Model Boat Mayhem
Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => Engineering Techniques and Materials. => Topic started by: ian kennedy on January 22, 2009, 05:42:20 pm
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Right chaps,
I would like to buy a new sensible priced decent quality lathe and i am interested in knowing what you fellow metal workers are using, how they shape up and if they are any good.......or not ! an honest view is very welcome.
The budget is quite tight as i also have to fund a new workshop building so i have no more than about £1000 which is about the maximum i can squander.
Thread cutting is not important but i would like a power feed, no trick electronics ie variable speed unless you say it's good and size wise up to about 500mm between centres with a decent swing over the bed.
Currently i have two machines a modified peatol/taig, with riser blocks, more powerfull motor with 2 speed switch and a compound slide also i have a small belt driven jewellers/watch makers lathe, all with indexable cutters, other random tooling and accessories.....these may well be sold at a later date.....to help increase the fund for a reccomended machine.....maybe?
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Ian , i have the conquest from chester tools and for just ove £300. for their price they aint bad ,or if you want one with a mill then the model B super for just over £800.
might be the way to go .
If you want to see my lathe next time your in goole give us a ring .
daz
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depends on how big you want it. theres plenty of "mini laathes" out there. have you looked at second hand sites/dealers? as an apprentice i used a myford, hard to beat, and still used in engineering shops. my dad who was a precission engineer swears by them, in a good way.have a look through model engineer magazine.
have fun
colin
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Hi Colin and Daz,
I have looked at the Myford 7 and super 7, maybe a bit to to retro for me and a decent machine and parts are not cheap !!
Daz, i don't think i will ever be back at Goole, as you may or may not know D.Allen and myself resigned !! We just were not into sailing around in circles, it's kind of mad when one of my boats is a b****y circle.....shame really as you have some good lads and excellent models there.... but seriously thanks for your kind offer of taking a peek at your machine and all the best for the future mate !
Ian
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Have a look here http://homeworkshop.org.uk/
Regards Ian.
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Thanks Ian,
I already have this site bookmarked and check it quite often.
Cheers
Ian
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As you still have the workshop to build I assume no need to hurry. The Harrogate ME show is coming along soon where you will be able to get to try a range of sizes and makes. Probably save your bus fare and entry with a show deal too.
However if you don't need bling features like variable speed find a second hand one. 'Myford retro' {-) lathes don't need microprocessor to make them operate so a 50 year old one is just as 'modern' as needed. Myford do hold their value so not such a good deal second hand. Look for a Boxford model A preferably not ex school and your grandson will still be using it long after you have been recycled.
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Cheers Bee,
I will be at Harrogate MES, it's an annual trek for me, What i meant by retro was the Flash Gordon style look of the gear boxes on the Myford......i know they are superb quality machines, i was just wondering if many people have tried any of the chineeeeese machines sold under Chester, Warco etc?
Speaking to a proffesional manual and CNC engineer friend of mine, he said the chester type castings are made of cheese !! he has tried fitting DRO's to other customers machines and some of the castings were full of imperfections and pit holes and he had to heli coil them to get fixings to hold in them.
Ian
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Ian
It obviously depends on how much you're going to use it.
I struggled in vain for years with an ML7, trying to get a bit of accuracy into what was basically a worn out lathe.
It was bought off a "friend" and I spent many 'happy' hours adjusting it when what it needed was a complete overhaul - I just couldn't afford the ludicrous spares prices. I got what I paid for it, which wasn't much, and bought a cheapy Chinese mini-lathe.
Now, bear in mind that I only use mine for the odd shaft or housing and other odds and ends, I couldn't be happier (without spending a load more).
Warco, Arco, Clarke, Chester - they're all Chinese but, until they wear out, they're bl**dy accurate! The castings may be "cheese" and, no doubt, the headraces are made of rubber, but for what I need, mine's great.
You already appear to know what you're doing on the tooling side which I think is much more important.
How on earth can you turn, drill and polish all at the same speed?? I love just being able to twiddle the knob and set the speed just right. It may lose a bit of torque at low revs but it's worth it.
If turning is your hobby, spend as much as you can on the equipment but if it's just a means to an end for a different hobby, spend only as much as you need, then you can squander invest the rest on your main hobby.
Danny
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My lathe is Chinese, sold here in Australia under the Hafco brand (Hare & Forbes, a large supplier to the engineering trade). It is accurate, and reasonably priced, mine cost the equivalent of 400 pounds UK. There is also a model available now with a quick change gear box for very little more. It weighs about 93 kg, and came with 3 and 4 jaw chucks, travelling steady, tool box, change gears and face plate.
Peter.
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I have to say that Chester and Warco are fine and a good price (looks the same as your's Peter) and the advantage is thay do come with a few bits (chuck etc) so you would not have to spen a fortune on additions (fixed and travelling steadys) So worth having a close look at harrogate.
A second hand (good) myford would be over the £1000 mark and then you have to start adding on all the nice toys (having costed up mine which has all the whistles and bells, for insurance, I nearly fainted---thinking of selling it and buying a motor cruiser, a new house, new car new------well you get the picture :-))
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Hi Ian,
I have much experience in workshop equipment and am currently building a 5" loco I purchased a new lathe and milling machine last year at the Ally Pally Show and delved into every machine out there. Myford are expensive and I don't think you will find a good secondhand ML7 or Super7 for under £1500 then you will need all the attachments which are also expensive you could consider an ML10 a smaller machine but hard to come by as most people don't part with them so that will leave you to look at the Chinese ones. Chester http://www.chesteruk.net/ and Warco http://www.warco.co.uk/index.aspx are produced by the same factory in China but both have different levels of quality control. If you talk to most model engineers they will recommend Warco they are built to a closer tolerance and have a better finish Warco have a permanent guy in the factory inspecting machines and quality control all there machines come with a tolerance certificate.
