Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Model Boating => Topic started by: Leovilla on January 10, 2009, 12:24:15 pm
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It is with some regret that I make this post :((. Having been a member of the MPBA for years and responsible for setting up the Fast Electric Section as it is I have been informed that my membership for 2009 has been refused because I have made adverse comments about the organisation on a forum :o
My comments were a repeat of what I wrote in several of my articles for Marine Modelling Magazine and simply said the organisation could do with a makeover and asked if it was fit for purpose. These comments were designed to provoke a debate and were not directed towards any individual.
Considering that about 6 years ago those on the exec wanted me to take on the national secretary's job the latest turn of events is astonishing.
The problem I guess is that I ask questions, dont suffer fools gladly and try to improve our hobby; the latest incumbents on the exec must either see me as a threat or dont like the fact that I ask questions. 2
The ban means I cannot enter the National Championships and therefore can never qualify to get to the world championships.
It seems reasonable to assume that if they ban me because I make adverse but constructive comments about the organisation anyone doing the same is going to get banned. This is not democracy.
I have done a great deal at local and national level to help our hobby and this is my reward. Its neither fair, just or right by any standard. Perhaps its a case of members must be tolerated for the membership money but not heard. Its hardly surprising that membership numbers have been on a downward drift for years.
Ernie Lazenby
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Ernie,
I am sorry to hear this but this seems to be the norm now.
a good few clubs in Scotland feel that the Scottish federation is now not fit for purpose either
which is a sad thing to say.
I feel the problem is that these types of organisations (model boating or otherwise) get people to run them build there wee
empires and get their ivory tower and are unwilling to look at themselves by this I mean look at the organisation, look at is
achievements/ failures and try and improve them until it is too late and they have no members left.
If the organisation is responsible for the entry to world Championships I feel then that the organisation has no right to
stop you entering the qualifiers as they have taken on the responsibility of this and regardless of personal feeling
they have the responsability to get the best and then have the qualifiers should be open to all who wish to take part
and enter
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Sad to hear that the same picture is emerging in Scotland.
Its really hurt me this because at no time have I ever been offensive to anyone at a model boat event, always conducted myself properly and done my very best to promote the hobby using my own money and much time for the benefit of others.
Its the illuminarti that is the problem, self serving individuals who don't take gladly to those who ask difficult questions and want meetings to be conducted in accordance with the basic and long established normal practices.
I believe that unless the MPBA changes to bring it into the 21st century it will either die completely or become a total irrelevance.
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I have been informed that my membership for 2009 has been refused because I have made adverse comments about the organisation on a forum :o
My comments were a repeat of what I wrote in several of my articles for Marine Modelling Magazine and simply said the organisation could do with a makeover and asked if it was fit for purpose. These comments were designed to provoke a debate and were not directed towards any individual.
It seems reasonable to assume that if they ban me because I make adverse but constructive comments about the organisation anyone doing the same is going to get banned. This is not democracy.
I have done a great deal at local and national level to help our hobby and this is my reward. Its neither fair, just or right by any standard. Perhaps its a case of members must be tolerated for the membership money but not heard. Its hardly surprising that membership numbers have been on a downward drift for years.
Do you not have the right of 'pleading your case' to the MPBA to clarify your comments and their intention to provoke a debate?.
If you have it in writing that 'you bought the sport in to disrepute', then you may have a good case for an appeal.
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Do you not have the right of 'pleading your case' to the MPBA to clarify your comments and their intention to provoke a debate?.
If you have it in writing that 'you bought the sport in to disrepute', then you may have a good case for an appeal.
I was wondering the same??
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Apparently no right of appeal. The exec can do as they like, unless other members raise the issue its the end of the road for me. I am not a member now and therefore have no rights.
Its a bit of a kangaroo court. Not allowed to state my position or explain my comments.
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Personally I would send them a recorded Del letter stating they have 48hrs to reinstate you as a member or face court action for defamation of character etc as they have not given you the right to appeal,and furhtermore what right have they to stop you participating your chosen hobby.That to me goes against your human rights,fairenough if they feel so strongly about it,and if they so do wish issue you with a 12month ban,but by law they must give you the right of appeal and furhtermore they must be 100% correct and have proof of your so called mistermenia.
Tell them also that you will be writing to the model boat mags and all the model websites to get support and ask if they can afford the adverse publicity.
Stavros
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Letters to Marine Modelling Magazine and Model Boats are being prepared today! They have chosen the wrong person to target for I have the means and money to pursue this to the bitter end.
The MPBA Exec is going to find out that my reputation for tenacity is well founded. Thsi fight is not one of my choosing but one that I am not going to withdraw from.
