Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Steam => Topic started by: Shamrock on August 10, 2009, 12:17:07 am
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Hello all,
I`m here because I`m finally going to turn my dream into a reality. I want to build a scale model (preferably steam but probly electric) of a boat my great grandfather once owned and used on Lake Windermere. Some links to show you the one I`m talking about.
(http://pic.photobucket.com/spacer.gif)
http://s629.photobucket.com/albums/uu13/NonconformistZG/?action=view¤t=shamrock2.jpg
http://www.steamboat.org.uk/register/html/sham0534.htm
http://www.heritage-now.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=50
I`m a total beginner with regard to model boats and model steam engines and currently trawling through the web in search of relevant material. I`m looking for books Cd Roms and help from forums such as this one. I have some RC knowledge with helicopters and will soon be attempting to master the art of slope soaring. I still have two RC helis and two Tx`s.
I`m keen to learn about the actual building of the craft mentioned above, so any links or relevant book titles or CD Roms. would be much appreciated. I know this project may take some months or years to complete.and a lot of research will be needed and I`m prepared for that. But I can`t do it on my own, so please help me out a bit, just to get started.
I`ve come across a few books etc, that are out there but from the brief descriptions, can`t figure out if they are the right books. I take it I have to have a copy of the original plans of the full scale, but once I have them (in progress) how do I scale down to a 6 to 8 foot long model drawing? Is there a computer program that does that?
I`ll leave it there and await a response before asking further questions.
Cheers
Luke
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Hi Shamrock
We need to talk...
My own great uncle was Colonel Ridehalgh of Fell Foot Park, Newby Bridge, at the bottom end of the lake, now a National Trust property. He commissioned two steam yachts in the 1800's, both built on the Clyde, firstly the 'Fairy Queen', and later 'Britannia'. They were both sailed down the coast to Ulverston before being railed overland to Windermere.
Colonel Ridehalgh (of the Border Regiment) was Commodore of the Royal Windermere Yacht Club around six times as they have informed me.
I too have similar aspirations to yours regarding building a model - of the Fairy Queen, and rather ambitiously want to scratch build the steam engine for her too.
Regards,
Malc
www.reademodels.com (http://www.reademodels.com)
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Welcome aboard Shamrock.
A visit to the Windermere steamboat museum would have been a good starting point, except, its undergoing refurbishmnet at the moment, http://www.steamboats.org.uk/
Have you tried the National Maritime Museum? They hold plans for thousands of boats, it may or may not have Shamrock. http://www.nmm.ac.uk/search-results/?search_word=ship+plans&x=0&y=0
As far as actually setting to and building the boat, I suggest you spend some time looking at the build threads on here, there is a wealth of experience and knowledge available. Ask any questions and you will always get an answer, the answers might even be helpful occasionally ;)
As for scaling the plans, once you have a set of plans you could take them to a printshop and ask them to scale them to the size you need. If you do this, just check that all the dimensions are scaled, not just the length!
Are you anywhere near a model boat club? Its not a bad idea to join one if you are, again members are usually keen to help.
Ian
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Hi Malcolm,
I read your reply last night and was surprised and excited that someone else with a family history of Windermere lake steamers could just pop up out of nowhere with similar aspirations. I notice you live in Cheshire? I`m in Wrexham N.Wales, so we have similar interests and in easy reach of each other. This is great. I would like to meet up sometime and see if we can work together over the coming months/years and make this thing happen.
I`ve sent an e-mail to the museum today asking about boat plans and mentioned you. It would be good if, on completion of our models, we took them up to Windermere for the maiden voyage. :} I have no doubt that the local and possibly national press would be interested in being there. I think the museum would make an ideal setting for this. I know It`s a long way off yet, but I know this project is going to be costly and I`m just trying to think of ways to help with funding. I`m not that well off and would probly have to sell my windsurfer, RC heli and equipment along with a few other things just to get started. Does anyone know if I could get a grant for this sort of thing? Wishful thinking, but worth a try.
Anyway Malc, PM me to exchange contact details and lets make it happen.
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@Martin,
Thanks for the edit, :-)) I tried all sorts to do that. How`s it done? Do I need an embed code from the Photobucket web site or do I just attach a pic from my computer? Anyway thanks for that.
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Hi Shamrock,
What a wonderful project, I know Roger Mallinson well and he loves to see models of his boat- someone has done it before- a beautiful true scale model at I think 1:12, giving it an LOA of 45inches.
I will be up on windermere at the end of the week for the annual steamboat rally so can get some pics for you if you'd like me to?
It really should be steam powered if your going to do a true model- there are many ways you can do this so keep asking for advice.
The museum would be a fantastic place to start- but shamrock isn't in there she is in a large boathouse on the lake- I can give you details but obviously I won't make them public on here.
I also have some old 'Funnel's, the SBA's quarterly journal from 30 years ago when Roger, along with his late twin brother, restored Shamrock to her former glory.
I am well placed to help should you need it- I work on SY Gondola on Coniston and regularly go up.
As for national press, I think you'd be lucky, however Roger is well known locally and a model of Shamrock would be well recieved.
Really you should post your intentions on the 'steam' section- if you PM Martin the forum owner he will move this thread for you- this will mean a lot more help and advice from the right corner will come your way- also trawling through the posts in the steam section, and others too, will give you the heads up on what is required to undertake such a project.
