Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Steam => Topic started by: BlueWotsit on October 22, 2009, 03:40:03 pm
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A launch recently purchased has the following steam plant installed:
3/8" Stroke Twin Caton Plant
Included with the boat was paperwork from Maxwell Hemmens Precision Steam Models back in the early 1990's.
The plant looks almost mint, but I am trying to find out a little more about it.
Has anyone come across this item who can give more information
thanks
Andrew
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Bunkerbarge is the man!
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A- Hoy there bunkerbarge where are you {:-{
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Hi Andrew,
I know John Hemmens very well and I'm going to see him on Saturday, just let me know what you need to know about it and i will ask the man himself.
This caton engine was the predecessor to the stronger max 2 engine and both types were available in, in-line twin and V 4 configurations, supplied with and optional oil and water feed pumps. Both engine types were Produced from the mid 80's up to the mid 90's and if well looked after will give you a life times worth of running.
I have seen his latest prototype engine parts and they are looking superb and will hopefully be available next year.
Regards
Ian
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A- Hoy there bunkerbarge where are you {:-{
I'm in Germany drooling over shipyard ship models!
I have the 'V' four version of the Caton and it is simply a stunning engine. I cannot get any other engine to turn over as slowly as this one and I can enjoy simply watching the running gear in operation as it works.
What do you actually want to know about it? Unfortunately my manual is at home and I won't be there for a few weeks but it sounds like you are going to get some unformation soon anyway.
The only points I can pass on from my own are the fact that the reversing valve needs to be set up very accurately otherwise you may restrict steam flow and the speed control valve is on the boiler and not the engine which should help reduce vibration effects on the linkages.
The Caton is a piston valve engine and there are those who do not rate such an arrangement but it all boils down to how much you are going to use it and how well you look after it when in service. For the vast majority of us we won't be getting huge numbers of hours on them and wear of the valve should be negligible if you lubricate properly. If you do use it a lot you may want to consider changing the piston valve 'O' rings but, once again, good lubrication and you shouldn't have anything to worry about.
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Hi Guys thanks for your offers of help.
Basically any information at all, Ive not used steam myself in a boat before, and I know nothing about starting them up, maintaining adding bits to etc etc
So anything would be super
cheers
Andrew
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Andrew,
Bunkerbarge recently had a series of articles published in Model Boats magazine which cover exactly the ground you are interested in - how to care for and correctly use a bought in model steam engine plus lots of practical advice and info on installation of steam plants. If you are a subscriber you can browse the back issues on the Model Boats website http://www.modelboats.co.uk/. If not you can order the issues by phone or email. It will cost you a few quid but probably an investment if you want to make the most of this engine.
If you want more info on which issues the articles were in, send me a PM.
Colin
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Andrew, if you are new to steam you have a lovely model there which deserves to be properly looked after and cared for. I agree with Colin in so far as you need to do a bit of reading and the articles I put together in model boats was aimed at people in your position.
You need to determine first whether the engine has been run in correctly, how old it is, whether it has been run on steam etc, to give you an idea of how to progress. Could you please let us know a bit more about the plant such as feed water arrangements control set up, separator location, lubricator etc.. This is all relevent to how you are going to run the plant.
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what I will do is get some pictures and post on here and hopefully that will help give me guidance
cheers
Andrew
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Right here we go - bit of background on this - the launch was one of several I recently bought with a view to resale either now or at a later date.
Ive also considered steam to be a bit of a black art so have not ventured into it at all - however seeing the quality of this model has tempted me into finding out more information.
Hence the initial enquiry on here, and ascertaining the various things to read.
I know absolutely nothing on steam at all - at this stage until all reading has been done I dont even know what the various parts are if they have special names
Pictures hopefully attached below
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First concern is the regulating valve disc is missing. Have you removed it? It's what the servo connects to to control the engine. Without it if you put steam in the engine it will simply escape through the open ports that you can see on the top face.
If you do not know enough about the history I would suggest first running the engine in properly. This is best done with compressed air through a rubber hose and a lot easier if it is outside the boat. Connect the air line to the inlet and, in your case you'll have to rig up a temporary means of by-passing the control valve and run the engine for at least three hours, stopping and lubricating every 10-15 minutes via a hyperdermic into the rubber air supply line and all over the running surfaces such as bearings. Start slowly and gradually increase the revs over the three hours. I would use a light oil not a normal steam oil because if you use a very good steam lubricant the faces will not bed together.