I have a variable speed lathe again some people told me to keep away from them and to buy the manual lever type but talking with both Chester and Warco it's a myth about the circuit boards blowing and if your not sure what speed you need to run your work at you can then just turn up the dial.
What are you planning to turn if it's only small parts the small Chester or Warco will do fine I have owned a Chester Conquerer and it was a great little machine it will all depend on what your going to swing in the chuck and the length of the bed for long items.
The most used lathe I have is a little gem it's all British and I just love it for turning parts up to about 2" although it will turn bigger and that's a Cowells ME90 http://www.cowells.com/quote.htm these little lathes are the RollsRoyce of small lathes most clock makers use them and the feel when working with one is amazing. They are expensive but these will last a life time they will fit into a cupboard and work can be done on the kitchen table I have seen these on Ebay go between £300 and £500 with accessories I can post pictures of my work done on this little lathe although they have nothing to do with boats!
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Hi Phil,
would you take a club 500, dolls house and an MGB GT dinky toy in exchange? {-) {-) {-)
Keep the advice comming lads, i'm getting ideas about who and what to look for at Harrogate in May !!
Cheers
Ian
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What you can do when you go to Harrogate is barter with Chester and Warco never pay the price on the machine I got a good sum off my machines last year as they don't want to loose the sale. You can also make an offer on the machine at the show as they do not want to take it back but you will so take an estate car {-)
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What a lovely clean lathe Peter,
I was feeling guilty about the grubby state of mine then I realised - it's new - you've just unwrapped it - I can see the plastic {-) {-)
Danny
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Having used many types of lathe in my years of engineering and model engineering, the choice of lathe is purely personal.
On the secondhand market, Boxord UD series always comes to the fore, rock solid, bomb proof and built to last, and can be purchased fairly reasonably for a basic machine.
The Myford has a vast following, you can get almost anything for it (if you have the cash), but is a bit dated in design, somewhere between 60's & 70's, and if purchased new, v-e-r-y expensive.
The flavour of the year, and one to definitely be considered within your budget are the SIEG C4 clones.
http://www.chesteruk.net/store/comet_variable_speed_lathe_450mm.htm
http://www.mini-lathe.com/m4/C4/c4.htm
These are taking the model engineers into realms they haven't had before for the low cost of these machines. Large variable constant torque motors, power feeds, including cross feed and very rigid build qualities.
I have an American friend who has just purchased one and he is raving over it, he can't believe he has got so much for so little.
I took the plunge last year and changed over to far eastern machinery, OK a little larger than you are looking at. Build quality is a bit rough in some places (no body filler used in these machines, as in the likes of expensive British machines), just square castings, but they are very accurate and easy to service or repair. I can make 100 parts, and they would all be within 0.001" tolerance of each other.
John
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What a lovely clean lathe Peter,
I was feeling guilty about the grubby state of mine then I realised - it's new - you've just unwrapped it - I can see the plastic {-) {-)
Not quite new, Danny, I've had it about 3 years.
And here was I thinking I was supposed to keep it clean :-) , hence the plastic cover. Oh well, I'll just have to let it get dirty so it looks like a real one {-)
Peter.
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Hi all
I started with a 2nd hand myford ml7 but the cost of the spare parts, things like a gearbox cost more than a new Chinese lathe so it had to go and a new Warco lathe was on its way.The Chinese lathes are getting better as time goes by, I looked at a friends axminster the same lathe just a different colour which he had been using for a year or so and when mine came it had a few improvements on it which he has made to his now. I'm very happy with mine.
spud
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Thanks chaps,
There are so many to choose from, i went to look at a myford today......stupid money for a worn out and bodged machine.....It would seem that badge engineering is creeping into model engineering now, just because it was a myford Super 7 he thought he could ask top whack for it.........needless to say i walked away after i said it would cost about £400+ to make it good and accurate again.
I am looking at a 20+ year old boxford tomorrow and a new SIEG C4 on Tuesday, i will let you know if i have found the right machine, but keep the ideas comming please as a well known retail giant keeps saying Every little helps !
Thanks
Ian
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Thats the problem nowadays Ian , these people think they can ask full whack for the old school gear .
There was a myford 10 for sale up the road from me last year and at £700 i thought it was a bit steep but worth a look , this machine had been left out for god knows how long and then a liberal coat of red oxide applied to everything , the bed was pitted and the rest of it was rust under the paint , no motor or tools and the chuck would need serious attention . all in all it would need over a grand spending to get it running ,and thats if the bed could be ground .
Aparently this machine was mint before it was forgotten.
On the other hand if A.B.P. still want to sell it they have a 9 foot bed lathe in the old shipyard workshop 3 phase and tools ,
a bit big for me and heavy , about 3 tons no price .
daz
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Ian when I was doen at the Ali Pali show last wekend I dragged Steam Boat phil around to have a look at the Chester tools stand as I am also in the market for a new lathe,we had a look at this
http://www.chesteruk.net/store/conquest_lathe_super.htm
As Phil said to me you could easily build a steam engine with one of these,I wish I has digital thingy's on my tools slide,now what on earth he was implying lord only knows but hey you cant go wrong on the price
Stav
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Cheers Stav,
Chester machines are on my list for the Harrogate show in may, i believe they have demo machines so i may just try before i buy !!
Ian
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My lathe is Chinese, sold here in Australia under the Hafco brand (Hare & Forbes, a large supplier to the engineering trade). It is accurate, and reasonably priced, mine cost the equivalent of 400 pounds UK. There is also a model available now with a quick change gear box for very little more. It weighs about 93 kg, and came with 3 and 4 jaw chucks, travelling steady, tool box, change gears and face plate.
Peter.
Peter,
I'm after a lathe as well although probably not till mid year (tax refund). Can you tell me where you got yours from? Looks the go. I prefer not to spend over $1000 and have seen some pre loved units sell for in excess of that on eBay.
Your machine appears to do the job.
Any info would be appreciated including what you have turned and accuracy.
