Model Boat Mayhem

Mess Deck: General Section => Beginners start here...! => Topic started by: invasion on December 29, 2008, 11:11:54 am

Title: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: invasion on December 29, 2008, 11:11:54 am
Hi, to everyone on the forum looks like I will be able to learn a lot from you guys and you never know in a few months or so might be  able to give some advice ;)

Well for Christmas I got a Billings Norden No. 603, now as I said this is my first ever boat build, and I would of liked a bit more instruction than comes with the Norden.

Can somone advise me on the best type Glue to use for this? or maybe a Hot glue Gun is in order ??

The other thing that is puzzling me is in Fig 1: in the instructions it says Cut out Frames 1-10 but they are not numbered on the sheet so I am not really sure if I have them in the correct order ?? they look ok but I could have one or two the wrong way round...and I am finding really hard to tell as it is quite a complex shape and being new to all of this. So should they of been numbered on the sheet seems odd to me that they are not??
Then I thought they must be printed on the sheet in order but from 1-10 but this doesn't seem to be the case either  ??

So can anyone help me with this it would be much appreciated sorry for such basic questions  :embarrassed:

thanks in advance 
 
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: andyn on December 29, 2008, 11:22:20 am
I've never built one of these, but i would advise against a hot glue gun, as they do have a tendency to drip everywhere and is likely to drip all over your nice shiney boat.
My dad has been building a Billings Bluenose Schooner for about the last 20 years and was using PVA
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: invasion on December 29, 2008, 11:30:00 am
Hi thanks for the reply   :-)) so regular PVA will do the job ?? you would think they would put a tube in the kit as it is a beginers kit!
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: Arrow5 on December 29, 2008, 11:45:58 am
If it is an all wood kit I`d seek out some exterior PVA although not for prolonged immersion, they use the term "weatherproof" not waterproof. It will still go slightly rubbery after a while. Be sure to paint the inside of the hull when complete.  I use Titebond II which is weatherproof, easy to clean accidents ! Model aircraft shops will have it in stock,it dries yellowish so careful if the joint is going to be seen or varnished.  Epoxy adhesives might be better. You know of course that you HAVE to post pictures of your build ...WE want to learn too :-))
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: invasion on December 29, 2008, 12:39:31 pm
yes it is all wood kit..but it will be display only it wont be getting wet! I will have a look in DIY shop for some wood glue something like Eo Stick PVA ?? and I will post pictures along the way good or bad lol !
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: barriew on December 29, 2008, 01:36:19 pm
Ordinary PVA will be fine, but if you can find some aliphatic glue (I think that is what Titebond is) it tends to grab a bit quicker than ordinary pva - its usually yellow. A DIY shop may have this, otherwise use pva. I am afraid that Billings instructions are not very helpful as you say, but if you get stuck post on here.

Barrie
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: dougal99 on December 29, 2008, 01:57:11 pm
Hi Invasion

Welcome to the forum.

Not built this boat, but to ensure you get the frames in the right order try dry fitting them to the keel in the indicated positions and then use a hull plank strip to check the run. Any undue dips or rises between frames will indicate if they need swapping about.

HTH

Good luck

Doug
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: invasion on December 29, 2008, 02:00:46 pm
Barriew:
Thanks for that  ok2 instructions are so bad and I just cant believe they haven't printed numbers on the parts or is this the normal for boat kits ?

Dougal99:
 Thanks for the tip on using a plank strip I will give it a go! after this kit I think I will try a different make with better instructions  any suggestions??
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: dougal99 on December 29, 2008, 02:29:22 pm
Depends on what you want but Model Slipway do a mean instruction book. Take a look at their website

http://www.modelslipway.com/complete1.shtml

Cheers

Doug
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: wideawake on December 29, 2008, 02:40:24 pm
Barriew:
Thanks for that  ok2 instructions are so bad and I just cant believe they haven't printed numbers on the parts or is this the normal for boat kits ?

Dougal99:
 Thanks for the tip on using a plank strip I will give it a go! after this kit I think I will try a different make with better instructions  any suggestions??

I've not built this kit but have two other Billings kits and therefore great sympathy for your views on the instructions.   You should see the ones for kits labelled suitable for "more advanced modellers"!!

