Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: Stavros on December 05, 2006, 11:59:05 pm
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Now that has got your attention hasn't it well I am not lying it is free the one and only Graupner Fire boat as seen in the your builds section,yes I kid you not it is FREE no BS but buyer collects from LLanberis ANY TAKERS????
oh i forgot to mention you need a set of DIVING GEAR it is located approx 200 mtrs from the slipway,looking down the lake towards Caernarfon and approx 300mtrs from the shore towards Bangor,oh and bye the way it is located in 160ft of water,no loss of life,only to MY BACK POCKET :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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Hard luck Stavros. But before you start a build to replace her....how about that article you were going to write?
Roger in France.
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ON GOING ;)
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Stavros, I fully symapthise, having had my Caldercraft Thames River Tug disappear on me for no apparent reason, in Yeovil club's lake, which is a reservoir! A diver went down, but it was too murky for him to see, and several sweeps were made with improvised boat-catching-devices, to no avail. She eventually turned up two years later, when drought conditions reduced the water level by several feet! Unfortunately very little was salvageable, but a friend gave me one he had been gifted, in a dishevelled state, but now restored to former beauty(A tug, beautiful?)
Danny
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Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;)
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Bloomin Heck the fairies have been at it again ;)
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Who you calling a fairy?!?!? ;D
Just making it a bit easier for searches.....
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What caused the sinking then Savros!
chromedome
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I don't think Stavros actually saw it sink - he was going round the lake to the far bank to retrieve it when it went down >:( I was the last one to see it go (through binoculars - yes our lake is that big and it was that far away). The motor had stopped and despite the efforts of Stavros with his tug and another club member with his "Puffer" to push it back to the bank, the wind was just too strong, it was gusting 30+ mph at times that morning.
It steadily drifted across the lake away from our sheltered bank with the waves getting bigger and bigger until it almost reached the far shore. The wind at that stage was very strong and the fetch plus rebounding waves off the far bank created a extremely turbulent area of high waves - just too much for the model which was swamped and sank.
Don B
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Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;)
Get it out with Optrex!
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Commiserations on the loss of the model mate, it's not nice to hear of one being lost..........
Roy
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Thank you Welsh Druid you beat me to it,never mind a better and bigger one is on it's way,flotation bags,marker buoy all seem to spring to mind!!!!!!
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I dont mean to be morbid or anything but I must sayhow much I enjoyed reading Don.s account the loss of the Graupner Fire Boat. :-[
chromedome
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I was very saddened by your boat loss, Stavros. I can imagine how you must feel. My condolences to you.
I am new to boating, and am building one at present. The amount of hours and the amount of thought and love that goes into putting one of these together, not counting the money involved is horrendous. It must be like loosing a pet.
I cannot get out of my mind, ways of retrieving the boat, once this happens. Surely there is some way. Something could be designed to tackle the problem. I'm not being funny in any way, but they did find the Titanic.
Could not a radio control system submersable be designed ( or direct umbilical cord system) with a camera on board and suitable grapples. Has anyone designed one in miniature yet ?
The other side of the coin is to prevent it sinking in the first place. I thought , perhaps a gas charged balloon activated by sea water. I am aware flotation tanks could be fitted, but this would spoil the lines and design of course.
Please forgive my thoughts and once again, so sorry
Cheers...Ken
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Hi ya there Stavros -
I have tried my many contacts to get in touch with Dr Robert D Ballard - however, I was unable to locate him. Rumour has it he is busy diving somewhere off LLanberis not to retrieve the vessel but to lay a plaque on the said vessel half built, half sailed and half sunk - never to be retrieved - but yet to be proven wrong on the last quotation.
Chin up my old mate Stavros ;D at least you didnt have to sit or even stand and watch it be destroyed by a swan flying in - and landing on top of your pride and joy and literally destroying your model and then spending an hour and a half retrieving all the broken bits and then again......you didnt attempt to put a finished model in the loft of a house only for it to slip out of your hands and destroy itself on the concrete floor :'( :'( :'(
At least yours went down with grace and pride and in the knowledge WE HAVE THE POWER TO REBUILD BIGGER AND BETTER ;D at the expense of the pocket.
Chin up my old mate - we shall fight them on the beaches.
Aye
Bluebird
John E
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Try the local diving club they might be up for the challenge. Also have read of some models recovered in the past by divers especially subs.
Seaspray
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Local diving club,dont think they want to play in 160 feet of cold welsh Lake water!!!!! Good idea though :)
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Local diving club,dont think they want to play in 160 feet of cold welsh Lake water!!!!! Good idea though :)
Bad luck Stavros.
I have thuought about a pinpong ball on fishing line as a marker bouy. This could be stashed below a hatch that floats away. but 50m plus would be needed, of a storng line for 160ft.
