Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Submarines => Topic started by: colin-stevens on July 19, 2006, 09:04:10 pm
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been at this for about a year now. the originall plans were sent to me by someone on Sub Committee, soory no idea who, computer crashed and the back up disk was corrupted, luv em dont you just? put the plans into auto cad as a rasta then traced over it to get the frames. these were then pasted onto balsa, cut out and glued to the keel. these were then covered in thin balsa and covered in cloth and resin. the centre section is drain pipe, the diameter of which set the scale. the fore and aft section were then gled to this and more cloth and resin applied to get a strong joint. the lower section is water pipe glued to the bottom, and then thin ply yet again glued to to the drain pipe and water pipe to form the waisting(?) the conning tower is just plastic card formed round templates. easy, not.the three parts were a nightmare to keep level,straight and aligned in all dimension, lots of figs and heart ache before the final fix and boy did i need one.the big hold up at the moment is the kortz nozzle. just waiting for the Robbe 50mm to come in and hoping that it will do.no idea how to sink her, or rather i do, just not sure how to bring her back up again. bit vital in a sub. the silicon i have used for the radio box has still not set, after 3 long days. lifted the lid after a day and wrecked the nice level bead i planned. not goin to well so far. when she has some paint on her i will put on more piccies.
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I have seen this model before?...Ermm...it was at Black Park a little while back! The chap who had it done a fantastic build+paint job. From what i saw of it, it ran like a dream!!! He could very well be a Black Park member, speak to Gary the Black Park Chairman, and he might be able to put you in contact with the guy. (Gary is a member of this forum)
Voyager.
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i tihnk the model to which you refer is dave wrights seehund.... i dont think this is the the one and the same model but they are very similar.......
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certainly was not mine. amazing is not a word that i will use yet, maybe never. i will try to get in touch with him. his could have been OTW's. very nice but slightly bigger than mine. could well be more accurate as well seeing as i lost sight of the scale. first for menormally quite annal about things like that.
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I used to leave my silicone seals at least a weeks to cure fully, especially if you have laid it on thick. I think an RCABs type ballast system will be simplest system to install in that hull. Its doest seem like you have much volume of material above the waterline so you won't need to displace too much water to submerge.
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There were a lot of men died in the real ones, they were virtually a one way ticket machine..
Roy
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pla=eeeeeese define RCAB cos i'm thick. been looking at the subtech site. need tubes and shafts, found tubes but no shafts and two set of pumps. planning on pumping in water to sink her, and out again to surface. oh it sounds so simple. especialy if i use there "T" valve. cant get my head around how to fit it, guess it will make more sense when i get it.also how the heck do i stop water getting into the radio box? planing on using the engel TEA ballast switch unit as it has water detector cct to blow the ballast tank. i know this works cos i used in a sub i built for someone else, it leaked and the thing came back to the surface.but all i want is to stop water getting into the radio box. hope this makes sense. or to cut this down to one short sentence, explain in words of one sylable how the **** do i do it? i have been thinking about it for so long i have confused my self, not hard.
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am i right in thinking you are planning to use 2 pumps, one to pump in and one to pump out ?- if so why not cut down to one pump and use a peristaltic pump ?
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pla=eeeeeese define RCAB cos i'm thick. been looking at the subtech site. need tubes and shafts, found tubes but no shafts and two set of pumps. planning on pumping in water to sink her, and out again to surface. oh it sounds so simple. especialy if i use there "T" valve. cant get my head around how to fit it, guess it will make more sense when i get it.also how the heck do i stop water getting into the radio box? planing on using the engel TEA ballast switch unit as it has water detector cct to blow the ballast tank. i know this works cos i used in a sub i built for someone else, it leaked and the thing came back to the surface.but all i want is to stop water getting into the radio box. hope this makes sense. or to cut this down to one short sentence, explain in words of one sylable how the **** do i do it? i have been thinking about it for so long i have confused my self, not hard.
