Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Steam => Topic started by: kno3 on December 04, 2008, 09:41:26 pm
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Hi!
It's been a while since I have received my Graham TVR1A twin cylinder marine engine kit, but I only got around to build it a few days ago. So I thought I would post some pictures of the assembly process.
This is how it arrived.
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The instructions are very good and I didn't have any problems with the parts. All seem machined to fine tolerances, so everything fits together well. I was quite impressed that I only had to remove a few small chips left over from machining, nothing required bending, major shaping etc.
Since this is my first steam engine that I assemble from scratch, I followed the instructions and started with the base and crankshaft.
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The valve gear links and clumns were next.
My only problem was related to the many kinds of tiny screws, all using imperial threads. It took a bit of guesswork to figure which goes where, as I'm only used to metric. I could never understand why one would find it convenient to express sizes in fractions??
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It certainly looks like a very well finished set of parts, I have heard that are a very good engine and extremely good value for money. Keep up the good work, and please post more pics / comments on your build :-))
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Phil, I have to agree, it is a very realistic looking and complex marine engine. And yes, for the price you would otherwise get only a simple oscillator. The parts are incredibly small and precise. I forgot to use something in the pictures to show the scale, but the finished engine is only about the height of a package of cigarettes.
Now on to the next step. Nice as this kit may be, I thought that the cylinder base, originally square, is a bit bulky. So, inspired by another picture found on this forum, I decided to have a go at it with my calliper, drew the lines on, and then took it to the scroll saw. My idea was to leave only the protuberances needed to attach the cylinder base to the support columns.
However, I had a big problem: the saw blade got it's teeth curved when I turned the piece to cut in a corner, and because of that it dug into the edge, cutting more than i wanted. Luckily I had measured an extra millimetre for the edge, so I was able to repair that edge with a file, and still have enough material left to seat the cylinder well on it. That cut-out is a bit deeper than the others now, but it's hard to notice the difference.
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Time for an update.
First I lapped the cylinder faces which need to be steam tight, then I departed from the instructions again and used rolled Teflon tape to seal the pistons, instead of the o-rings provided with the kit. Installing it was easy, but I wonder how well it will seal. It might take several tries until I get it to seal properly, as I don't know how much to compress the Teflon.
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And now on to assembling the cylinders, now you can see what I tried to obtain by cutting out the cylinder base.
The piston rods are sealed by Teflon thread too.
Also added cross-head guides, then valves and chests.
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I have to say that it sems to be coming together very nicely. Two thoughts. Why did you opt for PTFE tape rather than the O-rings for piston rings? Second, purely aesthetically, I think it's a pity they supply slot head screws rather than hex heads which would be closer to full-size practice.
Had I not bought the one I did on ebay (it looks similar but not identical to a TVR1A) I'd be very tempted to build one myself. I particularly like your mod to the cylinder base plate. It make the engine look much less "clunky" than it might have done without the change.
Looking forwrd to the next pictures.
Guy
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hi,,,,,,,,,,looks great...nice littel enginen it is ..........i have 3 off them........all made with hex bolt ...yes it look more real and better,,,,,,,Graham sell them to.........i have mine paintet to,,and made with the orings
regards Bernhard
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Guy: I thought Teflon tape might reduce friction, and allow the engine to turn slower without stopping. I'll see how it works when I test it. If not, I can always put the original o-rings on. What engine did you buy on Ebay?
Bernhard: What colour did you paint yours? Can I see them? I'm thinking if I should paint mine too. I was considering having the aluminium parts anodized black, but couldn't find anyone to do it for me, so far.
Where does Graham offer hex screws for this engine? i didn't notice it on his website.
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By the way, I installed the paper gaskets Graham supplies, because I'm not so sure about my lapping skills. Has anyone tried assembling it without gaskets? Does it leak?
Here are some more pictures. The engine assembled, with the cylinder covers still off, to adjust piston position and valve timing, which is easily done because both valve - and piston rods are threaded and can be locked with a nut.
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Hi ,,Green......... yes they have the hex on Graham weeb side...bot i got mine Engines ready made,,,,,,,i have a singel 1 to,.. here are they runing
mine whas made with the gasket in,,+ sealer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CICE-XgTszA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJdS_g051WQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQlqhgRgz9g
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Very nice, so you painted the whole engine. i was thinking to leave the brass parts as they are and only paint the aluminium parts.
