Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Steam => Topic started by: tobyker on January 29, 2010, 05:22:31 pm
-
Well having asked about silicone tubing in another thread, (thanks for all answers) I found the boiler in the shed, and it DID have a safety valve. On the base I found a twin oscillator I cobbled together from two Stuart ST engines, about 30 years ago. So far as I remember, I found a bit of brass tube that the crankshaft fitted into, drilled out both engine standards to fit the o.d. of the tube and cut the standards leaving the front third of the shaft bore on one standard, the middle third on a foot, and the aft third on another standard. I then fitted them all together on the brass tube, and soft soldered them all together, taking care not to get the tops of the standards too hot. So far as I remember I lengthened the crankpin by sliding a piece of brass tube over the pin, sliding the pin I'd cut off the redundant crank into the tube, silver soldering it all up and then filing all the brass off to leave the longer steel crank pin. Then I cut the web on the crank pin to balance the weight of one piston and connecting rod. like it says in the books about V-twin bike engines (the only way to go!!) It all sems to work far better than it should or I deserve. It seems to self-start really well when its hot, so I may have to make a steam/exhaust distributor reversing block. However, as the ports are rather awkwardly placed, I may need to open out the drillings at the top of the standards. Does anyone know how the plugs are held into the tops of the standards? IE are they tapped in, threaded, or just a loose soldered fit? I don't think its ever been in a boat, but it has driven a very basic meccano steam lorry. My lad took it to school once and they let him run it around the school hall with all the class watching!. No H&S in those days!.
-
Great idea to join the two single engines. I've seen them offered on ebay quite often, and not very expensive, this is a good use for them and gives a nice marine engine if fitted with a reversing valve.
Now you should clean it up well and paint and polish some parts ok2
-
That's a great little engine(s). I have two ST's, they were mounted on a common brass base and linked together by gears into a twin. They were fitted to my first steam boat when I bought it and I eventually got it all going and even made a throttle / reversing valve for it, but it was so pitifully underpowered that the boat used to go backwards in a 5mph headwind {:-{.
Shortly after this experiment I found a local company in Cheddar, who had just started to market a couple of steam engines, a single called the Pipit, much like the ST and a twin called the Puffin. I bought a machined kit of the Puffin and shortly after my model was transformed.
I still have both the ST's, but a base unit hit the scrap bin a long time ago.
Neil
-
How large do oscillator engines go?
Are oscillating engines just suitable for models?
-
there where some full sized ones.
Peter
-
there where some full sized ones.
Like this one from the paddle steamer Empress which you can see in Southampton Maritime Museum.
Colin
-
:o
-
Weren't the Great Eastern's engines Oscillators?
-
Indeed they were - I'm still looking for pictorial evidence to convince Martin. However they also had eccentrics and proper valves, presumably to overcome the oscillator's symmetrical and rather wasteful port timing.
I have now cut the tips off the standards off my ST twin special, and drilled out the plugs in the steam passages so I can feed steam in at the tops via a reversing block. The original inlets and outlets were just too awkwardly placed to make a neat twin.
-
Hi, do you have plans for the reversing valve? I have two 1/2" bore by 3/4" stroke double acting oscillators which I intend to use to power a paddler with both linked to the paddlewheel shaft and timed 90 degrees apart so they will act like a twin and self start. So far I have only found one plan for a valve and it is tiny so any suggestions on what design to use would be appreciated. Thanks, Ian.
-
I've no plans for oscillator valves but on the big ones the steam was fed through the trunnions and I think the valves were on the fixed part. Ask Colin if he's got any more photos of the Empress engines from different angles. I will go check such works of reference as I have.
-
Indeed they were - I'm still looking for pictorial evidence to convince Martin. However they also had eccentrics and proper valves, presumably to overcome the oscillator's symmetrical and rather wasteful port timing.
I have now cut the tips off the standards off my ST twin special, and drilled out the plugs in the steam passages so I can feed steam in at the tops via a reversing block. The original inlets and outlets were just too awkwardly placed to make a neat twin.
http://arnygrimbear.de/GREATEASTERNMASCHINE.htm (http://arnygrimbear.de/GREATEASTERNMASCHINE.htm)
-
well done - thanks. I dunno why they call it a side lever engine though, as it's obviously an oscillator.
