Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Steam => Topic started by: Aussie Bruce on January 13, 2007, 02:37:35 am
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Well Guys here goes after some two years of work a borderer 5/8 by 5/8 twin i have built the piston ported version a la Marcher
It absolutely purrs at 5 psi and handles reversing brilliantly
to go reversing valve , boiler feed pump and boiler. boat is half waydone now its a small Melbourne harbour tug from the turn of the century 60 ft basically 1 tenth scale so about 6 foot
Boiler is drawn out its 6" x 10 " 8"internal return flue style with water tubes when the drawings are done i will publish with here
Apologies to the moderator if these photos are to big please resize as required
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Very nice .. Peter
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Absolutely beautiful, just a shame you are not going to see it in the boat.
I'm looking forward to seeing the rest of the plant go together though.
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Nice one, I'll show you mine sometime.
What heating surface area will your boiler have?
Regards,
Keith
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hi very nice what sort of rpm will this turn ? min and max ?
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Nice one, I'll show you mine sometime.
What heating surface area will your boiler have?
Regards,
Keith
Hi Keith after discussion / correspondence with Mr Malcolm Beak via the model boats forum it will be a Centre fired 4" dia OD with a 1-1/2 centre flue with 19 3/8 flues it will have a baffled zone for a water level probe as i would like to have electronic water level control. From my calcs and Malcolm's it is around the 137 to 142 sq in of heating surface. My local club is quite strict about the pressure that we run our steamers at it is recommended that we do not go over 35 psi (insurance etc) ;) ;) ;)
I have Started it The Boiler shell is complete and the end plates as well as the bushes but i am awaiting the arrival of pay day to purchase the required amount of 3/8 tubes boy has the price of copper spiraled :o :o :o
The burner will be a poker style with a commercial disposable 80/20 butane LPG mix.
The only complication is that all items including fittings are scratch built I only buy what i need to in the way of fasteners or raw materials only. so time is not a priority :) :)
Good Luck
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hi very nice what sort of rpm will this turn ? min and max ?
Hi Mate
After tunning the piston Valves as it has minimal Lap and Lead it starts now on compressed air at 2 or 3 psi about 100 to 150 rpm ( regulator for my airbrush) and at 100 psi Well i haven't had the taco on it yet but it would have to turn at least 2200 rpm maybe even 2750 but thats not what its about on steam you keep winding on the pitch on the prop because even on air try and stop it at 100 psi i have burnt fingers before trying to prove it its all about th torque of the engine.
By the way if i was to do it again i would like to up the crank throw to say 3/4 and a 5/8 (19/ 20mm x 16mm)and stroke.
But it is nice to see it sitting on the bench spinning around doing nothing yet :D :D :D
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Hi Bruce .one of the problems of going big is that the amount of steam required to run it ,followed by the amount of water you then have to carry to keep it , I think that may be why Stuart double 10s need such a big boat , my engine is prob the same as yours now and you still need an efficient boiler,, Peter
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Thanks for the response Bruce. I must say I am surprised at the low boiler pressures your club seem to expect. Perhaps they have not heard that the atmospheric engine has been dropped in favour of high pressure steam.
I have yet to install my Borderer steam plant as the 1/19 scale TID it is destined for is developing slowly. My engine is 5/8" stroke by 1/2" bore coupled to an own design centre flue boiler, 4" o/d with a 2 1/4" flue fitted with 22 3/8" cross tubes and fired by a 2" ceramic burner. Heating area is about 100 sq ins and the design working pressure is 100psi. I have also fitted a mechanical boiler feed pump, displacement lubricator and a Cheddar ABC unit. Some testing has been carried out but it will get serious when the weather improves.
Keep the information coming - it gives me some confidence in what I am doing.
Regards,
Keith
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Hi Bruce .one of the problems of going big is that the amount of steam required to run it ,followed by the amount of water you then have to carry to keep it , I think that may be why Stuart double 10s need such a big boat , my engine is prob the same as yours now and you still need an efficient boiler,, Peter
Yep got it in one mate re boiler size i forgot to mention that this will be 6 inch long effective firing area 8 inch including front and rear flue air space talking it over with others in my club a yarrow would be nice or even a single drum / twin drum with a heap of radiant tubes its got a name just not sure of it at the moment. well when its finished we will have to try it if it doesn't work well then on to the shelf with it (boiler i mean) :-[
Yep its a bit of a tradition here in Australia you build a steam boat and it has to be 5 foot long minimum with a beam of 12inches :D :D :D :D
We Build em big so to say
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Thanks for the response Bruce. I must say I am surprised at the low boiler pressures your club seem to expect. Perhaps they have not heard that the atmospheric engine has been dropped in favour of high pressure steam.
