Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Steam => Topic started by: MichaelK on March 23, 2010, 10:05:08 am
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Hi. I've just bought one of these steam engines.
The build is going well until now. Maybe someone who has built one came across the same problem, or someone with better engineering knowledge than myself can help.
Building the valve gear assemblies, there are 2 small bushings that go into the offset links and into the 2 hole links. The same bushings go into the Eccentric straps as well.
Should these bushings be a tight fit in the respective links, (which means the links move by pivoting on the screws) or are the bushings loose enough to rotate in the respective links(which means the links move by pivoting on the actual bushing)
When I tighten the screws, the links won't move, and if I leave them loose enough to move, I worried that they might come loose in normal usage.
Hope someone can help, before 1) I get too far into the build, and have to unbuild the whole thing, or 2) I start the engine up and things go really, really pear shaped.
Thanks
Mick
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Can't remember how tight they were when I've assembled mine, but I suggest tightening the screws only so much as to have free movement in all linkages. If needed you can tighten them later on too, as they are accessible without disassembling he engine.
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I think the bushings are to protect the alloy arms they fit in, the bushes take the wear away from the alloy parts, I think its OK if they are a relatively loose fit.
Andy
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This confused me too, and I seem to remember that the instructions tell you to file the bushings down until they are flush with the aluminium (aluminum?) links. This only deepens the mystery, as I'd think that the bushes should be fixed to give the links a larger bearing area, and the bushes don't have to wear od the threaded steel screws. One of mine did come loose while I was running it in with the bicycle track pump and rice pudding tin receiver, but I tightened it up again and it's not loosened again despite far longer running sessions with my new compressor. You could of course ask Robert Graham, and let us all know what he says!
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Thank you folks.
I've now got 3 different opinions\views\usages!!!! :D
I've emailed Robert Graham twice on the subject, still no answer from the man who should know the definitive answer. Apparently this is a part time occupation for him, so a reply might take time. Meanwhile I can continue lapping.
Mick
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Bushes are normally fitted in high wear locations so that the bush or its pivot can be replaced when worn. Which is easier to replace, a brass/bronze/gunmetal sleeve and pivot screw or the bit the bush pushes into??
Regards Ian.
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Thank you folks.
I hav'nt heard from the manufacturer yet.
I've got the little engine running (on air), and guess what????
Pivots unscrewing!!!!
So I pulled the valve actuating arms off, and used Loctite to secure the screws.
I'll find out tomorrow if it works.
In passing, the bushes are meant to be a tight fit in the variouse arm etc, and the wear happens on the flange of the bushing.
Mick
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Update.
A really small(really, really small, like on the end of a small dia piece of copper wire!) amount of Loctite has cured the loose buhsings etc.
Now it's leaking air. :((
I pulled the top half apart, leaving all the valve actuating apparatus in place. (it is quite easy really!) , cleaned it all ,and re-assembled it using Loctite gasket replacement. Apart from a little leak from the bolts next to the air-ways, (fixable with careful application of Loctite)
Air leaks out from between the under side of the cylinder mount (the square-ish bit of aluminium) and the top of the crosshead guide(the brass bit that holds the sliding bit that screws onto the bottom of the piston). I'm thinking it could be comming down via the bolts that hold the crosshead guide ot the underside of the cylinder mount.
Before I pull it all apart again tomorrow, has anyone had a similar problem? Does anyone have a solution??
And befor anyone asks, I am quite good with small mechanical bits and pieces!
Thanks
Mick
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Sounds more likely to be the bottom cylinder cover gland if it's coming down the cross slide.
Turn the engine upside down and put a thick soapy solution on it with pressure on the piston- this shouldl show you were the air is leaking from.
THEN WASH THE ENGINE IN WARM WATER AND THOUROUGHLY OIL IT EVERYWHERE!
Greg
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Update.
A really small(really, really small, like on the end of a small dia piece of copper wire!) amount of Loctite has cured the loose buhsings etc.
Now it's leaking air. :((
I pulled the top half apart, leaving all the valve actuating apparatus in place. (it is quite easy really!) , cleaned it all ,and re-assembled it using Loctite gasket replacement. Apart from a little leak from the bolts next to the air-ways, (fixable with careful application of Loctite)
Air leaks out from between the under side of the cylinder mount (the square-ish bit of aluminium) and the top of the crosshead guide(the brass bit that holds the sliding bit that screws onto the bottom of the piston). I'm thinking it could be comming down via the bolts that hold the crosshead guide ot the underside of the cylinder mount.