I've found plans in KN Harris' book "Model stationary amd marine steam engines" for a paddle steamer oscillating twin which has a valve plate between the cylinder port face and the trunnion port face, driven by an eccentric on the paddle shaft. If anyone is desperate to see it I could scan a page of the drawings in. I suspect this valve plate is a model thing - Mr Harris says it was originated by Mr JL Beilschmidt, see Model Engineer 22 March 1934. So I suspect the full size oscillating paddle engines had a more complicated valving arrangement.
-
well done - thanks. I dunno why they call it a side lever engine though,
http://www.fromoldbooks.org/Evers-SteamAndTheSteamEngine/pages/079-Side-Lever-Engine/ (http://www.fromoldbooks.org/Evers-SteamAndTheSteamEngine/pages/079-Side-Lever-Engine/)
-
I am getting a Mississippi Stern Wheel "Gamblers" Riverboat together, AND with Steam power.
I have been warned off, by those that "know" in the U.S.
There are a couple of kits that look good to me, both somewhat over 1.5 metres.
I have drawings of "OLD" Paddle Boat Engines, but, I am not sure if someone is trying to "con" me. They look authentic, though, but somewhat short on ENTIRE detail..
I think the "V" Twin oscillator would be wonderful, and no HUGE hassles either. It's two Stuart STs stuck together, isn't it?
PM-Research in America make a very good "V" Twin "out of the box", at just US$159+
I have three of them, but am in no way attached to the company, being that my address is way West of there.
A tiny boiler would be the go, in my humble opinion with a feed water set-up at the other end to balance the boat. Then there's a matter of ballast, or, maybe way more important, (on account of the steam, let it ride way lower in the water), so, a huge manipulation of the hull is in order.
That's my opinion, that's all.
I'll let you know how it goes.
(I wonder which boat will win, the Mississippi, or the Imara? Both are in my workshop.)
Neil. :-)
-
BTW = Welcome Neil!! Start a thread on your builds and keep us informed - sounds like you have a couple of good projects underway
-
Hi, and thanks I will try to keep you informed.
Sorry for mis-reading the original message, my vision isn't what it used to be, neither is the rest of my body as it happens. The type face on this forum is quite small, isn't it?
I have a handful of STs here, and that's a fantastic idea.
Could I get some more info on what you did to cobble the Sts? (I'm new, I hope I'm not infringing.) Also, I can't see the name of the person who spliced the Sts, sorry. I suppose I'll learn.
Also, I have a boat that I received for my 8th birthday, in the 50s, but it came with a Frog 150 Model Aero Engine as we used to call them then. Now they're NITRO!! {-)
I have extracted the engine, and, will put some kind of electric motor in probably next week. The poor old fella is a bit "tired" looking, so, next will be a full restore, to the best of my ability.
If I knew how to post photos, I'd show ya. :}
However, as I get along with my projects, I'll let you know. Thanks a lot for your interest. That's very nice.
Neil. :-))
-
Neil, could you please give details of the kits (over 1,5m) that you have found. I have used P & M V twins too and they are very good value for money and run well. I posted above about building a paddler with two single cylinder double acting oscillators and these are the single cylinder version of the P & M engine. I have dealt with P & M but also get good service and prices from John at The Steam Chest. The reason for using the singles is that I can set up an engine on each side of the stern similar to the originals. I was contemplating building from scratch as I had not seen any big kits so it would be good to get info on the ones you have found. To attach photos click on "Additional Options" just below the window in which you type your post. I have attached a photo of my 80" sidewheel paddler. Cheers, Ian.
-
Hi Ian,
I think I'm misleading you. It's been many years in OZ since Imperial was the go, but, the longest Riverboat that I know, (so far) is 48 inches. I'm sorry, but that's about a foot short of 1.5 metres. I'll let you know the model when I can find a better price than I see now. OK?
Now, as to other things, I have a lot of help from friends in America (one calls me OZ, I call him 'Merica, (a bit of fun)), but these guys really know Riverboat models. I can't tell you their names unfortunately, but, what I can get from them, with their ok, I will send on to you.
There are a couple of books that these blokes put me on to;
The Western Rivers STEAMBOAT CYCLOPAEDIUM, and The Western Rivers ENGINEROOM CYCLOPAEDIUM. Both by Alan L. Bates. They are fantastic.
