Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Steam => Topic started by: kno3 on December 29, 2009, 01:28:38 pm
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Hello,
I have read that some people who have steam plants fitted with boiler feed pumps use lake water to replenish the boilers. Now this would certainly save space in a small boat, since you don't need an extra water tank, but I am concerned about the effect of lake water on the boiler. Who has first hand experience with such a set-up and can share their experience?
Thanks!
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saw a chap make a mess of a boiler once trying that it smelt horrid a boiler run dry. the filtering alone would prob take a lot off space as the smallest speck of Cr*p will stop the pump and that is without the damage due to pollution etc to the inside of the boiler, let us know how you get on.
peter
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I agree with Peter, no matter how much filtering the water goes through it will still contain soluables which will remain in the boiler after the water has been evaporated off.
I have heard of modellers using pond water and, of course, the very early steamers used sea water but they had to be scraped out every couple of days, so I would strongly advise against using pond water.
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I have been using pond water in several boats of my boats boilers for many years and never had any problems, I am also still using my Grandfathers steam plantm which has been in regular use since 1946 ! and again have had no problems, although these days I tend to test the boiler to twice working pressure (well it is 54 years old) which is 240 psi, and its still going strong. :-))
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Maybe it's all to do with the quality of the pond in question?
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I think you are right there BB, my boats are mainly only ever used on 2 ponds, which are both cleaned regularly,(a least the council gets something right) and have nice clean water. There are ponds I would never consider pumping into my boiler (Luton being one---sorry chaps) and even wicksteed I was using a boat with on board water tanks.
I think its getting worse these days as lots of councils are pumping stuff into ponds / lakes to kill weeds / grow weeds / stop the spread of strange waterborne diseases.
%)
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Hi-
i know Malcolm have don that fore 25 years i think ,with no problem,,,,i have made it in my River queen,,bot havent try it on the lake............photo my launch
and Malcolm system.......
Bernhard
Malcolm sai
There is no water tank - water is drawn from the pond, river, lake etc. Pure water is no good as it's electrical resistance is too high, and the level control system can't distinguish between steam and the water
Sorry - forgot that bit. There is no filter - as I said, I've been running this boat for around 25 years, and during that time I've never had any problems due to dirty water. If a leaf or somthing of that sort got over the intake, it would obviously stop working, but with the intake well under the hull, this hasn't been a problem.
As the pump is at about at water line level there has been no problem with picking the water up. When I start, this is usually done out of the water, once running, it is put in the water, and I feel underneath to see how much suction there is. You should certainly be able to feel if the pump is working. Sometimes, one of the non-return balls sticks. If you feel nothing, it will be on the suction side, but if you feel a suck and blow it is the delivery ball that is not working. Sometimes a tap on the pump will cure things. If that fails I loosen the banjo coupling on top of the pump - this also keeps the ball in place and allows the pump to work against no load which usually frees the ball.
Thought I had a photo of the pump etc, but find I havn't. Will see if I can get a good shot of the system tomorrow.
Cheers Malcolm
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Hi,
I've been running my flash steam boat all summer at many locations and drawing all its water from the lake/pond.
The water is sucked by the pumps via a "settling" tank which contains a piece of garden capillary matting to slow the flow down to allow particulates to fall out of the flow.
Even now there is very little debris in the bottom of the settling tank.
Being a flash monotube boiler there is little chance of sediment building up in the boiler, since, being a single tube, it is continuously flushed through.
Ian.
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First- SY Gondola has used lake water for her boiler feed with only a line strainer for the past 30 years with no detriment at all to the boiler.
However a rainwater fed, slate filtered soft mineral water is a lot different to a brackish non-flowing algae abundant boating pond water!!!
The last plant i built onto the cheddar plant a filter box that could use filter paper for coffee machines before the pump, however this is also on Windermere so is not bad water quality to start with!
Basically use your common sense- if the water quality is questionable then a filter is a necessity, and also, something I thought about- a lot of water gauge glasses have a bottom threaded conection that is blanked off- this could be used as a bush for a blowdown valve which then would exit outside the hull- this would get rid of any TDS's that accumulate at the bottom of the boiler.