Before I pull it all apart again tomorrow, has anyone had a similar problem? Does anyone have a solution??
And befor anyone asks, I am quite good with small mechanical bits and pieces!
Thanks
Mick
Did you use the provided paper gaskets when assembling the engine? I f not, you need to do very careful polishing of the surfaces to get them steam-tight. I recommend using the gaskets, it's much easier.
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Thank you gondolier88 and kno3,
Yes, I used the supplied gaskets when I first put the engine together. That left a dark ring around the cylinder heads, from the (?) neoprene "O" rings. Also a lot of black stuff all over the engine. Not a major problem!
When I pulled it apart, I re-lapped all the bits with 1200 wet & dry, so they are now quite shiny.
After putting it all back together, using gasket replacement (Loctite) on the top of the cylinder, bottom of the cylinder and also on the top of the crosshead guide, it is now leaking from the under side of just one cylinder. A little bit from the cylinder head, (fixable!!!)
When I put it back together,looking closely, the "land" between the cylinder bore and the bolt hole varies around the diameter of the cylinder that is leaking. On one side it's about 1and half mm, on the other it's almost zero mm. Therefore,air can go from inside the actual cylinder, through the bolt hole, and escape down and out from the joint of the crosshead guide and the cylinder mount.
I've emailed the manufacturer in the US regarding the issue of the bushings, so far without a reply.
Has anyone had a problem with questionable machining of these engines?
It is now getting close to the stage where I'll have to ring the man on the phone to try and sort out this problem.
Thank you,
Mick
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Hi Mick......Dee Why is just up the road & across the water a bit from John in Balgownie & me in Corrimal {-) or 100 km as the crow flys
Keep us posted on your build...as many here love steam %% .....
I would hope "from the (?) neoprene "O" rings" is not correct as Buna/nitrile/neoprene is only OK for say 98 degrees C.....in wet dynamic applications
Typical model steam boiler discharge temperatures @ 2.5 Bar will be approx 150 degrees C..........from this one could expect the engine inlet manifold temperature to exceed 115 degrees C ... a simple check with a digital pyrometer will substantiate the actuals......
Just re-reading your posting,...it sounds like your pre machined kit has 1.5 mm clearance between a cylinder bore & the major OD of a cap tapping on one side ........& then near ZERO clearance between the bore & the tapping's @ 180 degrees........
Or in lay terms ....the PCD for the cap tappings is not concentric with the cylinder bore O0 ....Derek
Derek
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Mick, my Graham engine was perfect, I had no trouble with it. Sounds like yours might have a manufacturing problem, perhaps you need a replacement cylinder.
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A picture would really really help here! :-))
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Thank you people,
I thought they were neoprene, obviously not, but they are the O rings supplied with the kit.
I was down in the Shire on Sat. could have kept going! Where and when do you sail?
Next time I pull the engine apart, I'll try and take a photo of the offending part.
At the moment the engine is running as sweet as a swiss watch (on air) I'll do a leakage test tomorrow, and then probably have to telephone the states at some time Mon night to try and get onto the manufacturer.
Mick
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I just remebered what steam o-rings are made of, I can never remember the name and last night was no exception!- You want 'Viton' o-rings
Greg
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Or silicone........ :-)) Derek
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Is that so Derek, are they pure silicone?
Greg
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Viton sounds about right. :-))
I used Viton-A o rings as the oil seal on Ducati Motorcycle valve guides many years ago, There is a lot of heat and friction in a cylinder head!
Mick
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Greg - yes - Viton is technically rated to 205 degrees C, however in a wet dynamic application this is reduced to approx 195 degrees C - I fully acknowldge Viton [FPM] is more readily available over silicone grades - I understand that one French model steam engine manufacture uses silicone O-rings & teflon back ups..... here are a few notes on silicone O-rings courtesy of a GOOGLE serach ......Derek O0
O-Rings are available in five different materials from Scientific Instrument Services. Each type has its advantages and disadvantages as listed in the O Ring Comparison Chart. Silicone is a popular O Ring which is commonly red in color. they are popular for use in scentific instruments such as GC injection ports which use high temperatures.