If you don't have access to compressed air then an old inner tube blown up at your local garage will keep you going for a couple of hours and if that isn't possible then you could try using a lathe or a pistol drill to rotate the engine by turning the crankshaft, again oiling regularly.
Only when you've run the engine in like this should we move onto putting steam in it but before then you need to have refitted the disc on the regulating valve. This disc will also need the spring assembly with it and the disc should be carefully lapped into the surface of the valve body.
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Hi - thanks for that - yes it was removed as I needed to access some securing bolts to undo the access area to the electrics.
Some stuff for me to get on with there, will come back soon as completed
thanks
Andrew
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A launch recently purchased has the following steam plant installed:
3/8" Stroke Twin Caton Plant
Included with the boat was paperwork from Maxwell Hemmens Precision Steam Models back in the early 1990's.
Hi Andrew,
Looking at the photos, the engine and boiler look like the Graupner/Willesco combination.
Regards,
Gerald.
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Hi Gerald - definitely the Maxwell Hemmens as the original paperwork invoice was in amongst everything
Andrew
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has the paper work got a picture of the engine on it as I am not an expert on Hemmins engines and boilers but i have seen a few and never seen one with the fluting covers around the cylinders..
peter
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Thats a WILESCO ........THATS IT ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,what ever you have of paper on it........nice toy it is....
Regards Bernhard
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All I know and have no reason not to believe is that the boiler originates from 1991, I have no reasons to doubt the integrity of what has been advised to myself.
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Have a look at the cylinder on this steam traction engine, it is the same as yours down to the covers etc so I think some one has sold you a Wilsco not a hemmins I would have words with them.
Or look at this site http://cedesign.net/steam/brass.htm a version of your engine I think
Peter
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I just happened to be looking through some old issues of Model Boats for something else and found this advert in the April 1985 edition.
Colin
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Peter has it right, Its the Krick Brass Marine Engine from the "The Patricia" model boat kit It has a brass boiler which does not like gas fireing, There were a couple of them around here a few years back and they all leaked. I have the Wilesco D48 set and it has the same style cylinder covers (the original boiler with it leaked too).
Regards,
Gerald.
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I've been wondering if this steam plant was made by Wilesco or by someone else (Krick?) using their parts? Wilesco never had it in their catalogue as far as I know.
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so.......here it is
it is not a Hemmens and will never be.....ok.........
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I would like to refer people to an earlier response I gave >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hi Guys thanks for your offers of help.
Basically any information at all, Ive not used steam myself in a boat before, and I know nothing about starting them up, maintaining adding bits to etc etc
So anything would be super
cheers
Andrew <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
To be honest I really dont give a monkeys who infact has made the plant, I gave the information I had to hand more importantly I wanted to know how to test and use the item.
Im now questioning whether it really is worth all this hassle or not and I go back to the original plan of just selling it on.
Whatever make the item is - it still looks stunning and immaculate as far as I am concerned. One final question before I depart where on the plant would I find the boiler number generally
If anyone wants to buy the boat and would like further pictures feel free to PM me as I will consider
thanks
Andrew
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A launch recently purchased has the following steam plant installed:
3/8" Stroke Twin Caton Plant
Included with the boat was paperwork from Maxwell Hemmens Precision Steam Models back in the early 1990's.
The plant looks almost mint, but I am trying to find out a little more about it.
Has anyone come across this item who can give more information
thanks
Andrew
You asked for more information about it and thats what you got, you where told it was not what you thought it was . which is important because if you tried to run it at the presure a mawell Hemmens runs at it would have gone Bang as it is a brass boiler and will not take the same pressures
Peter
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Also, If you had sold it on in good faith as a Hemmens you may well have got a very cross buyer back on your doorstep!
Colin
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One final question before I depart where on the plant would I find the boiler number generally
As far as I know, Wilesco boilers don't have any numbers. Wilesco safety valves are set to blow between 1-1,5 bar, which you shouldn't exceed.
Otherwise, running the plant is straightforward. Don't forget to lubricate all moving parts and to add steam oil to the cylinder oilers before running. And before starting check that the safety valve is clean and in working condition.
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As far as I know, Wilesco boilers don't have any numbers. Wilesco safety valves are set to blow between 1-1,5 bar, which you shouldn't exceed.
Otherwise, running the plant is straightforward. Don't forget to lubricate all moving parts and to add steam oil to the cylinder oilers before running. And before starting check that the safety valve is clean and in working condition.
Thanks for this good guidance.
Reference the boiler number question, is that I have found amongst the paperwork that came with it all, a Boiler certificate from 1991, ok I know its out of date but it is for a Maxwell Hemmens boiler which all seems mighty weird.
