Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: Martin (Admin) on March 11, 2011, 11:20:17 am
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The pictures coming out of Japan are terrifying!!!! :((
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12709854
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12709856
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12709850
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terrible!! cant imagine anything like this! just unbelievable the power of nature.
watched with shock and horror this afternoon.
my thoughts go out to the people, but how words cant convey your sorrow im truly speechless.
Dave
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Not much more I can add, a really terrifying time for those involved. Seeing that large building go gave you an idea of the power of water. I imagine the loss of life will be high.
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Although it might seem odd to some but I had completeley forgotten that My Cousin is living in Japan and has been on/off for over 20 years, just heard that he is fine but is in an Emergency Centre , where he is , is a fair way from the areas affected by the tidle wave but their apartment on the 11th floor has developed a large crack in it and they are unable to return to it at the moment, Luck really when you see the devestation caused elsewhere.
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Dear All,
The magnitude of this event is extreme, the results obviously catastrophic - partic. considering the fifty aftershocks that occurred in swift succession.
The Pacific Rim moves on a regular basis, but not quite to this frequency... after the NZ event - and others less significant elsewhere - something is happening 'down the line', and, after quite a 'subdued period' line pressure/stress is bound to release at some time - and it has with a vengeance.
Once things move to this extent, other areas could very well remove stress in sympathy... give it apx. six months and there will be another very significant event somewhere - within 500 to 1000 miles - once stress relieved in one place, it automatically/theoretically places same onto another.
I hope I am wrong.
Regards, Bernard
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Photos: http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/03/earthquake-in-japan/100022/ (http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/03/earthquake-in-japan/100022/)
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BBC Have just announced there has been what they describe as a "huge explosion at one of the Nuclear power stations and are confirming there has been a radiation leak.
So it sounds as if there is worse to come for the people of that area.
Geoff
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Just watched that on the news. Looks like the top of the main containment vessel went , you can clearly see the blast wave in the air ( same thing you see if you see film of a bomb going off ) and there's only the bare shell ( the metal interior supports ) left , guess the pressure vessel hasn't gone totally ( the bottom is usually twice as thick as the top , always better for an airborne release than a melt down through the base ) but does look very bad.
They said it happened during an aftershock , some of which were bigger than the Christchurch earthquake of 2 weeks ago..
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Dear All,
Things are very serious in numerous directions.
Please see the BGS website if you want further data (British Geological Survey).
Regards, Bernard
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Just watched that on the news. Looks like the top of the main containment vessel went , you can clearly see the blast wave in the air ( same thing you see if you see film of a bomb going off ) and there's only the bare shell ( the metal interior supports ) left , guess the pressure vessel hasn't gone totally ( the bottom is usually twice as thick as the top , always better for an airborne release than a melt down through the base ) but does look very bad.
Looks like the containment building went, NOT the pressure vessel. As the coolant went, the reaction in the pressure vessel would have generated hydrogen and steam, which would have been vented into the containment building. This is probably what blew up. The authorities are reporting that the pressure vessel is sound, and, if they can keep it cool, it will not melt and can be stabilised.
So long as the pressure vessel stays intact, any radioactive release is likely to be minor. Mind you, they probably won't be using that pressure vessel again. Of course, the big death toll will be from the tidal wave...
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I'm impressed DG, expert in nuclear power stations as well. :-))
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Dear Dodgygeezer,
What makes me 'slightly cross', is that all this should have been incident proofed when the things were built. If you are building such a thing and know potential risk, it should be built on a very substantial concrete raft - if in doubt, you make it even deeper. Over engineering pays sometimes. However...
It will all get sorted.
Regards, Bernard
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Dear Dicky,
I agree, though maybe it is with marine - very much more complicated. If so, little further will I am sure be said.
Regards, Bernard
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I'm impressed DG, expert in nuclear power stations as well. :-))
I have specifically worked on nuclear power safety and control systems with British Energy. But all I am commenting on now is what anyone should be able to pick up...
What makes me 'slightly cross', is that all this should have been incident proofed when the things were built. If you are building such a thing and know potential risk, it should be built on a very substantial concrete raft...
Um... plant was built in 1971. And it probably does have decent foundations. The issue appears to be the level of waste in the reactor.
Light Water reactors use water as a moderator. It slows down the neutrons so they can react with the fuel. If you pull the plug out of a light water reactor and let all the water out it should just stop and cool down. However, the reactions generate secondary radioactive waste by-products, and these will keep generating heat even if the main reaction is switched off. So the engineers will need to get some water passing through the reactor to keep it safe....
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Hi,
Does anyone know how the hydrogen is generated to cause the explosion - is it the steam acting on red hot iron reaction or is it something specific with nuclear reactors?
Ian.
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Hi,
Does anyone know how the hydrogen is generated to cause the explosion - is it the steam acting on red hot iron reaction or is it something specific with nuclear reactors?
The zirconium cladding covering the fuel rods oxidises in the steam, evolving hydrogen. Incidentally, I understand that the secondary waste products which are still evolving heat should degrade in 24 hours or so, so things will become stable and safer at that point.....
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It's very sad to see the huge loss of life and devastation mother nature can cause. We all underestimate the power of nature when it's unleashed. I fear the toll in this tragedy will be enormous. I hope we can all spare a thought for those involved and we realise just how lucky we are. Dave. :((
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Dear DodgyGeezer,
Your Mayhem name comes nowhere to match your obvious expertise. I bow out of this very rapidly.
Dave, as you intimate, sadly much more yet. Me done in this matter... lost for words actually.
Regards, Bernard
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It's very sad to see the huge loss of life and devastation mother nature can cause. We all underestimate the power of nature when it's unleashed. I fear the toll in this tragedy will be enormous. I hope we can all spare a thought for those involved and we realise just how lucky we are. Dave. :((
I think the problem is that we foolishly think our combined efforts can control "Mother Nature", when in all actuality, all we can hope to do is muddle through our brief existence until we meet our inevitable demise ... {:-{
In the mean time, enjoy the ride and KEEP MODELING!! :-))
;D ;D ;D
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This is a little chilling to watch as the ground cracks and turns to liquid behaving almost like waves on a beach {:-{
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkHxDZGSM7E
Unfortunately I don't think this is the only disaster that will evolve over the next couple of weeks, I hope I'm wrong.