My current build will weigh about 12lbs when finished, and with drag, that is a big piece of string.
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I haven't to date but I think all my models will have that expandind foam in them. I couldn't put up with loosing a model. :'(
Seaspray
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A floating recovery device has been discussed elsewhere. It is not easy to conceal enough line for rescue from deep water, without it becoming tangled on release. I have heard of a floatable object secured to the deck with dissolved sugar which dries but then dissolves after a few minutes immersion; dried soap etc.
Remember the string does not have to be strong enough to lift the total weight of the stricken vessel as natural buoyancy will help and you can take the weight as she nears the surface with your arm or some kind of grab.
Roger in France.
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I gotta ask, any ideas how did she sink?
Bob
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Sorry to read about your loss it has properly happened to most of us in one way or anthere but look on it one way you could be saving life on our cost line by giving some some sea creatures a home thats not a bad thing it has been done with real full size ships around the world this time on a smaller scale.
Derrick
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How she sank!!!! it went under the water and played at being a submarine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The whole episode was quite simple really,I sail on a lake that is 3+miles long 3/4wide and 160+feet deep,not your usual little pond but a proper mans lake.As it was such a rough day I was keeping close to the shore as it turned out too flippin close as I side swiped the landing stage sods law dictated and the boat went dead no responce from anything so a tug and puffer was duly dispatched but due to he wind we could not hold stating to stop her from drifting away so off she went on her merry way across the lake,she was going nicely but him up in the sky decided to intervine by blowing a right hooley throwing white water all over the lake and capsizing my little beauty(brings tears to my eyes typing this)and sending her to a premature death.
The only thing I personally can put this down to is Bloomin tamya style plugs that are on power packs had become dislodged somehow in the collision with the pontoon,consequently I have thrown a heap of them in the bin they are now banned from any of my boats or any other model I would rather use choccie block connectors.So lads The moral of this tale is use them blasted plugs at your peril,I HATE THE OPKUSFGBPQUSPSOUG[OFGVB M[QI Q THINGS
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Sorry about the loss but was it not avoidable?
All my boats and my friends, carry flotation, enough so the boat will not sink. OK these are not scale boats (FSR-O and FSR-V) but virtually every free area of the hull is filled with pool noodles, foam pipe insulation, polystyrene peanuts, waterwings, empty pop bottles, anything to keep it on the surface in case the worst happens. Even my hatch has it's own flotation in case it comes off.
This works with high speed crashes, blow offs, punctured hulls and boats that die on the course, why shouldn't it work for scale boats that turn turtle or are swamped?
Secondly, I (and many others) tape or zip tie all electrical connections (battery and servo leads) as these have been known to seperate whilst the model is running.
This may seem like a belt and braces approach but there is too much time and money involved.
A word of warning, spray can foam has a reputation for blowing hulls apart :o
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Stavros,
Thanks for your answer, must have been terrible to see her go.
My sympathy for losing all that work and cost.
Bob
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Tamiya plugs have a locking tab doubt if they came adrift. At times it take a good pull to get them apart . However if they are constructed at home you have to get the connection in them tight first time as I have been caught out.
Seaspray
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w3bby no room see the build in your build section and see why
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Hi Stavros,
Sorry to hear of loss.
Maybe the local police diving team would like to take it on as a training exercise, could be worth a phone call.
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It would be a good idea to ask a local diving club if they could help recover it, maybe offer some £s to a charity of their choosing?
Or as stated earlier ask your local police, RN etc, nothing ventured!!
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@ 160 ft. the undercurrents will have made a mess of her.
Seaspray
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If there were any air left there would have been a risk of implosion. 160ft, isn't that Tri-mix territory with decompression stops longer than the time at the bottom?
Daryl
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OK, OK you guys, I think we get the picture now! Stavros' pride and joy has imploded under the pressure of the great depth and various bits of it have been cast asunder to ride the prevailing currents into the far off dark recesses of that black lakes' depths, forever to be a jigsaw puzzle for some future tv presenter to muse over sometime in the next two or three millenia..... when the lake has finally given up its secrets!
So I guess he will feel a lot better about it now then! ;D
Apologies and commiserations to you Stavros!
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Nice one Brian. Ghouls springs to mind.
About time this thread was closed. :(
Richard :)
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TigerTiger's suggestion of a marker buoy reminds me of the idea incorporated into Darnell kits ( anyone remember Darnell Submarines? ) It was a flush hatch with a cork glued underneath and a piece of soap or Aspirin glued to the bottom and the soap / aspirin glued to the well that the cork sat in. If the model sunk 'with all hands' then eventually the soap / aspirin would dissolve and release the orange painted cork which had fishing line attached to it.... at least you would know where to look - but 160' :o
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Anyone know of other lost model ideas?