SILICONE RUBBER (Si) Typical Trade Names:
•Rhodia Rhone Poulenc
•Silastic Dow Corning Corp.
•No trade name General Electric
•No trade name Stauffer Chemical Company
The silicones are a group of elastomeric materials made from silicone, oxygen, hydrogen and carbon. As a group, the silicones have poor tensile strength, tear resistance and abrasion resistance. Special compounds have beer made which have exceptional heat and compression set resistance. High strength compounds have also been developed but their strength does not compare to conventional rubber. Silicones possess excellent resistance to temperature extremes, Flexibility below - 175 degrees F (- 114 degrees C) has been demonstrated. The maximum temperature at which silicones are recommended for continuous service in dry air is 450 degrees F (232 degrees C). Silicone's retention of properties at these high temperatures is superior to other elastic materials, Silicone compounds are not normally recommended for dynamic sealing applications due to relatively low strength and high coefficient of friction. Many silicone compounds have a higher than normal mold shrinkage that results in finished parts being under mold shrinkage when produced in standard molds.
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I do remember that there was one type of O ring material that when heated above a certain temperature turned into a sticky mess that was a strong acid (Hydrofluoric?). I have been trying to find the information on it but no luck.
My luck has changed "Hydrofluoric acid is a known hazard in car engine fires, forming when Viton o-rings and hoses are exposed to temperatures in excess of 400°C."
During normal use we should never reach 400°C, but if you do and it turns sticky DON'T TOUCH IT. http://www.search.com/reference/Hydrofluoric_acid
Checking on some O ring site I found that Viton is NOT recommended for Hot Water and Steam. They recommend EPDM for steam, but not for Petroleum oils and fuels http://www.marcorubber.com/materialguide.htm
Regards,
Gerald.
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That's very interesting gerald, thanks. I wonder if perhaps we are both right- it might not be classsed as suitable for steam as anything above 300psi would be too hot and if it's superheated at any pressure it would become sticky too.
However, that wouldn't explain why it's not suitable for hot water.
I know the name 'Viton' from reading steam catalogues and they reccomended them- can't remember which cat' it was, and as the little man is asleep on me and they're all packed up I can't find out!
Did your site say which materials were best suited?
Greg
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Hi, Chaps,
I may be able to throw a little light on the rubbers issue
Viton is the common fluoroelastomer, and is pretty resistant to everything (except steam and HP water) Can't remember why, but it probably hydrolyses.
Above about 410 degC it dissociates to liberate free fluorine, which then diissolves in any available water to give Hydrofluoric acid (HF). THIS IS AN EXTREMEMLY DANGEROUS SUBSTANCE - IT DISSOLVES FOR EXAMPLE, GLASS AND HUMANS!
The general elastomer for steam and Hot water is EPDM which will handle about 180 deg C forever and higher temperatures for shorter times. It is not bothered by light or ozone (it has very little resistance to oils and greases)
Silicone is pretty good as well, and has even better temperature resistance, and is slightly better with the oils, etc
hope this helps
andrew
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Hi, Chaps,
I may be able to throw a little light on the rubbers issue
Viton is the common fluoroelastomer, and is pretty resistant to everything (except steam and HP water) Can't remember why, but it probably hydrolyses.
Above about 410 degC it dissociates to liberate free fluorine, which then diissolves in any available water to give Hydrofluoric acid (HF). THIS IS AN EXTREMEMLY DANGEROUS SUBSTANCE - IT DISSOLVES FOR EXAMPLE, GLASS AND HUMANS!
The general elastomer for steam and Hot water is EPDM which will handle about 180 deg C forever and higher temperatures for shorter times. It is not bothered by light or ozone (it has very little resistance to oils and greases)
Silicone is pretty good as well, and has even better temperature resistance, and is slightly better with the oils, etc
hope this helps
andrew
what is the problem with Viton and WD40 does it damage it
thanks
Peter
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Hi, Chaps,
...