HawkEye
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I think they call it liquifaction - I think the same thing happend in Christchurch
Frightening isn't it.
Geoff
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It seems we've all moved a little bit due to the Earth shifting on it's axis, while the island of Japan has shifted 8 feet (in old money) or 2.4 Meters (for the younger ones) :o
"The powerful earthquake that unleashed a devastating tsunami Friday appears to have moved the main island of Japan by 8 feet (2.4 meters)".
"Reports from the National Institute of Geophysics and Volcanology in Italy estimated the 8.9-magnitude quake shifted the planet on its axis by nearly 4 inches (10 centimeters)".
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/12/japan.earthquake.tsunami.earth/index.html?hpt=T2
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yesterday we had a visit from a couple of mormons nattering on as thay do and one of them said to my wife god is great he will save the world in polite words she told them a bit late for japan good bye did not even leave a leaflet cannot argue with that
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yesterday we had a visit from a couple of mormons nattering on as thay do and one of them said to my wife god is great he will save the world in polite words she told them a bit late for japan good bye did not even leave a leaflet cannot argue with that
Probably one too many Ms in mormon O0
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never thought of that.. if my wife had thought of that she would have said that as well
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If your mormon 'friends' ever come back, ask them to explain about the "Mountain Meadows Massacre" ... >>:-( <*<
Basically, it's where a bunch of mormons dressed up as Indians attacked a group of pioneers in a wagon train going through southern Utah ... and, after they couldn't wipe them out after a few days, another bunch of mormons came in, saying that it was all a BIG misunderstanding, and if they gave up their weapons the "indians" would let them (the "saviors") escort them (the pioneers) out ...
when the pioneers agreed, they were disarmed, escorted out, and promptly massacred by their "good mormon saviors" ... after they were done murdering all the adult males, they murdered all the adult females, then they murdered all the children over the age of eight (if I remember right, according to the mormon cult, at age eight you basically "acquire" a consciousness and can be 'baptized') then they stole everything of value, from the livestock and wagons down to the clothes their victims were wearing ...
Like my Father often told me, "The only "good mormon" is a dead mormon!!" O0 :-))
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watching the news about the earthquake where and how do you start to clean up not to mention rebuilding
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Some screen grabs of today's RSOE earthquake list, their still having some bad shaking over there.
(http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k596/HawkEye77/Rsoe2.jpg)
(http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k596/HawkEye77/Rsoe1.jpg)
(http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k596/HawkEye77/Rsoe3.jpg)
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Like my Father often told me, "The only "good mormon" is a dead mormon!!" O0 :-))
It's not for me to sit in judgement of anyone, but I can't help myself being totally in agreement with your father's words.
Some say that the Mormons were driven to such drastic actions because of their paranoia. Nonsense! They were driven by their own greed, fear of their own shadows, their love of weapons, and ultimately proved themselves to be a bunch of spineless, women-hating control freaks hiding behind their so-called church.
As if all these recent disasters which are currently happening in the world isn't bad enough, try to imagine how those early pioneers must have felt when they witnessed their wives, their husbands, their children and their friends being blatantly murdered by some weird cult.
It's also uncanny to note that the day of the massacre itself tallies with another infamous day in American history -- September 11th.
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In fairness, that was a long time ago. That would be like blaming me for the atrocities of the Boer War, slavery, or anything else that was done in the past.
I stayed and worked with a Mormon family in the USA. Most of the workers were also from the Church of LDS. Other than the fact that they did not drink or smoke or do drugs, they behaved pretty much like anyone else who went to Church in the City They don't tolerate paedophiles either. The teenagers got up to hanky panky, and from all outward appearances no different from anyone else.
Most of the Mormons we will see in UK are on their 'Mission', the others live in the UK and you would never know. They have to do their compulsory 2 year mission, or get excommunicated. They are sent to all corners of the world, do two years, then go home to a normal life. And so what we see knocking on our door is not a Mormon on a normal day, leading their normal life.
The family I stayed with treated me incredibly well, and did not object to my drinking. Perfect hosts. They accepted me for who I was, respected my beliefs and lifestyle, and nobody tried to convert me.
There is a lot of religious dogma in the world, too much, and like most dogma it does not reflect reality.
My 2 cents.
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Also, in all fairness, I or anyone else could punch a zillion holes in your argument. For instance, I too, as I'm sure countless other Brits, have lived and worked with foreign friends, and I too was treated with curtesy and respect. The only difference being that the folk I stayed with were not at all religious in any way -- just normal average folk with a fair sense of politeness and manners. In other words, living proof that one does not need to be a church-going type in order to respect one's fellow human being. Without wishing to sound at all negative or wishing to fall out over this, the example you gave of being treated well by one particular sect is somewhat biased. Understandably so.
Also (quote): "Most of the Mormons we will see in UK are on their 'Mission'" (unquote). Now there is the crux of the matter. Pray tell me, what is 'normal' that any child should be raised to believe that it is their mission to preach to others? Why on God's earth do some folk believe they are superior in the sense that they feel it their duty to preach their beliefs on, let's say, lesser mortals?
That said, I really do admire that your Mormon buddies are raised to be anti-drugs/anti-alcohol/anti-violence and with a semi-sence of resect for others. But (here's the biggie), a documentary on TV some two or three years ago, filming the everyday lives of Mormans in Utah over a period of several months. A bunch of Mormon teens were permitted to leave the confines of their usual lives in order to go out into the big, wide world and to experience life from another perspective. Guess what? 98% of those teens had the good sense to find a job, to avoid the undesirables (drug dealers and the like), and generally live their lives the way which THEY wanted to live - and they each made a success of it. Just 2% of those teens returned to Utah. Just two diddly per-cent. And only because they received letters from their parents threatening that they would be dismissed from their families if they did not return.
