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[tonyH]

So you know how Bismark felt Sadly, I was blocked from the navy because I had hay-fever in the days when it was a no-no, so the only time with something properly fast was a day on an ASRL out of Acrotiri when I was on attachment to an RE unit.Going back to the thread, have you managed to have a glance at the WAVELL ROOM article by "Tom"  I noted on the reply to Nick. If you scroll down to other articles, there's one regarding Russian Naval Doctrine. It all seems to lead to a condemnation of the the big units, or at least that's my reading of the situation.If you do think about a China Cat or similar, this gives some gen on the tunnel form etc.  https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/chinacat.htm

[JimG]

Having done a bit of rereading of some of the posts one thing brought up several times was how easy it would be for carriers etc to outmanoever hypersonic missiles. No one brought up the one fault in this , carriers must spend quite a bit of time steering in a straight course into wind to launch and land their aircraft. With either over the horizon radar or real time spy satellites this would give enough time to predict the course and send very fast missiles to intercept the carrier who would not have the ability to change course in the very short time from detection.

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Having done a bit of rereading of some of the posts one thing brought up several times was how easy it would be for carriers etc to outmanoever hypersonic missiles. No one brought up the one fault in this , carriers must spend quite a bit of time steering in a straight course into wind to launch and land their aircraft. With either over the horizon radar or real time spy satellites this would give enough time to predict the course and send very fast missiles to intercept the carrier who would not have the ability to change course in the very short time from detection.

Which is why carriers do not sail alone, or without air cover. 

[tonyH]

Hi Umi, I've just had a quick google for "protection for aircraft carriers" There are plenty of American papers on the subject, one of the most hopeful being a 30 page pdf from the Lexington Institute. It was, however, from 2001. The later ones from 2019 or so, however, when the hypersonic missile is added to the equation, are more pragmatic/doubtful. You pays your money

[dodes]

Getting away from carriers, this country in the last two wars was very nearly defeated by submarine warfare, it took along time to get escorts built and into place. The situation has not changed we are still a net importer so how do we protect a fast convoy of container vessels doing 25 kts, frigates and destroyers are out of the question for being to slow, in that when they break off to hunt they will not rgain position and in heavy weather be left behind, but subs are 30 kts plus??????

[Colin Bishop]

This video provides an interesting summary of why the the USN Zumwalt class destroyer programme was curtailed. We might think that the UK has got problems but this shows that the USN cam do much worse!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evmXu3-VUek

Colin

[Colin Bishop]

And an overview of projected Type 26 Frigate capabilities here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX5VDLqFMs8

Colin

[tonyH]

Just going back to my reply to Umi a sec. The article from the Lexington Institute noted that Donald Rumsfeld was uncertain about protecting big carriers. So one of his "unknown unknowns" 

[dodes]

Has anyone seen the article on Edge about the recent in depth war game played in the USA concerning a invasion attempt by China against Taiwan, were the USA gets involved, quite interesting. Colin just seen the advertising blurb for the type 26, they seem well armed, my only comment is about the speed. Unless like the MoD usually does and down play the speed, they are somewhat slow, container ships maintain 25kts in all weathers and some are 30kts. Nuclear subs are over 35kts submerged(the old Dreadnought, was 36 hours from Gibraltar to Faslane A/S, submerged upto the Firth of Clyde), so the Merlin is the Key A/S weapon. Apart from that they are pretty vessels and I can see models of them being produced soon. 

[tonyH]

Just to add, one of the "pro" points from the early 2000s was the ability for a nuke carrier to sail at 30+knots continuously so ensuring that it would be almost impossible to pinpoint for targeting. If the screen can't do it as well, then...........
Looks like we'll have to stick to smaller models in future.

[Colin Bishop]

There are a lot of instances in WW2 when escorting vessels could not keep up with their escorted ship. Scharnhorst is an obvious example.

Colin

[dodes]

That was why the previous through deck cruisers where so useful, they had the speed and sufficient size to keep up with a convoy and use her helicopter's to hunt and a harrier to launch air to ship missiles, so much more useful than destroyers and small frigates. The RN learnt this lesson towards the end of ww2, the present CC are too big and valuable to be used on these duties.

[Colin Bishop]

Here is the trailer for the forthcoming BBC series on HMS QE's 2021 Far Eastern deployment. 6 part series starting on 22nd January.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXg9QSdf79k

Colin