Greg
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Hi-
i know Malcolm have don that fore 25 years i think ,with no problem,,,,i have made it in my River queen,,bot havent try it on the lake............photo my launch
and Malcolm system.......
Bernhard
Malcolm sai
There is no water tank - water is drawn from the pond, river, lake etc. Pure water is no good as it's electrical resistance is too high, and the level control system can't distinguish between steam and the water
Sorry - forgot that bit. There is no filter - as I said, I've been running this boat for around 25 years, and during that time I've never had any problems due to dirty water. If a leaf or somthing of that sort got over the intake, it would obviously stop working, but with the intake well under the hull, this hasn't been a problem.
As the pump is at about at water line level there has been no problem with picking the water up. When I start, this is usually done out of the water, once running, it is put in the water, and I feel underneath to see how much suction there is. You should certainly be able to feel if the pump is working. Sometimes, one of the non-return balls sticks. If you feel nothing, it will be on the suction side, but if you feel a suck and blow it is the delivery ball that is not working. Sometimes a tap on the pump will cure things. If that fails I loosen the banjo coupling on top of the pump - this also keeps the ball in place and allows the pump to work against no load which usually frees the ball.
Thought I had a photo of the pump etc, but find I havn't. Will see if I can get a good shot of the system tomorrow.
Cheers Malcolm
any one know where to get these pipe fittings in the photo, bought a lubricator with 3/16 tapered thread and I need to fit it into a 'T' on the steam line. There were no fittings supplied , onlt the valve.
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http://stores.ebay.com/thesteamchest
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Thanks all for the comments. I really wanted to hear from people who tried it, less from people who think it not possible ok2
If I go this route I will probably use a filter. I have seen some really small fuel filters, used in models with internal combustion engines. Would they work for filtering water too?
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Can't see why not- they should be filtering the same particle sizes and letting a decent flow through.
Greg
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Can't see why not- they should be filtering the same particle sizes and letting a decent flow through.
Greg
That's a really good idea. If you get one designed for 1/8th scale on or off road cars it will easily handle sufficient flow rates, as 1/8th I/C cars drink fuel at a tremendous rate. Actually, thinking about it, look at I/C model helicopters too, probably the same filters, but again high fuel consumption machines.
For my own part I have never considered using lake water, as half the time I sail on brackish water.
Neil
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hi........yes thats is a good ide ...with the RC filter,,,maby something like this small fuel filter
or make one...i think i will try that,,,just some off this ?photo ?....and come it inside a plastic..rubber tube,,,,,,,,
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Yep that's the kind of filter I meant.
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you would probably be better off with a full size car filter the disposable type they are not that big but a much better filter and the flow rate will not be a problem, although Helli boys do have some nice state of the art ones but expensive
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/INLINE-FUEL-FILTER-NOS-UNIVERSAL-FITTING-FORD-BMC_W0QQitemZ400094347407QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item5d277b408f
http://www.virtualvillage.co.uk/mini-fuel-filter-car-moto-dirt-bike-lawnmower-quad-000110-002.html
and replacment elements could be used on thee own @.99p
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BIODIESEL-INLINE-FUEL-FILTER-UNIVERSAL-FIT-PACK-OF-4_W0QQitemZ120511751597QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item1c0f0f65ad
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2-Fuel-Filter-Honda-Moto-Guzzi-Suzuki-Kawasaki-Filters_W0QQitemZ320468515425QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Motorcycle_Parts?hash=item4a9d697a61
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you could make some scale hoses just use fine mesh.
peter
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Hi-...Look Great,,, thats a real good ide,,,where to get that tube,,and eny more photos off the boat........
Bernhard
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Tube is a cheat it's a stainless steel spring with heat shrink, the springs come in 12" lengths from Polly eng
Peter
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So was Cheddars recommendation NEVER to use tap water based on the concerns regarding the addition of chemicals by the water authority or were they suggesting that distilled was the only acceptable quality? It would have been interesting to hear thier thoughts on the use of raw pond or river water.