Does the words "bullied" or "brainwashed" ring any bells here?
Furthermore, the womanfolk, when interviewed in the aforementiond documentary, secretly admitted that they too longed to be given the chance of experiencing a life other than the usual hum-drum drudgery of sharing their husband with several other women. Basically, they are treated as second-class citizens, brainwashed from an early age that their only role in life is to cater to their husband's every whim.
Does that sound fair to you? One ends up questioning just what sort of people these Mormon 'men' are. Their only aim in life is to make $$$. They are driven by senseless greed, yet all the while they feel that it's perfectly normal to sleep with many wives and to treat those wives as nothing short of skivvies.
You can try to justify it until you are blue in the face, but decent, honest folk will never forget - let alone forgive - the actions of those Mormon murderers on Sept. 11th, 1857, for the very same mentality of greed and nastiness still secretly lurks in the modern-day Mormon.
My 2 cents.
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I'm not justifying it. Just saying don't blame the current generation.
There have been many atrocities in history, all inexcusable. Us brits are not blameless. But I am not responsible for the 'Black Hole of Calcutta".
But we are a long way off topic here.
It started as the Japan Earthquake.
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Agreed.
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...It started as the Japan Earthquake...
...which is not doing well. As HawkEye says, damaging aftershocks are still occurring, and there has been another hydrogen release/explosion - this time from "xxxxx" Daiichi 3. I understand that both of these reactors are very old - FD1 was going to be closed down in a month, so damage to them is not critically important, but it still indicates that they do not have them under complete control yet. And people are getting hurt....
I am surprised at the second explosion - heat and pressure levels should have fallen to less than 10% of operating levels by now, so there should be little need to vent. BraveNewClimate has a very good technical summary on the situation prepared by Dr Josef Oehmen here: http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/13/"xxxxx"-simple-explanation/ , which is well worth reading to understand what is going on.
And this video: http://ow.ly/4dvh0 shows what it's like to be at ground level when the water comes in....
PS - you will all be glad to hear that Martin's nanny package is preventing us from typing F u k u s h i m a ....
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still waiting for an answer to my question how and where do you start to clear up the mess
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At the edge I suppose.
This is going to take years. It may be that many villages are re-located, and nearly all structures will have to be built from scratch.
I would not be surprised if it cost several hundred billion dollars.
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This is going to take years....
The death-toll is going to be tragic, of course, but the property damage (though major) probably looks worse than it is. Most of the buildings seem to be of light wood construction and not strongly attached to the ground (the Japanese must use this technique to earthquake-proof their homes), so they will wash away in a huge mess of debris.
But the debris will be easily collected and disposed of - it is much lighter than the equivalent stone or brick of other countries. And I suspect that this form of housing is quite rapid to replace. Let us hope that the press are employing their usual ill-informed exaggeration, and that the deaths are less high than the appalling figures we are being told ...
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Hi DG
I think a longer period will be required for the infrastructure, which had evolved over time. I think they will need to build new towns from scratch.
It is not hard to put in new roads, drains, sewers, etc. But it takes time.
One of the saddest features is that they will not be rehousing a lot of people, as the population may no longer be there.
The traditional and modern industries that supported these towns and cities grew from a legacy of old fishing villages. Perhaps many of the older ways of life and traditional industries have been literally washed away. And starting new industries may mean it is better (in terms of business efficiency) to relocate. And I am sure many would not want to return to their old home towns, for many and various reasons.
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They are still in the search and rescue phase at present - but this will include some clearance - mainly roads to allow any search teams access.
I beleive they are using helicopters operating from a carrier offshore. It will be far quicker to get teams in when the main roads have been
cleared of debris. The japanese with good reason have a well trained disaster relief organisation and when they can do no more for the living
then it will be collecting the bodies then they will start putting the main infrastucture back together.
Can you imagine what it would be like in this country if the same thing had happened on the east coast. As it is such an unlikely event here
we would be far less organised than they are.
Geoff
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Can you imagine what it would be like in this country if the same thing had happened on the east coast. As it is such an unlikely event here
we would be far less organised than they are.
We had something similar in 1953, and lost 300 souls - more if you count shipwrecks like Princess Victoria. Of course, we now monitor tide heights very closely.
However, there is a another danger which is far less well monitored. That is the danger of submarine mudslides falling off the continental shelf into the abyssal plain. The drop off the Norwegian coast is something like 3,500m, and when a section of the seabed slides down this it pulls down the water above it. When the sea rebounds, you get a tidal wave. This happened off Storegga about 7000 years ago - several thousand cubic kilometers of mud (!) shifted, and caused massive floods across Scotland. There are estimates suggesting that a similar happening would give us 30ft waves along the NE coast. http://www.landforms.eu/shetland/Storegga.html#S1 may be of interest...
Minor slides of this kind happen all the time. But, as far as I know (sorry, DickyD), nobody is monitoring the sea bed (outside of the drilling areas) to determine if another big one is imminent. So it is quite possible that we (and the other North Sea nations) may be faced with a similar catastrophe tomorrow....
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Could be worse, Dodgy Geezer: if (when?) Cumbrae Vieja (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbre_Vieja) on the Canaries slides majestically into the Atlantic - all 500km3 of it - we can say goodbye to the US's eastern seaboard. :o
Andy
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Slide the split bar left & right over the pictures.... :((
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/13/world/asia/satellite-photos-japan-before-and-after-tsunami.html (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/13/world/asia/satellite-photos-japan-before-and-after-tsunami.html)
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HM Government are going to have very hard job selling new Nuclear Power stations to the great British public now...