Greg
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Hi Malcolm,
Just to let you know, if you can get in touch with the Lakeland Arts Trust about gaining access to the museum and they say yes, Britannia's teak and stained glass rooflight is used as the rooflight to the foyer of the museum, you probably knew this but thought i'd tell you incase you didn't know.
Greg
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@ Ian,
Thanks for the welcome Ian. It feels good to be here. Compared to other RC helicopter related and other forums, there is an obvious warm and friendly atmosphere here and I`m proud to be a part of it. I`ve e-mailed the museum letting them know about my project and waiting to hear back from them regarding the Shamrock drawings. I`ve had a brief look at the NMM web site but will wait to hear back from the museum or Roger Mallinson or the SBA before making enquiries. I`ve also had a look at nearby (on line) clubs and think that the Runcorn club
http://www.runcornmodelboats.co.uk/index.html
I`ve also found a good link to Ron`s Boats.
http://www.ronsboats.co.uk/
He`s built something similar to the Shamrock and would be well worth my while talking to him. I`ve sent him an e-mail today and awaiting a reply.
As far as searching through the forum build threads, I did that before my initial post and always found it difficult searching forums for specific info. But I`ll keep at it.
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Ah, I see your going down the museum route for getting the plans- you'll be lucky- the museum shut it's shop side of the business about 4 years ago- someone somewhere may know if there are any drawings still available- however there were never any drawings in the museum of Shamrock- the nearest being the drawing of Swallow, Shamrocks siter ship, but she is 6 inches shorter so wont have the same lines.
Greg
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Hi Greg,
Nice to hear from you. Now that you mention it, I`m getting some memories returning to me of when Roger made enquiries to my dad about old photos before he started the restoration. Is it possible that the drawings are lost? Do you know who built the model you mentioned? I have also recently become aware of the annual steamboat rally and would very much like to attend. Joining Roger on the Shamrock would be the highlight of the last several years for me. But that would be too much to ask at such short notice I guess. I`ve had a look at the youtube vids of the 07 and 08 rallies and would love the opportunity to ride along. But failing that, your kind offer of taking some pictures of the Shamrock would be much appreciated. Even if I can`t ride along with anybody, I may venture up to meet some people and have a chat about my new project. I`ll PM you with my contact details and next time you see Roger, please forward them on.
The Gondola looks fantastic, Greg. You`re a very lucky man to have a job on such a fine looking yacht.
Cheers
Luke
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@Greg and @Malc
I`ve sent you both a PM but after checking my PM out box, there is nothing there. Please let me know if you received.
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@Greg and @Malc
I`ve sent you both a PM but after checking my PM out box, there is nothing there. Please let me know if you received.
Shamrock
FYI, outgoing messages only appear in the outbox if you tick the box to leave a copy.
Barrie
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Hi Malcolm,
Just to let you know, if you can get in touch with the Lakeland Arts Trust about gaining access to the museum and they say yes, Britannia's teak and stained glass rooflight is used as the rooflight to the foyer of the museum, you probably knew this but thought I'd tell you In case you didn't know.
Greg
Hi Greg
I had an inkling that there may be bits of Britannia knocking about at Windermere, but I had no specific information. Many thanks for your post.
I do talk to the National Trust at Fell Foot Park occasionally. Sometimes they can be more forthcoming than others...I have offered to lend them some of Colonel Ridehalgh's family silver to put on display, but their staff seem to move about a lot, and it's difficult to establish a rapore with anybody?
I also have a standing invitation to The Royal Windermere Yacht Club, but my blue blazer and captain's hat with scrambled egg on always seem to be at the dry cleaners...
Regards,
Malc
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Hi Malcolm,
I read your reply last night and was surprised and excited that someone else with a family history of Windermere lake steamers could just pop up out of nowhere with similar aspirations. I notice you live in Cheshire? I`m in Wrexham N.Wales, so we have similar interests and in easy reach of each other. This is great. I would like to meet up sometime and see if we can work together over the coming months/years and make this thing happen.
I`ve sent an e-mail to the museum today asking about boat plans and mentioned you. It would be good if, on completion of our models, we took them up to Windermere for the maiden voyage. :} I have no doubt that the local and possibly national press would be interested in being there. I think the museum would make an ideal setting for this. I know It`s a long way off yet, but I know this project is going to be costly and I`m just trying to think of ways to help with funding. I`m not that well off and would probly have to sell my windsurfer, RC heli and equipment along with a few other things just to get started. Does anyone know if I could get a grant for this sort of thing? Wishful thinking, but worth a try.
Anyway Malc, PM me to exchange contact details and lets make it happen.
Hi Shamrock
PM sent...
Regards,
Malc
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Hi Luke,
I've PM'd you.
I don't think the drawings will be lost- they were prints after all so they should be on CD-ROM or a hard-drive somewhere- you'll just have to find them- i'll see what I can do.
Thanks for the compliment- we work hard to keep her looking that fine- very lucky to work on her.
Malc,
We don't really have much to do with Fell Foot on Gondola so I can't help really, however as I will be up at the end of the week the guy i'm staying with, that i'm building a model steam launch for, is well up on local history- i'll ask him if he knows any details about Britannia- his grandad owned a huge swathe of lakeshore with a victorian house - selling parcels of it off during the supertax years until he was left with nothing, quite sad really.