However looking at the instruction manualpage 32 (.pdf available on line) I see that, in the same way as the kits I have, the parts are numbered on the diagrams of the sheets of pre-cut parts.   Personally I use these sheets to identify the parts and mark them in pencil before removing them from the sheets.  If Dougal99's suggestion doesn't give you confidence that you're right then I'd suggest fitting the frames back into the holes in the sheet and matching them against the diagram or if the scrap sheet material is no longer in one piece, making a copy of the diagram at full size and matching the frames to that.

HTH

Guy
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: Martin (Admin) on December 29, 2008, 03:43:19 pm
FYI:   http://www.collateral.org.uk/mantua/b603.pdf (http://www.collateral.org.uk/mantua/b603.pdf)

(http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/norden_lrg.jpg)

Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: Seaspray on December 29, 2008, 03:55:59 pm
Hi invasion

Welcome to the forum, lots of help / experience here when needed    :-))

There is never such a thing as a silly question asked on here.

There are charts about on what glues to use on various materials.  http://www.deluxematerials.co.uk/system/index.html 

See the chart link just above the model house and plane
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: JB on December 29, 2008, 09:21:48 pm
I built the Norden a couple of years ago, i used Aliphatic resin glue which does grab quicker than ordinary PVA so is a good choice IMO. Yes the instructions could be better but there you go!!!. To be honest i can't remember much about my build (festive 'spirit' isn't helping at the minuite %%) but i'll post my experience of the kit if you get stuck, i have some pics and still have the box and instuctions somewhere.. i think %) Don't know how to post pics but i'll try.

(http://) 
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: JB on December 29, 2008, 10:13:52 pm
Well the pic worked much to my surprise!

On your question about the frames, here's a pic of mine...numbered... :embarrassed:

Just realised it's 3 1/2 years since i built the Norden, no wonder it's all a bit fuzzy!

(http://)
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: OMK on December 30, 2008, 12:32:41 am
I had a stab at building the Norden a few years ago. Unfortunately, I'm more of cabin cruiser fan, and ended up biting off more than I could chew. I also hit the idea that I shoud scale it up -- by which time I was getting waaaay out of my depth.
Unto this day I'm still not entirely sure what became of it.
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: barryfoote on December 30, 2008, 09:36:12 am
Hi PMK,

So that's what I missed out on......Looks great....You really should have finished it you know!!

Barry
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: invasion on December 30, 2008, 01:22:49 pm
Barriew:
Thanks for that  ok2 instructions are so bad and I just cant believe they haven't printed numbers on the parts or is this the normal for boat kits ?

Dougal99:
 Thanks for the tip on using a plank strip I will give it a go! after this kit I think I will try a different make with better instructions  any suggestions??

I've not built this kit but have two other Billings kits and therefore great sympathy for your views on the instructions.   You should see the ones for kits labelled suitable for "more advanced modellers"!!
   If Dougal99's suggestion doesn't give you confidence that you're right then I'd suggest fitting the frames back into the holes in the sheet and matching them against the diagram or if the scrap sheet material is no longer in one piece, making a copy of the diagram at full size and matching the frames to that.

HTH

Guy

Thanks Guy I fitted them back in the frames and have them all numbered up now  :-)) as for the advance kits I am glad I didn't choose one  of those first and I very nearly did  :o
FYI:   http://www.collateral.org.uk/mantua/b603.pdf (http://www.collateral.org.uk/mantua/b603.pdf)

(http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/norden_lrg.jpg)


Thanks for the link for the PDF helped number them all up much appreciated
Hi invasion

Welcome to the forum, lots of help / experience here when needed    :-))

There is never such a thing as a silly question asked on here.

There are charts about on what glues to use on various materials.  http://www.deluxematerials.co.uk/system/index.html 

See the chart link just above the model house and plane
Bookmarked that site thanks for the warm welcome  :-)

I built the Norden a couple of years ago, i used Aliphatic resin glue which does grab quicker than ordinary PVA so is a good choice IMO. Yes the instructions could be better but there you go!!!. To be honest i can't remember much about my build (festive 'spirit' isn't helping at the minuite %%) but i'll post my experience of the kit if you get stuck, i have some pics and still have the box and instuctions somewhere.. i think %) Don't know how to post pics but i'll try.

