Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: justboatonic on February 13, 2010, 12:34:42 pm
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OK, I think we provided a robust argument to explain why the galaxy isnt teeming with intelligent civilisations. People can argue we havent been looking long enough but the fact remains, if there were so many, we'd be falling over them.
But I digress. There are a number of other simialr scenarios which, for whatever reason, people like to believe are possible. Like the Kennedy assasination conspiracy, people seem to have no problem whatsoever in believing in them or, that one day they will become possible.
Take for example time travel. Well founded in sci fi. It happens oh so easily in Doctor Who, Star Trek and goodness knows how many other forms of the sci fi genre. Time travel isnt possible. It never will be possible. Why? Well if time travel is possible, where are all the 'time tourists'? Oh another they cant make themselves known argument.
But again, like the populuos galaxy, they would give themselves away. Intentional or not, they'd make mistakes. They would interfer just like an erant driver on a motorway may unintentionally cause a traffic jam by having a break down in the middle lane. The knock on effect would become apparent.
They wouldnt just travel to our time, they'd go further back. So how do we know our history hasnt been changed many times?
How, because we have consistent recollections of history handed down to us. We know that ancient Greeks didnt make the leap of discovering steam mechanics. We know the Roman Empire still fell. We know the Renaisance still happened. We know two world wars were raged.
If time travel was possible even way in the future, they havent come this way.
Of course there are theories that you cannot go back in time before the 'time machine' was made. But all you have to do to get around this, is find those other advance intelligent civilisations in the galaxy and 'borrow' their time machine that was built long in our past.
Even so, there are still no time tourists because time travel will never be possible.
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That's that then!
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But surely in an infinite universe and in infinite time everything is possible, it was, is and will be?
The reason we do not know about or detect these things is because they are all an infinite distance and an infinite time from us, perhaps?
Roger in France
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If time travel was possible even way in the future, they havent come this way.
How do you know that? How do you know that this generation's knowledge of history hasn't already been rewritten by a time traveller who has already changed it? We would never know, and that is why we will never know whether any one has travelled back in time or not!
Time travel is only not possible within our current range of perception which clearly dictates that matter cannot be either created nor destroyed but who is to say that this will not change in thousands of years to come? There again maybe we will destroy ourselves long before we discover how to achieve time travel.
Also from what I remember according to Einsteins theory of relativity didn't he prove that time travel was possible?
I still think that people are restrained by thier current learnings and most people find it difficult to understand the concept of infinity. If our existance is within an infinate space then who is to say what is outside our current experience? It is a bit narrow minded to think that we have decided that there is nothing else out there because we haven't experienced it yet just as much as it is to say that something cannot possibly happen in the future because we cannot imagine it. Time will stretch on infinitely forward as it has stretched on infinately behind us and we cannot possibly even imagine what lies ahead millions of billions of years from now.
I think we are now considering time travel within the popular concepts provided to us by the media and we find ourselves restrained by thier shortcomings. Concepts such as 'Time Tourists', "making themselves known' and 'making mistakes' are all concepts generated by current media and we have to think considerably further outside the box than that. Until you really start to think this way tou will always follow the popular arguments and be restrained by them.
Lets try this, how do we know that we will be able to see time travellers?....or hear them. How do we know that in the future time travel isn't common but only possible as a spirit form? How do we know that the world should have been devastated yesterday by a nuclear holocaust but the few survivors went on to create a far greater civilisatiion which, many thousands of years in the future went back in time to prevent it happening and that is what we now see as yesterdays history?
I would say get away from the media driven theories and think a bit more abstract about it all.
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"They" might have been here from whenever, and convinced us that time travel is impossible. And very convincingly, so we can't twig the secret. On the other, more likely, hand, since time travel is impossible (apart from forward, at the rate we are going) "they" probably haven't.
And on the other, third, hand, Julian May's Exile Saga is a good yarn, cheerfully explaining much of Celtic mythology.
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People can argue we havent been looking long enough but the fact remains, if there were so many, we'd be falling over them.
Imagine the Galaxy as the Atlantic ocean...
Imagine the radio waves we are sending out looking for other intelligent life forms (non here!) as the ripples on the water from the stone we just threw in to the sea at Newquay Harbour 10 seconds ago...
Just put's it in perspective eh... {:-{
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Time travel?...