Greg
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Hi Greg
Thanks for the information. I have a feeling that we're in danger of hijacking Luke's thread here?
I will start another at some point and upload pictures of Britannia, Fairy Queen, and of the Colonel himself.
The photographs have a lot of interest for those keen on Windermere steamers...
Malc
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Shamrock
FYI, outgoing messages only appear in the outbox if you tick the box to leave a copy.
Barrie
Box ticked. Thanks for that Barrie. :-))
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PM`s received thanks.
I don`t watch TV much these days and missed the start of the Fred Dibnah series on BBC2. I wasn`t even aware, until I recently read Roger Mallinson`s blog, that during Fred`s last trip to the lakes before he died, he spent a day on the Shamrock.
I`m now waiting for Fred Dibnah`s last series DVD to arrive. I believe It`s episode 3 where Roger appears alongside Fred.
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Right, getting a bit carried away there, hijacking my own thread, so back on topic.
I`ve decided to build as close to the real thing as possible. That means plank on frame and a steam engine.
Questions.
#1. What tools am I likely to be needing? I have a small garage where I plan to do the build, but not much room for bench saws and the like, but having spent the last several months (recently laid off) working for a supplier of quality oak doors/floors/skirting etc , I got to know some guys who have a wood machining work shop and could ask them to do the stuff I can`t do by hand. But if I can do everything by my own hand, what tools would be needed??
#2. What wood should I use? I could probly get some oak offcuts from my previous employer for next to nothing. But should different woods be used for different parts of the build??
#3. Would I have to build some kind of jig or several jigs to hold the frame etc.???
#4 Assuming I can get the wood for nothing and the fact that I want a working steam model of about 6 to 8 feet in length, can anyone give me a ball park figure of how much this project is likely to cost? I`ll probly end up buying the fittings etc. rather than trying to make them myself.
I may be able to find this info somewhere on this forum but if someone here has built something similar, I just want a rough idea. Plus I plan to add to this thread over the coming months/years , with pictures and updates of my project and on completion, hopefully others will be able to refer to this thread for help with their own build.
So please keep the hints and tips and advice coming. :-))
Cheers
Luke
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Luke,
Some project you are taking on! Are you intending to buy or build your own steam plant?
Tools: jigsaw, razor plane, razor saws, screwdrivers, stanley knife, modelling knife and blades, tape rule, a good steel rule, dividers, clamps, clamps and more clamps, masking tape (the best universal clamp you can get!), glue, various grades of sandpaper, sanding block, patience, determination, beer, a bin for the bits you will break along the way, a brush and shovel for cleaning up the mess you will make, a VERY deep pocket.----enough for starters?
Wood: Personally, I would stay away from oak, its extremely hard and difficult to work well without really sharp, and I mean scary sharp tools. I have used cedar for several buils, it works well, bends nicely, finishes well, and you can sometimes pick it up quite cheap, especially as you have contacts in a wood shop. Another alternative is lime, but that is very light in colour, but again works well.
You will need a building board, something good and rigid. I use 1/2" board with 4x2 timbers screwed to it to make it rigid. this is essential as it will hold the model stable as you build.
Cost? Thats a tough one, best not to keep a track of costs, cos if swmbo finds out you are sunk! The steam plant could be getting on towards £1000 or more, depending on what you want:
http://www.mainsteam.co.uk/aboutus.htm
and another
http://www.westbourne-models.com/westbourne-models-com-the-home-of-model-boats-1-0.html
there are more, but these give an indication of what there is. One thing, go for a copper boiler, they will last longer than a brass boiler. There are also test regulations you will need to know about at a later stage.
Hope this helps.
Ian
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Ian,
Yes, a heck of a project. The more I look into it, the more daunting the task appears to be. But I`m determined to see it through and glad I`ve found the ideal place for advice. The willingness and offers of help from Mayhem users is quite something. I feel as though I`ve already made some new friends in such a short space of time. Thanks to all who have shown their interest in this project so far and I look forward to meeting some of you in the not too distant future.
Steam plant. Well everything about this build is totally new to me and the workings of a steam engine is no exception. My main aim is to build a model of the Shamrock and initially, what is under the hood , so to speak , does not really matter. The easier the build the better. That said though, after reading some of the responses and PM`s and looking at some pictures of other models, I WOULD like to try and keep the model as close to the real thing as possible. If I had the money, I would pay a skilled model steam engine builder to make a copy of the one Roger has made for the Shamrock. But I don`t have that kind of money. In fact I will be struggling to scrape up the dosh to pay for a new pre built engine that`s close to Rogers design. (even if one exists) If I can find a second hand one that fits the model, looks pretty close and at a price I can afford, then that will do. This has got me asking another question. I`ve stated that I want my model to be around 6 to 8 feet long. So what size engine should I be considering? Do the engine sizes go by the power needed to push the model through the water and speed required? or do I just get the size and type that`s closest to the real thing? Or do I find an engine and boiler before starting and build around them ?I know this probly sounds a daft question to some of you and sorry in advance for that. :embarrassed:
When you say a copper boiler last longer, how much longer? And what is it in a boiler that deteriorates?