(http://) 
Just found a shop two minutes down the road that sells Aliphatic resin glue so I am off to get some in a minute and  get this build underway  ok2

thanks for the pics etc much appreciated
I had a stab at building the Norden a few years ago. Unfortunately, I'm more of cabin cruiser fan, and ended up biting off more than I could chew. I also hit the idea that I shoud scale it up -- by which time I was getting waaaay out of my depth.
Unto this day I'm still not entirely sure what became of it.

I would of liked to have seen the up scaled version finished  :-)

Thanks again for all the help everyone...much appreciated  ok2
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: invasion on January 04, 2009, 10:37:19 am
Ok will post some pictures later but could really do on some tips on planking and pining as I cant get the pins to hold it ?? was wondering if I should use some super glue for planking or is this wrong? I am using Aliphatic glue at the moment.
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: andyn on January 04, 2009, 10:57:40 am
Does anyone have the plans for this boat? I would quite like to build something simalar based on this hull.

Would like to enlarge it to around 34 inches

If anyone has the plane I am willing to pay for it / borrow it to enlarge it.

Actually does anyone make a 34 inch glassfibre hull for this type of hull shape?

Andy :-))
 
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: Seaspray on January 04, 2009, 11:47:54 am
If you have a look in the Master Build Section on the home page. There are planking "how tos" there. Try The Tug Cervia Hull Build  for starters. There are others there, which would be of interest to.

Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: JB on January 04, 2009, 08:43:22 pm
Ok will post some pictures later but could really do on some tips on planking and pining as I cant get the pins to hold it ?? was wondering if I should use some super glue for planking or is this wrong? I am using Aliphatic glue at the moment.


i would not use superglue for planking, 'stick' with the aliphatic...sorry :}

I will try to explain the method i used, the planks will not bend enough without breaking or are difficult to hold in place with pins so i soaked them in hot water for a while, i taped the bow ends around a tin can and left them to dry, the stern ends might not need a soak, don't forget to chamfer the frames so the plank sits on them nicely, i used medium sandpaper, looking at my kit part 12 is fitted first..(i think..these instructions are as clear as mud  {:-{) mark a line near the center on part 12 for reference, offer up the first plank and mark this to match, you now need to chamfer the plank to butt up against part 12, i have a small 'David' plane for this, you could use sandpaper, instead of pining through the planks hold them in place by pining just under them, they will split easily especially at the bow, you should find by soaking the planks they are much easier to hold in place while the glue dries.

I'll try find some more pics of the hull..for inspiration..keep at it :-))

   
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: Seaspray on January 05, 2009, 08:36:25 am
I use to use the old kettle to shape wood (steam them) to the correst shape but there all automatic these days ,so thats out the window.

As jab says make sure they are completely dry before you use them so you know the shape you have made. Correct if necessary. There are pics on the Cervia build that complement the write up, which I find helpful.

Keep boating
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: DickyD on January 05, 2009, 11:06:27 am
As Seaspray says, have a look at Johns Cervia build its very good.

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7947.0
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: wideawake on January 05, 2009, 03:23:36 pm
I use to use the old kettle to shape wood (steam them) to the correst shape but there all automatic these days ,so thats out the window.


?????????????????  :-)

Only if you mean these modern electric gadgets!!   A proper kettle on the hob works fine.   Even (most) electric ones can be forced into submission by gaffer taping the on off lever or button in the on position!   Not that I'm suggesting such a trick of course   ;)

Cheers

Guy
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: Seaspray on January 05, 2009, 06:12:35 pm
Save yourself the price of a new kettle. Use a pan, one you can unscrew the lid handle off.

You'll be left with a nice little hole which creates a little jet of steam for shaping. Coming out of the top of the pot.  ok2  ok2  ok2

Seaspray
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: wideawake on January 05, 2009, 06:16:55 pm
Save yourself the price of a new kettle. Use a pan, one you can unscrew the lid handle off.

You'll be left with a nice little hole which creates a little jet of steam for shaping. Coming out of the top of the pot.  ok2  ok2  ok2

Seaspray

Good idea - which made me think of a use for that old pressure cooker in the back of the cupboard.   Just leave the weight off and lots of steam blows out of the vent in the lid IIRC  :-)

Guy
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: Seaspray on January 05, 2009, 06:28:13 pm
I would avoid the oll pressure cooker. Don't like the word pressure, or steam under pressure, unless its in a locomotive with a safely valves .