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I sympathise with your situation Ernie. Unfortunately the World body for model boating, NAVIGA, will only recognise ONE national association or governing body - and in the UK that is the MPBA!
They have "cornered the market" in that, if you don't like what they say - tough!
I say "they" from a position of experience in that I spent 7 years as MPBA Midland Area and then Multi Secretary and attended MANY Executive meetings. I watched the "empire builders", some of whom had not operated a model in years, offer themselves for election with such phrases as "I don't mind standing again, if no one else wants it" and winced as the only people to prepare the "list" put forward at the AGM is ..... the executive! Woe betide any one who stood against them!!
OMRA has over 160 members who are not represented in any way by the so called "Governing body for ALL model boating in the UK".
I've been trying to get us affiliated in some way so that we too, could enter World Championships but it's hard trying to convice OMRA members that the MPBA would do anything for them!
When I hear stories like yours, it only reinforces my conviction that the Executive of the MPBA only represent themselves.
BTW You CAN get a "hearing" at an MPBA Exec Meeting - it happened to Nick Rees years ago and he was "allowed" to put his case.
Danny
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***Moderators note***
Although Ernie has gone to great care to carefully word his post, the Moderators have been asked to pay particular
attention that this topic doesn't descend into anything personal, defamatory or other thoughtlessness.
What do you want from your MPBA?
***name corrected***
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Thanks for bringing a bit of light relief Tiger - er - who's "Eddie" {:-{ :} :}
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This is not personal at all nor would I wish it to be so lets leave the personalities out of it.
Theres a lot more to it; Tommorrow theres an EGM of the MPBA fast electric section to discuss the future of the section given recent problems. One of the topics is election of a new Chairman.
I have a lot of support in the north and was going to be nominated for the position but one of the MPBA national exec was not at all happy to hear that. Refusing my membership simply means those who wanted me as chairman cannot have me. In effect the exec have prevented the members from nominating someone of their choosing.
Dirty politics isnt it.
Ernie Lazenby
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Thanks for bringing a bit of light relief Tiger - er - who's "Eddie" {:-{ :} :}
Oops.
Ernie
My above post also corrected.
Thanks for picking that up
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Dirty politics isn't it.
And there is the problem with these type of organisations.
Don't want change as they might be required to do something.
So if you face doesn't fit then..........sorry no room at the inn
Unfortunately this is not a localised thing to model boats
but spreads to other and larger organisations <:( <:(
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Ernie
I have just seen the MPBA homepage
http://www.mpba.org.uk/ (http://www.mpba.org.uk/)
you're certainly ruffling some feathers somewhere!!
The last paragraph has a particularly 'uncomfortable' sound to it!
There are many totally different sections within the MPBA - tethered, straight running, multi, F electic, circuit and, of course, the biggest - scale. All of the Secretaries are familiar with their own disciplines but seem to be worried that 'general' rules which may effect theie section will be made by followers of the more 'fringe' categories. I feel that there is also the attitude that "newer" disciplines do not have the same status as "older" sections and will only encourage undesirables, thus ruining a "well respected" hobby!
I wish you success in your EGM, remember the REAL "power" in any section is the SECRETARY, who attends the MPBA Exec meetings, not the Chairman.
Danny
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Thanks Danny. Ruffling feather most certainly trying to get the MPBA Exec to follow its own rules on proceedure.
You wont believe it but its true the Agenda for the Fast Electric Section EGM sent out to FE members is 'The way forward' All encompassing but saying nothing about the major trouble in the section resulting in an EGM being called. On top of that it says election of Chairman but no information about nominees etc as required byt he rules I think. The members are being asked to attend an extra ordinary general meeting but have no idea what they are going to hear or vote on- a complete shambles.
I wont be there because I am not a member. The MPBA Exec committee members are going to run the meeting not the section members!
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I wont be there because I am not a member. The MPBA Exec committee members are going to run the meeting not the section members!
Does your Membership expire 31st Dec 2008?..
You should be there to put your case forward... even if you get kicked out of the meeting, at least the other members will know what is happening.
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Ernie
I have just happened upon this thread and have to say that I am absolutely horrified at the treatment that has been meted out to you.
I'm only a manufacturer in this industry, and have no affiliations to any of the Associations, or their respective memberships. What I do know is that when I think of model power boats, I automatically think of you, and well remember quite a few happy weekends spent in company at the Windermere Steamboat Museum, and me being totally in awe of your models.
I don't know if there is anything that I can do to help your plight, I suspect not, (if there is please contact me), but please do be assured that you have my full personal support, and I also suspect the support of many others from all quarters of this hobby.
I shall watch the model boat magazines with interest.