You can pm or email me if you like.
Martin du
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Just to give you an idea what to look for in your ideal lathe. This is only for people who want something a little larger than the mini-lathes.
Swing and power. If you want to always make small bits, great. But if you ever need to clean up a brake disc or drum or any other types of large swing jobs that the neighbours or friends bring along (a sure way of getting into good books and earning brownie points), having say a 4.5" swing (height over the bed) or above will come in handy, or a gap bed that will allow you to do such sizes close to the spindle. When you turn these large sizes or heavy cuts, you need power. Normally in the smaller lathe ranges, you should be looking at 3/4HP and above.
Normally bed length doesn't come into it, standard lengths will cope with most of what you do. Only if you want to do long items should you need to go for an extended bed range. The longer the bed, the less rigidity.
Spindle bore size. Get the largest one you can, the bigger the bore size, the more rigid the spindle will be, plus you can get larger jobs up the bore. 3 Morse Taper is really the smallest you should be looking for, below that, it will only have a small bore through the spindle.
A spindle speed change gearbox or variable speed is nice to have, but don't be put off by a belt and pulley system. They are usually quick and easy to change and as you gain experience, you will find you only use two or three of the range under normal conditions. The main downside is if you need to replace the belt. That usually means a complete head stripdown, but that can easily be avoided by fitting linked belts.
Quick change gearboxes for screwcutting. Don't buy a lathe just because it has a screwcutting gearbox. If it has one great, but don't be put off if it doesn't. You will find that you won't be swapping and changing screwcutting setups that often, so as long as it has the full set of gears, you set the machine up for fine feed cuts and only change the gears when you want to carry out single point threading. If you are only ever going to use taps and dies, you will most probably find you only change your feed speeds a couple of times a year, just for doing those special jobs.
A power cross feed is definitely a thing to have if you can get it. It turns a PITA job into a breeze, and the finish on the machining makes it worthwhile.
Fixed DRO's (digital readouts) are now starting to become very popular on the newer more expensive machines. Not the little readouts you get fitted near the handles, but the glass scale ones that have a dedicated display head. You can get setups to fit to larger machines, and there are now read heads that are very small and can be fitted to rather small machinery. Having DRO's takes you into the realms of super accuracy, where you can work easily to 0.0001" or even 0.00001" if you are a masochist.
This is mine that I have fitted
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/readout.jpg)
A bit over the top for most people, but I am into precision machining, and this allows it to be done quickly and repeatable.
On the casting side, you should be looking for bulk, big and beefy. The saddle should be the same. The more rigid and heavy the setup, the better the machine will cut.
For the tailstock, a camlock is almost mandatory nowadays, it allows the tailstock to be released or locked in seconds. Also, if you can, get a tailstock that allows for setover. This will allow you to do fairly long tapered parts. 2MT or 3MT is the standard sort of sizes nowadays, and that will allow you to have all sorts of tools to be fitted into it.
If you are going for a benchtop model, make sure you DO fit it to a rigid and flat benchtop. I would recommend at least a piece of kitchen worksurface. Don't under any circumstances use it if it has rubber feet underneath, get it firmly bolted down onto something flat.
I am just doing a repair to a mini lathe that had twisted over time that I suspect was caused by that error. The fault was picked up when I came to do a machining job on the bed.
http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=627.0
That does show that small lathes can easily 'bend'.
I hope that this has helped to make things a little clearer.
John
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Great post John, and thanks for the link. There is loads of on there to interest me as a 'casual' metal player (another name for an inept engineer)!
Danny :-))
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Thanks John,
Some excellent advice and cracking looking DRO's, just out of interest how much and what machine are they fitted to please?
Cheers
Ian
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Ian,
The lathe already came with DRO's for the saddle and cross slide, and I had a spare display head from when I upgraded my mill from 2 axis to 3 axis, so I only had to buy two read scales.
This is my lathe
http://www.chesteruk.net/store/crusader_lathe.htm
But I had the vendor modify it some to allow me to get a lot more movement on the saddle, and a larger swing.
The DRO's came from here
http://www.machine-dro.co.uk/index.php?target=categories&category_id=24
But these only show the display heads, you have to factor in the cost of the read scales as well. They go from £100 each upwards, depending on the length required. So around £400 for a two axis one.
Unless you go for the Newall system, about double these prices, these are about the best you can get. You can buy cheaper setups on ebay, but they aren't up to it on quality and features, and by the time you add in import duty, just pay the little extra and go for a better system.
I had to do a fairly major setup on the tailstock, because the ram always rotates slightly, so I had to design and build a carriage system with a built in slip joint to take that out of the equation. I can now drill with the same accuracy as the other slides. I had to do that mod, as some of the work I am doing is critical on hole depth.
This is how I fitted the compound slide read head.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/compoundscale.jpg)
How I got over the rotation of the ram
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tailstockDROcarriage.jpg)
And the finished tailstock setup.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tailstock3-1.jpg)
You can set up using much cheaper equipment, but you can guarantee that you will have continuous trouble. I went down that route with my old mill, and almost every day I had to fiddle with something to get it running correctly. The main problems were swarf and liquid penetration, plus continually having to change batteries.
I still used one on my new mill, but that is only for drilling depth, and I had a friend make me up a transformer so that it ran from the mains, and I just put a capacitor across the battery terminals. It doesn't suffer as the old ones did, it is away from the cutter and suds.
This pic shows the cheaper type of scales and the associated display head. You can get ones that have three displays in one, so with three scales, and the head you could most probably make up a cheap 3 axis system for under £200.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/QuillDRO-1.jpg)
I hope this has answered your questions.
John
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Many thanks John,
I must admit the crusader is a tad out my price range at the moment, in time i would like to CNC the lathe i purchase.....a conclusion i came to after talking to some chaps at the Harrogate show last year.