The general elastomer for steam and Hot water is EPDM which will handle about 180 deg C forever and higher temperatures for shorter times. It is not bothered by light or ozone (it has very little resistance to oils and greases)
...
andrew
Would that be like in a steam engine cylinder? %)
Greg
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Some good info in this page but for the purist click on material comparison chart, punch in your requirements & all will be revealed....
http://www.mcmaster.com/#o-rings/=6mu6xb (http://www.mcmaster.com/#o-rings/=6mu6xb)
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what is the problem with Viton and WD40 does it damage it
thanks
Peter
viton is good with hydrocarbons, but not high temp water.
EPDM as stated is preffered for hot water.
Siliicon (red silicon) is ok with water, but can tend to crumble when exposed to high temps continuously.
Unless you want to start getting into exotic materials
The main boiler feed pumps at sizewell somehow got supplied with Red Silicon in them and that would fall apart in less than a month. we switched to EPDM and problem went away. Pity we never went through the approvals :D
But EPDM is not very tolerant to oils, and can swell up if handled with oily hands
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Replying to the original question: I am building up a TVR1A at the moment and have the same problem, with screws / bushings binding. I tried reaming the bushing out a very small amount, to allow the screw more clearance, but it appears the bushings are designed to move within the linkage arms. I have used loctite on a few suspect screws and this seems to have solved the problem for now, but I'll know better when I start to run the engine, which neatly leads to my problem:
Where can I get a couple of 0-80 x 3/16 pan head screws?
I am one short in my kit (no, it's not lost on the floor) and a quick 'tinternet' search has come up with nothing in the UK. There must be a supplier somewhere, anybody got any ideas?
Neil
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Have you tried EKP Supplies or Model Making Supplies?
Greg
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No, but I'll give them both a try.
Thanks Greg.
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Hi Neil, the thread is back where it started. :-))
Sorry can't help with suppliers in the UK!
Have you tried Mr R.A.Graham??? {-)
If you can get a reply, please let me know how. One of my cylinders has been bored\threaded off centre, causing fairly major leakages, and this is only on 10psi air!
At the moment I own a pretty, expensive paper weight!
Thanks Mick
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Mick, I was going to buy the kit direct from Mr Graham, so I sent him an e-mail on December 18th. I later thought that maybe that was a bit close to Christmas, so I sent it again in January.
I bought the engine from Miskin models in February, and I still have had no reply to my original enquiries.
As your engine is not working, would you mind just taking a couple of the 0-80 x 3/16 pan head screws out and sending them to.......... :}
I hope you get it sorted soon.
Neil
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I bought the extra brass hex kit, so I do have a few spare bits. I thought I'd lost one of the hex's , maybe I was short supplied!
Mick
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Neil' if you do not have any luck send me a P M with your address. I bought three engines from Robert Graham last year and after my friend lost a screw while assembling his engine Robert sent me a bag full of assorted screws and nuts as spares. At that time the communication was really good. Later I bought another engine and it went missing in the post but eventually when it did not turn up he replaced it which was very fair. Unfortunately since then the communications seem to have gone down hill and I too have sent emails that never got replied too. Regards, Ian.
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That's a very kind offer, thanks Ian.
There is a model engineering show this weekend and my Father in Law is planning a visit. I have asked him to keep his eyes open.
Neil
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Hi all, :-))
This morning I recieved 2 replys from Robert Graham, one dating back a month ago. Maybe he was on holiday or something.
Mick
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Hi all, :-))
This morning I recieved 2 replys from Robert Graham, one dating back a month ago. Maybe he was on holiday or something.
Mick
Yes I've just received a response from Robert to an email from a few weeks ago and an immediate helpful response to my follow-up question this evening.
He's there and on the ball ATM
Cheers
Guy
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I ordered two engines from Mr Graham, account cleared & I waited. For weeks I waited & no ( zero/zilch/nada) response..... I then cancelled the order they were shipped out the next day... You go figure...
EDIT: Just read the prior post, looks like Mr Graham has improved his customer support....About time
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If you read his "About Us" page ( http://www.grahamind.com/aboutus.html ) you will see that making the engines is a home based side line to a full time job and that he has been doing it since 1991. I suspect that all the talk on forums such as this about what good value for money the engines are has created a demand that far exceeds his usual sales and also probably that regular work sometimes gets in the way of model making. If it were not for many similar small one man businesses such as this lots of us would stuggle to get the parts we need at a reasonable cost, especially in the steam engine field so would you all please just keep quiet for a couple of months while the poor man catches up and I get my stuff, then you can start posting again. Thank you {-) :} :-) Ian V.