Especially now the would be terrorist knows exactly how to damage one so as to cause the maximium amount of panic....Just sabotage the power to the cooling system and it's back up generators...Jobs a goodun.. {:-{
I always thought Maggie was too obsessed in destroying the mining unions,to consider whether a cleaner version of Coal Fired Power stations might be desirable in the future... <:(
Now we don't seem to have plan B >:-o
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.. but we do have a Sizewell B. %%
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hi
I think this puts the whole human race in its place - we realise we are just guests on this fragile planet of ours. We are really masters of nothing, even though it says the human race is the most intelligent - they didnt see mother nature coming there did they. Very, very sad and I hope people learn by it.....especially our Government - I hope the UK Government take stock of it all with the complacancy they have about safety! As Pugwash has already stated, if it happened in our Country it wouldnt be the devastation but it would be the devastation of what the Government did that would affect us more. Look at how the few inches of snow played havoc in the UK AND LOOK at the response the Government gave - quick - I think not. They would certainly spend a week to ensure it was safe to do anything.
aye
john
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thanks tigar tigar for answering my question this is the time to let bygones be bygones sorry for the children who have lost parents
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I was involved in the 1953 floods on Canvey Island which claimed 58 lives, the horrendous pictures coming from
Japan has bought back bad memories for me, there will be many survivors mentally scarred as I have been throughout my
Life, my heartfelt wishes go to all concerned
http://www.canveyisland.org/page_id__319_path__0p2p19p.aspx
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HM Government are going to have very hard job selling new Nuclear Power stations to the great British public now...
Especially now the would be terrorist knows exactly how to damage one so as to cause the maximium amount of panic....Just sabotage the power to the cooling system and it's back up generators...Jobs a goodun.. {:-{
I might have thought the opposite.
It's probably worth mentioning that all new nuclear power stations are designed to automatically fail safe if power or any other outside service goes, without user intervention, and are able to be closed down completely with no external services being required at all. But the stations we have at the moment are old, run past their design age, and in some cases considerably more dangerous than the Japanese ones.
If I was really frightened about a power station failure, I would be calling for them all to be replaced with nice new reliable ones...
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As current events sadly show, there is no such thing as "fail safe" when it comes to nuclear matter.
Give a push hard enough and the control mechanisms will fail, even when the push (generally) was expected.
These reactors in Japan were considered earthquake-proof up to a very high amount of "push", and most likely, they have fulfilled that criterion in the past. Unfortunately Mankind is still arrogant enough to ignore the fact that in comparison to Nature's forces we and our best and "safest" efforts are only minuscule and can as easily be swiped away as we swat a fly...
Even if no detonation will occur in the affected power plants (which I sincerely hope and what I pray for!), the leakage alone does contaminate and will for a long time continue to contaminate a vast area of one of the most highly populated nation in the world, killing people instantly as well as slowly and painfully. Safe? Ha!
New technologies (no matter whethere one labels them as "safe" or "safer") can always only withstand those forces that are known at the time of the development of these technologies. So maybe some "genius" will state that new nuclear power plants will have to resist an earthquake of a 9.5-magnitude. Everybody happy, politicians pleased and well-paid by the power companies, plant built regardless of location (because it has reached a new, never-had-before "safety" level), next thing our planet decides is flex its muscles a bit more and - pow! - produce an Earthquake of magnitude 10. Just because it has never been reported, that does not mean it's not coming...
May I just spell "San-Andreas-Fault"? Experts (serious people, not just the ones mixing PR greed with ignorance) inside and outside the U.S. are adamant that a big earthquake down there is overdue - just imagine an earthquake of the current Japan magnitude happening with its epicentre not 100 miles out of the coast but right under the buildings of San Francisco. Safe nuclear power plants?
For me the logical conclusion is: the sooner we can replace the nuclear power plants by different but less hazardous technologies, the better for us. And for our successing generations. Plutonium has a half life of 24,000 years while a human generation is considered to last about 25 years... safe? Half life only means that 960 generations after a power plant meltdown a human being in that area needs to ingest about 100mg (0.00352 fl oz) of Pu to drop dead instead of 50mg right after the incident... yep, safe...
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Even if no detonation will occur in the affected power plants (which I sincerely hope and what I pray for!), the leakage alone does contaminate and will for a long time continue to contaminate a vast area of one of the most highly populated nation in the world, killing people instantly as well as slowly and painfully. Safe? Ha!
Umm...what leakage is that? These reactors have multiple layers of protection. One (the cooling system) has been damaged by the earthquake/wave. The others are still in place, and there is no reason why they should not protect against any leakage.
There has been some venting of short-lived isotopes to lower pressure. Beyond trace amounts of caesium and iodine (which have long since disappeared into the Pacific), this was mainly N-16. N-16 has a half-life of 7 seconds, so it will 'continue to contaminate a vast area of one of the most highly populated nations in the world' for less than a minute. The typical dose from this venting ingested by the local population is about equivalent to 1 month's natural radiation. A quick calculation suggests to me that that is the rough equivalent of eating 200 bananas, or a couple of pounds of Brazil nuts, or a return flight from Europe to the US - anyone with a better maths want to check that out for me...?
For me the logical conclusion is: the sooner we can replace the nuclear power plants by different but less hazardous technologies, the better for us. And for our successing generations. Plutonium has a half life of 24,000 years while a human generation is considered to last about 25 years... safe? Half life only means that 960 generations after a power plant meltdown a human being in that area needs to ingest about 100mg (0.00352 fl oz) of Pu to drop dead instead of 50mg right after the incident... yep, safe...
There is no Plutonium in these reactors. There is, however, quite a lot on the ground around the world as fallout from nuclear bomb testing in the 1950s. In fact, there is more from this source than there would be if all the world's reactors were to blow up simultaneously, and it's in the dust around our feet. And, surprise, surprise, we aren't all dead....
Plutonium can be toxic, but you have to work hard to make it so. I am sure you remember Bernard Cohen's offer to eat as much plutonium as Ralph Nader would eat caffeine in the 1980s? Your guess at Plutonium's LD-50 is odd, and suggests that you don't really appreciate what a half-life is. Here is a reference giving a more complete analysis of plutonium toxicity... http://russp.org/BLC-3.html which you may find of interest.