My best regards
Malcolm Reade
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Hi. I did not renew my membership for 2008 primarily because the MPBA Insurance refused to cover my Gas Turbine powered K7 Bluebird model. Its pure jet thrust; apparently if it was a turbo prop with a prop in the water then I would be covered. I joined the MFA because its insurance covered my GT and all my FE boats. Just another strange rule.
I have had a friend check something and the MPBA rules only cover the proceedure for kicking someone out who brings the organisation into disrepute. I have not done that but in any event my adverse comments were made some time ago under a previous regime and they did not even mention it to me let alone warn me I coul;d get kicked out.
The current illuminarti are using something from some time ago to refuse my application to re join. Its for political reasons and it stinks.
My supporters who are going to the meeting intend to raise the issue and are checking to see if indeed the MPBA exec can block my nomination.
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Ernie
I have just happened upon this thread and have to say that I am absolutely horrified at the treatment that has been meted out to you.
I'm only a manufacturer in this industry, and have no affiliations to any of the Associations, or their respective memberships. What I do know is that when I think of model power boats, I automatically think of you, and well remember quite a few happy weekends spent in company at the Windermere Steamboat Museum, and me being totally in awe of your models.
I don't know if there is anything that I can do to help your plight, I suspect not, (if there is please contact me), but please do be assured that you have my full personal support, and I also suspect the support of many others from all quarters of this hobby.
I shall watch the model boat magazines with interest.
My best regards
Malcolm Reade
Thanks Malcolm your comments help. I think people like yourself recognise what I did to help and support our hobby. One thing is for sure the MPBA exec have not heard the last of this.
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"The MPBA Exec committee members are going to run the meeting not the section members!"
Actually that won't happen. I will be attending this EGM and have been informed by the NEC Chairman that following an opening address, it will then be up to the section members to elect a Chairman and forward looking committee.
Having said that I feel that so much damage has now been done to the section that it may well be a good few years before it is back on track. We may squabble at times but then to quote a well known UK supplier to the country's fast electric modellers 'you only squabble because you care about your hobby.'
Ian.
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Hi Ian I dont want to contradict that but before the section can start the process to elect a committee someone has to Chair the meeting and because the section no longer has a Chairman it seems one of the MPBA exec will have to chair the meeting until the election process has been completed. In view of the highly unpleasant situations that resulted in the past Chairman resigning that is the only sensible course of action. A chairman independant of the section to start the meeting can only be the way to go forward. The EGM has been called because of the dire state of the section and great care is needed to make sure its handled correctly from the outset.
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I know that this is not the way you want to go but could you not join an Affiliated Club as per the Mpba List , would that not give you entitlement to enter competitions etc.? also what is the N.E.C the site mentions.
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I am a full member of an affiliated club but apparently thats not sufficient for me to be allowed into the National championships. You have to be a member of the MPBA.
It has been suggested in a PM that my membership of an affilaited club is sufficient qualification to be nominated for Chair of the FE section?
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I have just read the last couple of posts and have a question?
Ernie is not allowed to race although he is a member of one of the clubs affiliated to the MPBA
as he is not a personal member of the MPBA. what is the point of being an affiliated club if you
cannot get full usage of the MPBA unless you have a personal membership.
I am sorry but if the above is correct then it STINKS your club gets affiliated then it should
get the right to take part in the competitions that are organised. I could understand that
as there is so many clubs and members having a limited number of people from each club taking
part (the club has a race to see who it nominates to send to the championships) but to
not allow them to take part is wrong I believe
Colin
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Ernie,
Would it be possible to set up a rival MPB organisatiion - call it something the the 'The Real Model Power Boat Association' ??
Remember, don't get mad, get even!
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Colin
I fully agree with you there but it must be an affiliated thing , My wife is a member of her local outdoor swimming club which is affiliated to both the ASA and BLDSA (swimming organisations) the club runs their events under either of the 2 depending on the type of event BUT to enter specific events organised by the other 2 organisations they have to also join that as well !! I personally would have said to be a member of an affiliated club is fine , however it appears not..
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Colin
I fully agree with you there but it must be an affiliated thing , My wife is a member of her local outdoor swimming club which is affiliated to both the ASA and BLDSA (swimming organisations) the club runs their events under either of the 2 depending on the type of event BUT to enter specific events organised by the other 2 organisations they have to also join that as well !! I personally would have said to be a member of an affiliated club is fine , however it appears not..
then why get affiliated to these types of organisations, what is the point
I join an organisation to get the use of it.
I feel these organisations do very little for the people they are meant to help
All these associations should think about what it is giving to the clubs and what it is there to do.
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I can only think it has something to do with Insurance, it seems to be just accepted. :((
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Hi Ernie,
Glad to see that you're still with us..........
