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[tonyH]

This is the pointy end of the current project and since I'm building to a 1/72 scale I would need to detail as much as poss. Could anyone help with (a) advice on what the tops of the exhaust "boxes" to port and starboard would look like and (b) what the two items marked CP, next to the forward stairs, could be?
Cheers
TonyH

[John W E]

Chain pipe possibly? to the  Chain room? for the anchors???

[Colin Bishop]

Snap John! Yes, Chain Pipe. Posiition should show up on the plan of the foredeck if you have it Tony.

The exhausts may simply be the deck edge vents. In later years these would be gooseneck vents but I have a photo of the  1904 TSS Londonderry model that was in the Science Museum and her deck edge vents seem to be vertical ones.

Colin

[tonyH]

Excellent Gentlemen! That was, of course "your starter for 10!" 'cos there are bound to be dozens more before I get to the end  
Tony

[1967Brutus]

I have never seen those pipes being referred to as "chain pipes"... Usually they are called "Hawse Pipes" or "chain leads".

To me, the pic is a bit unclear, and I do not know whether that is a plan of the forecastle upper deck.
But if so, I would have expected to see a location of the anchor winch near to the chainleads, not the location of the toilets and stairs.
So this looks to me like the drawing of a tweendeck or something. Meaning: nothing you see on this drawing would be visible on a model representing the externals of a ship.
So I am a bit unsure why this drawing is in use for model building?

[Colin Bishop]

Brutus, this is clearly a representation of the main deck of the vessel (top of the hull). The forecastle deck is above that and this would show the position of the anchoring gear and above deck fittings etc. The hawse pipes are where the anchors exit the bow on the outside of the ship. The position of the chain pipes is obviously aft of the windlass where they drop down into the chain locker.

Yes, it would indeed be useful to view the plan of the foredeck but maybe Tony doesn't have it.

Re your final comment, I am currently building a Victorian Liner and visited the National Maritime Museum plan collections at Woolwich to look at  and photograph the builder's plans. Obviously the most important views on the drawings are of the external weather decks, but being able to view the internal layout of the ship has saved me from making some serious mistakes that would not have been apparent from the degree of detail shown on the external plan and elevation drawings. It also allowed me to clarify discrepancies between the plans and the actual ship build.

Colin

[Colin Bishop]

Just as an additional comment. Back in the early years of the 1900s the naval architect would design the ship with details of the construction and steelwork specifications etc. but when it came to fittings such as lifeboats, winches and all sorts of other items, these would often just be sketched in and the shipbuilder would buy them 'off the shelf' from various specialist suppliers. There would often be a choice of fittings and it was pot luck what was actually installed on the vessel. Unless you have contemporary photos you  don't really know what pattern of steam winch might have been fitted for example. I have found quite a few instances on this with my liner model where the drawings, builder's model and photographic evidence contradict each other. On my liner example the builder's model has some clear differences to what was fitted on the actual ship. It was all 120 or so years ago and building a definitive model in terms of the finer detail is impossible after all this time. Even the original drawings of my liner have pencilled in alterations and notes so it was all a bit of a moving feast during construction and the builders did make various changes along the way.

The upside is that whatever interpretation you choose for your model, nobody can prove you wrong!

Colin

[rodders67]

As an apprentice electrician in the 1960s I worked in the electrical drawing office of Harland & Wolff in Belfast.  I would be sent on a ships trials  to complete what were referred to as "as fitted drawings". This involved discussions with the chargehands of various departments to make a note of changes made to asssit their work.  I would then ammend the various drawings when back in the drawing office. It's a long time ago and I don't know if similiar drawings were prepared by the ship building drawing office or not.Rodney

[Colin Bishop]

Interesting, but how much detail did you go into? On Tony's plan it is evident that there were deck edge exhaust vents serving various compartments but there is no indication (on that drawing) what the above deck termination fitting was or how it discouraged water from getting below as a gooseneck vent does. If the plan doesn't show it then there is no way of recovering the specific information. In this case the model of Londonderry of similar vintage indicates what it might have looked like!

The drawings of my liner ss Miltiades at the NMM were limited to the original lines and body plan and all deck plans of the vessel as built. Ten years after entering service the ship was cut in half ahead of the machinery spaces and a new section inserted. The original machinery was retained. The NMM has an profile drawing of the ship as lengthened and it is evident where the new section was inserted due to the frame numbers. This meant that the bow, most of the midship and stern sections were probably still as originally built which was very useful. However it did introduce a discrepancy whereby the supposedly unchanged large engine room skylight was a different design on the original drawings, builders model and as lengthened drawings! No idea which one is right as there are no photos.

I have  read accounts of shipbuilding before WW2 whereby the shipwrights would leave circular holes in the deck beams and it was then a free for all between the various trades who competed to fit their pipes, cables etc. into the most favourable runs when the ship was fitting out. After entering service, the ship would have its own set of plans based on the originals for maintenance purposes and no doubt they would be updated as needed but the changes not necessarily replicated on the shipyard plans.

It just goes to show that a set of plans is only a starting point and before the days when photography became common it can be very difficult to definitively establish true accuracy, you just have to go with what you consider to be the most likely option, confident that no one is ever going to be able to prove you wrong!

Colin

[tonyH]

I realised late last night that I'd committed the cardinal sin of considering a single item and not the system as a whole! So.....MEA CULPA and slapped wrist etc. Of course I had the plan for the forecastle so there are the goosenecks and just visible are the upper chain pipeholes, just under the winch sheaves   I've a fair number of the drawings, courtesy of Glasgow Uni, but there's a mix of line drawings and detail plans and elevations but I'm having to make a number of decisions as to how she was in 1941 when she was bombed.Anyhow, many thanks indeed for the guidance as always.
Tony

[Colin Bishop]

Excellent quality plan Tony, you seem to have more to work with than me but my model is 1:150 so I don't need to show so much detail.

Colin