The conversions look quite simple and not too pricey, I don't suppose you have any experience of WARCO or TOOL CO lathes or possibly know someone who has? I have been Lathe browsing a fair bit tonight and the more i look at the more spec i seem to want !!!!
Your previous advise of power, bed stiffness and swing seem good basic rules to judge machines by, it would seem i have to get my oily mitts on some of these beasts to see if they are right for me.
Cheers
Ian
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Ian,
I cannot comment on CNC, as I have no need to make thousands of an item, and if only one was required I could most probably have made it before you got your software up and running. I specialise in manual machining, one offs and the like, with the occasional small batchwork.
It took me six months to make my lathe decision.
It not only had to fulfill my needs (or modified to do so) but it also had to shoehorn into a very specific space. I only had about an inch to spare in length.
I would have liked a Jet lathe, even though expensive, they are about the best far eastern lathe you can get for build quality and features. But the one I wanted just wouldn't fit.
No matter what lathe you get, it will never match your ideal specs. I would have preferred to have an imperial leadscrew, as they are much easier and more versatile to use, but they are not available here, but are in the US. Most probably due to EU regulations.
You will find the same lathe you want from almost all suppliers. But there will be slight variations between the ones offered, and you really do have to look at the small print. Chester were the only ones to offer an 18 speed head for my model, all the others only had 9 speeds. Not that I really need them, but there might be a time when the extra speeds will come in handy.
I have bought most of my machinery over the years from Chester, purely on the features they offer and after sales service. They might look more expensive, but you usually get a lot more than what the others offer. Also they are local to me, so if anything does go wrong, an hour or so round trip and I will be up and running again.
You really do have to shop around and don't go for the first one with the most bling, posh chrome handles only cost a few squid.
Get your ideal features down on paper, give yourself a maximum budget, then just troll websites until you find what you want. If you find large discrepancies between prices from suppliers, check to see what comes with the machine. One might only supply a basic chuck, where another you will get the whole range of accessories.
In these hard times, an up front cash sale can sometimes get you a very good discount. I daren't tell you how much I got off my lathe and mill, purely because I paid cash up front for both at the same time, in the case of the lathe, months before it was delivered. Not at the show, but at the showroom later.
If you don't ask, you don't get.
Best of luck on your search.
John
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I have been following this topic with some interest as I've always wanted to get into the lathe side of things despite that sort of work not really being my strong point. All I have at the moment is one of the little metal and plastic Unimat jobs. I see that on the Chester website there are a couple of small lathes priced at around the £300 mark. Are either of these suitable as a starter modeller's lathe? I only build relatively small scale models so it wouldn't be used for heavy work but the ability to turn up small brass or aluminium fittings would be very useful.
Colin
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Colin,
This is my lathe:
http://www.chesteruk.net/store/conquest_lathe.htm
which can be purchased in many colours from many different manufacturers at slightly different prices. You can buy spares from the United States here:
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/
and there are no end of web sites offering guidance and information about this machine such as this one:
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/silkstone/minilathe/minilathe01.htm
Being Chinese you do have to put a bit of thought into the set up and it's not a bad idea to take it apart and check every thing out properly but it is a great lathe for the money and a world apart from the one you have. I would highly recomend it as a first 'serious' machine that can do a lot for the modeller who has a bit of interest.
This is basically the same lathe:
http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/cgi-local/sh000001.pl?REFPAGE=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2echronos%2eltd%2euk%2fcgi%2dlocal%2fss000001%2epl%3fpage%3dsearch%26SS%3dlathe%26PR%3d%2d1%26TB%3dA&WD=lathe%20250&PN=copy_of_copy_of_Clarke_300m_Variable_Sped_Lathe___Accessories%2ehtml%23aCL300M_2e_2e#aCL300M_2e_2e
and so is this:
http://www.warco.co.uk/Mini-Lathe-354285CE76.aspx#
The cost being basically adjusted to suit the accessories you get with it.
I would go along to any one of the model engineering exhibitions where all the UK suppliers, such as those above, will have thier own version on display but they are basically the same machine. I bought one with digital readouts which stuck the price up a bit but that's personal choice.
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Thanks Bunkerbarge - some food for thought there. Maybe I need to go on a course....
I'll have a read of the Mini Lathe site first I think.
Colin
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I have a small Axminster lathe, still learning how to use it, think it depends on what you want it for, and how much you are going to use it, how much you can afford.
i have put a link for you to have a look at. Sonic.
http://www.axminster.co.uk/category-Axminster-SIEG-Micro-Lathe-Accessories-370507.htm
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Thanks Sonic. Some interesting stuff there and I have bookmarked the site. I think you have hit the nail on the head there. Will the amount of use I would get from it justify the cost, and perhaps more importantly, the time taken to learn to use it properly? Very hard to tell at the moment - I shall have to do some more reading. One problem is that I am not by nature an engineer. Artistic impressions are more in my line which is why I prefer working to smaller scales when you can get away with that approach. Still, it's always possible to learn something new.
Thanks,
Colin
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Sonic, I have the Warco version of your lathe. For the odd job with smallish stuff it's great value for money.
The 'extra' bits like the vertical slide are well priced and allow you to expand your ability.
You even get used to the 'arm twiddling' to get the saddle along the bed %) %)
A few good tipped tools and the world's your lobster (although probably with the eyes drilled in the wrong place) {-)
Danny
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Will the amount of use I would get from it justify the cost,
Colin, when I bought my lathe, at a cost of A$900, my first job was to turn up 2 drive pulleys. When I proudly showed my handiwork to my wife, her comment was "Very nice, dear, and they only cost $450 each". {-) I explained that as I made more things, then the item cost would reduce proportionately. When that didn't appear to impress her, I said, "but it's also the satisfaction of making as much as possible myself, and that is priceless". I think (?) that was accepted O0
Peter.
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You have a very perceptive wife Peter. But I think your basic argument is right. nothing ventured, nothing gained. Anyway, what else would you have spent the money on?
