Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length.

[Martin (Admin)]

The thread that follows started off as a question regarding a particular steam engine manufacturer that degenerated into inappropriate arguments.

The thread has been modified to remove the names of the manufacturers concerned and to enable the usefull legal advice and links to remain as a resource for anyone having issues with a vendor or manufacturer.

[bbdave]

Hi just thought i'd say after initial eagerness to get my model finished i visited the mayhem weekend where i thought i'd be able to find out alot more info and maybe speak to some helpfull people but found the complete opposite i tried asking about my plant but no one was much interested i basicly got the impression that because it's not a chedder we're not interested and people screwed there faces up when i mentioned maxwell hemmens. i did meet a alot of helpfull people but on other matters but very dissapointed on the steam front this is the first time i've been on the forum since now i've put the plant away again i'm going to building sail from now on a much more friendly bunch.

[Bunkerbarge]

Hi just thought i'd say after initial eagerness to get my model finished i visited the mayhem weekend where i thought i'd be able to find out alot more info and maybe speak to some helpfull people but found the complete opposite i tried asking about my plant but no one was much interested i basicly got the impression that because it's not a chedder we're not interested and people screwed there faces up when i mentioned maxwell hemmens. i did meet a alot of helpfull people but on other matters but very dissapointed on the steam front this is the first time i've been on the forum since now i've put the plant away again i'm going to building sail from now on a much more friendly bunch.

bbdave, obviously many of us would be dissapointed to hear of your circumstances and Ithink it is a great shame that you went to an event hoping for guidance and didn't get what you were after.  It is wrong thought to think that all modellers involved with the steam world are the same, you may well find the same response to questions regarding sailing models at another event so to me the problem lies with the individuals who did not help rather than the area of modelling.  My club consists of sail members, steam model members as well as fast electrics and scale and we all strive to help new comers wherever possible.  

Giving up on steam models as a result of one bad experience is a great shame and you are going to miss out on one of the most rewarding aspects of model boating so I would hang in there and keep trying to find the answers to your questions.  When I first started playing with steam I felt a bit on my own but eventually I worked things out for myself and developed some contacts who had the time and patience to help me out.

As it happens my own plant is a Hemmens one and whereas some aspects have not been perfect, I have had some very sucessfull trials with the model and I am very confident the the plant will dork well in my model for many years to come.  

No matter which engine you talk about you will always find people prepared to critisise, unfortunately all to frequently as a result of self inflicted issues caused by inexperienced modellers, but you will also always have to look around until you find people who are experienced enought to discus your own plant objectively and honestly.

My Richmond engine had one significant flaw which I have since resolved myself but, from what I can see of your Max II you shouldn't have the same issue as it is built differently.  Having said that the Richmond is an extreemly powerfull little engine and is very compact and lightweight for it's power making it suitable for a lot of model installations.

If you have any questions please feel free to post them and I'm sure there will be someone here who can help.

[bbdave]

Hi thanks for the encouragment BB i have been unable to get on the net for a while due to major pc problems but now back on the steam project is just on backburner for now excuse the pun as i'm in the process of building a sailing model so should get round to it soon.

[Bunkerbarge]

Any questions do not hestitate to ask.

[Martin (Admin)]

Hi
I purchased a Marine Steam plant in 2006.  When the plant arrived I put it on bench test as instructed.  It failed measurably, the boiler was incapable of supplying enough steam to the engine, the gas cylinder had a leak ( very dangerase) the engine itself leaked very badly.
I was told that it had been tested???  I returned the unit for repair only to have it sent back in the same order.  So I complained and the unit went back to the manufacturer again,  I still have not had it returned.  I asked for my money back.  I was told to go away but not in those words.
I still have not had my money or my engine returned.  I thought I would take out a county court action to retrieve my good or money but apparently this particular manufacturer has had many court actions against him and never pays up.  That is probably the reason for the name change.
Can anyone suggest how I can get my money back please?

[Bunkerbarge]

First of all you need to write him a letter, stating exactly what your complaint is and what you expect him to do about it. 

Include a reasonable time frame of say two weeks and send it recorded delivery.  He has to sign for it then and cannot say that he has not recieved it.  After the two weeks is up you may have to send another one stipulating an ultimatum and a deadline.  Once again sent it recorded.

If he fails to rerspond to these you can then ask your Office of Fair Trading to become involved on your behalf or you could go straight to a small claims court.  This will cost you to persue and may not prove to be cost effective.

You may well recieve your engine back (the most likely direction this will take), once again in the same condition, in which case you will then need to obtain a written report from a "Expert" third party.  I would suggest an alternative steam engine manufacturer would be a good place to start.  They will have to produce a written report of the condition of the engine, listing it's faults, and stating that it is not fit for the purpose for which it was sold.  Pay by cheque or credit card for this report and keep the invoice and the reciept.  Do not get one done by a friend or by someone who has no credibility to write the report.

All this is time consuming and most things are stacked against you but persevere and you might get a satisfactory conclusion.