Thanks for the links and other tips. A VERY deep pocket could be a problem. Anyone have a deep pocket they don`t want any more? %%
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Hi Shamrock,
Regarding steamplant-
Shamrock has a locomotive style boiler- these are not made for marine modelling so you would have to get it made specially- this alone could be round £1500-£2000.
The Engine- Shamrock's engine was a design that Roger adapted while in the navy, he used the cylinder block off a Duplex steam pump- and your right no-one does make an engine like it in model circles.
I have designed a launch myself that is 8ft in length based on shamrock's lines- I built the bow section and the cabin so far, I don't know if it'll get finished though, a bit impractical and i've learned a hell of a lot about steam since then- I was 16 when I drew the plans having spent an evening on Shamrock with my first training engineer on Gondola.
The woods I used were;
Hull- Oak keel, steam-bent oak ribs, oak knees and seat frames. Cedar strip planking brass nailed to the ribs. Teak/mahogany decks.
Cabin- Teak window frames, mahogany roof timbers (used the back of a guitar soundbox to make a really interesting curved roof) and pine panelling inside.
Regarding the steam plant I was going to use a 2 1/2" Gauge locomotive boiler design and shorten the barrel and make it side firing (this is how Roger made his boiler for Shamrock, it is the original boiler from River Irt, one of the loco's on the Ravenglass And Eskdale railway)- at this size you could gas fire for ease of use- or if you were clever enough you could even coal fire- no different to a model steam loco's grate size- just put a pressure controlled bypass valve on a permanent water feed pump and away you go!
Regarding the engine for the boiler- I would PM Bogstandard- his engineering is first class and has much experience with model steam- he is always busy but you may be able to come to some arrangement, failing that a Stuart Turner twin launch would be your first choice of engine- right size, right power, contemporary looks. You do know that originally Shamrock was fitted with a Sissons triple expansion steam engine- the rolls royce of small steam plants- i'm sure i've seen a 1:12 model of one of these, it wouldn't be cheap but imagine one of those in your launch!! O0 O0 O0 O0
Regarding the engine size- see the thread in tugs and towing section on 'Evanos/Mont Caume'- I explained to this gentleman how to calculate power from any given model steam engine.
The power is slightly irrelevant though as Shamrock's lines are just so efficient- anything with a cylinder size of 14-18mm Sq. would be adequate.
Greg
Ps- about Fred Dibnah's series- he had engine problems with his tractor so Roger sorted them for him and then Fred went down to the boathouse the next day to have trip on Shamrock,
unfortunately fate being what it is, if he hadn't had engine trouble he would have had a trip on SY Gondola on the day Roger fettled the cylinders on the tractor- we were gutted as this would have been the best publicity for the boat it's had in years, hey ho! {:-{
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Luke,
So, Shamrock had a triple expansion, well, Stuart Turner do a triple expansion engine as a set of castings to be machined. This would be the proper job :-))
Ian
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Luke,
Your q about the boiler, some manufacturers are offering brass boilers with their steam plant, now, I am given to understand that in time the brass can become brittle (someone will correct me if I am wrong), whereas copper isnt affected like this,.
Time scales? Well, either would probably see your lifetime out with correct use and maintenance, but I can see this project of yours becoming a family heirloom and as such i feel that you would be well advised to go the copper route.
Greg mentioned Bogstandard for machine work, I would go along with that, he is a master at metal murdering, see this: http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=18830.0
Ian
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Ian,
That link to Bogstandard`s thread is one of the most, if not THE most interesting and best threads I`ve come across on internet forums. The pics are crystal clear as are the descriptions he gives. Short and to the point. He`s obviously highly skilled and to take the time to share his skills and techniques with forum members is just... well , what a guy.
I would`nt know where to start with regards to dropping him a PM. So far, the vibes I`m getting are to go for copper boiler. If it will last longer but do the same job, then , fine. Copper it is. And yes, I will want to keep this model in my family as long as I can. I may even consider approaching the museum to see if I can put it on display there when I`m not using it or become too old to use it.
Excuse my numptyness but is a boiler the same thing as a steam plant? I don`t suppose it really matters what the boiler looks like because it`ll be covered won`t it?
Engine. After reading bogsy`s thread, I`m not sure about an ST. But if bogsy is the man to fix any problems, I`m happy to go with the ST xxx if it`s a close match to the original Sissons.
Oh man. I don`t have a clue what I`m talking about even though I`ve been on this forum most of the day. My head is starting to fry a bit.
I`m going to go down the steam route as opposed to electric. That much is decided. Now the way I see it, I have a choice of getting someone to copy and build Rogers design or copy the original Sissons design, or, get something like the ST xxx which closely resembles the Sissons, or, slap in any old thing as long as it works and fits. As I`ve said somewhere before, I`m not very well off and price is a big issue. So if I can get prices for all these options I can then work out how long it will take to get the cash sorted out. If It`s going to cost £2000 just for the engine then so be it. But I want to look at the cheaper options first. I would never consider spending this sort of money on a model, but as It`s the Shamrock and I`m an Ashley, It`s just something I have to do.
Right, I need a rest for a bit. My eyes are starting to go now as well.
Greg,Ian, thanks again for your input. I`ve learnt so much today.