Oh yeah!, some are still in the stone age... ;D
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On a point of order. Hero of Alexandria did build a steam engine among other things, but most of his inventions were suppressed by the Romans, who a. had a very severe case of "not invented here" syndrome, and b. needed to keep the women and slaves busy and weren't about to allow steam powered washing machines and temple door opening devices to be manufactured.
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OK, I think we provided a robust argument to explain why the galaxy isnt teeming with intelligent civilisations. People can argue we havent been looking long enough but the fact remains, if there were so many, we'd be falling over them.
I'm not at all sure that you did. You just paused for a while...
Time travel isnt possible. It never will be possible. Why? Well if time travel is possible, where are all the 'time tourists'? Oh another they cant make themselves known argument.
Well, it's a bit out of my specialist area, but I might hazard a guess that, in the same way that space is very, very big, time might also be very, very big.....
We know that ancient Greeks didnt make the leap of discovering steam mechanics.
I think that tobyker has already pointed out Hero's steam turbine (though I don't know of any evidence that the Romans suppressed any use of such machinery). I might add that Ctesibius's steam engines predate Hero's work by some 200 years, and that both are mentioned with some admiration by Vitruvius, who was a 1st century Roman and certainly not in the business of suppressing engineering inventions.
Steam engines were never suppressed, and have been available to humans ever since antiquity. They were never extensively used until the Industrial Revolution, but that doesn't mean that they didn't exist. Every so often someone tried to develop the idea, but the economics rarely added up. Since this is a marine forum, have a look at Blasco de Garay's 1543 demonstration of a steam paddleship in Barcelona harbour, which is a few hundred years earlier than Newcomen and Watt...
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Even so, there are still no time tourists because time travel will never be possible.
Not so.
For herein, on our planet, grows a particular weed, which, if taken in copious amounts, will take you to just about anywhen you so desire.
Me, I left for planet Pluto roughly twenty minutes ago, and, when I next looked at me watch, it was next Friday already.
Be prepared to lose unexplicable time losses if you wanna get into the realms of time travel.
On the plus side, you do get to learn other little gems, such as the answer to the largest number, etc.
...and things such as what becomes of men when they forget their missus on Valentine's Day.
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Time travel is perfectly possible - it's just that it is only in one direction....
Oh, and the Romans had heavy artillery using wood and horesehair technology but no less effective for that.
Colin
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It is odd to note that the title of this piece is "Theoretical impossibles - Time Travel".
While time travel may be PRACTICALLY impossible (apart from Colin's comment that he can manage 1 hour per hour!), and it is certainly practically impossible for us at the moment, it has been noted for a long time that our current understanding of the laws of physics do NOT forbid time travel, and many people have proposed theoretical techniques to achieve this - things like wormhole manipulation and Tipler cylinders (which Hawking believes won't work)
So the one thing we can't show at the moment is that Time Travel is THEORETICALLY impossible - indeed it seems to be theoretically POSSIBLE. People have recoiled from the paradoxes involved, and suggested that it must be theoretically impossible, but these suggestions are mere conjectures, and nobody has yet been able to show how it can be THEORETICALLY ruled out.
If Justboatatonic does have a theoretical approach which will achieve this, I respectfully suggest that Mayhem is not the ideal place to publish it - for one thing I'm not sure we all have the necessary maths fonts loaded on our systems to be able to view the proof....
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There is also another commonly perceived paradox.
If you put an old person and a young person together, time will pass much more quickly for the former than it does for the latter but they will both start and finish at the same point relative to the outside world. %)
Colin
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All depends on what you define Time as. We only know time in seconds minutes hours days etc. What is time??? Time could be something that we just don't know the full extent of, what if there was more to it. Humans are only just starting to reach their true potential and anything is possible.
Regards David
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There is also another commonly perceived paradox.
If you put an old person and a young person together, time will pass much more quickly for the former than it does for the latter but they will both start and finish at the same point relative to the outside world. %)
Colin
Alas, Colin, you are talking about perception rather than the physical entity that time actually is.
You will find a lot of this covered in Edmund Husserl's 'Phenomenology of Internal Time Consciousness' - a seminal book in the field and one that caused me a lot of headache as an undergraduate. Heidegger's ' Being and Time' is also worth a glance (or a decade of study, depending on how good you are at following ideas expressed in a technical philosophical language which is a mixture of classical Greek and German. {:-{ )
Compared to the philosophical school of Phenomenology, relativistic maths is comparatively easy...
