Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length.

[tobyker]

Fascinating stuff, etymology. I think a sloop used to be a single masted fore and aft rigged boat, (hence sloop rigged) but  wasn't it also a small warship in Nelson's day, used to carry despatches and stuff ?  "Sloop" could also be derived from "Shallop" - one of the earliest types of small boat (see Chapman), and there's also a dutch schloep (or something like that).  A cutter is a type of Naval ship's boat - were they used for "cutting-out" expeditions? CS Forester, "Flying Colours" - Hornblower comes home in HM armed 10-gun cutter, Witch of Endor. but that would be far too big for a ship's boat. And of course "cutter rig" has two foresails (one's a jib) and one main fore and aft sail. But I don't know if the small naval cutters were cutter rigged - I suspect not as you need a bowsprit to make it work properly.

"Vessel" - now there's a useful word!

[Bryan Young]

Fascinating stuff, etymology. I think a sloop used to be a single masted fore and aft rigged boat, (hence sloop rigged) but  wasn't it also a small warship in Nelson's day, used to carry despatches and stuff ?  "Sloop" could also be derived from "Shallop" - one of the earliest types of small boat (see Chapman), and there's also a dutch schloep (or something like that).  A cutter is a type of Naval ship's boat - were they used for "cutting-out" expeditions? CS Forester, "Flying Colours" - Hornblower comes home in HM armed 10-gun cutter, Witch of Endor. but that would be far too big for a ship's boat. And of course "cutter rig" has two foresails (one's a jib) and one main fore and aft sail. But I don't know if the small naval cutters were cutter rigged - I suspect not as you need a bowsprit to make it work properly.

"Vessel" - now there's a useful word!

Now that is what I call an answer. I reckon you have it nailed there Toby. I didn,t really like the "speed" definition, but yours makes a lot of sense.

[Bryan Young]

Let us begin with "vessel" as a noun. Meaning a container for whatever. Even a 500,000 ton tanker is really just a "container", which in turn means it (the vessel) "contains" whatever is inside it.

[Bunkerbarge]

Don't forget though that a "Cutter" could just as easily be motorised by steam or diesel.  i.e. didn't WWII Battleships all had motor cutters?

Check these out:


http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=990DE3DE1F3DE433A25757C0A9639C94699ED7CF&oref=slogin

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9500E0DB1E3DE433A2575AC2A9649D94649ED7CF

and as for this:

http://www.warsailors.com/homefleet/shipsu.html

It would appear there is also a Fishing Cutter.

The plot thickens!!


I think the sailing day definition has now been lost in the mists of time.

[malcolmfrary]

There was a "Ships of the Old Navy" website dealing with the Royal Navy through Napoleonic times which disappeared last year.  However, it has been resurrected at
http://www.ageofnelson.org/MichaelPhillips/index.html
Looking at the stories of the ships you realise that back then, there were a great many classifications of ship vessel, and a relaxed outlook on the spelling of them.  You also get a glimpse at the careers of some of the officers where they are named, and some of them make Hornblower and Bolitho look quite tame.
Well worth a look.

[ashgarth]

 I FOUND THIS TODAY ABOUT BRASS MONKEYS

It was necessary to keep a good supply of cannon balls near the cannon  on old war ships. But how to prevent them from rolling about the deck was the problem. The best storage method devised was to stack them as a square based pyramid, with one ball on top, resting on four, resting on nine, which rested on sixteen.Thus, a supply of 30 cannon balls could be stacked in a small area right next to the cannon. There was only one problem -- how to prevent the bottom layer from sliding/rolling from under the others.The solution was a metal plate with 16 round indentations, called, for reasons unknown, a  Monkey. But if this plate were made of iron, the iron balls would quickly rust to it. The solution to the rusting problem was to make them of brass - hence, Brass Monkeys. Few landlubbers realize that brass contracts much more and much faster than iron when chilled.  Consequently, when the temperature dropped too far, the brass indentations would shrink so much that the iron cannon balls would come right off the monkey.Thus, it was quite literally, cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey And all this time, you thought that was just a vulgar expression, didn't you? You must send this fabulous bit of historical knowledge to at least a few uneducated friends. 

[BarryM]

Only problem is that it's all historical hooey. Cannon balls were kept in shot racks and not within metal rings in stacks which would quickly collapse with the movement of the ship. Do a search on this forum and you'll find it covered elesewhere.
Sorry,

Barry M

[Bunkerbarge]

I always thought the expression was related to the three brass monkeys, hear no evil, see no evil and speak no evil.  I'm not sure of any more detail than that but I'm just about to have a look!!

[Bunkerbarge]

Here's a bit more on the subject:

http://www.snopes.com/language/stories/brass.asp

[Edward Pinniger]

Don't forget though that a "Cutter" could just as easily be motorised by steam or diesel.  i.e. didn't WWII Battleships all had motor cutters?

Also, all US Coast Guard vessels (with the exception of lifeboats, I think), from small patrol boats up to frigate-sized warships, are referred to as "cutters". I assume this dates from the days of the US Revenue Service (predecessor of the USCG) in the early 1800s, who presumably used cutter-rigged sailing ships much like those used by the British revenue service.
And in a number of European languages (including German and Russian, I think) "cutter" refers to any small motor boat. For example, the Russian WW2 "Bronekater" (river gunboats with tank turrets) literally means "armoured motorboat"; the German armed fishing boats were "Kriegsfischkutters"

[TCC]

Can someone help me?

If one is talking about the top mast on the main mast, how does one say it? Does one say 'they remved the top mast of the main' or '.. removed the top mast of the main mast' or '... the main top mast'?

[Canalpilot]

A cutter was originally a small fast boat propelled by either oars or sail, or both, carried by ships of the line, used for cutting out smaller vessels or stragglers of an enemy fleet, hence 'cutters'.  They usually had a small swivel cannon mounted on the bow. 

[BarryM]

Can someone help me?

If one is talking about the top mast on the main mast, how does one say it? Does one say 'they remved the top mast of the main' or '.. removed the top mast of the main mast' or '... the main top mast'?

main topmast gets my vote.

Barry M

[TCC]

Can someone help me?

If one is talking about the top mast on the main mast, how does one say it? Does one say 'they remved the top mast of the main' or '.. removed the top mast of the main mast' or '... the main top mast'?

main topmast gets my vote.

Barry M

Yes... it does sound right. I just hope everyone else know what I'm talking about if I use it.