Cheers
Luke
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Is this book any good? Anybody?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Planking-Techniques-Model-Ship-Builders/dp/0830628681/ref=pd_rhf_shvl_4
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Luke,
Bogs is a very approachable guy, just pm him and tell him what you are wanting to do, open up a dialogue with him. I know he has a bit of work on at the moment, and in any case, you are still a way off needing the engine.
Right, terminology: steam plant refers to all the individual items thet are needed to make a steam engine run.
Boiler, this is the item that holds water, heat is applied to the boiler (by gas burner in most models), boils the water and produces the steam, steam goes to the engine via a lubricator, steam turns engine and exhausts to an oil trap (in most models, to a condenser in real life), and exhaust steam goes to atmosphere.
You really do need to understand the operating principals of steam plant in order to run one safely. In the wrong or incompetent hands, a steam plant can be lethal. There is a lot of stored energy and high temperatures in these things. I say this not to scare you off, but just to make you aware. You would do well by joining your local club and talking to any steam boat owners.
Or, go to Llanberis this weekend, someone there will be able to advise you.
I would have gone, but swmbo booked a week in Spain >>:-(
Ian
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Being a newbie and a numpty, the fact that I have the Wrexham & District Society of Model Engineers more or less right next door to me totally passed me by.
I went to Windermere last Saturday to visit my dad who was over on holiday from Cyprus. We took a self drive (free of charge, my dad still has shares in the company.) and went for a pootle around the lake. On my return to Wrexham, I spent Sunday and Monday searching the web for any vintage pictures of the Shamrock. Google was bringing up all sorts apart from the pics I was after. By Monday night, I had joined this forum and another, dropped the photo hunt and decided I was going to attempt to build the Shamrock. So I`ve not had much time to suss out nearest clubs and to be honest, I`ve been too engrossed in this forum.
Thanks to Brian for pointing out the club and I`ll be along tomorrow to meet some of you and look forward to learning the in`s and out`s of a steam engine.
Cheers
Luke
PS. Not sure why your post was removed Brian. I must have another read through the rules again. I learnt today that this site has some kind of automatic system that picks up certain words which can unwittingly be posted. I hope I don`t c-o-c-k up like that. My typing is sooo slow and would hate to have to re type because the computer says Noooo.
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Hi Luke,
Ian has a great idea but to put a triple into a model is a very hard job indeed, three main reasons really;
1- Triples expand the steam 3 times (yes I know you probably gather that, bear with me) therefore high pressure (HP) steam is only admitted to the first cylinder- so if the piston in that cylinder happened to be at top dead center (TDC) or bottom dead center (BDC) then the engine wouldn't self start- this afflicts any triple expansion engine no matter what size- however in a model you aren't inside to move the shaft around to get it going again- so a 'simpling' valve would be needed- this swaps the first two cylinders from being a compound to being a twin HP engine with a LP cylinder- it does this by admitting HP steam into the intermediate pressure (IP) cylinder or the IP valve chest- this is only to get the engine turning on start-up though and would have to automatically shut off after a couple of rev's. Difficult to exercise in a model and even harder to disguise and make a good job of it as it would need it's own dedicated servo- in a tug or cargo ship you have the room to play with, but in a windermere launch there is just no room left in the engine casing- believe me it's difficult to fit any controls under it and hide them!!! :o O0
2- The ST triple doesn't represent the sissons in any way other than it being a triple- the sissons are beautiful engine, powerful for their size and literally run like a sewing machine- using Bremme(?) valve gear they had no noisy eccentrics and it did away with the crude stephensons link and replaced it with precise rocking arms on a layshaft.
3- Roger has fitted a twin HP engine in Shamrock because she doesn't need the economy of a seagoing ship- she sails on her water tank- and he doesn't do enough mileage to warrant the difference in coal- if you could model Roger's engine then it would be unique, reliable, powerful and contemporary to the boat now- if not to how your great grandad would have known her.
As Ian says, steamplants are not toys, even a Mamod can mame you- but only if you don't treat them with the common sense and respect they deserve- if you do they are a challenging, rewarding and elegant side of model engineering that anyone can enjoy.
Looking forward to meeting you on thursday mate.
Greg
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If you want a good book on strip planking go here;
http://www.selway-fisher.com/SFD%20Catalogues%20&%20Manuals.htm (http://www.selway-fisher.com/SFD%20Catalogues%20&%20Manuals.htm)
Also some lovely designs of launches on here.
Greg
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Rather than rushing in to a large model how about starting with a stand off scale one about 2ft6in. It will be easier to get the wood, be easier to transport (especially when you are older), be more child friendly, the engine can be a simple cheap oscillator. It is the superstructure that defines the model more than the hull lines so you can use an existing plan until you get the original drawings.
For the larger model make the boiler and engine as independent units on baseplates. Then you can remove and upgrade them as funds or experience dictates. There is certainly no need to start with a £2000 steam plant. Look for something like this http://www.myhobbystore.com/1934/Colyer-Miranda-Steam-Engine.html
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Shamrock........I must agree with Bee here in the philosophy ...build a smaller version first........we are taught that Moses did not posess any formal marine building skills......but he may have also had a devine helping hand O0 .......Derek %%
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I have to agree in principle, however if Luke is adamant about what he wants and is as determined as he sounds then there is no reason he wouldn't be able to do it- I can see this project being completed in 10+ years, not a few months-plenty of time for luke to practice his skills and to save up for the right plant.