I could tell you where to buy them at the best price, but, I'm waiting for the "go-ahead" from the lady who sold them to me. I'll let you know if she can handle the potential rush.
I have sketches of engines for these models, and a bit more stuff, including tiny copper boilers that will withstand great pressure. Australian made, as it happens.
I am trying to attach a photo, (eventually, I'll get it right), but, I think it's too big. I tried to delete it but, no go. <:( <:(
I'll stop trying now, and get back to you tomorrow with other links/stuff. <:(
Best of luck. :}
Neil
-
Neil asked how I cobbled the 2 STs together. First you find a length of K&S brass tubing which is a close bearing fit on the crankshaft. Then you find a drill which matches to OD of the drill, and whack the drill through the engine standards, or even a reamer, if you are into real engineering - I've got a small one but I can't remember now if I used it. You then have to cut two thirds of the way through one standard from the cylinder side, then cut vertically upwards through the crankshaft hole and then cut horizontally through the last third. So you have a base with one third of the crankshaft bearing hole. Take the back third off the remains of the standard, and the front two thirds off the other engine. (In the case of mine I'd already messed the other engine about for an O guage tram project).Then stick the tube through the holes with the cylinders at 90 degrees and cut and file until it all locks together. You can stick a wedge of spare brass in any huge gaps. Put a damp rag over the tops of the standards, toast the bearing area with a blowlamp and apply soft solder - you don't want to melt the solder which keeps the port drilling plugs in the top ends. Pictures worth any amount of words attached, as I've got it stripped to fit a reversing valve block. I extended the crankpin by hard soldering another bit of brass tube over the pin, with the pin cut off the other shaft in the tube, and filing all the brass off until I had a longer steel pin. It'sa pity ST don't make that twin any more - I think it's a nice little engine.
-
Hi Tobyker,
That's fantastic. Thanks a lot.
Neil. :-)) :} :-))
-
Where are you going to place the reversing valve?
-
That's too sophisticated for me to even contemplate.
Neil
-
I've bought a reversing block as supplied for Mamod and MSS model rly locos. I've drilled out the port drillings on the engine so I have the option of feeding steam in at the side or the top or either, and I intend/hope to mount the block somewhere in space between the two top ends, possibly held by brass manifold pipes sweated into the block and standards. If that isn't rigid enough ( I think it will be, and that will enable me to reduce the mass of the block considerably, I got screws to fit into the mounting holes of the block and will have to make up some brackets.)The block only arrived in the post from Dreamsteam today, and I'm mainly contracted to SWMBO today sanding/staining floorboards and moving wardrobes. I will publish photos when i've worked it out and done it. I do hope I get all 4 pipes connected the right way round!
Note to Neil - a piercing saw is an excellent investment
-
Cracked it on my lunch break - drill even more holes, this time in the back (spring side) of the standards - one set above the spring bosses, one set below and hang the block on edge off the back of the motor. Now to see how tight a bend those brass biro tubes will take!
-
Here is that International boundary again.
What is a piercing saw, Tobyker?
Cheers.
Neil.
-
Hi Tobyker, would love to see a picture and some details of where to get the reversing valve block when you are allowed a break from chores. Cheers, Ian.
-
One of these. Fit the blade so it cuts on the pull stroke. Very useful indeed for fine cuts in metal or wood.
-
The reversing block, supplier as shown. (There are other suppliers of bits for Mamod and MSS locos.) I've already opened out the ports so I can solder in my 1/8" biro tube steam pipes., The outer threaded holes are for fixing the block between the frames of the loco - the ends of this block may well disappear as I probably shan't need mounting brackets - I think the pipes will hold the block in place. The steam inlet and exhaust pipes just push into the holes in the back of the block, and are held by the O rings and the 3-hole plate, pushed against them by the spring. I shall be ditching the O rings and plate, and soldering the pipes in. If you go to the Dream stream site there are so far as I remember expolded drgs of the loco so you can see how it all fits together. MSS do a vertical twin marine engine using this block and the loco cylinders, and if I feel like it I might even have a go at cobbling together a V twin from MSS parts. I forget what the other supplier is called but googling MSS or Mamod parts will find them.