Why don't you worry about the provably far greater danger of air pollution due to the burning refineries and gas storage plants? Or the far greater emissions of radioactive particles by the worlds coal power stations? Or, indeed, Brazil nuts?...
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Dear All,
Take note of what Doddygeezer says, he clearly knows about this field. Probably won't say where from either!
These plants were getting close to decommissioning, and it is 'unfortunate' that this has occurred at this time. They are pumping sea water through everything because of this. OK, this might should have possibly not have happened, but please bear in mind that this plant was built at a time when things presently was were not thoroughly known. OK, not much of an excuse really... if in doubt over engineer of course - a long term principal of mine, but my involvements don't cost me 100's of M's! Still no excuse, but that was the way 40 or so years ago.
What is going to happen will happen whatever be the case, and there is absolutely nothing whatsoever we can do about it, so we can only hope the engineers in charge will cope with it - and wish them a great deal of luck. I for one am glad I am not within 200 miles of the place.
Regards, Bernard
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As DG points out, there is plenty of radioactivity left over as a result of the atmospheric nuclear tests.In fact I recall reading a while back that it is almost impossible to get or make non radioactive steel for instrumentation purposes now as a result of this and that the remaining uncontaminated sources are the armour plates on the warships sunk before 1945,
Colin
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I see Hawaii got hit by a Tsunami.
It feels strange as we were in Kona 3 weeks ago and know the places affected.
http://www.bigislandvideonews.com/2011/03/13/video-hawaii-county-mayors-kona-tsunami-damage-update/
Bob
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... I for one am glad I am not within 200 miles of the place.
I'm glad I'm not within about 20ft of the pressure vent pipe. If I stayed directly in front of it for an hour while they were venting, I would end up with radiation burns, though I would expect to recover...
if I were about 2000 feet away while they were venting, and the O2/H2 mixture went off, as has happened a few times now, I would expect to get blast damage to my eardrums, and might be unlucky enough to get killed by flying debris. I would have an increased gamma-ray dose, but probably nothing to worry about...
if I were 20 miles away I might be just inside the exclusion zone, and would be unhappy because I would be being moved away from where my home used to be...
if I were 200 miles away I would probably still be in Japan, and so suffering the disruption and privation that much of Japan is suffering at the moment..
So, on the whole, I'm glad to be upwards of 2000 miles away....
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Amongst the blame being levelled at the Japanese, there must be a lot of unsung heroics going on among the engineers who are struggling to contain the situation. I bet they all wish they were 200 miles away as well.
Colin
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...there must be a lot of unsung heroics going on among the engineers who are struggling to contain the situation.
Colin is perfectly correct. While we speak there are engineers trying to vent explosive gases safely in impossible conditions - there have been injuries and at least one death, but they are still on-site. It would be nice to see the BBC recognise this...
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Dear Doddgygeezer,
You are in my opinion the only person qualified to speak on this matter.
During Indonesia, I put my name down as an excav. driver for a certain Mfr. but was sidellined with the response. Seems to have carried though now... since and though I am not licensed to drive anything beyond 10t, but now anything beyond 40t and beyond is absolutely no problem at all... why this? I know....
Sorry to say, that - without standing commitments - and Family commitments - there is nothing on this Planet that would get me within 2000k of the place... sorry and and all that, but that's that.
Regards, Bernard
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From the BBC website:
A small group of workers have been battling around the clock to stave off disaster at "xxxxx" Daiichi. The BBC's Aidan Lewis says: "The few dozen who are left have faced explosions and fires as they rush to pump sea water into overheated reactors. The workers are being rotated in and out, to try to limit their exposure to radiation. They are also assumed to be wearing sophisticated protective clothing.Brave men.
Colin
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You are in my opinion the only person qualified to speak on this matter....
I am not speaking from any inside knowledge of the current situation in Japan - just from publicly available information. And different people may bring different points of view to a conversation, so I don't think that people should be ignored if they are 'not qualified'. Frequently the best contributions are made by people who are approaching a problem from the outside....
One point to make is that, until we know which radionuclides are being emitted, it is not correct to assume that the radiation levels detected at the reactor are the same as those which will impact the countryside. I suspect that they are venting short-lived isotopes at times when the prevailing wind is out to sea. And time is on their side - the longer things go on the cooler the reactors get...
From the BBC website:
A small group of workers have been battling around the clock to stave off disaster at "xxxxx" Daiichi. The BBC's Aidan Lewis says: "The few dozen who are left have faced explosions and fires as they rush to pump sea water into overheated reactors. The workers are being rotated in and out, to try to limit their exposure to radiation. They are also assumed to be wearing sophisticated protective clothing.Brave men.
Colin
Also on that site:
The BBC's Aidan Lewis adds: "The operator of the plant, Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco), has given no information about their employees. But one expert suggested that workers who have retired or are based in other parts of the country are likely to be called in as the crisis drags on. Those already on duty are being hailed as heroes."
I suspect that the rotation of staff is as much because they are worn out as due to the increased radiation! They will be wearing the regulation protective clothing prescribed for the sector they are working in, but this will be of little use if they are trying to operate a diesel pump and an aftershock topples it on top of them, or another hydrogen explosion goes off..
If they are taking radiation in excess of the permitted dosage they will probably themselves unable to work in their normal jobs after the emergency has ceased. I hope that TEPCO will look after them if this is the case....
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Dear Doddgygeezer,
Your are near in as many words, ""people should not be ignored if they are 'not qualified'. Frequently the best contributions are made by people who are approaching a problem from the outside"" that these words were said to me by someone else today by an Authority in connection with an extremely important matter totally unconnected, and it is indeed most certainly true - my requested evidence has not long ago been emailed to the Investigator-in-Charge (not Police I add). I have spent the last damn hour looking for a letter from 1985 or thereabouts, from a 'senior figure' on the matter so to further prove my point, that I know I have on file somehere, but I am damned if I can find the bloody thing. It doesn't really matter, since there will be record off it on file 'somewhere', but I saw it only a year ago or thereabouts and refiled the bloody thing so to make things easier. Ha, Ha. Damn it.
