Topic: Springer drive problems (Read 4926 times)

leachim · « **on:** August 18, 2021, 08:11:24 pm »

First time out for my new Springer today and apart from needing to sort the ballast out as it was listing to one side it went well. However the motor kept cutting out. Checked all connections and all seems ok but put it in forward drive and it starts then stops and drifts for a few seconds before starting again with the same in reverse. Very off putting and not condusive to enjoyable sailing.
Can anyone suggest a reason for this? it happens in forward and reverse.
Flysky fs-i6 radio and flysky 6 channel reciever, 6v NIMH battery pack driving Mtronics M500 motor through Viper Marine 10 ESC with BEC.

Martin (Admin) · « **Reply #1 on:** August 18, 2021, 09:32:28 pm »

When you bring it in, is anything very hot?

Is the shaft free running when you hold it lake side full power?

Any loose wires?

What Ampage is the ESC rated at?

leachim · « **Reply #2 on:** August 18, 2021, 10:13:01 pm »

No loose wires, all connections sound and shaft running freely. ESC is 10 amp. Nothing felt warm when I took the boat out of the water. It has been suggested to me that the 10 amp ESC could have overheated causing it to shut down then restart as it cooled which sounds plausible to me. I will replace the ESC with a higher ampage one and see if that improves the situation.

tr7v8 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 18, 2021, 10:18:20 pm »

6V @ 10amps is only 60watts so sounds under rated to me.

chas · « **Reply #4 on:** August 18, 2021, 11:13:26 pm »

The most likely cause is the battery . With a poor or undercharged 6 volt battery, the voltage can drop as more power is drawn from it. When that happens the power cuts off, the voltage rises and it starts again, then the cycle keeps repeating.
To check, put a volt meter on the battery whilst running it in the bath, or substitute a different battery, ideally a 7.2 volt one.
One more thing, I assume the prop isn't too big, a larger prop will demand more power from the battery than a smaller one, I would normally use a p35 prop with that set up. My own springer uses a similar set up, but a 7.2 volt pack, and draws about 4 amps.

malcolmfrary · « **Reply #5 on:** August 19, 2021, 09:02:02 am »

Looking at a spec claim for the Mtronics M500 motor, it is a moderately rated 540 (22 Watts). Even with too much prop, it shouldn't give trouble.
My vote is for a battery problem. With 6 volt SLA batteries, if one cell is not as good as the others, you get what looks like a good battery (volts OK) but as soon as it gets loaded, the poorly cell gives up causing the volts to drop. If the voltage drops to the point where any part of the electronics stops working, everything stops. After a bit of a rest, the battery voltage recovers, and things start working again until the load reappears.
Sort of similar effects can happen with poor connections, and as noted earlier, tightness in the drive line.

chas · « **Reply #6 on:** August 19, 2021, 10:08:11 am »

That's a good point with the motor, it's one of the low drain types, I hadn't noticed that. ThE op is using a 6 volt nimh pack, but exactly the same problem can, and often does happen. I'm a little surprised at running this motor on 6 volts, I can't imagine it will have much oomph in a springer, a higher voltage might be better, and the esc will handle the amps this motor draws easily.

Skrotiz · « **Reply #7 on:** August 19, 2021, 10:56:45 am »

As already mentioned the battery is most likely the cause of your problem.
The receiver runs on 5V supplied from your ESC and for the ESC to be able to supply stable 5V it should have at least 5,5V in, by using a 6V NiMh pack there are very small margins.
I would suggest changing the battery for either a 7,2V NiMh with alot of mAh(like 3000 or more) or use one or two sealed 6V lead battery as done in many springers.

If, and only IF your receiver is rated for 6V theres also the option to bypass the BEC in the ESC and feed the receiver directly from the battery when using 6V.
This can help and most receivers is rated for 6V but its best to check that first.

malcolmfrary · « **Reply #8 on:** August 19, 2021, 01:58:04 pm »

I missed the NiMH detail, but one sub-performing cell in the pack will do this as well. What size cells in the pack? C size should handle the current well, AA size less so. A partially charged cell in a pack will still show full voltage, but will discharge very quickly and stop providing current. It might even try to reverse charge, which drops the supply voltage even more.