Seaspray.
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: barriew on January 05, 2009, 07:41:28 pm
Personally I use boiling water from the kettle put into a thermos flask - put the wood in the flask. If you replace the lid between batches, the water keeps warm even in my shed. Safer than steam :-))

Barrie
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: wideawake on January 05, 2009, 07:46:21 pm
I would avoid the oll pressure cooker. Don't like the word pressure, or steam under pressure, unless its in a locomotive with a safely valves .


Seaspray.

Point taken Seaspray, but I wasn't suggesting using it as a pressure cooker.   With the weight off it's basically nearly the same thing as a saucepan with a hole in the lid (see a previous post).

Cheers

Guy
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: SteamboatPhil on January 05, 2009, 07:59:31 pm
Andy,have a look at deansmarine website as he doing a limited run of a fishing boat at the moment   :-))
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: andyn on January 05, 2009, 08:11:24 pm
Andy,have a look at deansmarine website as he doing a limited run of a fishing boat at the moment   :-))

Cheers Phil, but it's not big enough!!! I want it big enough for this Quickdraw 35cc job %)

The item, I want to enlarge it from 3 inches to 34 inches. Long story why...

(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll184/andyn_01/DSCN3510.jpg)
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: Seaspray on January 06, 2009, 08:45:09 am
o.k.Guy

I take the idea further and with the pan secured to the cooker guard. I put a piece of copper pipe to the hole of about 18 inch long, it to is secured. That way I can drop a piece wood in the pipe , and can then shape the whole length  in a onner.  I tried it with the steam coming into a flat tin but the steam turned back into very hot water. Also was looking into these silver trays they use for sterilising but you can get too involved and it was back to basics.

Nice idea barriew


Seaspray
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: invasion on January 10, 2009, 01:35:03 pm
ok a couple of pictures ot the greatest  but more will follow if I can ever sort out how to plank this thing.

Now on the second picture I have drawn to lines can you tell me if I attach the planks at the Blue Line which I think is to far forward or the Red Line and then I sand the Keel piece to the correct profile??
hope this makes sense

Thanks AJ

(http://www.pbase.com/invasion/image/107983208/large.jpg)

(http://www.pbase.com/invasion/image/107983195.jpg)
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: Seaspray on January 10, 2009, 02:03:47 pm
This might be a help or not.

The first picture  shows the block of wood shaped to take up the curve from the end of the planking to the keel/bow

The 2nd picture shows the build being planked to  finishing off frame 2

Seaspray







Seaspray
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: amdaylight on January 10, 2009, 03:02:01 pm
The piece with the red line needs to be beveled so the plank will fit smoothly against it. before you plank the hull you need to "fair" the bulkheads. Meaning each bulkhead needs to be sanded so that when you lay a plank across it there are no humps or dips. the plank should also contact the bulkhead across the whole width of the bulkhead, not just one edge or the other. If you go to Model Expo and read the online instructions for the Armed Virgina Sloop ( http://www.modelexpo-online.com/product.asp?ITEMNO=MS2160 ) and read Stage 1, part 5 they do a very good job of explaining how to fair a hull. If you read Part 2 they do a very good job of explaining how to plank a hull.

This is why I recomend either a Blue Jacket Ship Model or a Model Shipways kit as a good starter for plank on frame building because they do such a good job of explaining the process of planking the hull.

Andre
over yonder in Portland Oregon
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: malcolmfrary on January 15, 2009, 10:47:51 am
o.k.Guy

I take the idea further and with the pan secured to the cooker guard. I put a piece of copper pipe to the hole of about 18 inch long, it to is secured. That way I can drop a piece wood in the pipe , and can then shape the whole length  in a onner.  I tried it with the steam coming into a flat tin but the steam turned back into very hot water. Also was looking into these silver trays they use for sterilising but you can get too involved and it was back to basics.

Nice idea barriew


Seaspray
Steam wallpaper stripper?  Instead of using the "approved" fittings direct the steam into a tube that is long enough for your wood strips.  Catch the condensate in a pan, pour it back into the steamer as required.
Title: Re: First ever boat kit your help much appreciated
Post by: Seaspray on January 15, 2009, 12:47:03 pm
will do,cheers

Seaspray