Greg
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Actually, there is a lot of merit in Bee's suggestion, I would suggest building a pracise hull with similar lines - doesnt matter what, using the techniques and materials Luke intends to use on Shamrock. This way, most mistakes, and there will be some, will be made on the practise hull.
This could be started first, and as skills develop, work on Shamrock could begin and run in paralell but a few stages behind. Its time consuming, but for someone new to this its worth thinking about.
Ian
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Shamrock.....could be some very interesting viewing here irrespective of your decisions.......Derek :-)) O0
http://www.edinburghmodelboatclub.org/gallerys/gallery13/index.htm
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Ian,
Thanks for the advice on safety. Having worked in the offshore drilling industry for around 6 years (some of that time as a safety rep)and more recently got into building and flying RC helicopters,(club committee safety member) the importance of safety is something that seems to come naturally to me these days. Work or pleasure and even while driving, the safety of myself and others around me is second nature.
But that said, you are absolutely right, I could be the most safety concious bloke in the world, but that in itself is not enough. There is much for me to learn regarding steam engines no matter how small the engine. Only then will I attempt to run a steam engine on my own.
As you now know from a previous post, I now have the opportunity to go along and learn a thing or two about steam engines from some highly skilled enthusiasts at a club nearby.
Luke
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Greg,
Once again, some really good advice there. Yes it would be really nice to model Roger`s design. I`m leaning towards that idea now. It`s going to be a while before I make a final decision and as stated before, It`s going to be a while before the engine is needed anyway. I`ll be talking with Roger tomorrow with note book and camera in hand, and hopefully learn a few things about the engine and It`s design.
Thanks also for the link. Looks very interesting. I`m going to order the strip planking and steam launch design manuals.
Fred Dibnah`s DVD arrived today and just finished watching episode 3. I`m getting really excited about tomorrow. %%
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Bee,
Thanks for throwing a spanner in the works. >>:-(
No , just kidding. Very good idea actually. Great link, thanks for that. If I was still in employment, I would start on this model now.
http://www.myhobbystore.com/1927/Colyer-Sl-Swift-MM1421.html
But until I find more work, I won`t be committing to anything. That link is now top of the list , below Mayhem, in my new RC boat bookmark folder. When finance permits, I`ll take your advice. Thanks for that.
Luke
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I have to agree in principle, however if Luke is adamant about what he wants and is as determined as he sounds then there is no reason he wouldn't be able to do it- I can see this project being completed in 10+ years, not a few months-plenty of time for luke to practice his skills and to save up for the right plant.
Greg
10+years??????? I`m going to need something to learn with and play with in the meantime, me thinks Greg. O0 The Swift would be my first choice at this stage if I go down that route.
But once I`ve gathered all the info I need and weighed up all the costs, I may just decide to crack on with the big one. I`ll have to wait and see.
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Shamrock.....could be some very interesting viewing here irrespective of your decisions.......Derek :-)) O0
http://www.edinburghmodelboatclub.org/gallerys/gallery13/index.htm
Thanks for that Derek, yes, very interesting viewing. Although the pictures don`t seem to be in order of build. Looking at the workshop in the background, the builder must have spent quite a few hours of the build just looking for tools and stuff. I personally could`nt work in an area that untidy. I like a tidy shop floor where everything has It`s place and easy to find. Unfortunately my wife does`nt see it that way.. >>:-(
There`s a handy little scale calculator that I`ve downloaded from that site`s help page.
http://www.edinburghmodelboatclub.org/
Does anyone know of any other free downloads like that , which would be handy for my project???
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Is that plan you linked the one on the Edinburgh site? And on that site anyone understand what is going on in photo 12?
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Photo 12, if you turn it upside down, the bigger white thing looks like a moulded corner sink and plug. The other object looks like a beer pump :-))
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Is that plan you linked the one on the Edinburgh site? And on that site anyone understand what is going on in photo 12?
Not sure about that Bee. This is something else I`m going to have to get clued up on. Someone here will no doubt correct me if I`m wrong, but I THINK the Swallow, Swift and Shamrock were all pretty much the same. In fact the Swallow is the Shamrock`s sister. If you look at the front end of the three, you`ll see It`s almost at right angle to the water. But the likes of the Branksome have a sloping bow with a slight curve in it. The one on the Edinburgh site looks more like the Branksome.
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.visitcumbria.com/julian/winsteam-n5100.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.visitcumbria.com/amb/winsteam.htm&usg=__JdWjIlGqG7x6h_TlNS-sRb5xOBA=&h=480&w=640&sz=101&hl=en&start=33&um=1&tbnid=VshQ0uYy3Lk9kM:&tbnh=103&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwindermere%2Bsteam%2Bboats%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1C1GGLS_en-GBGB292GB304%26sa%3DN%26start%3D21%26um%3D1
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Would it be worth me getting this CD Rom? Or does anyone have one they don`t need any more???
http://www.mainsteam.co.uk/steamguide.htm
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If I can get the Shamrock looking half as good as this, I would be a very happy man.
http://www.westbourne-models.com/topaz-steam-launch-4404-0.html
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Thanks Boatmadman I see that now.