I go along with Mal Reade on this one we did spend many fabulous weekends on the big lake at Windermere and at at Brid I seem to remember.
Fight your corner and don't let these petty little Hitlers get you down. The MPBA has been full of them for years, which is why I like the idea of forming an alternative organisation.
As far as I'm aware, being in club which is affiliated only gives you insurance cover.
As you can see I would never be a member of the MPBA, or any other organisation for that matter, for anything as they are a breeding ground for jumped up, selfserving a*** h****, in most cases anyway.
LB
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The afiliated clubs dervie no benefit from the MPBA. My club Darlington & District Model Boat club has its own Insurance covering the members and committee against third party risks.
Theres really only two reasdons for being a member oif the MPBA
1. It provides third party insurance for individual members. Affiliated clubs are not covered just the individuals who pay the individual membership fee.
2. MPBA nationls is ther only way one can qualify for a Naviga Wiorld Championship.
Other than that theres little else.
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May I put in my two penneth, and suggest that you seek a meeting at the next "surgery" with your local MP, and also make the incedent known to your area MEP (Member of the European Parliament)
This is a gross infringment upon your legal, civil and democratic liberties by a dictatorial group/individual and as such is Discrimination at grass routes level.
Both your local and area MP/MEP have far reaching legal clout which only you and I could dream about, and although most of us wonder what we pay for and vote for, it is at these times when you find that they CAN and DO help, and it is amazing how a letter in the first inst. to the offending bodies has a profound effect.
best of luck to you, Neil. >>:-( >>:-(
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2. MPBA nationls is ther only way one can qualify for a Naviga Wiorld Championship.
Stupid question I know, but Why in reference to point 2
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"We all know this subject is a hot topic and and we don't want Mayhem to be known as 'anti MPBA', therefore
we'll allow open posts until midnight Sunday to allow anyone to have their say and then lock the topic."
( Normal moderation rules apply. )
Martin - Mayhem
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Martin, Could I ask for an extra days grace so it were for this thread.
The EGM that has been spoken of does not take place till tomorrow and
this would than allow the outcome and both parties involved time to put a reply
together (should they wish) afterwards
Colin
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Martin
I don't think that anybody who has posted on this thread thus far has really been about MPBA bashing? Perhaps just a tad?
Ernie has contributed massively to this hobby over many years, and is recognised both for his published articles and his tireless contributions to the hobby in general. He also happens to be a very decent, likeable and honest bloke.
Banning Ernie Lazenby from the MPBA in my own humble opinion, is akin to banning God from Heaven - (but as you yourself would say, "What do I know")?
Malc
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"We all know this subject is a hot topic and and we don't want Mayhem to be known as 'anti MPBA', therefore
we'll allow open posts until midnight Sunday to allow anyone to have their say and then lock the topic."
( Normal moderation rules apply. )
Martin - Mayhem
Martin with the greatest respect to you for the excellent job you do this forum is one of very few places where mature debate/discussion can take place. If what has been done can be done to me it can be done to anyone be they member or possible member of the MPBA. I dont think its MPBA bashing to allow a discussion on something so fundemental as the basic right of a person to be a member of his national organisation.
Even more important is the right of a member of the national organisation to pass reasoned judgement on that organisation without worrying about being thrown out or banned. To cut short this debate is in its way doing exactly the same thing as what the MPBA has done to me.
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Im no expert on the organisation in question's regulations but, as I understand AGM \ EGM meeting's, a person can normally attend who isnt a member. Obviously they cant speak on any matter unless the meeting invites them to but, I dont think they can legally 'ban' any one from attending, closed association or not.
Good luck!
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There are two ways to have membership of the MPBA. One is to join through an affiliated club, the other is to have personal membership of the MPBA Countrywide Club which is intended for people without a local affiliated club. There are a lot of affiliated clubs who only have a proportion of their members who are also members of the MPBA. The MPBA membership enables them to participate in MPBA official/sponsored events and gives an entree into international competition as only one association from each country is recognised by international organisations like NAVIGA. It also gives members insurance cover. Your club may be affiliated but MPBA membership is an optional personal thing. Many people don't feel the need for it although I have always continued my membership as a way of supporting the wider interests of the hobby.
I have been saddened to read of the preceding posts. These sort of disputes have arisen from time to time in the past in one section or another but wiser heads usually prevail and they do get resolved. Obviously the important thing is to get a resolution to the problem by sensible discussion rather than pouring petrol on the flames.
I'm not sure to what extent the modelling magazines will want to get involved in this sort of discussion, they usually prefer to stay well away in these circumstances and who can blame them.
