Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Navy - Military - Battleships: => Topic started by: RickF on January 03, 2009, 02:25:35 pm
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Hi Guys,
I need some help on flags. Having never been afloat, my only connection with flags was as an RAF NCO, hoisting and lowering the ensign. It was a long time ago and the memory's going anyway, but I seem to remember that the lanyard which attached the flag to the hoist had a loop at the top and a toggle at the bottom - or was it the other way around? I do remember getting it hooked on upside down once!
However my question is this. Is there a "rule" regarding the length of the lanyard which I have indicated in red below? I'm sure there must be at least one old "bunting *Naughty Word*" out there who knows?
Thanks
Rick
PS. I see my attempt to use naval slang has fallen foul of the Forum Police - but you'll know what I meant
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i would have thaught the lanyard would be as close to the flag as possible so that the flags fly close the halyard
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There has to be some length to it so that when a signal is hoisted by connecting flags together, there are spaces between adjacent flags.
Ref your pm - the word was "To**er"!
Rick
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do these pics help.
the flags i presume would be of a given size, and so by the pic of the warship signals, you may be able to work out the spacing
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The flags are attached to the halyard with "Inglefield Clips". The flag itself has a similar clip attached to the top of the flag and another at the bottom of a length of halyard (about 4') integral to the flag. So when one flag is attached to another the top of the lower flag connects to the bottom end of the 4' length hanging out of the bottom of the upper one. Still with me? The upper clip has a swivel and the bottom one doesn't. When no flags are attached the 2 ends of the main halyard are simply clipped together and secured to whatever. There is no excuse for flying a flag upside down...but it happens, and then you get an upside down flag flying at half mast. Must admit to being guilty myself.....in younger days....and suffered the resultant bollocking. BY.
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Did you say b********g?
Dude, I had you down as an educated sort. Never thought of you as the sort of bloke who would use gutter lingo so openly. It's only the vocabularly-challenged bozos like I who have to resort to that sort of caper.
Ah!... so you ARE cool after all, then.
(I'm laughing my norks off at your post because it conjures up images of Bishop, F-F-French Roger, et all, wetting their pants but not having the balls to tell you that you've been a naughty boy). {-)
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Reminds me of a girl I once knew who confused rowlocks with "xxxxx".....
Colin
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Thanks Bryan - a succinct answer as always. However.... as I said I was in the RAF, and I'm sure we didn't have anything as technical as "Inglefield Clips" on our ensigns - just loops and toggles. The period I'm interested in is late 19th century,so would they have had these fancy clips, or loops and toggles?
Colin - I knew a couple of old oars like that, too!
Rick
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Chances are that the toggle and loops were used...certainly easier to make for a model, but the clips go a long way towards stopping the whole hoist getting wrapped up like washing in a gale. Personally, if I'm making a flag hoist (at 1:48) I just glue the flags to a common halyard. To pevent tangling (especially on the jack and ensign staff) I let the entire staff rotate in its socket. Also, signal flags are much larger than is generally realised...about 6' square. I suppose they have to be if you want them seen at anything over shouting distance, but I find that flying true scale flag signals (signal letters etc.) a distraction and so make the flags smaller...except for the ensign....and an "in-port" ensign is a lot smaller than a "sea-going" one. But you are entering a whole new world if you want to get into "flag etiquette"...and it's quite boring. Good luck with your toggles and loops. Perhaps an elderly ladies underwear maker can give you some tips (elderly running both ways). BY.
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As I understand my flags the toggle is at the top with the loop at the bottom (with about 1ft of halyard--depending on size of flag)
Of course I could be talking rowlocks ;) ;)
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Did you say b********g?
Dude, I had you down as an educated sort. Never thought of you as the sort of bloke who would use gutter lingo so openly. It's only the vocabularly-challenged bozos like I who have to resort to that sort of caper.
Ah!... so you ARE cool after all, then.