To your point. The levels are only what we are told they are. Twice exposed No.3. rods bad thing, partially melted supposedly worse, and this preliminary is how Chernobyl commenced but once in a fatal way. Furthermore, it has been admitted that waste containments are boiling... not a good thing... combined with the fact that the other two reactors 'are not very happy', the engineers have a rather tough task in front of them. Bad and very 'awkward' job all in all... won't say the obvious.
Regards, Bernard
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The levels are only what we are told they are. Twice exposed No.3. rods bad thing, partially melted supposedly worse, and this preliminary is how Chernobyl commenced but once in a fatal way. Furthermore, it has been admitted that waste containments are boiling... not a good thing... combined with the fact that the other two reactors 'are not very happy', the engineers have a rather tough task in front of them. Bad and very 'awkward' job all in all... won't say the obvious.
Indeed. I am unhappy at the low level of detail being provided by the authorities - a lot of what they are saying is rather confusing to me.
What I suspect is happening is that the reactors are having negative void coefficient power excursions. This is really a subject for the steam lads amongst us. The water cooling the fuel rods also works as a moderator to slow the neutrons to a suitable reaction speed. If it starts boiling, bubbles of steam (voids) will appear in the water, and the water will become less dense. This will affect the neutrons and drop the reaction rate.
But then the pressure will rise to a point where the steam bubbles collapse. And suddenly the water density spikes, and the nuclear reaction surges up again, at precisely the wrong time. Since boiling is a function of temperature and pressure, this unstable state can be entered several times as a reactor is brought out of criticality. To control it properly you need good control of the pressure and coolant, which they probably have not got in their post-earthquake state...
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Indeed. I am unhappy at the low level of detail being provided by the authorities - a lot of what they are saying is rather confusing to me.
The term 'cover-up' is already bouncing around the media here in China.
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Dear Tiger Tiger,
In fairness to them, they are working extremely hard and the situation is most probably changing minute by minute, so it will be difficult to give out facts since within an hour it will all be different... and different again an hour after that. A situation where you are damned if you do, and damned if you don't... a hateful place to be. As to covering things up... I don't think they have time for that... there is a World of experts out there who will know exactly what is going on.
Brave men indeed are those who are on the ground.
Regards, Bernard
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IHMO The Nuclear Industry is secretive in the extreme and has continually lied to it's self and it's masters for years.
A work college worked at Windscale ..Sellerfield %) for several years and has confirmed as in all things human, accidents were not unknown and there was a culture of keeping them covered up "they didn't want frighten the plebs"
The one thing you can be sure of is the Nuclear industry has a deep distrust in the public and this will probably not change anytime soon..Already the Americans are saying that the Japanese are spinning their situation with non information..
Maybe if they just give people the facts... but then again a certain type people get a real buzz and a sense of powers from knowing something that others do not.
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Interesting that China has now put its nuclear development on hold. Pending further investigations.
One issue brought to light by an Indian academic (and I think UN guy) on TV here.
The effects of burning fossil fuels are having a major impact, but nuclear is some how seen as more insidious. Thousands die in mine accidents each year. Polluted air kills millions every year, acid rain destroys good farm land and forest, global warming. We kind of accept the effects of burning fossil fuel. He also went on to point out that the oil lobby and the fossil fuel lobby will be having a field day, stirring up anti-nuke sentiments. But nuclear energy, even with Chernobyl, is still a relatively safe option.
[note: I remember a statistic that pollution from fossil fuels caused the premature deaths of 80,000 + people every year in the UK]
You have to consider where this guy is coming from. Developing countries need energy to grow their economies, but they don'e always have the cleanest coal/oil power stations and many developing countries do not burn natural gas.
Part of the reason for so much nuclear energy in Japan is due to American foreign policy. They want Japan to be as independent as possible regards meeting its energy needs. It is easy to forget that the main reason for Japan's expansionism, that lead to War in the Pacific, was access to oil.
If China, India, and Brazil get to the per capita energy consumption of the West, and they will, then fossil fuel is not the answer. Nukes must be part of the answer. In addition to renewable resources (some of these also burn carbon by the way).
Currently China has 13 nuke power stations, that produce less than 5% of energy needs. There were plans for another 26 nuke power stations. But they are only seen as part of the solution. China has a lot of Hydro power. This is arguably clean energy, but hydro has a big impact on the environment upstream and downstream. This can have huge negative effects on local economies, health, as well as the environment. Some dam projects are also built in seismically active areas, and there is a fear that very large projects could cause seismic activity.
I know I have gone on a bit. And I am not a big nuke supporter, but most of the alternatives carry risk too. And the most common alternative (coal/oil) is probably much worse.
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There lies the problem in a nutshell - every few years a big media fest disaster in a nuclear power station or the insidious death of 1000s every year from
air pollution of the burning of fossil fuels. Hydro is great for a county like Norway or Scotland but neither example has a huge population.
Wind power expensive and unreliable - my anemometer been reading 0 knots for the past 24hrs and we are the windiest country in Europe.
Until they tame nuclear fusion it remains with nuclear fission and its attendant risks
Geoff
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The obvious thing to do is to go for Thorium technology - about as risk free as it's possible to get. But since that also has the magic word 'nuclear' in its vocabulary, I suppose that's banned as well...
Having looked at a lot of blogs on the Japan problem, I note that most people seem to be saying that it is no big deal. I don't think the general public are actually that fussed about it. But the activists are, and they stir up the politicians. I would not be surprised to find that there is a strong majority in favour of nuclear power, but it is a strong SILENT majority...
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Dear Dodgy Geezer,
I believe you might re referring to Cold Fusion? A friend of mine was on the fringes of this, but sadly died about five or so years ago, so I lost my info. link.
As to hydro power in general, this I am a little involved with. There is plenty of potential in GB, but as soon as someone suggests building a dam, a barrage, or a lagoon, the conservationists come out of the woodwork and that's that - even two conservation bodies involved with the Seven Barrage couldn't agree (one for and one against!) - this 'argument' actually took place on transmitted TV!