Colin
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There is of course another worrying factor and that is that some people have declared that this forthcoming EGM was called unconstitutionally and therefor is not legal. Those members who are attending at their own expense to try to sort the situation out and attempt to move forward may well find that after the event these 'people' will say that any or all of the decisions made are null and void and we will be back in the doldrums again.
I think I'll take up embroidery and finish with fast electrics!.................... <:(
Cheers,
Ian.
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Colin I agree with much of what you have said but the option of discussion with those in charge has been denied me by a letter refusing my membership.
They have made a mistake if they think I will let this pass. One of the benefits of working as a Solicitors Clerk after I retired is I have freely available legal advice and suffice to say this evening I sought such. My character has been attacked and I have been advised to get in writing the specific details of the alleged behaviour warranting me being banned and also a written refernce to the relevant MPBA rules which have governed this action. My lawyer also wants written confirmation that the previous exec committee members took no action against me when my adverse comments about the MPBA appeared in print. He points out it is not for the current occupiers of the positions to applly retropsective sanctions.
Thereafter the information will be passed to those with the nounce as to the way to proceed. This may cost me money but I am not going to let it pass; its perhaps time that a festering boil should be lanced.
I am very reluctant to go down this route with volunteers in a hobby but what option do I have. At the very least I should have a written apology for the attack on my character. :(( Any costs involved by the MPBA ultimately come out of the members pockets!
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There is of course another worrying factor and that is that some people have declared that this forthcoming EGM was called unconstitutionally and therefor is not legal. Those members who are attending at their own expense to try to sort the situation out and attempt to move forward may well find that after the event these 'people' will say that any or all of the decisions made are null and void and we will be back in the doldrums again.
I think I'll take up embroidery and finish with fast electrics!.................... <:(
Cheers,
Ian.
100% correct. It has not been dealt with in acordance with the MPBA's own rules. Sadly Sundays meeting is not going to be the end of all this.
It is very sad that all these recent events in FE racing have taken place but its been a longtime brewing due to persoanlity clashes and it is very sad that it it dispirits people like Ian who I call a friend and who is a long time faithfull servant to the hobby. My persoanl difficulties are only one small facet of the ongoing problems in the section.
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Leovilla, my post was intended to simply explain the nature of MPBA membership as some people on here appear to be unclear about it. I have no wish to become involved in the dispute myself.
I would however say that, while I sympathise with your predicament and wish you every luck with obtaining an unbiased hearing, I don't see how airing on Mayhem the precise details of how you intend to seek a remedy serves any real useful purpose. As you will have seen from earlier posts, most Mayhem members are not MPBA members and are therefore unfamiliar with that organisation's constitution and rules. Apart from offering general sympathy they are not in a position to actually advance your cause unlike the your supporters within the organisation to whom you refer. Martin is anxious that Mayhem is not drawn into the dispute on the backs of member comments which are perhaps generalised and may not be seen as helpful to the resolution of the situation if more widely quoted.
The only way the dispute will be resolved is within the MPBA itself and I really do hope that it will reach a satisfactory conclusion.
Colin
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Colin I accept what you say but my motives in airing this whole subject is to try and get those who serve the hobby as officials to listen to its members for once. I know that many members of the MPBA read this forum and who support all facets of model boating. Its been very clear for a long time that the organisation is disfunctional, and thats not to point the finger at any one individual for that serves no purpose; I know for a fact however there is a closed mind attitude towards members views and they take a bad view of anyone who asks questions.
If this debate serves to provoke a wider debate then it has served a purpose.
The purpose of these forums is to air issues that concern those involved in the hobby/sport and in many ways are the only way those members can air their views! Propwash, the official MPBA newsletter does not serve that purpose.
If anyone feels I should not have raised the issue in the first place then I apologise if it offends them.
Ernie Lazenby
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Unfortunately, in any association which relies on members volunteering to give up time and money to 'govern' the hobby, there will always be 'ulterior' motives for some people offering to serve. The NEC have such members and although they are (theoretically) working to improve the Association can, and do, often get sidetracked from important issues with petty 'differences'. There is nothing worse than a model boater who is vehemently against another model boat discipline - more so than if they were 'passing judgement' on a person involved in a completely different hobby!
The MPBA is LARGE and diverse, and it is this very diversity which causes problems occasionally. A serious difficulty seems that, very often, the NEC are not even aware of any problems until they get out of hand! There is NO mechanism for feedback apart from individual NEC members bringing comments back from meetings with members. But where do these meetings happen - at the side of the lake with maybe a few of the section followers.
It would be nice if ordinary people (not necessarily MPBA members) had some way of expressing their views and what they want from a National association supposedly representing them. It seems that the only way of expressing concerns is to "vote with your feet" and not join/rejoin but this defeats the object in that the NEC STILL do not know what the problem is!