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Alas, Colin, you are talking about perception rather than the physical entity that time actually is.
Of course I was aware of it, just seeing if somebody would take it seriously - and you did!
I think, therefore I am, I think - maybe? But not too much on a Sunday morning. I'd rather just read the papers...
Colin
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Of course I was aware of it, just seeing if somebody would take it seriously - and you did!
I think, therefore I am, I think - maybe? But not too much on a Sunday morning. I'd rather just read the papers...
Colin
Ah - I apologise - I'm heavily autistic, and only ever consider things seriously...
If you want a bit of light reading on some aspects of Husserl's comments on time, there is a one-pager here:
http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~davidt/TimeHsrl.html
More Sunday afternoon in the pub than Sunday morning..... :-)
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I think, therefore I am, I think - maybe?
or even - "I think I am, therefore I might be"
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I think I am Dodgy Geezer, therefore I am Dodgy Geezer....
Yup, seems to work...
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But you could be Geezer Dodgy - how would we know?
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How do you know that? How do you know that this generation's knowledge of history hasn't already been rewritten by a time traveller who has already changed it? We would never know, and that is why we will never know whether any one has travelled back in time or not!
Time travel is only not possible within our current range of perception which clearly dictates that matter cannot be either created nor destroyed but who is to say that this will not change in thousands of years to come? There again maybe we will destroy ourselves long before we discover how to achieve time travel.
Also from what I remember according to Einsteins theory of relativity didn't he prove that time travel was possible?
I still think that people are restrained by thier current learnings and most people find it difficult to understand the concept of infinity. If our existance is within an infinate space then who is to say what is outside our current experience? It is a bit narrow minded to think that we have decided that there is nothing else out there because we haven't experienced it yet just as much as it is to say that something cannot possibly happen in the future because we cannot imagine it. Time will stretch on infinitely forward as it has stretched on infinately behind us and we cannot possibly even imagine what lies ahead millions of billions of years from now.
I think we are now considering time travel within the popular concepts provided to us by the media and we find ourselves restrained by thier shortcomings. Concepts such as 'Time Tourists', "making themselves known' and 'making mistakes' are all concepts generated by current media and we have to think considerably further outside the box than that. Until you really start to think this way tou will always follow the popular arguments and be restrained by them.
Lets try this, how do we know that we will be able to see time travellers?....or hear them. How do we know that in the future time travel isn't common but only possible as a spirit form? How do we know that the world should have been devastated yesterday by a nuclear holocaust but the few survivors went on to create a far greater civilisatiion which, many thousands of years in the future went back in time to prevent it happening and that is what we now see as yesterdays history?
I would say get away from the media driven theories and think a bit more abstract about it all.
Some very abstract 'what if's' there BB! So, not only are time tourists possible but, they also have the ability to be invisible and unheard. Hmmmm.
Nope. as with all these things, occam's razor applies even before we go on to consider the physics involved.
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But you could be Geezer Dodgy - how would we know?
More to the point, how would I know?
I know, I'll ask the wife....
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Who cares???
Paul... %)
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Nope. as with all these things, occam's razor applies even before we go on to consider the physics involved.
Would that be the one with 5 blades, or the electric version?
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Would that be the one with 5 blades, or the electric version?
Erm, the simplest one :-))
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As much as time travel appeals to me for all sorts of reasons - alas, I have concluded that I shall never be able to do it.
To go back in time means that my presence/being must still be in the past and as I have come from the future means I am effectively doing two things at once, my wife says I am incapable of multi-tasking, ergo, I can't time travel.
As my wife obviously thinks she can - I should like to volunteer her for any experiments......
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As much as time travel appeals to me for all sorts of reasons - alas, I have concluded that I shall never be able to do it.
To go back in time means that my presence/being must still be in the past and as I have come from the future means I am effectively doing two things at once, my wife says I am incapable of multi-tasking, ergo, I can't time travel.
As my wife obviously thinks she can - I should like to volunteer her for any experiments......
Time travel would, if possible, have the potential to open all sorts of paradoxes (is that a word!?). However isnt it quatum mechanics that shows light photons or some other exotic particles can be in two places at the same? Hmmm, another thread for the future!