Colin
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what else would you have spent the money on?
Good point, Colin, I'll keep that as a reply for a future occasion. ok2
Peter.
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I am using a micro mini lathe supplied by Chester it is slightly bigger than the normal offering came with DRO much more mass in the basic design needed to go on the steroid's to lift it!
Due to miss management with a face plate I did do damage to the plastic gears in the Head stock,while in California I made a visit to Pasadena and purchased metal replacement gears, tailstock lock ,saddle lock and carrage stop great additions to the lathe.
This is my first attempt at a real project. I am rather pleased to date. By the way I am sure that what ever lathe I had purchased it would not have been big enough or had the features I was looking for but in terms of money spent on hobby Vs money spent on family its a good deal
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That's really impressive MCR. Way beyond what I had in mind which was just miscellaneous fittings etc. Obviously these lathes are pretty capable!
Colin
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I have to say that I have had lots of help from a fellow club member which has illustrated that knowledge is far more important than the gear you use.
Without such help I would have been far more frustrated, best advice seek out those in your club with the KNOWLEGE.
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Colin,
You mentioned that you already had a small lathe.
Sometimes, having a big all singing all dancing machine can get in the way of making what you really want to make.
Take a leaf out of watch and clockmakers books and go manual.
All those fancy shapes they use on clocks didn't use CNC, they were all done by hand.
Here are a couple of vids to watch
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sr6sCnE-NsE
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=q6-4oyIoku4
So maybe your little plastic lathe can do the artistic things you want to do, rather than chasing a larger lathe.
For those who don't have a lathe or can't afford one, an old electric drill clamped to the bench can do the same sort of job. Just make up a rest out of a bit of angle iron, make yourself a basic graver and away you go.
I still go back to hand graving when I want to make something 'special'.
John
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You are probably right John, I need to practise a bit more with the little one to become a bit more familiar with what it can and can't do. I've had it for years but never really got into it. Having been through the links that Bunkerbarge recommended it's clear that there is a steep learning curve to overcome and I'd need to be sure that the effort would pay off before committing myself.
Colin
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Odd that I've seen no mention of the offerings from Proxxon. Unless I missed it. I have the smaller of the 2 produced and am more than happy with it. Ideally I would have liked the larger one but as my workbench and the lathe storage cupboard are about 12' apart The lathe had to be portable. Try getting hold of the Proxxon catalogue. Lots of goodies and info. BY.
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Colin, as an alternative to some of the small lathes suggested so far I would like to draw your attention to this one:
http://www.millhillsupplies.co.uk/package_prices.htm#LATHES
It is a little bit pricey, American built and an accurate and easy to use lathe that is perfect for model-makers. I prefer it to the Unimat product.
Chris
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Thanks Chris but, as you say, it does look a bit pricey. Bryan, the cheapest Proxxon lathe I can find still costs over £700 - is that the one you have?
Colin
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Thanks Chris but, as you say, it does look a bit pricey. Bryan, the cheapest Proxxon lathe I can find still costs over £700 - is that the one you have?
Colin
Colin, (and others who may be interested) the price in my catalogue for the "little one" is around £600 ( 10% off if you are a member of TMBC!), and the bigger one is a tad over £1000. But to my little mind you are buying a quality product. Still would like the big one though! BY.
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For all Proxxon equipment try,
www.letrainmagique.com
Based in Strasbourg, speaks French; German and English. Good (very good) prices and excellent service.
Lathe PD 230/E 799€.
For me the postage is relatively cheap but I do not know what things would cost to UK.
Roger in France
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Hi chaps,
The lathe hunt continues, since sunday i have seen a Boxford AUD and a Chester comet vs lathe.
I liked the Boxford, but i think it may be to heavy for my needs, does anyone have experience of the Chester comet vs? It looks quite robust and fairly well equiped for my needs and i think it is a C4 type machine? mentioned on various mini lathe web sites. Is there anything in particular to watch out for on this manufacturers machine or are they good all rounders?
Cheers
Ian
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Ian,
As previously stated, my US friend thinks the C4 is the best thing since sliced bread, and he has had a few lathes.
With all these lathes, usually they would require a good clean down as they usually come packed in a preservative grease. While being cleaned down, you should really give it a good going over and do a bit of final tweaking of the gibs. A lot of people try to use them straight out of the box and become irate when it doesn't perform as well as it should. That couple of hours spent on correct setup pays for itself over and over.
I have checked over a few places, and found that Warco don't seem to list the C4 clone, I just couldn't find one that matched.
The Axminster one
http://www.axminster.co.uk/sessionID/QOL/product-Axminster-SIEG-Axminster-SIEG-C4-Metal-Bench-Lathe-715020.htm
Works out at around £850 incl. shipping, with a standard basic tool holder, but you do get a cheapo steam engine kit thrown in.
The Chester one
http://www.chesteruk.net/store/comet_variable_speed_lathe_450mm.htm
Comes in at £700 with free shipping and free free quick change toolholder.
The difference in price is rather astounding for basically the same machine.
Ebay also throws up a few from about £740 all in up to well over £800
The difference in price would allow you to buy a few extras such as a 4 jaw independent, faceplate, a few more toolholders or steadies.
Have a look over the Chester forum to see what others think about the machine, or ask the question on there.
http://www.atfreeforum.com/chesteruk/
John
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Thanks John,
I am leaning more towards the Chester machine i think, and your help and advice in this little debate has been most appreciated, the mini lathe site is excellent and gives a complete run down of how to prep these machines....i will follow it like the bible when i purchase one at the Harrogate show .
Once again many thanks to all who have contributed to this thread
Ian
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Any time Ian.
BTW, when attending the Harrogate Chester stand, ask for Gareth to be your salesman. He is the one you should deal with.
If the weather is nice, I will be there on the Saturday, giving them some grief.
