.

Not a fan of de-ionized water or rainwater, but both are VERY much preferrable over water from a dehumidifier.
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Mege66

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Re: Cheddar Automatic Boiler Control
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2025, 08:13:58 pm »

Hi 1967Brutus

You wrote …and usually pretty acidic.


How do you come to that conclusion? In the end it is condensated humidity which would have to be contaminated by acids to end up as acidic condensate. But where shall this acids come from?

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JimG

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Re: Cheddar Automatic Boiler Control
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2025, 09:28:11 pm »

One source of acidity I can think of is that the condensate dripping off of the condenser will pick up dissolved carbon dioxide producing a weak solution of carbonic acid, however this would very quickly be lost when the water is boiled. The water may pick up some organic matter when sitting in the condensate tank which might decompose producing some form of organic acid.
Jim
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Cheddar Automatic Boiler Control
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2025, 10:59:55 pm »

Don't use that water... It is horribly dirty and usually pretty acidic.
It basically is of the same quality as the drainage from tumbledryers and airconditioners and unusable for running steam plants on.

Not a fan of de-ionized water or rainwater, but both are VERY much preferrable over water from a dehumidifier.


The condensate from my dehumidifier always tests at pH7 and it is filtered before use.  I've even tested for TDS and chlorides in the past and got no reading.


It should be perfectly good for model boiler use.
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1967Brutus

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Re: Cheddar Automatic Boiler Control
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2025, 12:25:48 am »

One source of acidity I can think of is that the condensate dripping off of the condenser will pick up dissolved carbon dioxide producing a weak solution of carbonic acid, however this would very quickly be lost when the water is boiled. The water may pick up some organic matter when sitting in the condensate tank which might decompose producing some form of organic acid.
Jim

It depends on whether that carbonic acid has something to interact with.
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1967Brutus

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Re: Cheddar Automatic Boiler Control
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2025, 12:31:27 am »


The condensate from my dehumidifier always tests at pH7 and it is filtered before use.  I've even tested for TDS and chlorides in the past and got no reading.


It should be perfectly good for model boiler use.

If yours tests like that, then no issues indeed. I guess it depends on where your dehumidifier is located (living areas or not, "life" is the source of the CO2 which causes the issues).

I have, as an engineer, had HUGE issues when some clever predecessor of mine rerouted the AirCon drain to the feedwater tank of the steamsystem I was working with back then (free water, huh? What's not to like?), and not only the watertest values and treatment chemical dosage went through the roof, but within a year from newbuilding all sorts of automation-related appendages started malfunctioning due to corrosion and deposits, despite the water as being tested after treatment, testing within range. I was not yet on that ship when that drain was rerouted, and it took me almost a year to find it (the culprit had long since gone and there was no info in the old handovers).

I have since then always steered clear from those "handy" sources of "clean" water. I test, and I filter, but those tests and filtration have their limits.
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Cheddar Automatic Boiler Control
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2025, 09:40:56 am »

I think there is indeed a world of difference between an industrial sized air conditioning plant which, if not maintained correctly, can become a breeding ground for legionella bacteria, particularly in the drain system, feeding a high or medium pressure ship's boiler, and my workshop dehumidifier supplying a model boiler.  This is precisely why modern industrial AC plant have a number of anti-bacterial devices built into the heat exchange units and the drain systems to combat this, such as UV lights and chemical dosing systems.


I once sailed on a vessel that had solid welded grey water drain lines pass through the double bottom boiler feed tank.  Unfortunately the grey water corroded through the pipe and leaked into the feed water after a few years and contaminated the feed water.  By the time we saw the feed water analysis go through the roof and identified where it was coming from it was already too late to prevent the boiler requiring retubing.  I joined the ship to find the boiler top plate upwards hanging from chain blocks and the furnace sat on the tank tops with nothing in between and the instruction, "Look after the other boiler"
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1967Brutus

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Re: Cheddar Automatic Boiler Control
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2025, 12:26:38 pm »

I think there is indeed a world of difference between an industrial sized air conditioning plant which, if not maintained correctly, can become a breeding ground for legionella bacteria, particularly in the drain system, feeding a high or medium pressure ship's boiler, and my workshop dehumidifier supplying a model boiler.  This is precisely why modern industrial AC plant have a number of anti-bacterial devices built into the heat exchange units and the drain systems to combat this, such as UV lights and chemical dosing systems.


I once sailed on a vessel that had solid welded grey water drain lines pass through the double bottom boiler feed tank.  Unfortunately the grey water corroded through the pipe and leaked into the feed water after a few years and contaminated the feed water.  By the time we saw the feed water analysis go through the roof and identified where it was coming from it was already too late to prevent the boiler requiring retubing.  I joined the ship to find the boiler top plate upwards hanging from chain blocks and the furnace sat on the tank tops with nothing in between and the instruction, "Look after the other boiler"

The vessel in my case was about 2 years old at the time of my first joining as part of the 2nd crewchange after reflagging. The crew I took over from accepted the vessel at flag change, and were confronted with a horribly non-cooperative steam system fighting them at every step of the way. The burners worked, pressure controls worked, the boilers produced steam, but other than that, none of the automation worked properly. Literally NONE. Circulation pumps, level controls, level alarms, make up systems, all erratic.
That first crew was unfamiliar with the type, and made a few pretty panic-inspired modifications.
The situation was so bad, that preparing the engine and machinery for manouvering and departure required all engineroom staff, people manning pumps and filling hoses in order to keep the boilers from shutting down (heavy fuel, so no steam=>no hot fuel=> no propulsion or electrical power).
 