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Anyone know of other lost model ideas?
Drain the lake? Expensive! ;)
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TigerTiger's suggestion of a marker buoy reminds me of the idea incorporated into Darnell kits ( anyone remember Darnell Submarines? ) It was a flush hatch with a cork glued underneath and a piece of soap or Aspirin glued to the bottom and the soap / aspirin glued to the well that the cork sat in. If the model sunk 'with all hands' then eventually the soap / aspirin would dissolve and release the orange painted cork which had fishing line attached to it.... at least you would know where to look - but 160' :o
3 mile x 3/4 mile lake and an orange cork. ::)
What are you like with needles and haystacks propshaft ;)
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Drain the lake? Expensive! ;)
Funny you should say that ;) There are two lakes at Llanberis, Lyn Padarn (where we sail) and Lyn Peris which feeds Padarn. (We often sail up Lyn Padarn and then along the feeder stream until we reach the sluice gates between the two lakes.) Lyn Peris is used for the pumped electric storage scheme. This involves pumping water from Lyn Peris to a higher reservoir using surplus electricity and then reversing the flow to generate electricity at peak demand periods. This the only known way of storing electricity for the National Grid. If you are interested see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_power_station
Anyway back to boats. Lyn Peris was drained in 1979 when constructing the scheme and guess what they found - old boats ! Not models though - boats from around 1550 ! So who knows maybe 400 years from now they may find all the models ( and there are more than this one) that are lying at the bottom of Lyn Padarn. :D
Don B
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Anyone know of other lost model ideas?
Fill all free space in hull and removable sections of superstructure with expanding foam and attach one to other with fishing line on roller in hull. If you cant get much foam in the hull any amount will give slight buoyancy, thereby making it easier to lift and also cutting down on the weight of water to be lifted. Just remember to leave openings large enough for the foam to expand to its full volume [this could take a couple of days] other wise it will split whatever its in.
The only other problem is the depth of water. This would work on normal lakes of reasonable depth but I'm not sure how much room 170 feet of fishing line takes up.
Never was one for teaching worms to swim. ;)
Richard
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Regarding marker buoys and release mechanisms, I'm sure I remember reading, ages ago, somewhere about Alka-Selzer tablets, you know the ones that fizz up in water, being used to hold something down, eg a hatch. Water leaks in, tablet fizzes and dissolves, releasing the hatch and up goes the float. 160' of fishing line? Actually not a huge amount of space required, if it was on a reel mechanism of some kind. I know I've seen something on the web, in the last year, regarding a model finder. It was for planes as I remember, more of a home built affair, but I do remember it being sealed and shock proof. It sent out a radio 'blip' which could be picked up on the other half of the unit. It was quite neat and all home designed/built, by a flyer, I think in the US. Of course, it might not work in 25+ fathoms!
Mike
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just to add to the ideas of getting your beloved model back Stavros, could you not use a echo sounder as used on fishing bait boats???
a friend has a bait boat that uses the echo sounder to locate fish upto i think around the 200metre depth but i cant be sure, worth a try just to see if anything shows up.
Jay
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just a pessimistic thought but it would not have sunk streight down directly underneath where it floundered. Currents could have carried some distance away.
Daryl
or you could ask the lady of the lake!
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Just a point I dont think 160ft is a problem for advanced divers - most diving clubs have them, also they would probably jump at the chance to go look for it ; saves diving on the same old wrecks !
cheers rats
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Local diving club,dont think they want to play in 160 feet of cold welsh Lake water!!!!! Good idea though :)
Hmm!! Maybe some of the Nitrox guys would ;D
Normal breathing air sets a max outside dive limit at 50Metres but with Nitrox and Trimix the depths are changing.
They could use it as a training exercise
Declan
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Hi Stavros, sorry for the loss of your boat
but on the subject of salvaging a sunken vessel I see two problems to overcome and one big opportunity
1. Location, trying to locate the exact resting place, if she went down intact she may not be be where you saw it last. I have read somewhere about bait boats with sonar for finding fish, home CCTV cameras now can see in next to zero visibility due to LEDs sending out infra red(i think). because work on low current and low voltage maybe a vessel with a sealed unit that winches said camera (which is sealed) the line doesn't have to be thick so the average depth could be achievable. Maybe someone with electronics experience could rig something up.
2 retrieval. Getting the thing back to the surface may pose a problem. What about a 2 model trawlers with "netting" the netting having inflatable ballons. Once the location is found and being so most lakes have a layer of soft silt, the net maybe pulled under the sunken boat and the tubes inflated or at least attempt to raise via the trawlers even attempt to pull the wreck along the lake bed to shallow waters.
I realise that 160ft is a long way down for model, but most ponds are not this deep.
Maybe I have gotten a Little ambitious and maybe talking nonsense, but I think it would have to be great as a project.