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I haven't got the time for all this, swmbo says I have to get the dishes washed......
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Just a thought...
If you travel a set distance at a set speed say 1 mile at 60 mph, then you double your speed but keep the distance the same you get there in half the time, then you double your speed again etc, get there in half the time, then double your speed etc = half the time again.....so you keep doubling your speed until you are in therory in two places at the same time and in fact you never left where you started from in the first place .....................or you are occupying all the time and space on your route at the same time.
" Simples " :-)) :-)) :o
Sub.
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It is an old, old question (well a variation on the original) which comes from one of the Ancients, Zeno the Eleatic philosopher, who described a race between Achilles and a tortoise. But the mistake he and all the Greeks made was they did not take time into their mathematics. Clearly with Newtonian mathematics we can work out when Achilles passes the tortoise.
I think your variation is built on the fallacy that you can never be in two places at once, you are just infinitely getting smaller fractions.
Roger in France
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{-) {-)I think you all are missing one vital statistic,All the police boxes have dissapeared so there isn't a Tardis to be had at any price.The nearest I've come to time travel is when I had a stomach bug.I had to make several trips to the bathroom pdq.
regards Brian
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If you look at all the most "popular" Biblical events, they were always well attended.
So lets say, in the middle of the dessert, someone wants to do some water walking.
Suddenly, there are 5000 people watching!! Don't tell me they just happened to be dropping by!
No, they were time tourists. Obviously dressed up as 'locals' to avoid detection.
And all the extra crumbs, etc - was because they brought their own packed lunch!
The original loaves and fishes were nicked as souvenirs.
(Thanks to Bob Silverberg's "Up The Line" - except the last bit) %)
Time travel isn't possible anyway, since DeLorean went bust.
Danny
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It is an old, old question (well a variation on the original) which comes from one of the Ancients, Zeno the Eleatic philosopher, who described a race between Achilles and a tortoise. But the mistake he and all the Greeks made was they did not take time into their mathematics. Clearly with Newtonian mathematics we can work out when Achilles passes the tortoise.
I think your variation is built on the fallacy that you can never be in two places at once, you are just infinitely getting smaller fractions.
Roger in France
So then Roger if you keep doing it and as you say you just keep getting smaller fractions ....then how small does a fraction have to be until it becomes negligible and therefore makes no difference..???? %)
Sub.
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3 shillings and sixpence..
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Just a thought...
If you travel a set distance at a set speed say 1 mile at 60 mph, then you double your speed but keep the distance the same you get there in half the time, then you double your speed again etc, get there in half the time, then double your speed etc = half the time again.....so you keep doubling your speed until you are in therory in two places at the same time and in fact you never left where you started from in the first place .....................or you are occupying all the time and space on your route at the same time.
" Simples " :-)) :-)) :o
Sub.
Doubling your speed ad infinitum doesnt mean you'll eventually be in two places at once. You just be travelling very fast, up to the theoretical speed of light (which BTW Im going to make as the Next Theoretical impossible!) and in a place for a very short period of time.
The fact that you are travelling very fast is just the same as travelling slowly, you are only in one place at a time for either a short period or long period depending on your speed.
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There is also another commonly perceived paradox.
If you put an old person and a young person together, time will pass much more quickly for the former than it does for the latter but they will both start and finish at the same point relative to the outside world. %)
Colin
Er, no.
Time may appear to pass more slowly for the older person but it wont actually do so. That's just one's impression of different 'time' not an actual effect. They will both experience 60 seconds equalling a minute, 60 minutes equalling an hour and so on.
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I thnk I made it clear I was joking earlier....
people take these things too seriously!
Colin
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I thnk I made it clear I was joking earlier....
people take these things too seriously!
Colin
Its a serious subject Colin :-))
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The first person to put time in a jar and show it to everyone will be able to travel on/in/with it and forever shall be hailed as the original time traveller- shame time doesn't exist and is only a precise (almost- 365.25days in a year- .25 days is 6hours or 360minutes- thats quite a margin of error) measurement of something that human comprehension has no other way of describing.
Perhaps we should be pressing our local councils to spend a bit more cash on the slowly diminshing travel resource we call tarmac before we contemplate becoming Dr. Who's next apprentice (i'm not blonde, female, attractive or in possesion of a sixth sense so i'm not holding out for a career as a time lord anyway!)