Have a look at these links.
http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=564.0
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=3570.0
and because you are thinking of CNC, this one
http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=690.0
John
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Thanks John,
I will be there both days i think, my usual scout round on saturday and then wallet bashing on sunday!!!
As i mentioned earlier on in the thread CNC may be an option later on, but all i really want is something better than my modified peatol/taig and it has to look more like a lathe rather than mechano i hope the comet is good enough to start with so who knows where it will end?
Cheers mate
Ian
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Just seen this one. I have the Chester Model B, multi purpose machine. It is a good all round machine although the mill/drill head is a bit limited.
It's probably going to have to go as I'm moving, so I too am looking at a mini lathe to replace it.
Rockets.
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If you want a mini lathe that is beautifully built and not Chinese, try the Peatol/Taig. Best check the Carter tools website for the American Taig side of it. I've had one for years and do everything I need on it. It would certainly produce a small steam plant and very many have. It's also amazingly inexpensive. For a bigger lathe there are loads of websites of machinery dealers selling everything under the sun second hand. South Bend, Lorch, Wolfjahn, Boxford, you name it. All at reasonable prices.
What I object to is the mass acceptance of all these monkey metal chinese things. The very people who are proposing them and singing quite grudging praises at them are probably those who would regret the passing of any British industry worth a toss.
The British insistence on cheap above all has got us where we are today. Up an industrial creek without a decent British paddle, just some Chinese thing that'll bend as soon as you put any weight on it.
A nation gets what it deserves, ultimately.
Now that the mass panic buying of the cheap and nasty has developed into its current frenzy, the Chinese can afford to start getting clever and knocking out some half decent stuff until in the end there'll be no point in bringing any British industry back, just like the Japs who now make everything we aspire to yet also once made ourselves. Remember those grotty little transistor radios made for the proverbial "bowl of rice"? Not any more. The Japanese now buy from the Chinese!
Is that too political?...well, it is election season
V
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I also have a peatol, and am happy with it.
There is one for sale here:
http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=3002.0
No connection, just a forum user.
Ian
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My Chester lathe is actually a very robust machine, it has taken all that I can throw at it at any rate. I have mostly used it for doing motorcycle components on, so the peatol style lathes are a bit too basic for me. More suited I think to smaller model engineering tasks and watch making. I do wish that there was a reasonably priced British alternative but sadly there isn't. I don't think that you can blame other countries for exporting their goods here, we destroyed our own industries so lets not be quick to judge Johhny Foreigner. As for monkey metal, I say try using a Chester machine and you will be surprised.
We seem to be only too glad to sell our companies to the Chinese (Landrover for example) and then bitch when they are doing better than us. They have a space program and we can't make a can of beans. Who have we got to blame?
Just my thoughts of course!
Rockets.
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Absolutely rocket, I agree with you. All those "we's" and "our's" you mention being the people so far who have bought cheap rubbish from the outset because they are cheap minded people. They had no thought how the country would end up. My Dad who was in the radio and TV business realised it would be like this, but either followed the flow of how his hard won business was going or changed and that was not feasable at his time of life, so he moved more into council work and contracting to try not to be forced to sell cheap foreign muck AS IT WAS THEN. Now, like I said, we've all made them rich enough to start showing off a bit and sourcing and making better materials until they'll are like the Japanese who can't afford to make their own stuff and are now assembling bits made in China. Exactly the same path as us, also well within a generation.
If we can't sustain an industry which we can afford, we should at least tell the Chinese to up their game immediately or we won't buy their ghastly machines. They'd soon realise that they either did that OFFENSIVE, RACIST REMARK DELETED ( the author has been contacted directly) , Moderator but instead we've let them get away with years of useless tripe, so they could get rich enough to start cherry picking markets. Soon, their stuff WILL be good, maybe your Chester is proof of that, but I wouldn't buy one on principle.
I'd always go s/h British or American quality, maybe an early Unimat SL90.
Regards,
V
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Vanity I find your comments offensive and bordering on racist.
I have long wished to enjoy using lathe but was long unable to do so.
Now I am ab;e to buy a Chinese lathe at a very reasonable cost with a performance well within the ranges I need to work to.
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I have to say Vanity, I really have nothing against the Chinese or anyone else for that matter. I don't condone your racist remark (modified by Moderator to remove quotation by previous contributor,not a criticism of "Rockets"). Your principles are your own and you can buy whatever you like of course but its not right to slur a whole race of people because you don't like the quality of their goods.
I work on aircraft in the military and I've worked with many nationalities, Americans, Polish, Czechs, French, Germans, Italians, Russians, Romanians, Singarporeans, the list goes on.
I found out that we aren't the only ones who can build and maintain aircraft. Same goes for many other industries too I'm sure.
Rockets.
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I don't think comments about monkey metal are valid with regards to Chinese goods anymore. The Chinese have learned about metalurgy, Chinese made machinery, at the low to middle end of the market, has been the equal of western made for more than 10 years now. Maybe even 20 years.
And as has been pointed out, they are half the price in most instances.
That is why they are so popular with tradesmen.
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Japanese,Taiwanese,Chinese and Indian, all in succession are/have followed the same route in the supply of c**p and have had to up the quality to maintain sales. Unfortunatley increased quality means an increase in price , so the accountants have to outsource to ANOTHER developing country and the process repeats. Tool gloats usually fall into two brackets, in the case of second hand "Quality" old machinery, the demise of another manufacturing facility and "New" tooling from the East.
It's not many years ago that the first batch of bench grinders became "Available" to all and sundry at "Affordable" prices, so the succession of more exotica has only meant that those who had a genuine leaning to the mech. part of the hobby would ALWAYS buy quality gear. The throw away disposable income flight of fancy gang just had a new hobby to "Try".
Regards Ian.