There is bound to be knee jerk reaction over nuclear after this - as there was after Chernobyl. The trouble is elec. has got to come from somewhere... forget about windfarms, just a profitable sop for some. So, if people don't want nuclear, they don't want to burn what's left of our oil/gas/coal, there is only one very effective solution - water. The whole of GB survived on it long before steam arrived... and what enabled the first steam engines to be made... waterpower!
So, when these environmentalists etc. eventually get their heads out of the sand, maybe GB can get down to building hydro plants - which should have been done decades ago.
Regards, Bernard
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I believe you might re referring to Cold Fusion?
No - Thorium can be made to operate in reactor in a similar manner to Uranium, but for a variety of reasons it is much safer and more controllable. And the world is awash with it - the reserves are effectively limitless. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium_fuel_cycle refers. India leads this field at the moment, however, and I suspect that the activists will stop any development here. >:-o >:-o
Hydro power is great, and, in common with the rest of Mayhem, I would strongly support the development of large lakes wherever possible. :D But I fear we may have some difficulty with the amount of water head you can achieve in Norfolk..... {:-{
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The problem with water power (consider it different to hydro power) is that the demands for power before the industrial revolution were much lower than they would be today. It is great for small industrial units, very small, but not for larger industry.
We relied more on human power and animal power in those days. We (man and animals) fuelled up several a day, created our own fertilizer to grow the food for fuel, and bred our own replacements. However, life was much harder then and life expectancy was shorter. I don't think most of us would want to go back, even if it does sound idyllic.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-12772396
Barry M
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Dear DodgyGeezer, Tiger Tiger, & Barry, I reply in one Post.
Dear Barry, Yes, good news re the Scottish Proj.. N.Ireland has had one for some while now and is doing well with it. B.
Dear Tiger Tiger, British mining - as just one industry - survived very well with water power up until steam arrived, with many thousands of hp. - and from single take-off's alone (just one mine for example had six wheels in tandem from two leat supplies from three reservoirs producing probably nearly 300 hp.. Collieries were first with steam use, Cornwall second, and other areas progressively if they could obtain a cost effective supply coal. Some metal mining areas continued with water power until their decline in the 1920's (pelton wheels and various forms of turbines), and in Wales alone this was many thousands of hp. between lead, zinc, copper, slate. Many villages throughout the more 'hilly' regions of GB generated electricity by pelton wheel and turbines from 30 to 200 hp. each - privately owned operators - and indeed there were many private micro-generators between 1920 to as late as 1960 - powering anything from hotels, small factories, farms, and private houses. The development of the grid, and 'national local' supply, made this supply more convenient so private generation went into decline - I make no mention of the countless corn, wool, flannel, and other mills that used water (many with between two, three or four water wheels from one river source - 40 to 60hp each wheel). All these power sources are still there, and very very few are being used now... mainly due to the EA or other bodies blocking them... things are afoot to get this sorted out. If you look at the existing main hydro elec. schemes in GB (& personally don't rate pumped storage), many could be enlarged by placing other dams either above or below the existing facilities. Many rivers and hydro sources can be utilised more times than they are at the moment. Just one example is the Elan Valley (Birm.Water Supply), where the foundations were prepared for a future dam when the scheme was built in the late 1890's, and it remains so to this day - it could be built and switched between power generation and water supply (if the latter was ever needed). Many micro hydro schemes are possible, generating between 35 to 80kv +, but most are, again, being blocked by the EA etc., etc.. I make no mention here of the possibilities of barrages, tidal. And so the sorry tale goes on and on... one day it will happen of course... because it will have to! B.
Dear DodgyGeezer, Thanks for the info.. Even Norfolk could produce hydro.! B.
Regards To All, Bernard
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I notice that the head of Toyko Electric has appeared on Television and admitted that information was withheld.
He was seen crying after the interview. No doubt worried about his job . Personally i would have a lot more
respect for him if he turned up at the site to assist and give moral support to the brave men. Who are risking
their lives to avoid disarster. Not much chance of this happening. He would not want to receive radiation unlike
his brave workers.
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I notice that the head of Toyko Electric has appeared on Television and admitted that information was withheld.
He was seen crying after the interview. No doubt worried about his job . Personally i would have a lot more
respect for him if he turned up at the site to assist and give moral support to the brave men. Who are risking
their lives to avoid disarster. Not much chance of this happening. He would not want to receive radiation unlike
his brave workers.
The bowing, apologising profusely and crying is SOP in Japan, when things go wrong. It is the modern professional equivalent of falling on your sword.
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The bowing, apologising profusely and crying is SOP in Japan, when things go wrong. It is the modern professional equivalent of falling on your sword.
Indeed. They actually take some responsibility? The Japanese are really so old-fashioned...
For politicians in this country, the equivalent is:
1) To ignore the issue for as long as possible.
2) To go on television and say "I will not apologise for being correct in all the difficult decisions which I had to make. There is a lot of highly classified information which unfortunately I cannot show you which shows that I was right to do all the things that I did, and which exonerates me from all blame. Now let us move on into a bright new future..."
3) If necessary, sack a friend from a lucrative government position, saying "Mr X is a tireless worker who has my full support, and I am sorry that he feels that he has to take full responsibility for the recent problems..."
4) Re-employ said friend in a couple of months time when the heat has died down....
5) If it surfaces again, set up a committee of enquiry with carefully limited terms of reference, stuffed with people who were responsible for the original disaster, and provide a draft copy of the eventual whitewash findings to the chairman at the same time as you appoint him...
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Dear DodgyGeezer,
You know, we hear this about info. withheld and we hear that about info. withheld, but the long and the short of it is, there was little that could be withheld of any note. It all went pear shaped and that's that, and even those uninformed knew that! - with a bit of imagination, we could all work out how serious it was... is... well at least now 'is' as the media are rapidly loosing interest. Oh how fickle that bunch are... I despise them all.