Will check Graham's website again.
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hi......yes i like them look used,,,im not so happy fore all that bling -bling
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CICE-XgTszA
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Here the finished engine with a marine flywheel.
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A really nice job there and very interesting to see it go together. The modification to the cylinder base plate makes a big difference to the overall appearance and was well worth doing, you should suggest it to the manufacturer.
As for teflon, unfortunately it, unlike rubber, does not return to it's original shape when you compress it so I think yours will soon start to pass by the piston and you will loose perfromance. The original "O" rings I am sure will be a far better proposition and will give better performance for a lot longer than teflon.
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hi.......well don,,,,,,,look tip top-
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hi,,,i forgot..on this i have a axel driven waterpump on.......from J.Hemmens.
regards Bernhard
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CICE-XgTszA
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Guy:What engine did you buy on Ebay?
Hi Don
This is the ebay engine. I'd be interested to know if anyone recognises the maker. It's a bit of an oddity. hackworth valve gear, metric fixings and somewhat sloppy linkages on the valve gear forward/reverse mechanism. Hex screws on the cylinder head but tiny cross-point ones elsewhere. Originally it had a black baseplate more suitable for display than use in a boat. It runs fine on air but I've not had steam through it yeta as it came without a lubricator. I either need to buy one or make one. Which will depend on how soon I can get some time in my model engineering workshop.
Cheers
Guy
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Looks beautiful and indeed quite similar to Graham's. Please make a separate thread and show us some more pictures of it, as i can't really make out the valve gear linkage.
Now back to the Graham engine:
John: For the Teflon, I don't know, you might be right with the compression. But Regner recommends it and uses it an all pistons in their steam engines and I didn't hear that they are leaky?!
I tried to run it on air, but since I don't have a compressor, I used a foot pump (that I normally use for my bicycle), and it only turned when I pressed really hard on it. I could hear the air blow-by and come out of the exhaust without the engine turning. Then I remembered that I had forgotten to lap the steam valve faces. After lapping them the engine turns better.
Now I'm wondering if the Teflon seals well or not, because i did compress it a lot by rolling the piston between two wooden blocks, so it would fit in the cylinder. Perhaps I should have pressed less, to have a tighter fit in the cylinder.
I remember reading somewhere that the Teflon would expand somewhat in contact with oil and steam. Is this correct?
And what do you think about running the engine in under steam, since I have no air compressor? The manual recommends running in on air, but are there any specific reasons why I shouldn't do this with steam?
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Looks beautiful and indeed quite similar to Graham's. Please make a separate thread and show us some more pictures of it, as i can't really make out the valve gear linkage.
OK I'll try to do that later. Got to do range tests on DX5e ATM while it's not raining!
Cheers
Guy
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As requested, I've started a new topic, Ebay engine - what is it?
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=14333.0
All comments appreciated.
Cheers
Guy
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There are other methods of running in an engine. You can put it in a lathe, hold the crankshaft in the chuck, let the engine rest on the tool post somewhere and run the lathe slowly. This is actually a good method as you can do it nice and slowly, adjust the speed and be in complete control. If you don't have a lathe you can make up a rig with a pistol drill and do the same thing.
You will have to organise some means of putting oil into it though. You can either arrange a tank with a drip feed into the inlet manifold or some sort of pressure system such as from a hypodermic syringe. What ever you do you need to add oil regularly to it.
If you can't do any of these then you can run in directly on steam but the problem is that steam oil is designed to be used with the steam and is a very good lubricant. For running in you really want to use a lighter oil to alow the parts to bed in initially before going back to steam oil later on in the process. i use normal engine oil for running in.
I have now done a couple of engines on compressed air and it works really well and if you are looking at doing much more of this then a compressor might be a worthwhile investment. You can then also use an airbrush and it is actually quite usefull when you are cleaning your engine parts to blow it all through. Cheap ones can start at less than 100.00 pounds but I would suggest that you need a reservoir and a silent type is also a major advantage. The cheapest of this type will set you back about 200.00 to 250.00 pounds but they are worth every penny.
...and you can pump your tyres up.
...and you can impress your mates by having all your engines run, one after the other.
...and you can blow up the li-lo.
...and you can chase the cat!
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Bunkerbarge,
I am never going to ask you to watch my cats if I am out of town! {-)
Nick
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Guys, I have changed to o-rings for sealing the pistons and it works well. I'll leave the Teflon for other occasions.