(I'm laughing my norks off at your post because it conjures up images of Bishop, F-F-French Roger, et all, wetting their pants but not having the balls to tell you that you've been a naughty boy). {-)
Don't spend 40 years at sea without picking up a bit of the riper language my son. I can swear in 7 languages without the moderators knowing...but I won't, as I prefer to keep it all clean(ish). Ta for the post. BY.
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Thanks, Phil, that's basically all I was after - how long is that part of the halyard attached to the flag, so that when I space out a flag hoist it looks realistic. However, as there were several sizes of flag sets and ensigns available in the period I'm looking at - depending on the size and/or importance of the vessel flying them - I wondered if there was a simple formula, such as "halyard=2/3 flag".
Rick
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As I understand my flags the toggle is at the top with the loop at the bottom (with about 1ft of halyard--depending on size of flag)
Of course I could be talking rowlocks ;) ;)
Correct....but a lot more than 1' of halyard below.
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Isn't the toggle rope length from toggle to eye....normally twice the depth of the flag ?
Rex
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Not if you look at the flag hoists shown above, Rex.
Rick
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In a similar vein... %) Can someone tell me what the true size of a 2ndWW Battle ensign on a battlecruiser would have been (in feet and inches or even cms). I know about the 'breadths' bit so I can get that bit sorted but in order to scale properly at 1/35, I need to know what the original size was. Please... anyone? O0
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one came up for sale about 7 years ago from the battleship Vanguard at Christies auction house in london, and i remember vividly as i could't belive how large it was.
the dims in the catalogue were 12' x 8' [ yes twelve feet by eight feet ]
i remember it also made 4 figures too.
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From photo evidence, the normal Ensign for a RN BB is 7.5 feet hoist by 15 feet fly. All RN flags are 1:2 ratio and the largest in inventory is a 12 X 24 foot monster. The battle flag would have been larger than the normal Ensign and other available sizes were 8x16, 9x18 and 10.5x21.
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My god Darren, still leading an interesting life then. ok2
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That's really helpful and I thank you. ok2 I can use what you've said but.... I don't suppose you would know the size of Hood's battle ensign would you? I tried the Hood association site but there's nothing on there about it. <:(
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No-one seems to have picked up Martin's use of the words:
2ndWW battlecruiser
and
1/35
...used in the same sentence. %%
Andy
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Ooops - sorry. It's "HMS Hood Martin".
Brain fade. I'm off for a lie-down.
Andy
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Okaayyyy.... Now I'm confused. HMS Hood has been referred to variously as 'The Hood', The Mighty Hood, HMS Hood... so forgive me but I guess your point is slipping past me. The scale I'm building in is correct... 1/35. In order to have a battle ensign that is correct to scale, I need to know what size the original one was.
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My apologies - it's "Martin's HMS Hood" ... not another Martin who is also building summat big at 1/35th.
If only MBM had an edit facility. I'd've corrected my initial posting. :-(
Andy
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Andy,
There is an "Edit" facility but only for the first 30 minutes. We found this necessary to stop Members posting, then much later deleting or altering their post and denying they had! After that you can always ask a Moderator to edit your post for you.
Roger in France
Moderator
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My question....? :embarrassed:
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My god Darren, still leading an interesting life then. ok2
Yes Dicky, too busy as always. You're well, I assume?
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That's really helpful and I thank you. ok2 I can use what you've said but.... I don't suppose you would know the size of Hood's battle ensign would you? I tried the Hood association site but there's nothing on there about it. <:(
Martin,
The 'Battle' flag, as I understand it, is a larger ensign used only when going into battle or other ceremonial occasions. Here is a photo of what I consider to be a Battle flag on a USN Destroyer,
(http://www.resinshipyard.com/pictures/Battle%20flag%20Milius.jpg)
Much larger than the normal Ensign flown. If you want to fly a Battle flag from the mast, use the 10.5 x 21 foot flag. Another practice I've seen is flying an Ensign (9 foot would be good) at the stern and the mast when going into battle, otherwise the following would used.