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I am sorry some of you have had trouble with Graham products. I've personally bought 5 of his kits and have been satisfied. Mine went together with few problems, ran good, and are a good value for the money.
Now an editorial comment: Anyone in the hobby business knows it is darn hard to make money at it. Almost every home-based vendor I've ever talked to has said that they are in it for the fun, mostly. They like the idea that they are providing something to the hobby that is unique, or is needed. They hope to gain respect among their hobby peers.
Now, just because you sent some one some money, does that give you the right to deal with him rudely? If you want to drive a home-based guy out of business, then sarcastic comments about him will certainly reduce his fun. In fact, it's dirty comments by customers that probably remove more service-oriented folks from this business than any other factor, including bad checks. So, if you want fewer vendors out there, then, by all means, employ the famous British sarcasm.
Now, I've lost money to home vendors who were crooks. So I know that not everyone out there is a nice guy. And crooks deserve all the bad-mouthing we can heap on them. I've also received goods that did not meet my expectations. With the exception of the crooks, all the other vendors went out of their way to make me happy, either by refunds, or new merchandise, or whatever it took.
Before jumping on a vendor, please give the guy the same breaks you'd give a friend in your club. Life happens, not everything goes as planned. Sometimes a sole operator can't give you the service you'd expect from a big corporation. If there's a slip-up, then maybe it's not intentional, and maybe you will need to employ more patience than you expected. I have dealt with vendors who prefer email to telephone, and some the reverse. If you can't get a guy with your communication vehicle of choice, then try the other means at your disposal. One guy over here, brilliant machinist and innovator, lists an email address for his home business, but, it turns out, he hardly ever responds - he's a guy who'll talk your ear off on the phone, but email...forget it :-). As an email guy myself, I ran myself ragged until I found out his preference.
Your disappointment is real, your frustration is real. If all you can do for yourself to get relief is to scrag the guy on a forum, then so be it. Please understand, though, that you are not doing the hobby a service, and we will all be poorer for your actions. Not only is the specific vendor removed, but potential vendors look at the verbiage, and think "man, why would I want to let myself in for that experience?"
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... Hi......... Graham...do a first class service....i 5 off his machines,,,,,,,bot all whas ready made with hex bolt.....after some month..one get a problem...i send it back ...and i get it back fast,,,and it have be runing like a rolex after,,,,,,
what ever have have ordred from Graham i have get it..bolt and orings....so fore me it have Be OK :-))
Regards Bernhard
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I think people are staring to get a little defensive here.
I have had no dealings with Mr Graham, I sent him an e-mail, twice, as I'm not inclined to make International phone calls in the hope of finding the person at home, and got no reply, so I placed my order with one of the UK importers.
The engine has gone together well, it is just unfortunate that I have either misplaced or was never supplied with one tiny little screw that unfortunately turns out to be just about unobtainable in the UK. I have not attempted to contact Mr Graham again, as a generous forum member has offered me a solution.
I haven't made any sarcastic comments about Mr Graham, or the quality of his work and as someone who used to operate a 'paying hobby' type business from home, while holding down a full time job, I fully understand the pressure he is under, I also recognise that the TVR1A has recently become a very popular product over here, so demand for both kits and information has quite probably outstripped the spare time Mr Graham has available. However, if you have a web site and supply goods / service based on the products on that web site, I don't think it is unreasonable for customers and potential customers to expect a timely reply to any enquiry, even if it is an automatic 'out of office' type reply, saying that 'due to current demand...etc'.
It seems that Mr Graham is catching up with e-mails, which is good for us, but as paying customers we have a perfect right to express our views (provided they are not libellous) and that is all that anyone here has done.
Neil
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Hi all,
Going back to my last post, maybe I should add that I'm very happy with Robert's response. Now I just have to wait for the postal system to do it's thing. Hope that the dramas in Europe dont't slow things down.
Mick
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Sincere apologies if I have offended anyone. They look to be fine little engines & with the improved customer support I'm sure they will have a bright future...
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Just to finish off this thread,
Im HAPPPY!!!