Greg
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Time travel is possible, and it happens on a daily basis.
You perhaps have experienced it your self. Well perhaps
not that you yourself have traveled in time, but that
objects around you can and will at any moment travel
through time.
It is a theory, and statement of fact made by one
Clifford Shaw of Edmonds, Washington USA. An old
codger by any sense of definition, but also a good
friend and mentor. His modeling skills, electronic ability, and
general common sense were always outspoken for
the benefit of others.
On one particular day I was visiting Cliff to get some
transmitter modifications straightened out. After a bit
of general banter we proceded to dig into the transmitter
and disassemble a bit here and a bit there. Drill a few holes
and wire in some new switches. As we got around to
reassembling the all the bits, one of the key pieces turned up
missing... We looked all over the work bench, and then the floor.
However the bit was nowhere to be found.
Being the common sensed person he was, Cliff declared that
the "bit"was probably time traveling... And that this was a good
point to take a break and have lunch. During lunch, I expressed
my dismay regarding the missing bit of my transmitter. Cliff looked over
his plate, and reached for his drink to wash down a bit of sandwich.
He said, "It will be there when we go back." I must have looked a bit
puzzled, because Cliff smiled. This happens all the time. Especially with
small bits on the work bench. Car keys, the wallet... You put something
down and suddenly can't find it... It's Time Travel....
How's that? I asked...
Cliff continued, small things travel in time. You may have just had something
in your hand, set it down, and poof, it's gone. You look, and look, you expand
your search, and still can't find what you've lost. That's because it's traveling in time.
You can't find it, because it's not here anymore. The best thing to do is take a
deep breath relax and do something else till it decides to return, because it always
certain that you will find what you've lost, in the future... ok2
And after lunch, we went back to the work bench, did a quick look round, and there
was the "bit", sitting plain as day... "Time Travel... ", I muttered...
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Hang on a minute.Time doesn't pass slowly for me.It's no sooner Monday than it's Sunday again,I really don't where the time goes now days.I don't know how I ever found the time to go to work
Brian
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I seem to remember reading years ago that if you traveled to the nearist star and back at just below the speed of light (Say 4 years at the speed of light each way) you would on your return be quite a bit younger than the people who stayed behind because time would pass much more slowly at hight speeds ????
Perhaps this could be counted as a form of time travel ???? {:-{ {:-{ {:-{
Freebooter
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Yes, there a number of science fiction novels based around that concept which allow people to visit the far future but of course the 'travel' is all one way. You could get the same effect by putting yourself into periods of suspended animation.
In America (where else?) I think there is a company who will detach your head and freeze it if you die of some incurable illness on the premise that in a hundred years or so they will be able to unfreeze you and build you a new body. However, I believe that the freezing technique does irreversible damage to the structure of your cells by crystallizing their contents.
Colin
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I know what you mean, Colin. -11 and -12 here on two consecutive days. And it's not just my brain that's numb!
And they say Expats should not benefit from the heating allowance. Trouble is, in the height of summer I also need a cooling allowance!
Roger in France
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Aaaah, poor Roger. I've just had a very nice bottle of French red 'cooking wine', which we brought back on our last visit.
It was the equivalent of £1.20 a bottle, and very nice too!
I can see you need all the sympathy you can get in your "hostile environment".
Keep your chin up, it wll soon be Spring (about a month earlier for you).
We're all thinking about you.
( >>:-( >>:-( <:( %) :P )
Sante
Danny
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And after lunch, we went back to the work bench, did a quick look round, and there was the "bit", sitting plain as day... "Time Travel... ", I muttered...
Although written in a light-hearted way, I reckon there is more than just an ounce of truth in what you are saying.
The exact same scenario has happened here - numerous times. It's always the same story; you put something down, and then, when you want it again, you find that it's suddenly disappeared. No amount of searching will find it, but the spooky thing, it usually re-appears once you have left the room, because when you return, it's exactly where you left it before it went missing.
I'm not sure about the time-travel slant, even if it does sound plausible/wondrous, but I for one would dearly love to know where these things go when they do disappear. Better yet, I'd love to know who is responsible for taking them. And why always take them when we are not looking?
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Also, just as an aside...