Shamrock - I hadn't noticed the difference in bows, got waylaid by the rear canopy.
In view of your current finances I wouldn't bother with books or CDs for a while. Read the build masterclasses and other threads, even ones about tugs and warships and you will learn so much.
Use your funds to buy a a coping saw and fretsaw and try cutting a few experimental frames. That will start to show you what kind of aptitude you have for the job and how much practice you are going to need.
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Gents.......here is the explanation of EMBC - Gallery 13 - photograph 12........additional photograph of the combination navigation lights
This Gallery 13 has been ''tidied'' up somewhat....I preferred the older gallery detail of 4 years ago where a greater number of snaps of the finished vessel were evident
From memory, the builder is a retired aircraft engineer & was then involved in the restoration of a Concord jet........I think he is a superb model builder :-)) .
I always wanted to understand what type of glue he used for the hull construction.....,.seemed to emulate tar...wonder if it could have been black Bostik? ...Derek
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(http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/7641/72058833.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/)
"Shamrock" warming up for the Windermere Steamboat Rally 09
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That's a nice photo which shows a number of key styling features. The Swift plan looks ot be a reasonable representation having straight bow (easy build), cruiser stern (build problem there), raked cabin windows (just to be awkward), rear canopy, just missing the clorestory roof. Another useful feature is the enclosed engine. that means you can start off with an electric motor ( :o) and nobody will see.
BTW are the windows always like that. Such a large center window woulod have been difficult 100 years ago wouldn't it?
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Bee,
I took as many pics as I could, in-between chatting with Roger and his guests. My main camera`s battery died and I had to resort to my mobile phone camera when the other launches arrived.
http://s629.photobucket.com/albums/uu13/NonconformistZG/Windermere%20steam%20boat%20rally%2009/
Yes the Swift is VERY close likeness and I`m tempted to have a go at that first. Not sure if or how much profit one makes on these models, but if I knew I could build the Swift and sell her on with a decent profit, that would help with funding the engine build for the `Big one`.
I think the windows were always like that. Looking at the picture in the OP, they are the same.
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Oh dear :embarrassed:....it wasn't Moses that built the Arc....... but Noah.....sorry {:-{ .....but anyway.....one point omitted from any of the detail on the build of these vessels is :-X ....did they have toilet facilities on board?........ ;D ;D ....Derek
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As Shamrock says......"Not sure if or how much profit one makes on these models, but if I knew I could build the Swift and sell her on with a decent profit",
Oh dear..... >:-o...
1) professional engineers or accountants or the like may quantify or view their time as an hourly $ rate requirement
2) qualified model builders who also may be professional engineers or accountants or the like & may accept 1/100 of their professional rate when building a model {:-{
Best do you sums & clarify your assumptions prior to purchase of the first sticks of wood if profit is the goal......... O0 .....Derek
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Hi Derek,
I`m under the impression that It`s cheaper to build your own as opposed to having a model built for you. So someone, somewhere makes a profit. O0
That said though, my reason for the `Profit` word in my last post was pure desperation mixed with motivation, excitement, willingness, determination and an ambition to have the `Shamrock` back in the Ashley family. (Even if it IS in model form) I would never sell the Shamrock after completion , so let`s just clear that up. I look forward (in my old age) to taking her along to shows, Steamboat rallies etc. and showing her off to the envy of onlookers. As I said before, it would be nice to put her on display in THE museum. But one thing is for sure, it will NEVER leave the Ashley family for generations to come. (I would like to think)
On reflection, I don`t think I would sell the Swift upon completion either. I`m a perfectionist and NO buyer would be worthy of purchase of such a fine model. :police:
I DO hope this attitude is more to your liking Derek. When you start your responses with `Oh dear` It`s like riding a roller coaster whilst reading back through the thread. :embarrassed:
But I do appreciate your input. O0
Cheers
Luke
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Thanks for posting those images of the Rally, I was really pleased to see a good selection.
Good quality stands out and these steamers certainly have a lot of love and care taken on them for sure.
As they say, whether it be a model or full size we are just custodians of these craft for now then they become someone else's to enjoy
but what a way to enjoy steam eh!! {-)
Again thanks it was a pleasure..............
Regards
Cliff
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Cliff,
I`m glad you appreciate the images. I wish the good quality camera battery had lasted a bit longer to capture (even closer ) , the love, care and attention of the owners of these fine examples of lake steamers, but , hey, there`s always next time.
I thought it would be a good idea to try and catch them all moored up together as opposed to trying to catch up with them on a self drive hire. I hope I managed to capture the atmosphere within the owners, their families and guests. It was a beautiful sunny morning and a couple of BBQ`s on the lake shore. But standing downwind of a BBQ was nothing compared to standing downwind of a funnel or two. It was a day to remember for me and I`ll be back next year for sure. My dad is in the process of moving back to the Lakes (his place of birth) this year, so hopefully we can both ride along on the Shamrock at next years rally. ( ??????? Roger ???? ) O0
Cheers
Luke
PS Thanks Greg. :-))
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Hi Luke,
Just got home from the lakes!
I'm glad you had a good time and managed to speak with Roger.
Check my thread on Windermere rally for my pics- including new build windermere launch.
Bee,
Window is original- families who could afford these launches could afford the glass for the windows mate!!