There are also ways around any of the faults that you may find with a steam plant but you must also be aware that any steam plant is going to require a degree of input from the owner as regards maintenance and modifications. 

Non of them will run perfectly from the box, you will have to run them in carefully first and make sure that any leaks are dealt with.  There is a fault with some particular engines in so far as they leak badly at the control valve disc face which can be modified but you need access to the right machining facilities.

Let us know how you get on as we will be able to offer help and advice along the way.

[boatman126]

Thank you so much Bunkerbarge for your advice.
At the time of the problem (2006) I did write to the manufacturer twice (with recorded delivery)as recommended by my solicitor.
His reply I am afraid was not printable.
So I decided to pursue my problem through the small claims court as you suggest.  Before I did this I ran a check to see if he would be likely to pay up.  The form showed me, that would be highly unlikely!!
I am down £800.00 plus costs at the moment. 
I would like to have MY engine plant back in any condition at least then I have something to show for my money.
I have since been able to buy alternative steam plants from another supplier and they are FANTASTIC and work 100% from day one.
I have had many steam plants in the past from different suppliers so I know how to solve faults,leaks etc.  But I am not prepared to carry out rebuild works on a brand new plant that should be sold tested and fault free.

[Bunkerbarge]

It would appear you have no alternative than to chase this issue through a small claims court.

Very unfortunate and obviously dissapointing.  Interestingly enough this manufacturer is actually a member here so he obviously reads posts such as yours and he might decide that rather than have you asking for advice on such an issue it may be in his best interest to offer a satisfactory conclusion.

I wish you well.

[DickyD]

That posting justifies staying with electric motors I think.  ::) ::)

[Bunkerbarge]

Which bit Richard, the fact that steam plant operation would appear to be complicted or the fact that professionals in the business appear to be quite abusive with customers.

When I once had an altercation with a vendor of a steam engine who took the balance of payment from my credit card without even informing me he had done so my lengthy and extreemly annoyed tirade was met with a "I think you need to relax and have a Coffee Mr S" 

[MONAHAN STEAM MODELS]

Steam plants can be a little fussy to get to run correctly at times, but this usually can be remedied by simple adjusting or performing simple maintenance. Most manufacturers are more than willing to spend the time helping their patrons. Cheddar Models was a great company for more than one reason. I've never heard anything negative said about their service nor their products!

Steam models can be a bit more complicated than electric models, but tend to be extremely rewarding to operate when set up and maintained properly. Looking on the positive side of things, as with any new endeavor, you will run across small road bumps, but these usually can help steam plant owners become more familiar with the way their models operate, thus winning them experience through perseverance that will help them trouble shoot or better yet avoid similar problems in the future.

Prospective steam model enthusiasts should not be disenchanted from exploring this rewarding hobby by reading some of the negative points mentioned in this thread but view these points as some modelers unfortunate experiences. The positives of live steam models far out weigh the negatives and for this reason the hobby has both been around for so long and remains to grow in interest.

This is a great model boat forum with a great community of members who are more than happy to lend a hand to anyone who needs it. We are lucky to have administrators/moderators who are willing to spend their personal time hosting this forum for all of us to enjoy.  :)

[anmo]

I've heard stories like the one that started this outburst so many times, lovely looking steam engine that just doesn't work, usually due to basic design faults, send it back, and it's returned no better, send it back again and xxxxx just keeps it and won't give a refund. I know of two case going through the small claims process at the moment, apart from this one. I've currently got six or seven steam plants, all either Cheddar or SVS. I started out knowing very little, but followed the advice that Cheddar and SVS gave me, which was mainly to keep everything well lubricated, and I've never had a single problem of any kind with any of them, probably because both Cheddar and SVS knew exactly what they were doing and didn't incorporate inappropriate materials or basic design faults in their engines. There isn't even a smidgeon of 'Rocket Science' to making and operating model steam plants, never has been, it's all just basic common sense engineering, though basic common sense after sales service is always a welcome bonus.

[boatman126]

I agree with you totally ANMO. It is such a shame that people spend their well earned money on something that does not work correctly.  It is good for me to hear I have the backing of others and that I am not the only person with this problem.  It is as you say the small claims court is not designed for dishonest people.

[ROSYTH]

How long do these issues take to get sorted out in the SC Court these days?

Cliff

[boatman126]

They are dealt with in good time but only if the person with the judgment against them ever pays up.  Which is the problem as they cannot be forced to.