Re what you say re our lot of politicians, of course true, and, whilst politicians are politicians throughout most of the World, at least the Far East hold principal a bit more than our lot here in the West. The ethos of the Far East still even these days being somewhat more genuine; the ethos in the West... lie in every conceivable way until you can't get away with it!
Whatever be the case, I hope of course that everything will be sorted asap., and, again, I have the greatest of respect for those on the ground who are doing their absolute best to get it sorted out. Brave are they.
Regards, Bernard
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Its in the culture of Japan where saving face is still a way of life, I remember a story told by friends who worked in Japan,
I don't know whether this normal practice..but a big Tokyo store had a well dressed and important looking member of staff, who was brought out in the event of a customer complaint and sacked on the spot in front of the customer.
Needless to say that was his job...He returned to his office ready for the next complaint :}
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I have always considered my Far East dealings to date as honourable but maybe inscrutably exercised. B.
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Dear All,
Things seem to be gradually settling down at that plant in Japan thank Heavens. The media have another toy to play with now and have moved to Libya of course.
Regards, Bernard
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Yes, they are not out of the wood yet, of course, since they have three reactor buildings severely damaged by hydrogen explosions. They still need to inject emergency sea-water coolant to keep things stable. Only when mains electricity is restored will they be able to start clearing up and determining the extent of the damage.
Since several of the reactors there were reaching the end of their lives, I suspect that they will be closed permanently and new ones installed. But examining the equipment as it is disassembled will give us useful info for later designs. It looks as if most things held together well, and the problems were entirely due to no close-down cooling being available after the tidal wave swept away all back-up generators. There is some concern over the containment integrity of reactors 2 and 3, but remember (IIRC) that they were designed to take a vertical acceleration of 0.18G, and the earthquake gave them 0.3G!
I find this to be a useful site to monitor: http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/
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Dear DodgyGeezer,
Thankyou for the Link.
I had read before that whilst seawater is not good for normal opers. (for obvious reasons), that due to the not far away decommissioning of these reactors, it didn't matter since decommissioning would be brought forward.
True re the force the place was hit with, but maybe this should have been considered in design? Likewise someone should really have thought to place back-up generator sets in a place that would have been secure from possible tsunamis? This all well and good to say after the event of course, since, when the facility was built, things were not the same as now. One thing is certain though, I am sure things will be done very much differently from now on.
Regards, Bernard
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The obvious thing to do is to go for Thorium technology - about as risk free as it's possible to get. But since that also has the magic word 'nuclear' in its vocabulary, I suppose that's banned as well...
Waaay off-topic, but I'm personally hanging around until aneutronic proton-boron fusion becomes a reality. :-))
A gram of 11B can fuse with protons to produce just He - no radiation/radioactive waste products - and the energy equivalent of 20000 litres of petrol. :o
Andy
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Dear DodgyGeezer,
True re the force the place was hit with, but maybe this should have been considered in design?
Earthquake and resulting tidal waves were considered in design. The buildings were designed to withstand a 7.9 earthquake and a resulting tidal wave of 5.7m high. They got hit by the biggest earthquake ever recorded in Japan - an 9.0, generating a 10m tidal wave.
The engineering was fine - the problem was deciding what the appropriate level to protect at was....
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Mayhemers may like to peruse this offering from XKCD: http://xkcd.com/radiation/
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Dear DodgyGeezer,
Thankyou for the Link.
You know, I just wonder... maybe in an active earthquake zone as Japan is, that 9 might have been the best place to have started design thinking from? - anywhere really.
Regards, Bernard
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...I'm personally hanging around until aneutronic proton-boron fusion becomes a reality.
I'm personally hanging around until they get rid of all nuclear filth and start to listen to what Nikola Tesla had to say.
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I don't really know how to ask this without either incurring wrath or causing offence...neither of which is my intention.
When these early design reactors were designed and built in Japan surely it was known that the geographical site was very close to the confluence of 2 tectonic plates (the oceanic one sliding under the coastal plate). Was there a good reason not to build these power stations on the western side of the island? You just have to look at google earth to be horrified at the proximity of an ocean abyss to centres of population.
And now the "Greens" are spouting off about the UK being hit by a similar event, conveniently ignoring the fact that our patch of the worlds surface is on a basically nice and stable (and large) continental shelf. I also understand that at least some of the French reactors are inland and not on the coast.
I really do hope that common sense (in short supply with such an emotive subject) will prevail, and whether one likes the nuclear option or not, we don't (at the moment) have much choice.
My only quibble is about the storage/disposal of the nuclear waste.....otherwise I'm quite happy to have my electricity supplied by a nuclear powered source. Sorry to butt in. BY.
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Dear Bryan,
I am in general of the same thoughts as you. For some reason or another, most of Japan's plants seem to be on a 'suspect' coast, and not what possibly might be called a safer coast. My thinking, and I am sure eventually International thinking, will be that any future plants will allow for max. disturbance. There is nothing wrong with over engineering with such facilities - in my mind anyway. As to waste, well, I am a touch surprised that the tanks in Japan were able to boil. Security for same, and the whole plant, should have been more carefully considered.
Dear PMK, Until such time as those in power see water/hydro as a proper source of power we are firmly stuck with nuclear. Yet again I say, that, every time a good source of hydro is identified it is blocked by whatever agency or whatever environmental group you care to name. What do these damn people want? - but they need what we all need... electricity.
Regards, Bernard
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Shipping damage from the Japan earthquake & tsunami sent to me by Captain Jimmy....
Shipping damage (http://modelboatmayhem.co.uk/temp/JapanTsunami.pps)
NB: PPS/PPT/Powerpoint sideshow If file doesn't open properly,... Right click > "Save File As:"
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Some amazing photos there Martin.
Thanks for posting :-))
Mark
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It just shows how insignificant man is when nature kicks off
Geoff
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this is new for me- just in case you haven't seen tsunami fro new angle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=IQqmp9OOE1E&vq=medium