This is where the Mayhem forum is invaluable. Were it not for this, many of us would not even be aware of Ernie's difficulties, much less be able to comment on them!
Given the circulation of such magazines as Model Boats and Marine Modeller, one would expect the membership of the only 'official' National body to have memberships of many thousands. Perhaps the MPBA, who have been given the recognition of being the governing body, should ask themselves why many model boaters refuse, or can't be bothered, to join?
Obviously I have my own reasons for not renewing my membership and do not propose to air them here, but it is a great disappointment that there is no way to express my feelings. One suggestion may be to hold MPBA "surgeries" where questions from ex/potential members could be answered by someone in "authority" (even an MPBA forum may prove invaluable).
Ernie, I hope you will keep us informed of proceedings as the outcome may effect or interest many of us.
Danny
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Danny, I think the idea of the MPBA establishing its own Internet Forum is an excellent one. That way we wouldn't have to rely upon third party media to carry the message.
I do know that the Editor of Model Boats has offered space to the MPBA to promote their interests and news but it has not been taken up which I think is a matter for regret. My own hobby is scale model boating and it is evident that interest in this within the MPBA has fallen right away in recent years but I think that this is simply because many modellers have moved away from competitive regattas in favour of free sailing events.
I think that both you and Ernie are right in that the MPBA has rather lost its original role in some areas and needs to have a rethink on how it could better represent the hobby. I agree that Propwash, although taking a good deal of well meaning effort to produce, probably doesn't meet the needs of the membership as well as it could. I certainly would agree that the MPBA needs a much stronger online presence and a Forum attached to their website should breathe new life into the organisation. Of course they'd need much stricter moderators than we have here on mayhem... %)
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Of course they'd need much stricter moderators than we have here on mayhem... %)
Said he. (Speaking from the dark side...) {-)
Malc
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Plenty of light up here Malc... :} :} :}
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Plenty of light up here Malc... :} :} :}
Up? Really? {-) {-) {-)
Malc
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"We all know this subject is a hot topic and and we don't want Mayhem to be known as 'anti MPBA', therefore
we'll allow open posts until midnight Sunday to allow anyone to have their say and then lock the topic."
( Normal moderation rules apply. )
Martin - Mayhem
Martin,
By definition a Forum is a place for open debate. If leovilla had offered obscenities, personal abuse or any comment that could lead to action for libel, then by all means lock the subject.
However, he has done none of these. He has stated his case, clarified points raised and responded to other postings. If others wish to put opposing views then the means is open to them right here.
The task of a Moderator is to arbitrate and be impartial without fear of offending any party while at the same time defending the right to free speech. To state any intention of locking the subject because it might provoke criticism from other quarters is censorship plain and simple.
Regards
Barry M
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I agree wholeheartedly with BarryM`s post. MPBA should be made aware that this topic is being discussed here in an open forum where democracy rules. They are free to post another side of the story if they wish. It will not be seen to anti anything if Mayhem allows free and unfettered discussion on all matters model boating. >:-o
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I too have no problems with civilised and reasoned debate even where strong views are held, look at the recent one on weathering for example. However, if you look back on this topic you will see a lot of comments by people who don't have a clue what the MPBA is about and wouldn't join it anyway but still feel that they have a "right" to an opinion. There are also a number of generalisations such as references to "little Hitlers". These comments add nothing to the debate, inflame feelings and simply smack of individuals wishing to join in any dust up that's going.
Ernie is clearly unhappy about the way he has been treated but he has not resorted to over the top ranting, he has set out his views in a reasoned manner. I just wish some of the other posters had done the same instead of reacting in such a predictable knee jerk manner. That way there might actually be some chance of resolving the problem rather than polarising it. If MPBA NEC members are indeed following this topic i don't think they would be very impressed with the standard of debate with many people not even trying to get their facts straight but piling in regardless.
I still don't think Mayhem is the right platform for commenting on internal MPBA matters but I do accept the point made by Ernie and others that as the MPBA doesn't have an online Forum then it may be the next best thing.
If you have something constructive and useful to say based on a bit of knowledge of the subject then say it, otherwise best to keep quiet.
Colin
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Colin is 100% correct. Please do not get personal about any individual. Comment on the fundamental principles at stake.
I would welcome comment from one of the National Executive officers but it may be a tad difficult for them to do so in the circumstances; for that reason i have stuck to the facts and not embellished anything.
The meeting today may result in something positive as far as the FE section is concerned but I doubt my position will be resolved today.
Later this evening I will be getting an update on the meeting and will post comments.