Hi Colin,
The first thing you need to work out is you want you ballast tank within the pressure hull or if you want it out side the pressure area. Depending on the size and shape of the pressure hull either may be possible.
If you want the have it within the pressure hull, the easiest way would be to use a rubber bag from a pressure cuff as a ballast bag that you pump water in and out of. A peristaltic pump is ideal or a reversible water pump. Place the rubber bag inside a cylindrical acrylic tube that will define the maximum size of the inflated ballast bag. This will give you a consistant max ballast point to set your neutral buoyany and also limit the expansion of the rubber bag so you can't overfil and burst it. The other way is to fit some sort of pressure switch that will switch off the pump at the right time.
If your ballast tank is outside the pressure hull then your have to pump air into it surface and remove air to dive. In RCABS, you use a oneway air pump to pump air(from the pressure hull) back into the bag, thereby creating a small vacuum in the pressure hull. To dive, you release air from the inflated bag via a valve (bicycle tire valve will do) into the pressure hull. As the pressure hull is under vacuum conditions, air will simply flow from the inflated bag back into the pressure hull without having to be pumped. A battery operated blood pressure machine (plenty of cheap new ones on eBay) are a good source for the air pump and bag.
The Engel ballast switch does not have a water detactor. It does have a loss of over pressure detctor. In a piston tank operated boat, you create an over pressure as you operate the tanks. If you have a leak this over presuure is neutalised. If there is a leak, the Engel switch detects that there is no overpressure being produced when the tanks are operated and presumes there must be a leak and blows the piston tank. Subtech sell loss of signal fail safe with a built in water dector.
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thanks for that. however the engel swith unit i used did have two terminals where you fixed a lentgh of wire. if water got in it created a cct and operated the ballast tank bringing her up. i had one or two occassions where i didnt tighten up the sealing screw, water got weeped in and up she came.
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thanks for that. however the engel swith unit i used did have two terminals where you fixed a lentgh of wire. if water got in it created a cct and operated the ballast tank bringing her up. i had one or two occassions where i didnt tighten up the sealing screw, water got weeped in and up she came.
Sounds you sacrificed the max depth sensor an pressure switch (1.8m?) that comes with the TAE unit and used those two wire as a water sensor? Nice mod!
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not that new, did it last year. cant remember which unit it was though. did think it was standard. if i decide to use the engel switch i will make sure, so thanks for the heads up.
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not that new, did it last year. cant remember which unit it was though. did think it was standard. if i decide to use the engel switch i will make sure, so thanks for the heads up.
The BTS2 and TAE switches come with 2 terminals to connect onto the depth sensor. Closing this circuit will blow the ballast.
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if i remeber correctly the instructions suggested conecting it this way, cant lay claim to the mod. i aint that clever.
keep the hints coming.
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.... Colin, can't find that norbett brugen site - can you type out the full link perhaps and I'll check it out.... I'm still non the wiser, but keener than ever on getting a working sub!
Cheers
Brian
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... Colin, I must have found the site you suggested after all (Norbert Bruggen) as I got an e-mail and enclosure with prices for the Revell VIIc conversion this morning from him... so thanks for that.
If anyone wants a copy I can e-mail it... let me know.
Cheers
Brian
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he does some other models as well. got my eye on the DELTA. different.
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... I really like that Austrian sub (UB1) - its very reminiscent of the John Biggins' book 'A sailor of Austria' - if you haven't read that (and the other 2 or 3 books in the series) you really haven't lived, they really are very special books!
Cheers
Brian
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... I really like that Austrian sub (UB1) - its very reminiscent of the John Biggins' book 'A sailor of Austria' - if you haven't read that (and the other 2 or 3 books in the series) you really haven't lived, they really are very special books!
Cheers Brian
Couldn't agree more, for years I thought I was the only person who'd read 'A Sailor of Austria', and now I've found a second one. Apart from being about a different country, a different war, a different sea and being set about twenty years earlier, it's Das Boot - the novel. If you liked the film, you'll love this book.