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A few years ago my finincial $ allowed me a 4"combination belt sander with a 6"disk sander ..... :o
A check @ our local e'cheapo machinery store provided the goods......however when I turned it on >>:-( <*< {:-{ the belt would not adjust & track
Went to the next store which only sold "Brand" named product & found the same sander complete with the same casting marking number in the base for say 15% more.....but to my suprise the belt tracked perfectly....naturally I purchased the latter....both made in China O0
here is a .snap....... :-))
You will also notice another Ryobi carton below & a Makita box above.........both from China.........
What you cannot see is my PROXON FKSE table saw which the Chinese have not yet reverse engineered....it will only be a few years
Our moderators........Peter [F] in OZ & Richard [BB] in UK both attest to the quality of the PROXON machinery........... :-)) ......Derek
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As an aside.
My brother took in my dad's old B&D orbital sander for a part. It was purchased in about 1970. The engineers response was, B&D don't make 'em like they used to.
We do live in a more disposable age. But as a hobbyist I can at least afford to buy tools, even if they would not stand up to the rigours of the trade. For the way I work I do not need engineering quality tools. But my modelling is not engineering, unlike other chaps on here.
As another aside. My mate used to do kitchens. Worktops are tough, and they would destroy even a quality saw. They would buy cheapo diamond saws for £3.50 (in 1990), cut 3 worktops and throw them away. It worked out cheaper than the labour cost of setting a good saw, that would soon be knackered due to the nature of what they were cutting.
On the flip side.
If I had not had access to 'affordable' tools, I would not be attempting scratch building. For the money I would have bought a few kits instead and have more boats in my fleet. {:-{
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Circlip, I have to take issue. I have been in engineering for over 20 years and have served in the RAF as an engineer for 11 years. I have been involved in classic bike restoration as well as model making and I do like to buy quality tools. Some of my tools I inherited from my Grandfather who was an engineer on the railways after he came out of the Army. All of these tools are still going strong as they were obviously of a very high quality.
So am I someone 'just trying out the mech side of a new hobby'? No I am a professional tradesman who also likes to build models. Yet I have a Chester lathe. I am happy with the quality of the machine and I don't feel the need to join the Myford Mafia to prove that I'm British enough to be taken seriously in model engineering circles.
Let it go, not only the Brits and the Americans can make quality stuff.
Rockets.
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"Myford Mafia"- excellent and very apt phrase ! O0
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I got hold of a Emco the one with the two round rails, that did me for a long long time then I decided to go a bit bigger and bought a MD65 nice bit of kit again very cheap and second hand a bit of work and its nice to use, a couple of years ago I got a NEW mill an X1 as its all I will ever need, the machines have been cheap compared to the tooling , that is mainly from China or old eastern block without cheap tooling i would not have been able to do half of what I do, I tend to go for the better stuff as there is a lot of very cheap stuff but its like getting something from Aldi you may only use it a few times like router cutters but it,s great to find you don't have to go hunting and paying a fortune for a one of job, I to am a time served tradesman and Like good tools and have some very old tools but if I had to buy the tooling for the likes of Myford I would prob never turn a thing , so if its for modelemaking small one or two of jobs Chinese is great.
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Well said HS93. We all appreciate good quality tools, but quality doesn't always mean the highest price. A tool is of good enough quality if it is fit for the purpose it is used for.
Rockets.
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Rockets, I don't think I rote what you think you red. I was in ingineering for over forty years and ALSO make models, most of which in the main have had to work in the thinnest of the elements. My frequent excursions into Marine steam were made by being allowed to use the machinery I was taught to use as an apprentice (£2-5s-3d) toolmaker. Not untill my mid fortys did I purchase the lathe which I had used at lunch times to make Stainless bits for my Itallian classic. I purchased it cos the firm was closing down and had it not been available "Cheap", although it took most of my redundancy money, I wouldn't have been able to afford it, but AUSTRIAN quality doesn't come cheap.
I can't see where I mentioned Myford???? I'm sorry you think you should feel inferior cos you don't have one but don't knock those that think they HAVE to have one to make any sort of impression on mere mortals such as us, THEY'RE keeping a piece of quality BRITISH engineering in business. In the early days of the Taiwanese imports that started the cheap tooling trade off, I had to purchase machinery for specific jobs for the firm I worked for at the time. What can go wrong with a drill press? Well, first they can't be bothered to clean the casting sand out so it turns into grinding paste in the bearings. Second, the castings are of such a low quality of cast iron that when you tighten jobs down on the drill table the castings bend. Third, the "Singing" coming from the motor is due to the windings not being vacuum impregnated so they resonate and crack.
This probably won't mean a thing to you because the standard of quality of Taiwanese manufactured machine tools NOW is classed as high as the Japanese ones, because we had to fight for quality standards to be enforced but Taiwanese quality is now too expensive so the Chinese items are more attractive. Isn't that wot I allreddy posted?? I wonder why EXACTLY the same machine from three suppliers has three different price tags???
Silk purses and sows ears?? Or as the collonials so aptly put it "You can't polish a t**d"
Regards Ian
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Circlip,
Fair comment I think. I don't have any experience of the earlier far eastern machines so I accept your point of view over their poor quality. My point is that many people can't afford a Myford or a Colchester or whatever, but still get bloody good resuls from lesser known brands. You can have all the best brands, a lack of talent will produce a lack of results.
Unfortunatey if you pick up one of the well know model engineering magazines you will find that the Myford Mafia are alive and well.
I have clearly misjudged what you meant and for that I apologise.
Regards,
Rockets.
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PS,
I don't feel inferior, I feel it's a little sad that those who HAVE to have the name feel so superior.
Best regards,
Rockets.
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Here's my numb beast, 3/4 of a ton of cast iron :o
78" bed with a 10" swing with power feed on saddle and cross slide.
She's a Colchester Triumph built in the 1930's :o 75 years old and still going strong.
I picked it up cheap because the guy who owned it was scrapping it for a much smaller Myford?