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Oddy B interesting ideas btu why dont the subby lads accept a big challenge find the boat,have a bloomin good weekend on Uncle Stav,now come on ladfs you have subs mount a camera and enjoy a FREE weekend if you can find it !!!!!!
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Just maybe, its worth a try,
A small rowing boat, a fishing rod and plenty,plenty line.
I am sure the angling club would be game to take this on, if only to say, we where here first.
I used to have a real canal boat, I have seen the look from them,surprised that I am still here.
Ah well!!! maybe not,
Unless you want to chance it that is, for a rowing boat does not have remote control ,
except its oars, now if you were to lose that overboard.
Better not, I have said enough.
Happy sailing, thats if you have another, that is.
Bettina
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Stavros,
There is an emergency beacon available for models, it is quite small and would be able to be fitted in the boat somewhere, even in a liferaft, there is a hand held unit which will pinpoint the lost beacon and enable retreival, yes for this model it is a bit late, could be a good idea for the next one...
Roy
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It won't be where you think it is as it would have drifted via the undercurrent to it final resting position.
Just look at the distance the Titanic covered on its way down.
martin
seaspray
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Is this what it what it was like?.... Well it is red !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HuS6sjB-2Y&NR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HuS6sjB-2Y&NR)
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That's really sad. :'(
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Thanks a lot Martin seeing thta really cheered me up :'( :'( :'( ;) :)
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llanberis lake, as in the one by dinorwic?
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A nice man made reef for fish to thrive and divers to explore. ;)
Martin
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I am afraid that Stavros boat in my mind is unrecoverable. The echo sounder idea is a no no, I have to look for wrecks occasionally on a professional basis and believe me it is not easy, even with side scan sonar and very sensitive echo sounders, the only advantage you have in a lake like this is the fact that there is not a lot of current.
A lot of wrecks are found simply by sighting the surface for oil or fuel, this is probably how most recent wrecks are found, the echo sounder and sonar will pick up trailsl of oil from the depths. But electric powered model, not a lot of hope i'm afraid especially at that depth, 160 feet isn't far on the surface, but its a long way down!!
Andy
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That's a touch 'blunt' under the circs.! I wouldn't have liked it... wd. you? Granted gd. pics., but... whwoo... Not after seeing £100's vanishing out of sight... let alone all that hard work........
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Ghost in the shell in answer to your question YES
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that will mean the model will have gone through trmendous currents on its way down, and i am not sure how deep lake dinorwic is, also as its the lower lake to the pump storage system, i wander if the model has or could be sucked up into the turbines when the lake is pumped to the top of the mountain to replenish the header lake (which during generating times emptied totally)
polaris, sad as it may seem and i do not wish to offend anyone, i think that in this case, andy wright is probably correct, 160ft is deep and borderline for scuba, tied in with the currents generated by the pump- storage system of the power station, it may be in a dangerous diving area.
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I wonder if the model has or could be sucked up into the turbines when the lake is pumped to the top of the mountain to replenish the header lake
So it's really true then, some boats when lost do go to that great pond in the sky...
Probably not much consolation though Stavros, I'd be pretty fed up if it happened to me.
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that will mean the model will have gone through trmendous currents on its way down, and i am not sure how deep lake dinorwic is, also as its the lower lake to the pump storage system, i wander if the model has or could be sucked up into the turbines when the lake is pumped to the top of the mountain to replenish the header lake (which during generating times emptied totally)
polaris, sad as it may seem and i do not wish to offend anyone, i think that in this case, andy wright is probably correct, 160ft is deep and borderline for scuba, tied in with the currents generated by the pump- storage system of the power station, it may be in a dangerous diving area.
I'm afraid you are getting a little mixed up here :) There are two lakes at Llanberis (not Dinorwig - that is a small village up the mountainside which has given its name to the Hydroelectric pumped storage scheme) - the lakes are Lyn Peris and Lyn Padarn.
The lower lake for the Dinorwig pumped storage scheme is Lyn Peris - this is further up the valley than Lyn Padarn where we sail though the two are only separated by a huge sluice gate. Any overflow from Lyn Peris flows into Lyn Padarn but this is not strong. The overflow actually feeds into a wide stream entering Lyn Padarn and we often cruise in company up this stream as a change from just sailing around the lake. ( Its good exercise too :D - taking the boats for a walk !) There is a a small flow throughout Lyn Padarn as it exits into the River Seiont but it is not significant.
But you are right about the diving. There is actually a diving school located at the upper end of the lake. They have helped on occasions when a boat has sunk in the shallower waters near their headquarters, but they will not normally consider going into the deeper parts of the lake, the floor of the lake is known to be thick silt and objects (like model boats) have been reported in the past as almost impossible to find in the darkness.
Don B.