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You asked for more information about it and thats what you got, you where told it was not what you thought it was . which is important because if you tried to run it at the presure a mawell Hemmens runs at it would have gone Bang as it is a brass boiler and will not take the same pressures
Peter
Hi Peter - dont get me wrong Im grateful for all guidance I just felt that a couple of responses and I mean a couple, didnt feel quite right in context to my original enquiry - then again perhaps it was just that Monday morning feeling
cheers
Andrew
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Maybe the documentation inadvertently got swapped with that from another boat - after all it's 18 years ago.
Colin
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I am currently building a 48 inch Stern Wheeler that will have a build weight of about 24.5 pounds with fuel and water. I have an opportunity to bid on a Maxwell Hemmens Canton Steam Marine engine and Boiler with twin 3/8" engine. Will this have sufficient power for my boat or do you have any suggestions?
This is my third steam engine build.
Thank you for your help.
Bob
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I would say that the Caton twin would provide plenty of power for a boat of your size. I have a twin Richmond, which is a small oscillator and it pushes a 48" model that displaces about 32 lbs at way over scale speed so you should have plenty of reserve.
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Andrew, I'm afraid you have to accept that paperwork supplied with a model means nothing as at some point in the models life the paperwork has become lost and the wrong ones attached to your plant. You may have even bought it from someone who genuinely believes that he has sold you a Hemmens Caton but the bottom line is that it isn't and I'm afraid a Caton twin is worth a lot more than a Wilesco so you have to now be honest when considering what to do with it.
If you decide to use the model, and why not it's a perfectly good model to cut your teeth on as regards a first steam plant, then you should do a bit of reading as regards how to look after and operate such a plant and then enjoy yourself at the pond. As I've said above the engine should be run in first and then you can go onto putting some steam through it. The safety valve must be tested long before you even consider doing this so I would firstly put a bit of time into running in the engine and getting to know how it all operates.
I'm afraid a lot of people buy a steam plant and expect it to be as simple as an electric motor but unfortunately you need to put a lot more into it than that. Having said that the rewards to me anyway are far greater so well worth the effort but you do need to have an idea of what you are doing because at the least you could damage the plant and at worst you could hurt yourself.
The articles I wrote for Model Boat Magazine are all aimed at the first time steamer so give just the sort of guidance you are looking for. If you subscribe you can access all six articles on line so it's a pretty useful thing to do.
I get the impression that you are trying to run before you have learnt to walk and are now getting impatient with the model. I can assure you that is normal and you have to reajust your thinking from electric to steam and slow down a bit! Run the engine in, test the boiler and test the safety valve, test the engine on steam on the bench and only then, when you are confident in the fact that it is all going to work, do you put it in the water. You need to then get a feel for how much water the engine is going to use, how much gas it's going to consume and how often the engine lubricator needs filling before you venture too far away from the bank.
If after all this you decide to give up on it you will have missed out on a very satisfying and rewarding aspect of model boating, which is a shame, but you will have to sell it on as a Wilesco plant and not a Hemmens Caton. You may as well advertise the instructions seperately as they are of no use to this model at all. I would stay with it because when you see the point of it all the bug will bite and you will start to really enjoy it, although of course youmight have to accept that you may never see the point!
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Peter has it right, Its the Krick Brass Marine Engine from the "The Patricia" model boat kit It has a brass boiler which does not like gas fireing, There were a couple of them around here a few years back and they all leaked. I have the Wilesco D48 set and it has the same style cylinder covers (the original boiler with it leaked too).
Regards,
Gerald.
Hi Gerald
The guy who sold me the boat as part of a job lot has now finally got back to me, after speaking to the original owner - apparently the boat had spent the last 15 years or so in a glass case and has probably never ever seen water !! - The price I paid was fine for the boat in the context of the job lot so not worried about that - just not quite the bargain I hoped for but good all the same
The proper original paperwork has surfaced and as you correctly surmised, it is the Patricia - no one knows why the Boiler certificate was inside the model though..........good that Ive got the Krick build instructions for the boat as well.
Off now to read Bunkerbarges articles on the Model Boats website and to go from there
Thanks to all, and if anyone has knowledge of this exact boiler (other than potential leaking) can they let me know - unless of course they also know how to stop leaks if they start :embarrassed:
cheers
Andrew
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Hi Andy, just saw this thread for the first time and noted your question about the boiler. I would say it is definately a Wilesco boiler. I used to have the single cylinder, vertical boiler, stationary engine and without a doubt, this looks exactly the same, as do the cylinders for the engine itself and this is something the other chaps have noticed too.