:-) :-) :-) :-)
I recieved my new cylinder the other day (10days from the USA is about normal), rebuilt the motor, and it goes perfectly so far. No unscrewing bolts, a small leak from the o ring on top of the valve chest, which may go away as the o ring beds in. It actually runs (A bit rough ) on the first notch up or down from center,
Now to organise a boiler, oiler etc etc and a boat to put it into!
Mick
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Sorry Mick......but static o-rings do not bed in >>:-( ...if you are experiencing a steam bypass from a valve chest cover ......the leakage even @ 150 degrees C & @ 2 bar will progressively increase ......simply by the o-ring being erroded under pressure...& hence to atmosphere
There is only one fix.......replace it....but also check for any sharp edges between mating components that may have caused the initial pinching <*< of the o-ring
Many blame an o-ring as a poor class of static seal, however if installed in correctly dimensioned & machined o-ring cavities ....the o-ring of the appropriate material for the conditions will be perfect :-)) ....Derek
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Thanks Derek
Guess I'll have to go down to the local engineering supply shop in Brookvale and get some viton o rings. :(( Might as well replace all 4 of them. :-))
Mick
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Mick.....just confirm the o-ring size....ID x diameter section here on Mayhem as others may need the dimensions .......
Then just send a PM with your postal address & I will post 1/2 a dozen Viton o-rings of the correct dimension......... Derek :-))
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This is very kind of you Derek
The size (out of the Assembly Instruction Booklet) are 1/16" x 3/16" , which equals AS568-003
Mick.
ps the motor is still chugging away on the kitchen bench
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I just thought I'd add that thanks to the kindness of Kiwimodeller, mine it tick tocking away on air.
At 15 psi it really goes, goodness only knows what 35 psi of steam will produce :}
Neil
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Neil, I totally agree!!!!!
Maybe Mayhem
Mick
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I ran my 3" Ritalea river launch today with the Graham Ind single cylinder engine it. I have been playing with props, gas jets etc to get it going to its best potential. I keep increasing the prop size and blade area and it just loves it, today I thought it was going to get up and plane if I had not throttled it back! This was on 30psi so I turned the gas down and it ran well all day on 15 to 20psi. After seeing how well the single goes I dont know if I will bother with the twin, might just get another single and run it with a reversable prop so the engine is always running forward. Cheers, Ian
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:-)Don't know if I have it right but thought that the little clamp on top of the steam chest actually compressed the "0" ring and hence seal the slide valve rod.
John
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Hello Gents,
I am assembling the TVR1A and ran into the binding linkage problem with the bushings filed flush. I was inquiring and got directed to this thread.
Is the overall opinion that we must simply use Loctite and hope for the best?
I was thinking that replacing the filed bushings with another set of un-worked bushings could solve the issue as the extended portion would allow the screw to seat and be tight, whilst the linkage pivoted on the bushing.
-Tom
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Hi Tom,
I'm using Loctite. ;)
Just a Small amount (Use a toothpick) on the various screws.
This also makes it easier for you to undo them later on. {:-{
Mick
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Going back to post #5, the bush should not pivot inside the Alluminininium linkage. Technically, the screw should have a plain part that the bush pivots on.
Regards Ian.
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Mr. Graham answered my e-mail overnight, and this is what he said:
There is usually a little bit of binding initially. What I usually do is snug the bushing slightly, put a drop of oil in between the parts that are moving so that the oil runs into the sliding surfaces and then rotate the part in the direction that keeps the screw tight. I do this a couple of times and it usually works out.
I performed this operation tonight and it worked a treat, a real treat! Two or three revolutions and the links freed up completely. O0
Cheers,
-Tom
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So simple! O0 :-))
Mick
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Gentlemen, I have all of the engines that they produce and had only one that gave me trouble and Mr Graham made good on the replacement parts. :-) By the way this happend 6 months after I received the engine.
Terry :-))
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I have finished the build of my TVR1A. :-)
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That example is absolutely AWSOME! %%
Mick
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:-)) :-)) :-)) :- ------Great. ,,Tom you did a First class build...........what boiler will you use to it,,,
Regards Bernhard
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Thanks fella's! :embarrassed:
Bernhard, I am going to build my own boiler. O0
(http://s4.postimage.org/21ypp3sh0/res165.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/21ypp3sh0/)
(http://s4.postimage.org/21ywb96g4/res163.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/21ywb96g4/)
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Definitely makes one want to buy one