Any ESC with a BEC inside it always has its BEC active in that even with the red lead disconnected, it still provides the 5 volts that the input side of the ESC wants. If the radio is to be supplied direct from a 6 volt battery, this wire is best disconnected under the "separate battery" rules.

Umi_Ryuzuki · « **Reply #9 on:** August 19, 2021, 07:00:03 pm »

You may just be over amping the 10 amp esc.Mtronik ESC have a "fuse" of sorts in their ESC.
If you draw more amps than designed for, then the ESC will pop the safety, and then reset after a few moments.
If you continually do this, you risk a fire. Use a higher rated ESC, I believe I have run springers on 15amp esc.
.

Skrotiz · « **Reply #10 on:** August 19, 2021, 07:34:08 pm »

What I meant was like you said malcolmfrary, to disconnect the red servo wire and feed the receiver directly from the 6V battery and this is to test if its the receiver that's shutting down due to low voltage.
I've had receivers shutting down before ESC in test rigs with bad wirings and this could be a similar problem.

leachim · « **Reply #11 on:** August 27, 2021, 03:06:11 pm »

I think my Springer is haunted!
I swapped out the 10amp ESC for a 20amp one (Mtroniks Marine 20 plug & play) with a fully charged battery pack all started ok. 5 minutes in and the boat started misbehaving. I lost forward motion, reverse just gave me full throttle forwards with full throttle forwards proving to be the engine stopped position. All connectors are ok, everything else in the boat operating as it should. It's as though the ESC reprogrammed its self while out on the water.

Anyone got any ideas what I can do now? I have a tug with a very similar setup that sailed all afternoon with no problem.

Flysky fs-i6 radio and flysky 6 channel receiver, 6v 3700mah NIMH battery pack driving Mtronics M500 motor through Viper Marine 20 ESC with BEC.

HMS Invisible · « **Reply #12 on:** August 27, 2021, 05:01:25 pm »

Quote from: leachim on August 27, 2021, 03:06:11 pm

I think my Springer is haunted!
I swapped out the 10amp ESC for a 20amp one (Mtroniks Marine 20 plug & play) with a fully charged battery pack all started ok. 5 minutes in and the boat started misbehaving. I lost forward motion, reverse just gave me full throttle forwards with full throttle forwards proving to be the engine stopped position. All connectors are ok, everything else in the boat operating as it should. It's as though the ESC reprogrammed its self while out on the water.

Anyone got any ideas what I can do now? I have a tug with a very similar setup that sailed all afternoon with no problem.

Flysky fs-i6 radio and flysky 6 channel receiver, 6v 3700mah NIMH battery pack driving Mtronics M500 motor through Viper Marine 20 ESC with BEC.

Like they keep telling you, it's the battery!
There is nothing wrong with it. It is just unsuitable with not enough power to keep the minimum voltage for long enough.
You hit the low voltage limit long before you have used up 3700mAh. If you don't keep pulse charging NimH the capacity falls off until you do so.
Compare the discharge graphs for Lipo, LiFePO4, NimH and you see the contrast.
The esc does indeed reprogram itself as it loses it's setting. The nerd term is "brown-out".
---------
*sp ~~looses~~ loses
** ~~with it but it.~~ with it.

chas · « **Reply #13 on:** August 27, 2021, 08:08:24 pm »

Did you actually try the very basic tests suggested, or did you just swap stuff without reason?
At the risk of repeating myself and many others, check the blooming battery. It's no use saying ' I charged it ' without knowing the voltage when the load has been on for 5 or 10 mins, i.e when it starts cutting out.
Be methodical, understand what's happening, and it will all begin to make sense.