You may want to know that the MPBA Fast Electric Section has its own Forum sanctioned by the MPBA, currently anyone can log on and join it but in the very near future it will be restricted to MPBA members only something I agree with.
I have one problem with that forum, I am banned from registering on it! Yes is true- banned before I have done or said anything on it- democracy?
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"you will see a lot of comments by people who don't have a clue what the MPBA is about and wouldn't join it anyway but still feel that they have a "right" to an opinion."
I do believe that that is the bedrock of "Democracy" and what two world wars were fought for, Colin. {:-{
The freedom of speech in this country is more valuable than all the jewels in the world, and from what I have heard from Ernie, HE is being totally stifled! >>:-( >>:-(
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A good starting point is to view the constitution. As it does not appear to be on the website where can one view the MPBA constitution?
I would suspect that, similar to the Swedish organisation, what may be disciplined/punished and how is well laid out. Here disciplinary measures range from a letter to disqualification. The maximum period of disqualification is one year, this is only from taking part in competition or displays within the Swedish organisation. There is nothing that allows them to deny membership.
Maybe the most important thing is that any incident likely to cause an issue must be reported within a set period of time from the alleged offence or there can be no action. There is also a system of appeal built in.
Let me just say that I find a denial of membership to be undemocratic. I find denial of appeal undemocratic.
Any organisation that cannot bear and reply to criticism needs to look seriously at the way it is run and administered.
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I too have no problems with civilised and reasoned debate even where strong views are held, look at the recent one on weathering for example. However, if you look back on this topic you will see a lot of comments by people who don't have a clue what the MPBA is about and wouldn't join it anyway but still feel that they have a "right" to an opinion. There are also a number of generalisations such as references to "little Hitlers". These comments add nothing to the debate, inflame feelings and simply smack of individuals wishing to join in any dust up that's going.
Colin
Colin,
By all means delete the remarks of those who have overstepped the mark intentionally or unintentionally - I don't think too many would quarrel with that - but as far as I can see, leovilla has made his point without resort to such.
Usually my bovine excreta detection alarm starts ringing when people talk about 'rights' while overlooking 'responsibilities' but if freedom of opinion is to be curtailed because of the risk of upsetting somebody or something whose back should be broad enough to stand up to criticism, then we are heading down the wrong road.
Closer to home, I have both agreed and disagreed with Bryan Young on this forum to the point where I am sure we have both muttered to ourselves about the '**!!'%***' who knows *%!%!&!!** . That would not stop me offering to buy him a pint if we met; we each have our say and that's that. I wouldn't expect him to be censored for fear it would offend somebody and vice versa. The principle is the same.
Regards
Barry M
PS I can't believe I've offered to buy a Geordie a pint; must be getting old. :o
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Neil, there is a difference between free speech and what is akin to rabble rousing. If you want an opinion to be taken seriously then it should be well argued from a knowledge of the facts. Also we need to be looking at what this topic is trying to achieve. Ernie wanted to air his situation on Mayhem because he feels he is not being given the opportunity to do so through what might be deemed the "proper channels". I can understand that having now heard more of the circumstances. His object is to get a "fair hearing" with a view to having the decision to terminate his MPBA membership rescinded. The best chance of that, as he makes quite clear himself, is to present his arguments in a dispassionate, objective and non personalised way and he has done this. People coming in with the attitude "Yeah, Ernie, we're with you all the way mate, these control freaks need to be taught a lesson!" are damaging his case by association and simply giving an excuse to those who are opposed to Ernie to discount the arguments he is making.
I am not in a position to take sides as I have not read Ernie's original comments nor related them to the MPBA Constitution which I have got stashed away somewhere. At the moment we have only heard from Ernie and it would certainly be interesting and useful to have a response from the MPBA on what basis his membership has been denied. Natural justice certainly requires that there should be a fair hearing and right of appeal. I don't think the MPBA website is all that brilliant but I think that stems from the fact that they have problems in getting people to take on these jobs. Maybe some of us should offer our services to help out in that respect rather than standing on the sidelines running things down. I think we also need to bear in mind that we are taliking about problems in one MPBA Section only here and it sounds as if some action is taking place today which will shift the situation one way or another. Maybe we sould await the outcome of this emergency section meeting and see how things go from there.
Colin
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Barry, thanks for you comments. By posting my own views on the topic in ordinary member mode I cannot be seen to moderate it in any way. Other Mods are monitoring it though! :police:
Colin
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Colin. The remarks that have got me banned were nothing more than these;
I said that in many ways the MPBA had ceased to serve much purpose and was disfunctional in the way it operates. I went on to say that it needed an overhaul to bring it into the 21st century if it was to thrive instead of withering on the vine. At no time did I attack any official of the MPBA.