I also ran the engine in by turning it slowly with an electric drill set at slow speed and a flexible coupling. Turns much smoother now.
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hi.........So is it sun ready fore steam,,,,i have allso o.rings in all mine,,,,and i have allways run the enginens in,,,with steam.........never got a problem with that,,,Kno will you paint it,,,did you ordred the hex bolt,,,
Bernhard
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Not sure about painting. Didn't order the hex bolts yet. Might do it next year.
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Hi Guys,
Nice thread this and very nice engine. Has anyone got the link to the Manufacturer?
I'm new to this side of things and this looks sweet.
Thanks
Mark
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http://www.grahamind.com/stengine.html
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hey great photos and vidio of the Tvr1A
http://cmnc.hippocampe.free.fr/page.php?lang=FR&id_page=trv1a
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Just to have this thread complete, I'm adding the video of the Graham TVR1A running on steam. The boiler is a Cheddar return-flue (old style Puffin) with a Saito pressurized alcohol burner.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv05K6qeTkk
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There have been a couple of shops selling these engines on ebay. I notice today that Miskin models have just put their price up by £20 :((
I KNEW I should have bought one earlier....what's the phrase, 'he who hesitates is lost'.
Neil
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Well, that happens if you wait too long ok2
That being said, my impression after building and running it is that the engine is worth every penny. Even if some have commented negatively on the use of aluminium, I have only heard positive comments from people who actually own them.
I have only run mine a couple of times and can't say much about the longevity, but I can say this:
The fit and finish of the parts is outstanding, I didn't have any problem putting the kit together. Following the detailed instructions book made everything clear. The only operation that needs more care, in my opinion, is the mating of the cylinder port faces and slide valves.
After running it in (described previously) it performs very well now: no leaks to speak of, reliable slow speed and impressive high speed and power.
The only drawback I could notice is that the reversing lever, while perfect for manual control, has no provision for connecting a servo. It's not hard to make one yourself but it would have been nice to have it included in the kit, because I think that most people who buy this engine want to use it in an r/c model.
With the Graham TVR1A one gets a a complex and well-performing engine for a price that would buy you only a simple twin oscillator from other manufacturers. Now if this sounds like an advertisement for Graham, let me state that I don't know the manufacturer and have no connection with him, other than buying his product. And I'm really happy with it.
By the way, if I were to put another TVR1A kit together now, I wouldn't use the supplied gaskets (which are fine, by the way), only some high-temperature sealing paste. To this end I have used Hylomar (on other engines) and it allows perfectly tight seals even when mating isn't perfect. With paper gaskets the job isn't that easy.
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direct as of ten min ago they where $245 =£151 so postage is not that dear.Go direct
peter
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I have been sitting on the side lines regarding this engine, but recently found out that Cheddar Models were agents before they closed. That means the engine has been in production at least four or five years, I think if there were any fundamental problems, they would have come to the surface by now.
I must confess the reversing lever and the lack of a throttle valve are two areas I have considered, as modifying one and making the other add extra cost to the engine, as does the addition of a lubricator. All of that said, it is still a very inexpensive set up.
I'll keep watching prices, as I have no immediate need for another engine.
I would like to see more videos of TVR1A's actually installed in models AND working.
Peter don't forget the flywheel, postage and VAT.
Engine $245 = £153
Fly wheel $20 = £12.50
Postage estimate $20 = 12.50
VAT @ 15% = £26.70
Post office handling = £8
Total =212.70
Made £215 post free from Wales look pretty good >>:-(
Neil
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over the last 4 or 5 years I have bought lots from the states only last week spent a good few hundred pounds as well as the normal China stuff and have NEVER paid VAT or been asked for it, the postage is £12.50 so that is still nearly £90 cheaper the flywheel is with this one if you give me the shaft size ill make you one for postage, it's a bit like some cheddar engines it does not really need one. I know what I would do,
Peter
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Well, I could be persuaded.
You have been incredibly lucky with VAT. I bring a lot of archery equipment in from the US, and even little things like fibre optics I always seem to get caught for VAT, and if there is a VAT charge, then the Post Office charge for the paperwork that goes with it.
Like I said, I need another engine like I need flu, but the TVR1A is a fascinating little machine.