[anmo]

This may help and it might give anyone with a genuine grievance a few ideas. Many years ago I was working part time as a self employed photographer, and a film processing company destroyed one of my films, wouldn't you know it, something really important and irreplaceable. The film processor tried to rely on the small print in his terms and conditions, 'no liability accepted beyond the cost of the materials'. I won't go into details, but because the utter ineptitude he'd exercised in destroying my film, I took him to the local Small Claims Court. I live in Dorset, and film man was in Burton on Trent, but because I'd made a contract when I mailed the film to him, the case was heard in Poole. The MD of the film company turned up on the appointed day, all cocky smiles accompanied by his secretary, telling me I hadn't a hope in hell, and he was going to claim for all his expenses. The case was heard by a Registrar, which I think is somewhere between a magistrate and a County Court judge. It was all very informal, I told the Registrar what had happened, the Film MD tried to bluster it out, but the Registrar told him it was one of the worst cases of negligence he'd ever heard, and gave me judgement for the full amount claimed which was about £800, and this was around 15 years ago. This wiped the grin of the film man's face, but he told me that he wasn't going to cough up. The film processors used to advertise in a professional photographers' magazine. After writing the usual letters giving him 14 days to pay etc, I didn't bother with bailiffs but phoned the magazine's editor. He was very sympathetic and told me he'd do what he could. About a week later, a cheque arrived for the full amount, accompanied by a compliments slip, apparently editor had told them that unless they paid up, they'd have to find somewhere new to advertise, so maybe a similar approach might work in your case boatman126.

[ROSYTH]

It sounds as though they can be long drawn out affairs with no guarantee of a good end result. I can't figure out why they have the process of taking someone to
the SC Court then after all the stress and delay, one wins the judgement only for them to grin away and not pay anything! Its a typical farce that only solicitors etc win
I think.
There must be another way around the situation surely? there has to be as it involves quite a lot of hard earned money and again it is something one may only
purchase either once for a project or twice to add to one's collection.
We will have to put on thinking caps chaps and try to solve the problem, it may just happen to one of us one day and I for one would like to know I could get some
advice and help in the community.

If I come across any information I will off course post it for viewing ok.
Cliff

[anmo]

It sounds as though they can be long drawn out affairs with no guarantee of a good end result. I can't figure out why they have the process of taking someone to the SC Court then after all the stress and delay, one wins the judgement only for them to grin away and not pay anything! Its a typical farce that only solicitors etc win

There's not much that I can add to my earlier post. The whole point of the Small Claims system is that essentially it's DIY, you have to do a lot of the work yourself, but a judgement in your favour puts a powerful weapon in your hands. In the case I described, I had to fill out all the forms from an info booklet that they gave me, but I found the SC office staff very helpful in telling me how to word my claim etc. And today of course, you have Google and the internet to help you do and say the right things. As far as I can remember, my costs apart from a few hours of my time were something under £50, this was about 15 years ago of course, but I don't think the amounts involved have increased all that much. Given the circumstances outlined, I know exactly what I'd to, read the last two or three lines of my previous post again. Also, no solicitors are involved unless you want to pay them to do something you can easily do yourself, and normally the other side can't claim costs from you.

[Roger in France]

One of the procedural rules of the Small Claims Court is that neither party can be represented by a lawyer, you must appear on your own behalf.

When dealing with problems it is also worth remembering that the Consumer Credit Act which controls ( among other things) credit cards, imposes "equal liability" on the credit card company when you buy a faulty product or service using the card. So, it is worth contacting you credit card company as they will usually refund you and then persue the other party.

Roger in France.

[ROSYTH]

Thanks anmo & Roger, I was never aware of that. No Sols/Lawyers involved. One learns something new everyday. Having never been through the
procedures it is good to know others have and can pass on there information and help, so Thank you for that, both of you.

Cliff

[Bunkerbarge]

Dont worry BBDave, there are some subjects guarranteed to generate some enthusiastic debates and you just happened to have hit on one of them.

I'm glad your plant is working OK and you are pleased with it all you need to do now is get it into a boat and get it on the water!!

[anmo]

One of the procedural rules of the Small Claims Court is that neither party can be represented by a lawyer, you must appear on your own behalf.

Roger in France.

You're right of course, but for the benefit of anyone reading this thread who hasn't experienced the Small Claims system for themselves, what I meant when I referred to legal advice, was in preparing for the hearing and advice about the claim generally, not during it. As Roger says, you aren't allowed to have legal representation at the hearing. I found the information booklet they gave me at the outset perfectly adequate, and a very much firmer line on customer credit has meant that I haven't troubled the Small Claims system recently, but I doubt if things have changed much. I found everything quite easy, fairly informal, and every allowance was made for inexperience of the system. We all sat round a large table, I told the Registrar what had happened, and presented documentary evidence. The 'other side' stated his case, the Registrar asked a few questions, and made his decision there and then, and since he found in my favour, I have to say that I think the system is an excellent one. It isn't altogether surprising to me that this thread has developed into one on fairly elementary legal advice, but I hope some are finding this helpful.

[Colin Bishop]

Having got a ruling in your favour, just what are the enforcement options available to you and to what extent will you have the support of the law in doing so?

[boatman126]

I was told by the CAB that there are very few ways to force payment, the ones which are available just incur further costs with no garrantee of getting your money back.  You could have a situation which allows him to make very small monthly payments, but that would take a lifetime.