I happened to have served on a near identical sister vessel, so I was a bit more familiar with what should be expected, and what kind of chemical dosage SHOULD be normal. The other crew was unaware of that and therefore, they focused on the mechanical side of the malfunctions.
I found floatswitches but also levelglasses and such completely blocked, making it impossible to operate the system manually on the visual indications, because there were none.
I had all those floatswitches and level glasses and other stuff fixed, undid the mods, but the chemical values remained, which worried me but at the time I really was at a loss as to why.

I discovered the fairly well hidden drain rerouting hose one or two contracts later by sheer luck, stumbling over a piece of "garden hose" that should not be there when working on the AirCon. Following that hose (it was only about 25 metres long but sigzagged along several bulkhead penetrations (and had been painted over white as to not stand out?) to find it end up in a big unmarked pipe that turned out to be the ventpipe of the feedwater tank.

Removing it, the chemical test values dramatically dropped within 2 weeks.
Fortunately, at next drydock the boilers proved to be relatively undamaged (some slight pittings along the waterlevel line not requiring retubing).

In my 32 years at sea, I have never seen any treatment system for AirCon drainwater systems, or other measures to prevent bacterial growth. In drinking water systems it is pretty common nowadays, but for some reason, AirCons are overlooked when it comes to that.

But mind you, it is NOT the difference between "industrial" and "domestic" that determines water quality, but the type of air that is being handled. More specific, the number of people living in the conditioned space, and the amount of recirculation of air. An airconditioned unmanned switchboard room is different from living quarters where people live, eat, drink, prepare food, take showers, smoke, excercise etc etc. A condensing tumbledryer in an empty shed at the outskirts of town produces different water than one on the 10th floor of an appartmentbuilding in town centre.
That is why in general, unless conditions are known and the water is tested, I do not recommend such condensate because "it is condensed water form a tumbledryer/dehumidifier so it should be OK" is not automatically valid.

That is my SOLE intention with posts like this. Do not trust things to be such&so, "just because". Steam plants are expensive, and we put a LOT of effort and money in them. Skimping on feedwater is penny wise, pound foolish.
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Cheddar Automatic Boiler Control
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2025, 02:37:40 pm »

Precisely why I tested it.
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SteamboatPhil

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Re: Cheddar Automatic Boiler Control
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2025, 04:26:13 pm »

Very sound advice  :-)
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Andy-H

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Re: Cheddar Automatic Boiler Control
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2025, 04:28:04 pm »

I didn't realize that statement would create so much conversation...


My dehumdifier is fairly new, and as such, I suspect that the coils/etc are still very clean.  I do sand in the shop, and have no sort of dust collection system other than falling to the ground, so it's possible that some contaminants may make their way onto the coils eventually.  I did stick a pool test strip into the water tank once, and it came back pretty much zero chlorine as expected and neutral PH.  But I'll continue to check from time to time..  but frankly, I trust it more than distilled water I get from the store, no idea what kind of standards they maintain in their production facility.   


On the ABC note, I've gotten some good suggestions and pointers, currently waiting for a new feedwater transfer pump to show up so I can fill the tanks on the boat and steam her up!
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1967Brutus

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Re: Cheddar Automatic Boiler Control
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2025, 04:48:01 pm »

but frankly, I trust it more than distilled water I get from the store, no idea what kind of standards they maintain in their production facility. 

Having been involved in "watermaking" for both human consumption as well as high standard tank cleaning, for close to 30 years, and later responsible for purchasing destilled water in bulk for tankcleaning and technical purposes, I think you are way wrong there.
Now would you own either an osmosis- or vacuum desalinizer, or even a regular Ion-exchanger, I would say yes, go ahead, you are absolutely right.


That is equipment designed to produce water of a decent quality, and comes with a manual that has a troubleshooting section, and ways to determine malfunctioning.


A dehumidifyer is a different thing, for which water is a waste byproduct, the thing is literally NOT designed with the production of water in mind nor does it have any design features that keep the quality of the produced water in check whatsoever.

But in the end, it's YOUR choice.
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DBS88

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Re: Cheddar Automatic Boiler Control
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2025, 09:41:07 pm »

The discussion on water has been both interesting and informative, for info here is a Cheddar ABC system in use with a Cheddar Proteus Engine and boiler, the system maintains the boiler pressure rock steady even with water being pumped into the boiler, the proteus boiler is really good and the proteus engine is a masterpiece of steam engineering, it’s powerful and rev so freely. Automatic Boiler Controls are a useful addition to a steam plant. https://youtu.be/40fQpuRRTsA?si=CENwkDNEIscbUwzD
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