I must have looked a bit puzzled, because Cliff smiled. This happens all the time. Especially with
small bits on the work bench. Car keys, the wallet... You put something
down and suddenly can't find it... It's Time Travel....
I can identify with that.
So just as one of those sheer suck-it-and-see questions... What if time travel is indeed possible, but what if Cliff was only half right? For instance, what if the missing piece had remained in its exact same dimension all along, but it were actually you and he that had time travelled.
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I seem to remember reading years ago that if you traveled to the nearist star and back at just below the speed of light (Say 4 years at the speed of light each way) you would on your return be quite a bit younger than the people who stayed behind because time would pass much more slowly at hight speeds ????
Perhaps this could be counted as a form of time travel ???? {:-{ {:-{ {:-{
Freebooter
You're on the right track JJ. You do not even have to travel at the speed of light to experience it either. If you have two atomic clocks at say Heathrow, put one on a plane and send it on a circumnavigation flight around the world while the other stays in the same place. When the clock on the plane returns to heathrow and its time compared to the time on the clock which stayed in the airport, the clock that flew around the world will show a time behind the stationary one. In other words, it will have aged less.
The faster you travel, the more marked this effect is. So, if one clock flew at virtually the speed of light the time on that clock would slow compared to the clock on Earth. If you made the round trip to Alpha Centauri and back at virtually the SOL, hundreds if not thousands of years will have passed by the time you return to Earth.
If you travel at the SOL, time actually stops.
Although this could be said to be a form of time travel, its not time travel in the sense that you can go backwards into the past or forwards to the future.
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Although written in a light-hearted way, I reckon there is more than just an ounce of truth in what you are saying.
The exact same scenario has happened here - numerous times. It's always the same story; you put something down, and then, when you want it again, you find that it's suddenly disappeared. No amount of searching will find it, but the spooky thing, it usually re-appears once you have left the room, because when you return, it's exactly where you left it before it went missing.
I'm not sure about the time-travel slant, even if it does sound plausible/wondrous, but I for one would dearly love to know where these things go when they do disappear. Better yet, I'd love to know who is responsible for taking them. And why always take them when we are not looking?
It is possible that the spontaneous disappearance of what we think of as inanimate obects is that we are wrong about them being, as it were, inanimate. From the Wiki entry for Hugo Rune, guru's guru -
Mystery of the Biro- Biros are actually sentient creatures that hate their role in life and constantly seek to escape
and
His other theories include the Small Screw Phenomena- whereby the appearance of two small screws whenever an electric device is taken apart and put back together is explained by the fact that screws breed inside electrical appliances
Further information can be found here
http://www.welsh-nutter.co.uk/rune/time.htm
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For more advanced reading of the "Ultimate Truths" and Hugo Rune , refer to the works of that noted scientific writer Robert Rankin.
Works for me ...
Danny
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For more advanced reading of the "Ultimate Truths" and Hugo Rune , refer to the works of that noted scientific writer Robert Rankin.
Works for me ...
Danny
Good grief!!! Did Rankin write about the guy?? {-) Come to think of it, Rune did a bit of time travelling....
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... If you made the round trip to Alpha Centauri and back at virtually the SOL, hundreds if not thousands of years will have passed by the time you return to Earth.
If you travel at the SOL, time actually stops.
Although this could be said to be a form of time travel, its not time travel in the sense that you can go backwards into the past or forwards to the future.
Why not? That last sentence hardly makes sense. If I can get in a box for a minute of my time and come out a week later compared to everyone else, then I have traveled forwards into the future.
Which seems to be a little at odds with your assertion that time travel is theoretically impossible.....
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Why not? That last sentence hardly makes sense. If I can get in a box for a minute of my time and come out a week later compared to everyone else, then I have traveled forwards into the future.
Which seems to be a little at odds with your assertion that time travel is theoretically impossible.....
The last sentence makes complete sense. When people talk of time travel, they general mean time travel as in sci fi programmes such as Dr Who etc ie physically moving backwards into time that has passed or into the future into time that has not yet happen from our perspective.
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The last sentence makes complete sense. When people talk of time travel, they general mean time travel as in sci fi programmes such as Dr Who etc ie physically moving backwards into time that has passed or into the future into time that has not yet happen from our perspective.
But this person is moving into future time. He disappears, and when we see him next it is a week in the future and he has only aged a few minutes....