The 'normal size' Ensign used day to day on RN Battleships would have been like this:
(http://www.resinshipyard.com/pictures/flag%20HMS%20Warspite%20c1930s.jpg)
Which 'looks' to be about 9 feet tall by 18 feet long (but it may be 8 feet, hard to tell). Photos of the Ensign flying at the mast measure only 7.5 feet tall. This size difference is normal as they had different flags for use on Sundays as opposed to week days and different sizes for the aft staff as opposed to the mast. 'Normal' practice is/was to fly the ensign at the stern when at port (leaving or entering, at anchor, at the jetty), while the ensign at the mast is flown while under way in open seas.
HTH's
Darren
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My question....? :embarrassed:
Hi Martin
a 'Battel ensign' is just an ordinary ensign but in battle, a ship will fly them from various parts of the rigging, it aided identification especially so if a mast was brought down due to battle damage (and they wouldn't want to be thought of as surrendering prematurely. ok2 *) So they used more than 1 but less than about 5
This page gives the sizes of flags, ensigns and pendants:
http://www.gwpda.org/naval/s0100000.htm (http://www.gwpda.org/naval/s0100000.htm)
These are the sizes of Ensign available, Quote:
"Ship's ensigns are suppulied in the following sizes, viz:-
In breadths ranging from 20, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8, 6, 4, and so on down to a 3 breadth - the smallest.
* A 20 ensign - 10 yards x 5 yards
* A 16 ensign - 8 yards x 4 yards
* A 14 ensign - 7 yards x 3 1/2 yards
* A 12 ensign - 6 yards x 3 yards
* A 10 ensign - 5 yards x 2 1/2 yards
* A 8 ensign - - 4 yards x 2 yards
* A 6 ensign - - 3 yards x 1 1/2 yards
* A 4 ensign - - 2 yards x 1 yard
* A 3 ensign - - 1½ yards x ¾ yard"
I'd think HOOD would have used 1x or 2x 20's and 1x or 2x 16s during battle.
* That would be an interesting article to read, the hows, whys and wherefores of battle ensigns.
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Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.Thank you. Thank you.
I can now get out my sewing kit and start making some!
Cheers
Martin
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This will give me a white ensign that is 26cm x 13cm or 1ft 10in x 11in!!! :-)) Anyone know if there's a source for flags about this size? ;D
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Not from the model industry...
The biggest that BECC manufacture (and we stock) is 150mm (6 inches) long.
You would have to look for a manufacturer who does smaller versions of the full-size product.
Malc
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I know that Aviation World near me used to carry a similar size, http://www.aviationworld.net/
But they don't list it on the website.
Best to find a flag shop near you and see what they have, might be a custom order.
Darren
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This will give me a white ensign that is 26cm x 13cm or 1ft 10in x 11in!!! :-)) Anyone know if there's a source for flags about this size? ;D
Martin, did you just have a brain fart there? :-) 26cm is about 10 inches, not 1ft 10 inches! My maths, >ahem, cough, splutter<, say it's about 10" in by 5" which is your 26 x 13cm.
PM me with a definite size and how many and a physical address and I may have a volunteer that will give you big enisgns to whatever size you want on white silk?/linen.
YOU'LL have to say how you want to fix them to the halyard, whther the flags just have the 'channel' for the halyard rope just sewn in and left... or with a length of rope actually fixed in there.
The other idea is wait for a rugby/football final and go 'the pound shop' and get some of those flags they fly from a cars window/roof.
Cheers mate
Paul
p.s fibreglass is easy and it only gets complex when you're making moulds or casting from a non-rubber mould.. coating your hull will be technically easy BUT will be hard, possibly dusty work due to the area.
Ah.. so it's a 2-manner... who's your 'Capt. Kerr' to your 'Adml Holland'? ok2
p.p.s. you want someone there with a video for YOU. I'm sure that shouldn't be an issue with so many digicams and phones offering 'video' these days?
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My god Darren, still leading an interesting life then. ok2
Yes Dicky, too busy as always. You're well, I assume?
Not to bad Darren, no worse, no better. ok2
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I'm really sorry, I think I hijacked this thread... {:-{