I have yet to install my Borderer steam plant as the 1/19 scale TID it is destined for is developing slowly. My engine is 5/8" stroke by 1/2" bore coupled to an own design centre flue boiler, 4" o/d with a 2 1/4" flue fitted with 22 3/8" cross tubes and fired by a 2" ceramic burner. Heating area is about 100 sq ins and the design working pressure is 100psi. I have also fitted a mechanical boiler feed pump, displacement lubricator and a Cheddar ABC unit. Some testing has been carried out but it will get serious when the weather improves.
Keep the information coming - it gives me some confidence in what I am doing.
Regards,
Keith
Ohhh yeah but of course the trade off is of course insurance cover and lets just say the ability to not quite meet the requirements for our miniature boiler code it is a standard and can get a bit pernickety at times but really having a 35 psi requirement is not to bad and has plenty to recommend it.
From my experience any way if the pressure settles around 20 psi to 30 psi you've got the makings of a twenty minute run to play with any way and no need to drive the burner hard if it all balances out speed Scale etc enough pressure to give a bit of a kick to top speed why do you need 90 psi any way, although with ABC you don't have to worry about it.
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aussie bruce, would you like a set of boiler feed pump plans that will fit on the rear of that fantastic engine? the feed pump is run directly off the rear of the crank, if you want them let me know your email address.
billj
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Hi Bill
Thank you very much for your kind offer but i am up to my ears into making it at the moment.
I am fortunate to belong to the Melbourne society of model and experimental engineers where we have a great library going back to the first edition of the model engineer I am building my borderer to the word's and music from 1st of December 1989 to 7th of December 1990 of the model engineer and it incorporates the plans and instructions for the boiler feed pump.
I have completed the piston reversing valve and had to rework my pipe work some what but hey thats what its all about. so stay tuned i will throw up some photos soon
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Hi Bruce
I see you have made a grand job of the Borderer, and look forward to seeing the boiler etc.
It's been a while since we were in contact, and you said that you were going to get some articles I sent you on your club web site. If this hasn't happened yet, don't bother - they are now on the Puddleducks site under Downloads.
All the best Malcolm
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Hi Bruce
I see you have made a grand job of the Borderer, and look forward to seeing the boiler etc.
It's been a while since we were in contact, and you said that you were going to get some articles I sent you on your club web site. If this hasn't happened yet, don't bother - they are now on the Puddleducks site under Downloads.
All the best Malcolm
Can you post a link for this website please
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http://www.paddleducks.co.uk
Barrie
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Hi Bruce
I see you have made a grand job of the Borderer, and look forward to seeing the boiler etc.
It's been a while since we were in contact, and you said that you were going to get some articles I sent you on your club web site. If this hasn't happened yet, don't bother - they are now on the Puddleducks site under Downloads.
All the best Malcolm
Hi Malcolm great to hear from you, hmm all i will say is that I am a little bit disapointed over that fiasco apologies
Moving right along yep some more pictures of engine now fitted with reversing valve just need some cotton string to lag the pipes
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hi it looks very nice can i ask what lathe you have?
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hi it looks very nice can i ask what lathe you have?
Hi Mate yep I have seen your post re no name lathes and some of the replies on your possible choice of lathe but I come from a different background, country etc so I have not commented on that post. It is hard to know where to stop. ???
In Australia for the last 20 years or so people do not bother at all with Myford Harrison or Boxford, lathes although some of our older generation still do, not to say they are not great quality etc but based on price alone you cannot beat the Chinese manufacturers. Our usual dealers are Hare and Forbes etc and all import lathes and tools from China. :'(
The Size of our general modelling lathes is typically a bit bigger then what I see in model engineer etc the best bang for buck lathe here in Australia is say 300 mm Dia x 1000 mm bed (Min 150 radius swing over the saddle these lathes can retail for about $2500 to $2800) so I would say 25% bigger machine than the Chester DB11V.
That’s not to say you cannot buy any option / colour / brand of small mini lathe here locally from what I see they are the same as what is available in the UK.
Based on what my friends own of the 6 or so 5 own the 300 x 1000 size machines either belt drive headstock, or geared head variety. Only one owns a Myford and uses mine from time to time when we work on motorcycle projects as you cannot get much at all through the headstock and not much swing and low power. :-X
Please note I am a fitter and turner by trade although I now work in a technical position and have other interests such as motorcycles and do some cash jobs from time to time so my machine is used almost daily at least when I am not using the mill
I could go on but the bottom line is if you buy a small lathe, small jobs are all it will do. My advice would be to pick up a second hand larger machine if that is what you want to do.