Neil
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Robert Graham has been making these engines for quite a few years, I have seen an add in a Model Steam magazine from the very early 90's. It is a small sideline business as he has a regular job too. He makes nothing except the engines. I have always thought they were good value so over the last few months (since being made redundant) I have imported a few and sold them on and everyone that has one is happy with it. I am currently running a single version which I assembled without gaskets and with only minimal lapping. It runs really well, no leaks and it will go down to very slow revs. I use a Bruce Engineering throttle valve (wish I could still get the ACS ones though) and a lubricator from P & M in the States as they are a fraction of the price of any made in the UK and nice looking units. The single is in a 36" river launch, originally electric, from an old Model Boats plan called Ritalea and it pushes that with a 2 & 1/2" prop really well. I think anybody with basic mechanical knowledge could assemble one of these and be relly proud of the result. Cheers, Ian.
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Re the R/C-able valve Kno3, most of the kits sold in the country of origin to the home market are likely to be destined to be "Bling Queens" connected to a compressed air supply so it's easy to play with the control while the engine is fastened to a polished wooden block. It's only us mad Europeans that connect them to kettles in wooden troughs and play with them at a distance. O0 :-))
Regards Ian
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Great thread, can't wait to get mine, only have to wait till Friday now!!!
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Put one on my Christmas list with nil expectation underneath the socks and hankies - opened an envelope on the Christmas tree - printout of despatch note from Graham Industries - SWMBO and eldest daughter have got me one!!!! Wow. Now I'll have to save up and contact Mr Maccsteam. A happy (whats left of) Christmas and New Year to all mayhemmers.
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http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1082073
LOOK WHAT HE HAVE DON,, WITH A GRAHAM.....with waterpump on,,,,,,,reale a well don launch to......take your time to go over the photos,,,,,,,,,,
Regards Bernhard
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Can anyone tell me the size adapter required for the prop coupling on a TRV1A.
Will post pics of mine here, now its built.
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3755.0
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I think they are 3/16" they are on the the plan as 0.188.
peter
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Can anyone tell me the size adapter required for the prop coupling on a TRV1A.
Will post pics of mine here, now its built.
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3755.0
4 mm couplings fit it too.
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HELP TRV1A doing my head in. Cannot get the timing sorted, have followed the book to the letter, stripped vavle gear, re set every thing , tried setting it 180 degrees removed, still no luck, any pointers anybody.
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I answered on your other thread...
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I answered on your other thread...
Maybe the mod's could merge the threads (or whatever the technical term is)
Guy
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Hi!
I have changed the stock cylinder covers with custom ones which a friends turned for me, with half-domes on them. Also received the hex bolt kit which I will add over time.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4060/4316030162_ca8c11b21b.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2713/4315293935_0533137952.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4035/4315293387_c52259ecc5.jpg)
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hey That look real great....................tip top........and with hex bolt now....
Regards Bernhard
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I have ordered a set of the bolts from miskin models. do you get the spanners with them ?
Andy
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I have ordered a set of the bolts from miskin models. do you get the spanners with them ?
Andy
What's the extra cost for the hex bolt kit Andy. I'm thinking about one of these engines but I think the hex bolts are essential so need to be factored in. OTOH I can turn up a flywheel myself.
Cheers
Guy
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Spanners are included. For the cost, look on Graham's website, he has an online shop.
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Hello KNO3.
Your engine looks far better now. For my first engine I also used Teflon piston rings but I made them out of solid material.
(http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/1413/zuigerveer.jpg) (http://img502.imageshack.us/i/zuigerveer.jpg/)
This one didn't make it to the engine.
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What's the extra cost for the hex bolt kit Andy. I'm thinking about one of these engines but I think the hex bolts are essential so need to be factored in. OTOH I can turn up a flywheel myself.
Cheers
Guy
The bolt set is £25.00
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The bolt set is £25.00
Hmmm. I checked Graham's US website and they're $25 there. I know the exchange rate's bad but...... {:-{ Might have to think about just collecting the right sizes from one of the suppliers over here. Anyway I prefer the look of steel screws and they doesn't chew up as badly as brass ones.
Guy
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kno3....your TRV1A brass cylinder caps & hex head screws look :-)) just the part....do they have an internally blind/flat face? ....Derek
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Thanks. The underside is completely flat, just like the original ones.
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I cant wait to finish mine all up ! I'm in the adjustment stages now !!