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Yes, I read it a while back too - very good.
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got me dirty mits on a nozzle. not realy wot i wanted but its all i could get. never got an answer from the two suppliers i had reckomended, so settle for the Robbe 50mm. found the leaks in the radio box, thats tight now!!!!!!!!! fingers crossed, and am now making a mould for a silicon seal a mate is going to pour for me. then i can find out wether i have made the ballast tank big enough.
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I have really nice working model of ub1, this is one of norberts boats, it really does run well, Pete
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.... looks good - thanks for that.
I think I'm gonna have to go for the Revell kit as a starter for ten - and then who knows after that if it goes OK?
Cheers, Brian
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.... come to think of it, which system is the best one to go for, for the Revell VIIc kit - Norbert's or Big Dave's??
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.... I've just ordered Norbert's book 'Model Submarine Technology MST2 - £14.95' On-line from Traplet Publications.
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he does some other models as well. got my eye on the DELTA. different.
its makes up to be an awesome model, check out francis 's delta which is on the main mayhem site( under your models) , i have had alot of dealing with this sub his is expertly put together including the CCTV cameras but it is a really extensive and unusual kit -
works exceptionally well too.....
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wanted to ad dthis bit to a different thread but cant find it, so i'll put it here. just tried Seehund out in the bath. no radio gear or anything, just the two radio boxes and the blood pressure cuff. the hull sat on the bottom of the bath till i puffed up the cuff, result. the interesting thing is that it took very little inflation to bring her up. not nescasseraly good news as i will be relying on a partial vacum to deflate the bag, pulling the air back into the radio boxes, but hopefully by adding weight and blue foam i can ger it to work.
thanks to mankster and ramesh. two very helfull gents. once i get it to work in the bath all i have to do is find some decent water. then the problems realy start.
keep the questions and answers coming.
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the interesting thing is that it took very little inflation to bring her up. not nescasseraly good news as i will be relying on a partial vacum to deflate the bag, pulling the air back into the radio boxes, but hopefully by adding weight and blue foam i can ger it to work
If you want your bag to inflate say a futher 50cm3 before the sub surfaces, place 50cm3 of foam under the upper hull (just above the surface waterline).
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can i swear on this site?
fitted the blood pressure pump, sevo,switch and valve into a radio box today. tried it out in the sink. no joy. the bag would not inflate. i reckon the problem is with the size of the box, to f**** small and i am realy P***** of with this damned bloody thing. back to the drawing board ,again. all i can do now is to fit a small tube into the conning tower and connect it to the boxes, maybe pump in some extra air as well.
why on earth did i start this?
the other option is to scrap the boxes and put in tube. trouble is i dont have the facilities to make up water tight caps any sugestions?
i hate this ******************************************** thing.
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Patience is a virtue Colin of which you will need a great deal if you into model boating ;D ;D
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is this the gummi sac principle ??? you pump water into the bag which makes the model negative bouyancy and hey presto the model dives..... pump the water back out and the model returns to its positive bouyancy and surfaces.... if so is your bag inside the watertight box ????-
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So that is what the paramedic meant when he said you will be on the old suck and blow for a few days ;D ;D
Cheers
Bob B
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You could try running your pump on a higher voltage, it will only be operated for a short time so should be ok. You can increase the air capacity by installing additional boxes or air cyliders and connection them to your main boxes with a flexible tube. Reducing the volume of your upper hull and setlling on a higher surface water line will also help. If you pressurise your boxes with a bicycle pump, you will need a second pump to pump out the air from the bag back into the watertight area as there won' t be a pressure differentional between the bag and the WTC.
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am i missing the point ???? i am not sure, but maybe i am confused but if the pump is a peristaltic type when the pump stops there is no leak back, so if you are pumping air or water this one pump will do the job.... it works in both directions and when you stop the pump no matter what the pressure it wont leak 'back' in either direction, you have to operate the pump to get the flow in either direction to work.....