A small example. In seeking to find out the origins of a practice I spoke to then general secretary and asked if the records could be checked. The reply was interesting to say the least- no records were available. (At that time I was the secretary of the FE section).
Theres much more but I think you get the picture.
Ernie.
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I certainly agree with Colin's reasoning and feel that we should await the outcome of the EGM.
In the meantime, I would be interested in feedback from Mayhem members, who probably cover more 'areas' of model boating than any organisation, what they feel is necessary (or desirable) from a National Association. If this too, is presented in an objective way, as the current debate is, it may be possible that current officers of the MPBA may read and consider the suggestions.
As Colin says, please do not personalise things - or respond in a tabloid headline manner.
My "wish list" would be -
1. Representation - in all aspects of model boating, with no particular 'aspect' being missed or deliberately ignored. This would be to all bodies and oranisations from a local council trying to ban a boat club to true representation on NAVIGA. I realise that much of this is already carried out but I would wish it to be far more unbiased.
2. Governance - fair, impartial and properly executed rules which comply with current legal practice whilst addressing basic human rights and responsibilities.
3. Insurance - most clubs and sections carry their own insurance which has usually been obtained at a lower cost than the one offered to MPBA members. Surely, with strength of numbers, it should be the other way round. If it were (and should be) so cheap that clubs could not 'undercut' the cost, this would encourage MPBA membership. There is also the thorny question of "double indemnity" where, if you have club AND MPBA insurance it is possible that, in the event of a claim, NEITHER company will pay out!
4. National competitions - again, this is something already carried out, but without equality. Some sections have excellent Championships, other are hardly catered for at all. I also realise that some members do not take part in any competitions, therefore the administration and expense should be proportional to those that wish to participate.
5. Communications - mention has already been made of the creation of an MPBA forum. Propwash would also benefit from an update with a bit more "pzzazz" (you know what I mean). The biggest issue I have is that almost ALL communication is very introverted and only gets through to the current members. In it's own interests, the MPBA should try to reach NON members. An informative and INTERESTING website would help here. Some may know that, with no knowledge of websites, I took on the role of OMRA webmaster. It seems to have been fairly well received and OMRA membership is certainly on the way up. I can't maintain two so will not be offering the MPBA my services but I stand as proof that, if I can do it, then any non-IT person could master it! I also feel that more could be done by the modelling press. A request for information or an article is not the same as actually looking for a "story".
I don't think any of these suggestions are revolutionary and most are already covered to a greater or lesser degree but I think that the ideas may benefit the MPBA if they carry out a good (and much needed) analysis of what the association is 'all about'.
Danny
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What happened to the concept of a Quorum (a minimum representative cross-section of membership) having to be present before a VOTE on any issue could be taken? It used to work well for most clubs and associations and ensured some basis for democratic decision making?
In light of what appears to be happening, that concept seems to have been overlooked somehow?
Malc
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Some good points there Danny. The only further comment I would make at the moment is regarding insurance. There is another thread on here somewhere which related to the Beale Park events and threw up some interesting variations on the type of insurance provided to clubs. It seems that in some cases your club insurance will only cover you for club events or sailing on the recognised club water. Fine if all your sailing is local but not so good if you want to visit elsewhere. MPBA and MYA Insurance is particular to the member and is also useful if you belong to the MPBA as an individual and not through a club. Insurers are a funny lot with all sorts of weird restrictions for no apparent reason. I've just had to change my house contents insurance to another provider because the previous one doesn't do retired people. Club insurance may frequently be all you need, but do check the small print as insurers will use it to weasel out of their obligations in many instances. (Probably as a result of a lot of people putting in false claims!)
Colin
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I have had some feed back from todays EGM; Its appears the section survives but my nomination was blocked by the MPBA Executive officers on the basis I am not a member. The politics I referred to earlier.
I find it a less than ideal state of affairs that the one person who precipitated the removel/resignation of the previous section Chairman has himself, suppoorted by his own club wo attended in numbers, been elected the new Chairman. These two people had been part of the cause for the meeting. I guess thats democracy at work you just make sure you have your supporters turn up in suffcient numbers. Its pretty certain that this appointment will not heal the rift with the south east members of the racing community many of whom have left or are leaving the MPBA.
My positioin has not been resolved because it was not discussed because I am not a member. I will be pursuing my case against the MPBA simply because I believe in natural justice and what has been done to me is certainly not that.
I suggest the Moderators lock this thread now and I thank them for allowing it to run a little longer than they initially wanted.
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As proposed by Martin, Admin. and at the request of the original poster this topic has now been locked.
Roger in France
Moderator