Good Luck mate and get plenty of cash together to start to buy some tooling because that is where the real money is spent
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Bruce Sorry to go of topic but do you know if John Drain http://www.pt-boat.com/ is still trading ive e-mailed him a few times but with no luck , thanks peter
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Well after what seems a while I have got the bug well and truly so to speak and have had to change the title of this post to steam plant ::)
Its nearly done only strip down and paint up but I havent decided one way or the other yet
But here it is now withwater feed pump and lubricator
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I think this would look stunning if it was polished rather than painted. It looks pretty good as it is though!!
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Hi Bruce,
Looks very nice, just polish it, I think painting covers up all your hard work.
Just a couple of questions.
Did you make the gears and splined takeoff yourself?
I have never seen a displacement lubricator hanging off the side, I thought they are inline, how does your one work?
Again, great engine.
John
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Hi Bruce,
Looks very nice, just polish it, I think painting covers up all your hard work.
Just a couple of questions.
Did you make the gears and splined takeoff yourself?
I have never seen a displacement lubricator hanging off the side, I thought they are inline, how does your one work?
Again, great engine.
John
Hi John well i have to come clean i bought the gears from our local small gear specialist in Melbourne they where not to expensive at all about $25 dollars finer pitch than what is called up but i just got the right ratio in the end they run really well
I could have machined them up if i wanted to as i have a mill and dividing head etc, I have a RF30 Drill Mill (Big) and a small Horizontal Mill its like a big model really but its ideal for this small stuff, It was given to me but i still need an arbour for it though but for $25 i couldn't go past those gears it was going to cost me that for the arbour material alone.
Yep I know its usual to run lubricators in line with the main steam line etc but its not really required to at all in my experience as you can see i tee mine off close to the control valve it also gives me the option of adding a valve at the opposite end to get rid of any condensation at that point but really you need it as thats what gets the oil flowing anyway
besides i can get easy access to the drain valve to empty it where its located now
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This is a picture of a Martin Howes and Baylis engine where they mount the lubricator hanging off the side of the steam chest's
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When I think about it, there is no need to have it in line, it makes a much neater installation. I will try it on my next project.
Bruce I think we both have the same type of monster mill, pain in the a*** when you have to raise or lower the column because because it loses register, but a real workhorse. I have used mine almost every day and it has never let me down, it is 23 years old now and in need of a good refurb.
John
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This is a picture of a Martin Howes and Baylis engine where they mount the lubricator hanging off the side of the steam chest's
That is so neat and what a lovely compact set up is it yours ????
It is pictures like that that give us all ideas can you tell me is the exhaust manifold dual skinned to act as a feed water heater ??? because if it is that is the neatest set up i have ever seen 8) 8) 8) 8)
Thats the thing about model boats unless we get some close ups of the areas you miss so much. I havent seen a photo of that in MB or MMI at all.
We do miss out alot in Australia in conventions etc and trade support so the thing is make it your self.
I will next week put a post up re a scratch built IMARA hull and body fitted with twin double acting engines and electronic water pump and butane fired via disposable camper bbq bottles built by a fellow club member it is a work of art and will spin in its own length he is away at the moment so have to wait till next week.
Thanks for that photo HS93
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When I think about it, there is no need to have it in line, it makes a much neater installation. I will try it on my next project.
Bruce I think we both have the same type of monster mill, pain in the a*** when you have to raise or lower the column because because it loses register, but a real workhorse. I have used mine almost every day and it has never let me down, it is 23 years old now and in need of a good refurb.
John
Hi John Dead right about that Drill Mill mine is 13 years old now and pound for pound i don't think it could be beat. If i ever buy one again though it would be R8 not MT3 its easier to get stuff into and out of the Quill
I picked up some reduced shank Drills of set length basically from 1/2 - 3" more importantly they are all the same length about 100 mm long so it gets around the need to re set the head height but like any machine i tend to plan out the steps and set the head height accordingly.
One trick is i put a disc brake off a ford falcon on the top pulley on the quill smoooooth as now running slot drills and flycutters in interupted cut situations have you done this mod yet ? adds some much needed mass to quill
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No its not mine, I do have a single and am after a twin, they also did a triple its modular, they stooped making them all about five years ago. I have a kit of theres and a couple of boilers, that will be started soon. they started to use cheddar engines and now use Anton.
I am not shore about the manifold I will have a look I have some info But its in my workshop somewhere Ill post as soon as I can , there are a lot of em about so someone may post some pictures.the picture I posted was one for sale on flea-bay a couple of months ago.this a picture of the other side. ill also post a picture of Cheddars Proteus I have the same setup as this , but it req quite a large boat and that makes it a bit difficult because of the weight
http://fabrice.bretagne.club.fr/Index.htm
http://www.model-steam-boats.co.uk/
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A few pictures of My min-vap setup I'm using a kitchen rudder , the hull is 21"" or about 535mm so only small , It needs a good clean but I will wait until Ive stooped getting it messy in the workshop Its a mhb and a cheddar boiler and auto gas valve.
Peter