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unfotuantly the pump only does not suck when in reverse, still blows, and behave yourselves.
thanks again Mankster, save me wasting effort in pumping(behave) but the extra air tank is the way i am going. Boating is easy, sinking them is easy, getting the hatefull things to come back up again is the hard part.
thanks agin for the help, i will solve the thing, it used to have a name, actualy stil does, just not one for polite society.
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colin, if you pump does not suck in reverse would it not be easier to get one that does ?
the peristaltic ones like the one engels distribute will suck or blow in either direction, it will suck in from one side ( say the left) and blow out the other (the right), - reverse the polarity and it then sucks in on the right and blows out on the left....
i use this system in my sub- one pump less hassle- less space used in model too.....
i have now found a UK supplier for the pumps too, so dont need to order from engels in germany......plus alot cheaper buying them from the UK supplier....
if you need more details PM me....i also have photos of my dive system,
if space is a premium this must be worth considering.....
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Guy can you PM me the address for that pump please. Sounds like the best pump for the WTC i'll be building too.
Davie
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pm sent...............1pm 8.8.06
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Try Dave at Pandan/Subtech he has the pump thats runs the rcabs sytem, you know the one that inflates the bag that takes your blood pressure, or put a non return valve either side , of your pump, this will allow air to the bag and wont let back through the pump, with an air micro switch in the circuit, when the bag is fully inflated the switch allows air out of the bag through a third nrv back to the air tank, or just get a pump from Dave it may stop the swearing!!!!!!!!!!!!! at some point, welcome to submarines, Pete
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got a feeling it will take more than that to stop the swearing. stupid hobby. should never have got sucked in. i'm doooooooomed i tell you, doooomed.!!!!!!!! only just put me toys back in the pram.
just come of the subtech sight, cant find that pump. did find one for water though. is it the same? waiting for the man to get back to me about water tight prop shafts and tubes, found the tubes, but know shafts.
goin very quickly mad
colin
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Hi Colin , he doesnt list them, so your going to have to call, or email, Dave also doesnt list several diffrent sizes of clear tube with end caps,or various valves soloniods, and a host of other goodies, he,s very handy to know , he imports these, from Dave Welch in the u.s, or Big Dave, i noticed a couple of posts asking why he wasnt replying to emails, i think there are a couple of big sub shows on at the moment,which he does attend, regards Pete
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ta, can see a long conversation coming up with him. good to know he imports from big dave, save a lot of greif as i cant seem to make sense of daves site, or rather what to order. just a cluless old fogey realy.
subtech replied today, got the shafts i want, i hope.
just got to find something to use as the air bag and i will be a happy bunny.
colin
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... Colin... don't despair mate, I'm with you! I've got all this to come when Big Dave gives me the nod about the WTC he has ready for me - that will be when the 'fun' really starts... I'll need you (and hopefully a few helpful others on here) to tell me what to do then! ;D
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scratch built all mine, hence the crying. NEVER again. ready made in future, let us know how you get on
all the best
in sympathy
colin
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cross youre fingers, toes and legs for me.big water this weekend, weather permitting. ready to go. gulp.
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Oh woe is me. tried the damned thing out last weekend. didnt get much of a bash 'cos rain stopped play. but it was kind of succesfull, but a failure as well. found she leaked. in the bath she is fine. until i power up the motor, then she drags in a bit of water, despite a water tight shaft. decided it could be that i am creating such a vacuum in the boxes, to filll the bag, its pullng in ther wet stuff. so decided to add more volume. aded a tube housed in the conning tower and down as far as i can into the hull, also another tube sat behind this in the hull. straight away this is counter productive. more boyancy,more lead to get her down, the bigger the bag has to inflate. everything i do has a unwanted action. tried her out again tonight, in the bath. still bloody leaks. just off to have a cry.