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hey,,,Thanks Kno3....i did allso a set covers to today,,,,,,,,,
Regards Bernhard
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hi Kno3,,,,,,, maby you friend can do you 2 like this,,,,,,,i neat repaint the top
Regards Bernhard
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They're looking perfect Bernhard! They seem somewhat flatter than mine though.
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Hi...Thanks.....yes it real chance the engines look....i did this to,,the covers are not so tall,,,just a littel over the hex bolt........
regards Bernhard
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More news: Bernhard was so kind as to make me two new valve rod covers, as seen on his engine. Here they are:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4053/4363352730_cd2b48a873.jpg)
And a close-up:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2701/4363353440_2175736fb4.jpg)
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Hi kNO... Great photo you do..
I DID THIS ON THE FRONT COVERS TO...EASY TO DO
and 4 of this will be real fine to
http://cgi.ebay.com/Oil-Cup-small_W0QQitemZ270412300318QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ef5d4401e#ht_1695wt_1166
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Some body should start selling these upgrades, I think they would sell well.
Andy
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Steam people are the nicest--Nice work and nice favor Bernhard!! :-))
So spill the beans Bernhard--what did you find to make into those rod top covers??? %% a modified brass tubing grommet??
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I want to know how much they will charge to make a set? I would probably paint my cylinders if I had brass covers.
Andy
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haaaa yes it look like that.....i just turn them on my littel lathe,,and shape them with a dremel
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looks like I'll have to get a little lathe then :}
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Pretty work... :-))
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Hey Kno3,
That's some kind of engine.
I have a large surfeit of Hex headed "fixings" as the English call them, both steel and brass.
I would be proud to add my little bit to that beautiful engine.
Just tell me what diameter thread, and what quantity, and they are yours.
Truly, I have way too many for my needs.
Neil.
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Thanks, fixings = screws?
I'll send you a message.
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Hi Kno3,
I love the different tops to the cylinders, just great.
I have a few PM-R engines, all of which I have replaced the slotted screws with hex heads. Why PM-R does not do that is beyond me. They are not a lot of money after all.
Congrats again. That engine looks fantastic.
Neil.
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-kno3-, I just discovered your build thread. I like the mod's you made to your TVR1A. The cylinder plate is a one of a kind I think. You and Bernhard, wow! You have made some very nice accessories! :-))
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kno3, I liked your modification to the cylinder base so much that I did something similar to mine.
I have the BB version & will post more pictures this weekend.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1336233
Yours looks great with the domed hrads. :-))
What will you be putting this engine in?
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Thanks Kmot & Reg,
I don't know yet what I will use the engine for. I the collecting bug has bitten me and now I have quite a few engines and just one boat! :D
Actually I might not use it any time soon because I want to make a small boat, so I will have to use one of the smaller engines.
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Another update:
I have added new steam chest covers. I have discussed the design with a friend and he cut it with his cnc machine.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5167/5377756373_d6a9873348_m.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/47590525@N04/5377756373/)
2011-01-22 008 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/47590525@N04/5377756373/) by -kno3-2 (http://www.flickr.com/people/47590525@N04/), on Flickr
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5087/5377756543_ff0fe03095_m.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/47590525@N04/5377756543/)
2011-01-22 009 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/47590525@N04/5377756543/) by -kno3-2 (http://www.flickr.com/people/47590525@N04/), on Flickr
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5128/5377756687_9799f5dde3_m.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/47590525@N04/5377756687/)
2011-01-22 014 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/47590525@N04/5377756687/) by -kno3-2 (http://www.flickr.com/people/47590525@N04/), on Flickr
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hi,,look real good,,bot ,,why is it not a Big.. G in ..there...like the cover on Monahan..M ..or S <Stuart ?
Regards Bernhard
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Because it's a joint venture ok2
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:-)) Looks most excellent! Now change out those screws on the linkage & file the exposed ones flush to the V link........unless you are getting them made up in brass. O0
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Cool upgrade part's Kno3 ok2
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All,
Great thread! I'm two hours into building my TVR1A. Assembly has been greatly aided by the photos. Please place me on the waiting list for custom covers if any of you go into production.
Landlocked
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Just completed my TVR1A and found this thread a big help. It runs OK, but is more reluctant to start in reverse, so I think I'll have to revisit the timing and see if I can improve that. I, too, would be interested in both cylinder and valve chest covers if anyone's going to produce them for sale.