-
Note to Tobyker,
I can't thank you enough for your help and guidance re the "V" twin. Very innovative of you indeed. Thanks for the link too.
We call that saw a fret saw. There were many sizes from memory. I have a couple here, one just like that, and another about half as big again. My memory is trying to find another name too, but it wasn't piercing saw. Fret Saw, and something else. (Isn't getting older wonderful?)
Neil.
-
Are you thinking of Coping saw?
-
That's IT!! O0
Da, da! Go to the top of the class, :-)) (and thanks.) My memory is worse than I thought. (I just can't cope!) Sorry, I couldn't resist it.
Man, have I learned a lot in a week or two on this forum.
I'm wondering about adhesives though to go on the old boat's keel, made of ply, and is separating badly (I don't know why, it's only 60 years old).
Would Araldite do the job?
Is it waterproof? (I know 5 min Araldite is not.)
And, what about paint?
I suppose that's a bit different, as it will only be in the water for an hour tops, and a week to dry off.
I have been using paint from the motor trade on my boilers (if painted) and engines. The paint to which I refer, is what the go-boys use on their disc brake housings, and others on the engine block.
Any comments on that, for water resistance? (I suppose I ought contact the manufacturer.) But, I would value this forum's opinion over a salesman flogging something.
Cheers Neil.
-
Great, thanks for the pics of the valve. Exactly what I have been looking for. I have had one attempt at building one and the less said about that the better! Cheers, Ian.
-
Coping and fretsaws usually have blades with cross pins in the ends like a "Phillips" junior hacksaw. Piercing saws are normally used in the watch/clockmaking trades for crossing out or piercing the train wheels and are straight bladed retained by finger clamps.
Regards Ian.
-
The ST engine has it's inlet and exhaust ports at the sides of the standards. This is not very convenient when it is V-twinned, as you have to pair both LH ports and both RH ports. I had opened up the port drillings at the tops of the standards, but even using one top and one side port would still involve long convoluted pipes. It then occured to me that I could drill into the backs of the standards, and pick up one set of port drillings at the top, and the other at the bottom. The first photo shows the openings I made in the backs of the standards - you can see right through some of them and the openings in the port face. I had considered drilling through the ports to break out of the back of the standards, but I reckoned that would carry too much risk of distorting the ports. The second and third photos illustrate a further problem - because of the geometry of the holes in the standards and the borings in the block, they would not line up without the block touching the flywheel, and at least one of the pipes going through the cylinder springs. However the outer holes in the block for the mounting screws are not bored right through( as are the steam holes). So you can drill out the threaded hole to take a pipe, and drill into the block at right angles to the bores so that the screw hole connects with the steam hole. In the event I used one steam hole and one fixing hole each side of the block, leaving me with two 1/8 holes and two 2mm holes to fill with bits of brazing rod.
I bent the thin walled brass tubing by using a suitable electrical wire from 3-core cable, smearing it with Vaseline and threading it through the annealed tube. I then made two bends in each 4" lenghth of tube, bending it round the top end of the steel shaft of a small hammer. The tube did go slightly oval, so I pinched it round again with a finely adjusted Mole grip. I then cut the tube in the centre between the two bends with a tube cutter, and pulled the two pieces apart. when one was free of the wire, the long end of the wire goes in the vice and the tube is pulled off the wire. Then anneal the four tubes again to give some flexibility for fitting. Then its just a matter of cutting the tubes to length and heaving things about so four ports are connected to four holes in the block, the block sits square-ish-ly to the engine and none of the pipes has to pass through anything solid between the two.
-
The side ports which were now redundant were blocked with unions filled with a piece of brazing rod upset , whacked in from the inside and then soldered. I cut a screwdriver slot in them so I could screw them in. The holes in the top of the standards, the redundant steam holes in the block and the ends of my drillings in the block were filled by more bits of brazing rod, greased with flux paste, hammered in and soldered when the pipes were soldered in. The block was heated three times - once to solder the holes up, once to fix the distributor pipes, and a third time to fit the main steam and exhaust pipes. Pictures of the finished article belw. She seems to run quite well on air, though better in one direction than the other. Maybe she always did - I've not been able to switch rotation without disconnecting all the pipes before. I will investigate and see if I can find out why.