Umi_Ryuzuki · « **Reply #14 on:** August 27, 2021, 09:59:13 pm »

The battery died,
The power came back up,
You were fiddling with the throttle,
The system rebooted,
you managed to move the throttle during the set up period as the ESC started up.
This reset the ESC zero point.
Try a different battery.?

leachim · « **Reply #15 on:** August 27, 2021, 10:52:40 pm »

Quote from: Umi_Ryuzuki on August 27, 2021, 09:59:13 pm

The battery died,
The power came back up,
You were fiddling with the throttle,
The system rebooted,
you managed to move the throttle during the set up period as the ESC started up.
This reset the ESC zero point.
Try a different battery.?

Thanks for this breakdown of possible events, this does make sense. What doesn't however is that the battery pack I was using is a different one to the one in the boat the other day (1 of 5 identical packs all numbered so I can keep track of which is which, all fully charged the day before). The battery that has been blamed for the boat playing up last time out powered my tug all afternoon with no problems.

chas · « **Reply #16 on:** August 27, 2021, 11:18:06 pm »

Your latest reply makes it clear that you haven't grasped the problem, or what's been explained. We're here to help, so may I suggest that you have a read through again, then ask questions, anything you like so that you can reach a solution. Your answer that all the batteries are the same makes it very very suspect to us, not the other way round as you might think.

To repeat myself yet again, do the checks suggested, the whole point of them is to verify or eliminate the most likely cause.

HMS Invisible · « **Reply #17 on:** August 28, 2021, 12:01:05 am »

Quote from: leachim on August 27, 2021, 10:52:40 pm

Thanks for this breakdown of possible events, this does make sense. What doesn't however is that the battery pack I was using is a different one to the one in the boat the other day (1 of 5 identical packs all numbered so I can keep track of which is which, all fully charged the day before). The battery that has been blamed for the boat playing up last time out powered my tug all afternoon with no problems.

Quote from: HMS Invisible on August 27, 2021, 05:01:25 pm

...There is nothing wrong with it. It is just unsuitable with not enough power to keep the minimum voltage for long enough....

This battery voltage monitor will start off PERFECT(green) then GOOD(orange) as you throttle up.
After minutes it will be down to LOW BATT (red) yet can still return to green as soon as you take the pedal off the accelerator.
The internal resistance of Lithium batteries are a fraction of NiMH so you barely register in the orange zone.

You need a six cell pack or go to lower resistance LiPO or LiFePO4 batteries. I can't say for certain if a dedicated Rx pack will help with your escs.

malcolmfrary · « **Reply #18 on:** August 28, 2021, 09:01:32 am »

One thing that I have noticed over the years, is that whenever I seem to get a bunch of dud batteries rather suddenly, I need to check out my battery charger.
I've never had a liking for "smart" chargers, as they always assume that everything else is perfect, and are thus easily fooled by a battery in a condition that they are not programmed to recognise. Any battery whose voltage comes up too rapidly is suspect, such as a 3.7AH battery showing its full voltage after 0.7AH has been offered. After a charge like that, it is, in fact, a 0.7AH battery.

CarlC · « **Reply #19 on:** August 29, 2021, 06:23:04 pm »

I had almost the identical issue powering a twin drive working boat.

I ended up putting a power analyser on it, and discovered that the two motors were drawing nearly 30 amps when I was at full throttle. The 3.2 nimh battery couldn't sustain that power output so caused the radio, esc and everything electrical to brown out.

A bit of investigation found that most (but not the very high end) nimh packs can only sustain a draw of 3x their capacity, so my 3200mah pack was okay in my other boats but topped out supplying 9.6 amps, well below the current draw I was asking it to do.

I replaced it with a 2S 5200 mah lipo with a 70 C rating that can easily handle the draw and all was sorted.

Hope this helps

Umi_Ryuzuki · « **Reply #20 on:** August 29, 2021, 07:05:47 pm »

I never powered a springer with more than a basic 500 series 27 turn motor. A lot of builders would
recommend a 55 turn motor or higher to get low amp draw, and low rpm for slow speed maneuvers.

Geoff · « **Reply #21 on:** August 31, 2021, 03:55:15 pm »

I think the fundamental problem with the original set up is that as you are using a BEC there needs to be a minimum voltage for this to work. by using a 6v battery during usage the voltage drops a bit and goes below 5 v temporarily and as a result the receiver automatically shuts the whole system down. The battery voltage then recovers after a minute and you can start again. It then repeats.