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I don't actually ever recall being told anything specific by the people at the factory, but in conversation, possibly with Iain, it came out that boiled water was pretty good i.e. the water left in the kettle after you have made a cuppa. That's what I have been using since I began model steam boating.
Neil
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This is what Cheddar says in there instructions
Peter
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If Cheddar were the be-all and end-all why oh WHY were they advocating the use of de-IONISED water!!!!!!!!!
It should be de-MINERALISED water or distilled water as they call it- or rainwater- which is pondwater!!!
But never never never de-ionised water, ever! >>:-(
Greg
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The man who never made a mistake...never made anything.
And John sure did make a few.
Neil
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Understood, but the instructions that tell all your customers how to operate a plant safely and will be sent out with every engine is NOT the place to make mistakes!
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I just looked a set of operating instructions that I have from a Cheddar steam plant and the instructions read: "It is recommended that purified, distilled or carefully filtered rain water is used."
My guess is that it was a typographical error that was caught later after a number of instructions where sent out. Nobody is perfect I guess. They still where the "end all be all" of steam in my book. I still tip my hat to them.
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Oops, I just noticed that along with the instructions that read to use distilled water as I just posted, there was a separate sheet of instructions included just like the one Peter has posted recommending the use of de-ionized water. That's weird.
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Yes your both right, but imagine your car manual telling you your brake pedal is the accelerator- doesn't matter if it's a typo. a mistake or whatever, those instructions are what tells the user how to use whatever he/she has bought and it's the responsibility of the manufacturer to make sure everything he has said is 100% correct- i'm not knocking his engineering, and boy do I know what it's like to make mistakes in engineering! - but I can't forgive instructions been wrong- it's ink- it should be written, read, re-read, checked by at least another 5 people who know what they're talking about and any mistakes corrected and re-write them there is no excuse in my book, sorry.
Greg
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I completely agree.
As far as your car manual telling you your brake pedal is the accelerator, I think I've seen a number of drivers who obviously got that version of the manual. ;D O0 :}
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You have them over there too....they're everywhere!!! %%
Mind been in American cars they only go fast on the straights.... %)
Greg
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You have them over there too....they're everywhere!!! %%
Mind been in American cars they only go fast on the straights.... %)
Greg
Haha, It's an international phenomenon. %)
The cars I designed and built professionally went fast through the corners also. O0 The last vintage road race car that I built fro myself was a 1963 Ford Sprint Hard top. It had all the trimmings, tube chassis and roll cage, hand made suspension components but the scary part was it had a twin turbo small block v8 which produced a little over 1000 horse power. The car was scary fast and light weight. Wish I still had it but the Misses doesn't. {-)
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VERY nice! Was that the OE engine????? You should get hold of one of our TVR's from over here and tune it up.....
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Haha, It's an international phenomenon. %)
The cars I designed and built professionally went fast through the corners also. O0 The last vintage road race car that I built fro myself was a 1963 Ford Sprint Hard top. It had all the trimmings, tube chassis and roll cage, hand made suspension components but the scary part was it had a twin turbo small block v8 which produced a little over 1000 horse power. The car was scary fast and light weight. Wish I still had it but the Misses doesn't. {-)
Banked corners don't count, you just have to keep your boot on the gas and let the car do all the work.
That's the blue touch paper alight and 5..4...3...2......
Neil
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Yeah, I never cared for banked corners or roundy round tracks . I was more of quiet deserted twisty country road fan myself where most of the steering was done with the gas pedal and rear brakes. %)
Greg,
The engine was definitely not OEM. In fact I don't think a single bolt was. The original engine was offered in those cars was either a cast iron straight six (which produce 65 H.P.) or cast iron V8. The cylinder block I used was an after market Aluminum one.
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twisty country road fan myself where most of the steering was done with the gas pedal and rear brakes
Ahh a man after my own heart :-))
Neil