The boiler is constructed of very thin walled brass and is silver soldered, they were usually chromed or brass plated. If you ever sprung a leak, you will have to adopt a very careful technique for repair because you will need to remove the plating from the offending area before you can actually get any kind of material to 'take' to the surface. I would be wary of your gas burner, if it were too fierce, the small safety valve may not cope and excessive pressure may build in the boiler itself. These were only designed to be run using pellets or meth burners. Perhaps this unit had a gas burner fitted to generate extra steam since this boiler was originally inteded to run only one of those cylinders in it's original stationary engine form.
In ignorance, I put some de-scaler in one of these boilers many years ago and it ate through the thin walled vertical tube and turned it into a pepperpot!
I think it's a nice little steam plant arrangement you have there and it should work very well by the looks of the setup. It won't be particularly powerful but treat it gently and don't push it too hard and it should run for years, giving you loads of pleasurable sailing.
Enjoy!
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thanks for this, reading the paperwork it seems that Krick utilised a lot of Wilesco parts in their boilers, but it implies not 100 percent.
Nonetheless your comments will prove very useful for me to remember
cheers
Andrew
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Hi Andrew,
The problem with my boiler leaking (Wilesco D48 also butane fired), I fixed by removing the plating around the leak with fine sandpaper until I could see the brass. I then fluxed the area and silver soldered the hole closed. I used a small hot flame and just played it on the leak area. I then cleaned and rinsed the boiler out with citric acid. The final step was to hydro test the boiler to 50psi (twice working pressure).
Regards,
Gerald.
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thanks for that Gerald Ive printed the tip off and put in with the paperwork
Andrew
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Hi Andrew, welcome to the forum where you will receive top quality guidance (with no bells and whistles ) {-) on running your steam plant, which is as you have now found a Wilseco!!
On your original thread you say this launch came as part of a job lot, is this the only one to have had a steam plant or are there more yet to surface? If so we would welcome some more
images posting of the other models you aquired.
Once again welcome to the fold and may you have many happy hours learning and steaming.......... :-))
Cheers
Rosyth
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Hi - this was a one off - Im going to give it a go and see if its for me or not, Im keeping an open mind on this as I was watching a guy at our lake the other week with one and it was good to see
Andrew
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Thank you so much for all your answers, much appreciated.
I am waiting for it to arrive now and will probably have a lot more questions.
I just found my original Log In once I was a member again. I thought I had signed up.
Oh well.
Bob
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I recently bought a Maxwell Hemmens Canton steam set from 1983 in unfired condition. The first run was very good, but on the second run the Super Heater Coil blew a hole in itself. The motor is an upright 2 Cycle with a 3/8” bore. It is a complete set up with water pump and displacement lubricator and auxiliary water tank. The original disposable bottle and a refillable gas tank with adapter also was included with my purchace.
The tubing appears to be about 1/8” or 4mm and appears to be brazed on both ends to a nut. What type of copper tubing should I use? Should I use another metal? Will silver solder withstand the heat?
Does Anyone know if there is a place I can send the blown out piece to have a new one made?
Thanks
Bob
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did you turn the steam off on top of the boiler at any time ?? that line must stay live when the burner is running , some plants seem to have to many valves on them have you got a picture of your plant as you need to sort the problem out before you re fire with a new heater.
peter
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Are you sure it's an auxilliary water tank? I ask because the Caton plant I have has a seperator tank fitted.
As for the superheater you could simply run the plant on the bench without the superheater fitted, just replace it with a straight piece of copper tube. You can remove the brass fitting from one end, cut the pipe short and then resolder the brass fitting back on the shortened pipe. Silver solder is fine for this job but make sure you clean up the pipe thoroughly before refitting the brass nipple.
Then you simply need to get another length of copper pipe of the same diameter from either a hobby outlet or on the internet and make up your own easily. Make sure you anneal the copper very regularly during the bending process and stop bending as soon as you feel it stiffen. I wouldn't put the nipples back on either until you have bent the pipe to the required shape. There's a good chance you will kink the pipe before you get more experienced with it.
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You could silver solder a patch of copper over the hole, but I doubt that the integrity of the rest of the pipe is adequate.
Greg
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Bob...correctly selected copper tubing from original manufacture even in a super heater application should not decay or loose mechanical properties over the years, where as brass tubing certainly could
As Peter suggests...best to post a few .jpg images prior to making any rectification attempts ...... O0 ....Derek