Fundamentally you need a minimum voltage difference between the main battery when using a BEC. Neither the motor or battery are at fault. As suggested if you up the battery voltage to 7.2v of thereabouts it will in all probability work fine.

If your motor is drawing lots of amps (it doesn't seem so) then as the battery is drained the voltage drops and as above. This is one of the reasons I never use a BEC in any of my models.

Good luck

Geoff

leachim · « **Reply #22 on:** August 31, 2021, 04:01:14 pm »

Quote from: Geoff on August 31, 2021, 03:55:15 pm

I think the fundamental problem with the original set up is that as you are using a BEC there needs to be a minimum voltage for this to work. by using a 6v battery during usage the voltage drops a bit and goes below 5 v temporarily and as a result the receiver automatically shuts the whole system down. The battery voltage then recovers after a minute and you can start again. It then repeats.

Fundamentally you need a minimum voltage difference between the main battery when using a BEC. Neither the motor or battery are at fault. As suggested if you up the battery voltage to 7.2v of thereabouts it will in all probability work fine.

If your motor is drawing lots of amps (it doesn't seem so) then as the battery is drained the voltage drops and as above. This is one of the reasons I never use a BEC in any of my models.

Good luck

Geoff

Thanks Geoff, that makes a lot of sense to me, and written in a way that I fully understand. I will try the setup with a receiver battery and see if that helps (Yes I will remove the red wire from the ESC connection to the receiver).

I still don't understand why it all works well in my tug and not in the springer unless the springer motor is pulling way more amps than the tug as I swapped the battery from the springer into my tug which worked faultlessly all afternoon.

Mike

HMS Invisible · « **Reply #23 on:** August 31, 2021, 06:51:48 pm »

Quote from: leachim on August 31, 2021, 04:01:14 pm

Thanks Geoff, that makes a lot of sense to me, and written in a way that I fully understand. I will try the setup with a receiver battery and see if that helps (Yes I will remove the red wire from the ESC connection to the receiver).

I still don't understand why it all works well in my tug and not in the springer unless the springer motor is pulling way more amps than the tug as I swapped the battery from the springer into my tug which worked faultlessly all afternoon.

Mike

It may well be that an Rx battery sorts things to your satisfaction but if it doesn't then bear in mind three points. If you don't understand you can ask for clarification.

According to page 20 of the FS-i6 user manual there is a receiver voltage alarm available.
Some of these 5 cell NiMH packs have a self resetting fuse in them. The absence or presence of an S.R.F. is an important predictor into the way it will behave in model boats.
There is no indication from your description or from the FS-i6 user manual that the receiver automatically shuts the whole system down.
There is a clear indication the escs were experiencing such a low voltage that the P'N'P esc assumed the power was momentarily switched off. This is nicknamed a brown-out.
This is important because if the removal of the rudder servo and receiver load doesn't tip the balance you are going to get the same results again.

Skrotiz · « **Reply #24 on:** August 31, 2021, 07:50:27 pm »

Just a little note regarding the BEC circuit.
Like already mentioned it needs a voltage above 5V to be able to supply 5V to the receiver, typically you would want to have a stable 6V to the ESC(that's where the BEC is built in) for it to be able to supply 5V out.

The receiver(making asumptions here) probably runs on 3,3V in the internal electronics but it will need a higher voltage than that for it to work(if not specified to work from 3,3V).
When feeding the receiver with 5V it transform it to 3,3V and everythings fine but if you have a voltage drop from the 6V battery and the BEC fails to supply 5V it might drop the voltage down fast and shut the receiver down completely.

Powering the receiver directly from the battery makes the system less sensitive since a voltage drop in the system for example drops to 4,5V and thats where the BEC will fail(and shuts down) but the receiver will most likely still work when supplied with 4,5V directly from the battery.

I hope I don't make things harder to understand and I belive running a separate receiver pack will sort out your problem as long as it is charged.

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Author Topic: Springer drive problems (Read 4926 times)