Couldn't pass it up O0
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs176.snc1/6609_106949438292_775218292_2144186_4001431_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs176.snc1/6609_106949433292_775218292_2144185_6558302_n.jpg)
They sure don't build em like they used to, fun finding parts for it though! O0 {-)
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Every credit mate. Lovely machine.
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Nice machine Greggy - I spotted the deliberate mistake - the chuck key left in the chuck. I had it drummed into me doing that was one of the most dangerous things to do on a lathe.
Ian
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Silk purses and sows ears?? Or as the collonials so aptly put it "You can't polish a t**d"
Regards Ian
And I hought you coul do anthing Ian. change, supplier snd get some off this
Peter
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Maybe you can't polish a 'xxxxx', but you can roll it in glitter.
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And I hought you coul do anthing Ian.
No Peter, I seem to get a sinking feeling when walking out to retrieve a boat stuck in the middle of a pond, ----- but if-------
Look in the Bargain Basement ads Rockets, who keeps pointing to Lidl?? SOME of the far Eastern trash is totaly acceptable for lightweight or one off use, but some is downright dangerous and unfortunately many don't have the advantage of your background to be able to sort the corn from the chaff.
I bought a "Machine" vise years ago cos I needed an alternative for light milling and drilling rather than use my apprentice made toolmakers vise. An artical in one of the mags had shown that by truing up the basic parts with a little effort, a linen bag could be produced from a sows ear. Got the thing home and after a cursory measuring session it became obvious that the castings weren't thick enough for even the lightest skim to true up, not only that but in attempting to clamp a piece of flat in the jaws, the casting bent. A quick return visit got my money back, BUT, the same vice was part of a package of "Extras" supplied with one of their "mill/drills".
So in comes the un-initiated starry eyed first time disposable incomer and takes a "Bargain machine tool" home. Quick look in the book (Or NOT, who reads the f'in manual anyway??) "Lets do a bit of milling". Cutter in bits clamped and --------. 'Taint missile technowledgy is it?? BUT we have the claim and blame people escape route.
All that glisters might easily be one rolled in glitter.
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Tis a fair and true point that you make Circlip. We've all been caught out by tat over the years. As you say it's a bit of a battleground for the uninitiated.
Perhaps we've all done some good with our debate on here and answered some questions? Or maybe we've just raised a few more!
Hope you all have a great weekend,
Rockets.
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Circlip, I have read this thread with great interest and a growing frustration until I came to your bit about Taiwanese castings that just bend under load.
Years ago I bought various machines for my business, in Shetland, some were ex lease-lend, some British built. I treated myself to a brand new milling vice made by Record: just how 'British' can you get? Unfortunately by then I guess Record were run by accountants - the perishing vice warped under the severe thermal shock of being unwrapped so my first task was to machine its base back to acceptably flat. Over time it continued to warp as the casting stresses 'let go'.
My very first lathe was a Round-bed Drummond - built long before Drummond were taken over by Myford.
My second lathe was an ancient beast that was put up for scrap after about sixty years use. It was flat-belt driven, with back-gearing, and served to re-bore an Amanco stationary engine (4" bore -> 4 1/4 bore to suit an ex-Rolls Royce diesel piston) This lathe went on to earn me some money making things that others couldn't do economically.
My next lathe was a Russian-built 'semi-toolroom' lathe of 9" centre height by about 72" centres. Its 3-phase motor was a mere 17 horse-power. Power feeds and rapids in both axiis from a joystick control. A beautiful machine to work with but at 3 or 4 tonnes, it could not be fitted into my suitcase when I started wandering around the world.
So now I have a tiny little made-in-China-badged-in-Taiwan lathe that cost about 150 pounds when I bought it in Taiwan. At 10 Kg or so, it travelled easily when I left to come to Thailand. It is by no means perfect but it suffices for the jobs I try to do.
Being in Thailand somewhat limits ones desire to 'buy British' - the cost of 'postage' is rather prohibitive even before one reaches Customs, where import duty can be 140% (one hundred and forty percent) I would far sooner pay 140% of 150 pounds than on 1500 pounds for a British machine to do much the same job.
Besides, I am no longer supporting the British Bankers who have also been responsible for the demise of British Industry.
I would dearly love to buy British ... if only ...
Geoff
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If you go back to post #61 Geoff you can see the order of the oldest manufactured which is also the quality trail. The start and what was undoubtably the worst was in 76 when the first of the imports came from Taiwan. The same list also gives the now best value in ascending order. On the original drawings, that seem to have been passed from country to country, there must be a note that says " To give the appearance of heavier better quality castings, DON'T clean them but spray paint over the sand to bind it together". We must have imported beaches from Taiwan, China and India, Where next??? They ALL suffered/suffer from the same low grade soft C/I to start with. A mate bought a wood turning lathe and asked if I could do anything with one of the clamping screw holes which had stripped. Rather than a backwards and forwards trail, ALL the tapped holes were fitted with Heli-coils, and within days the NVR switch had to be replaced. As far as "British" machines are concerned, I think you would be surprised to see where many of the castings now come from !!
Although many say steer clear of the 3 in 1 lathe/mill/drills a mate who has just moved from Malaysia to the Phillipines had his own 3in1 AND a Chinese Mill shipped over there with him and swears by them (Not at them). Even my own Austrian iron (Which ALL the far eastern lathes are copies of to a greater or lesser extent) are now made in warmer climes. We just have to keep kicking untill the quality rises, unfortunatly So Does The Bottom Line.
Regards Ian.
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Hi .my son works for a firm ,closing down ,relocating ,and ALL the machinery is getting chuked out ,i have seen this ,some nice lathes ,grinders ,all you find in a workshop ,,however ,i need no more ,if i get a date it will be disposed of would you be interested ,dockroad south/end
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I received a parcel today, my brother sent me a shiny new Clarke CL300 mini lathe for my birthday. Now I can get rid of my model B in preparation for my relocation. I'll be very sad to see it go but I'm thinking of getting a small milling machine with the cash so that I don't lose capability.
Rockets.