Greg
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Luke,
Just found this link to a pic of Shamrock, dunno if you have seen it before.
Ian
http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/photos/blog/4433598.Glowing_For_Gold/
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I would strongly recommend getting a few good books on the subject of steam and of wooden boat building. This is a good way to start as it puts you in touch with most of the problems that you will encounter as well as the solutions to those problems. Also with steam books, it shows what types of Marine Engines are normally used in models, and also the building of them. I most certainly recommend the following without a shadow of a doubt, as I have read them, and reread them. Knowledge before the event is always a good thing, as no one can know everything that is required to be know, and there are also so many different approaches to the same solution. Here are the books in no particular order:
Building Classic Samall Craft Complete Plans and Instructions for 47 Boats. by John Gardner.
This is a first class book and is regarded as the definitive work on the subject.
Model Maritime Steam by Stan Bray.
This is a good informative book and one I have found very interesting as it covers many different type of steam marine engines and their construction. This includes triple expansion engines. Boiler construction is dealt with as are fittings and firing methods along with many other interesting and relevant bits and pieces.
Model Stationary and Marine Steam Engines by K.N. Harris
This is a first class work on the subject and is as relative today as the day it was written.
Planking Techniques for Model Ship Builders By Donald Dressel.
This deals with the subject in a very informative way and makes for interesting reading, or at least I have found it so.
You local Public Library ought to have some books on the different subjects that you will encounter in the planning, construction and running of your model of Shamrock. Also bear in mind that most books can be acquired on your behalf by the local library via the Inter Library Loan System.
Please note that they are many other books on the subject, that no doubt are equally as informative, its just that I have these in my library, and can only comment on the ones I have read and studied.
If you join a local engineering society, then they may well have a large selection of books and magazines on the subjects of wooden boat construction and steam engines and their boilers etc. This should be right up your street as most, not all build steam locomotives, and as Shamrock has a locomotive boiler, then it may be only a matter of time before you lay your hands on a drawing of the locomotive. Also try the National Railway Museum at York, they might be able to help. A letter requesting to see if they have drawing of the loco in question, accompanied with an SSAE, should bring some results, if only as an elimination process. Also a similar request to the editor of the Model Engineer should bring a response from some of the readers. One thing that modeller are very good at, that is reaching out and helping their fellow modeller when help is sought.
Also visits to preserved railways can bring good results as some still sell second hand books and magazines.
Often a book or two of relevance can be found in the corner of Charity Shops, of which most high streets seem to have an abundance of these day. The seeking out of information is all part of the project,and it is very important tool of the educational variety.
Happy Modelling
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oh dear
Looks as though someone is trying to get round the Forum's Rules on Sales by digging up old threads and advertising tut tut naughty one :police: >>:-( >>:-( :((
aye
john
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Bluebird,
???? erm, last post I can see is 2009!
I wonder what happened to Luke and his project...?
Greg
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There was a posting from Main Steam on here before bluebirds that Martin deleted as he was ignoring the sales rules
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I thought that must have been the case, however usually a '******** POST DELETED *********' notification lets us know.
Greg
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Was good to see the Shamrock today and a most enjoyable afternoon on the lake. Good to see you again Greg, too.
Was so impressed with the Shamrock, I went and created a facebook page in conjunction with The Shamrock Trust.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Saloon-Launch-Shamrock/134624086631434?sk=wall
Just a pity I`m so sore now having cracked or broke a rib pulling in that mooring buoy. Oh well, no work tomorrow me thinks, then off camping at Bala Lake in North Wales for a week, but I don`t think I`ll be doing my usual blasting across the lake and back on my windsurfer in this condition. Lots of gentle walks with the boys and the dog should suffice. :-))
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Hi Shamrock
I've just found this thread but if it's any help I too did not know how to plank a boat.
have a look at 'Resurrecting Miranda' (in this steam section) I have put pictures of my efforts
it may give you encouragement to see that we are not all experts and how a novice can learn with the
superb help from the men on this forum, particularly Patternmaker and gondolier88.
I will soon be posting the hull fully planked but should show you in very basic terms how to taper the bow and aft.
(Hark at me, I used to say front and back )
Best wishes
Alan
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Hi all, I`m back and getting interested again. Finished building the stairs to the attic where I plan to do the build. Missed the opportunity to get the lines when Shamrock was last out of the water so need to wait until next time and need to be quick off the mark.
If I had the money, I would be tempted at this is rather nice Marten Howes and Baylis 42"cabin launch, TOPAZ,
[/size]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Live-Steam-Radio-Controlled-Boat-Cabin-Launch-/221154386725?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item337dd42325
[/size]But I don`t have the money and thought I would post here just in case you guys have not come across it.
[/size]BTW, i have a new facebook page for the Shamrock. Please `like` if you`re a facebook user.
[/size]https://www.facebook.com/pages/Saloon-Launch-Shamrock/134624086631434
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Welcome back.
Liked it on Facebook and added it to an interest called Steam.
Regards,
Gerald.
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Liked it to Shamrock, and I'm just posting here so I see your build pop up ..... soon?
Dave
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Luke,
I'm sure the Steamboat Museum would be more than happy for you to take the lines off either Swallow or Osprey. Look forward to seeing the build start at last.
Greg