Finally, an apology to all those proper engineers on site who I have upset with this little saga - I think I am probably K N Harris' much despised "practical man"! Still, I have fun playing with little engines in my way and I hope everyone else does in theirs. I'll have to build a boat for the engine now.
-
Again I thank you Tobyker. :-))
Very inventive. I will "give it a go" over Easter.
Neil.
-
Received a steam control valve from Dream Steam today, very good service to have it too the other side of the world in less than a week. I too will be enlarging the ports and soldering in larger pipes. I am a little concerned that it may be too small for the engines I have coupled together which are 5/8" x 3/4" double acting oscillators but I will give it a go. I was interested to see in the early pictures that you used flexible tube on steam and exhaust pipes. Was this anything special? Did you use clips to hold it on? In the early stage of experimenting it would be much easier to use flexible pipe rather than bending up copper tube but I have not tried this previously so any advice is welcome. Thanks, Ian.
-
Good on You Kiwimodeller,
My valve, despite being paid for well over a week ago, has not reached OZ, and NZ is eve further away.
Maybe I have been "dudded"?
On the flexible pipe thing, Saito do it, (I'm not sure if they still do), but, mine, (a tripple plant), for the astonishing amount of money, by the time it reaches OZ, I think a bit more than hospital tubing should be in order.
Maybe they should get lessons from Nick, as to copper tube bending and soldering. (I'll be in the front row when lessons start.)
Neil.
-
Attached (I hope) some photos of my attempt to couple together two P & M Research single cylinder double acting oscillators to make a self starting reversable engine setup for a paddler on the cheap. At the moment they are mounted up on my "try anything" mount to put them in my Waimarie side wheel paddler which I use to try out every steam plant idea I dream up. It is easy because she has a huge amount of room inside and it is easy to couple the engine/s to the paddle shaft with a chain. Eventually I intend to build a sternwheeler for these engines and put the original Rayman back in Waimarie. I received the control valve from Dream Steam earlier this week and took Tobykers suggestion to solder all the pipes in place. Ran the engines on air today and although the valve worked as designed I found a couple of potential problems. At anything less than about 30psi the engines would not self start even though they are double acting and coupled at 90 degrees. This might improve as one engine is new and needs running in. The other potential problem is that at anything over 20psi the control valve leaks quite badly around the periphery of the valve. I guess this is probably because it is designed to run on a little pot boiler of not much pressure. I have played around with some small tube spacers behind the spring on the centre pivot of the valve to up the tension and it seems much improved. The engines are now in the boat and ready to test on steam tomorrow after work and hopefully to sail on Sunday. Will post the outcomes. Cheers, Ian V.
-
The flexible pipe is just silicone tubing as used for w/c engines from the local (!) model shop. I did find the control valve leaked as well - I had tried lapping the faces on (Robert Graham's) emery paper but the lands on the movable part are quite narrow. More steam oil might help - I'm still trying to get my home made lubricator steam and oil tight. I'd suggest, if you can, mounting your reversing block higher so you could have less pipe length in the setup - I wonder if water condensing in the pipes is giving you the starting problem? Also to save weight, if you want to, you could use only one flywheel - my setup does that and runs quite well.
-
The valve is much better once I fitted a piece of brass tubing over the screw to put more pressure on the spring which is now almost coil bound. The valve still moves smoothly and I am sure it will work with the radio. I tried things today on steam (yesterdays tests were only on air) and the valve worked well and the engines will self start one way and almost the other. I am sure this will improve when the second engine is run in as it is still leaking steam at the oscillating surfaces at the moment. The piping is only temporary, when the engines go in to another hull I will mount them horizontal with the valve just above them. Thanks for your suggestions and the contact for the valve. Regrds, Ian V.
-
Glad to hear of progress - I'll try packing my spring out a bit too! Look fwd to seeing pics of engines in boat and action photos.
-
How large do oscillator engines go?
Are oscillating engines just suitable for models?
Bet you didn't know this!
http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/odcuri.Html
(near bottom of page)
-
Well found, Martin! What a delight to read. I should imagine that perching a perfectly good locomotive design upon another set of wheels, as in some of the designs shown, must have made going round corners jolly exciting!
-
This should be a link to a picture of some fairly hefty oscillators!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Oscillating_engine,_and_boilers,_of_Great_Eastern_-_gteast.gif224kB.png