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I've seen a few people advocating inflating the bag when the WTC isn't sealed so when you pump it back into the WTC you put positive pressure in there , makes it easier to re-inflate the bag and should help keep water out ( at least you'll see bubbles and can check where the leak is ).
Try reading thru the www.subpirates.com website , a lot of good info there
Davie
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did think of that. trouble is i rely on vacuum in the boxes to drag the air out the bag. pump only works one way.
ta.
mor5e sympathy needed
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Might be an idea to get a reversible pump then Colin , more expense I know but it seems to be the most commonally used system I can find.
Davie
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Collin, what type of seal do you have on the prop shaft?
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i am using one suppled by Sub-tech. the 1/8th with 4mm adaptor.
just tried her out again in the bath with a extra air box. think it did the trick, well till the battery went flat, lost servo movement, and the pump jammed on, over inflating the bag and it burst. Water sure got in then.prepare yourselves and cover any young innocent ears. *********, ***********,!!!!!!!!!!!!.
just as well the receiver is in a balloon. dont seem to be getting very long out of the battery, wonder if it is becuase it is sitting in water? may try Sheerlines idea. but wil use a cycle inner tube, sealed. any venting will then inflate the tube, indicating there is a problem, what do you reckon?
goint to try a smaller air box.
any way, till then i think that no water got in. never turned the motor on though.
oh why did i ever start this, and there i am thinking of doing an X-Craft. thats on the back burner till i sort this wee beasty out.
brace yourselves, hoping to get up to Black Park this sunday. expect to find an empty pond now i have said that.
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If you mount the bag in some sort of support/cuff, like a cylinder with holes drilled around it to allow it to vent, this will offer a lot of support to the bag, and will help to prevent it splitting in the future (this is covered in the book 'Model Submarine technology).
A good type of bag for your model is the type used for medical applications like these-
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/10-500ml-URINE-LEG-BAGS_W0QQitemZ320027778369QQihZ011QQcategoryZ36440QQssPageNameZWD2VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Also for air pumps, try this place-
http://www.respotec.de/shop/index.html?motore_pumpen_ventile_luefter_pumpen.htm
For water pumps, try a car breakers and look at recent cars with centrifugal pumps, these can move a lot of volume at reasonable pressure and are usually designed to remain wet for long periods.
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SUBCULTURE,
I have disposed of the subtech seals, and replaced with the ones sent to me, can you suggest a grease for smooth running and waterproof.
Roy
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I use silicone grease. Waterproof and doesn't tend to harden like vaseline etc.
I use the Servisol brand, which i purchased from Maplin electronics, but you can also purchase silicone grease from a good plumbers merchants.
What was wrong with the subtech seals?
Andy
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I use the same silicone grease but I find it need more topping up than vasline. My subtech push rod seals leaked under vacuum until I replaced the seals with o-ring's.
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Did you ever try turning the seal the other way round so the lip faced the opposite way?
Andy
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No, I'll give that a go :)
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Good idea with the seals will try that myself, it's amazing how some thing are to simple to fix that they are overlooked,
Surely there must be a waterproof grease that will stay where it is put, someone must have this knowledge, HELP
Roy
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There is Renolit CA-LZ, that Norbert supplies, which is based on tacky calcium soap. Haven't tried it myself, but Norbert doesn't tend to sell rubbish.
http://www.modelluboot.de/Zubehoer/Dichtungen.html#Haft
(Bottom of page)
I don't know of a UK supplier, try googling.
Andy
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I use the same silicone grease but I find it need more topping up than vasline. My subtech push rod seals leaked under vacuum until I replaced the seals with o-ring's.
The other thing is what Dave Welch does now. The aft part of the WTC is isolated from the rest so it doesn't vacuum when you inflate the bag. You lose a bit of volume, but you can increase the size of the WTC to compensate. This also keeps the majority of you electrics safe from the leaking water if there's any.
My 2c
Jason