Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Model Boating => Topic started by: funtimefrankie on April 12, 2011, 08:18:58 am
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http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-news/regional-news/2011/04/12/steam-boats-banned-from-wirral-boating-lakes-92534-28501625/
Discuss.........
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the usual madness
This seasons colour will be bubblewrap
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And rightly so too. Dangerous toys using fire and petrol, Even got an ex purt to give the reasons.
Says nowt about Diesels or Glow though? %) or "Screaming jet boats" we were accused of 50 odd years ago ( ED Racer or Hunter)
Regards Ian
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If that is so, and people ARE using uncertificated boilers on a public lake that is also used by a club, then I don't blame the club or the council for banning them.
An uncertificated boiler is an un insured boiler, and if anything did go wrong on a lake used by a club, I'm damn sure that the recipient of the injury would sue the council and the club that sails on the lake for not taking adequate control.
It's the usual case though of the socially inept and inconsiderate minority spoiling it for the majority.
I searched high and low for a tester of my twin engined Imara, knowing full well that I would never steam it, but always able too..cost me ten quid to join a club who had insursance................so DON'T BLAME THE CLUB........they are only looking after their own and members interests.....blame the individuals who don't tow the line and asusual are being anti social to the rest of us.
after all you wouldn't want your kids or grand kids maiming scarring or even being killed by an exploding boiler or a flying nitro.........I know I wouldn't!!!!
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Brush, Tar and everybody spring to mind nhp651. Should we ban cars cos not ALL who drive have a licence? The inference that all steam powered models run at high speed and crash into the bank are a danger is far from the norm.
They should also introduce a speed limit and noise level limit cos lots of "Safe" lecky powered missiles are just as bad.
Oh, and don't forget the Frequency checker :-))
Regards Ian.
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that's what society is all about Ian.the majority get blamed for the minority of rectal orofices, but you can't blame the club or the council for covering their backs just because of a minority want to act unsociably
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I wonder if that local council will ban the steam traction engines as well?
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How many people killed / injured by a steam boiler exploding.. How many people killed by a car hitting them on the road.. They going to ban cars as well.. <*<
Idiots..
Would be intersting for the council to back up their claim that clubs asked them to be banned from lakes..
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I hope the Club Chairman is pleased with his achievement in getting these dangerous craft banned.
It is a well know FACT that being anywhere NEAR water can have fatal consequences!! Just look at the number of deaths and injuries caused when in the vicinity of water!
Unlike "Stan the Man" - I offer proof of my findings ...
2007: Jennifer Strange, a 28-year-old American woman from Sacramento, died of water intoxication while trying to win a Nintendo Wii console in a KDND 107.9 "The End" radio station's "Hold Your Wee for a Wii" contest, which involved drinking large quantities of water without urinating.
You can't be too careful %) %) %)
God help us all!!
Danny
(with tongue FIRMLY in cheek)
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Think we had better ban weapons on nuclear subs as well in case anybody decides to kill someome on their own side... Oops to late....!!!
Wirral Council had better ban swimming as well just incase.
A total of 17 people drowned in Latvia last weekend as people sought to cool off during a heatwave. At least 40 people have so far been confirmed as drowned this month.
Also a Swan killed a swimmer there as well , There are swans at the NB Pond ..
So in total a lot more deaths than I have been able to find for any Model Steam Engine injuries for the type in Model Boats..
Again What a bunch of Ill informed Idiots.
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Remove the water ---- Remove the risk ----- Simples %% %%
Ned
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"Safe" lecky powered missiles are just as bad.
Regards Ian.
True have you seen a lipo go pop?
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Reading the article again I get the impression it is the Chairman of NBMBC who asked the council to put up the signs, so in fact Did the council ban them or is it just the club who have decided that they do not want steam boats on the Pond.. If it is just the club then I would have thought that the signs mean nothing as to my knowledge the lake is a Public pond and not owned by the club. A bit like the signs DO NOt Feed the Swans.. Nobody takes a blind bit of notice..
Also I Have seen a 6Volt Lead acid battery explode so we had better ban them as well.. :police:
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of subject but this sounds like the council at colwyn bay where i sail, we cannot park cars on grass as it damages the grass, have to leave boats on bank then park car on car park 100yards away other side of buildings, in the mean time your boat can get pinched if you are on your own but hay that dont matter the grass is safe
davidj
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Just a little bit off topic, but perhaps revelant. For the past couple of years our lake at Tynemouth was in a disgusting state due to weed and algae growth (now cleared)....but the general public seemed quite keen to blame the club for not cleaning up the lake. Understandable in its way I suppose. So I can well imagine the directions fingers would be pointed if a non-club member had a boiler blow up. BY.
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The old fragmentation grenade effect is still being bandied about even though it has been conclusively proved that these small boilers are incapable of exploding. If they were dangerous then it has been suggested that they would detonate with the ferocity of a fragmentation grenade in which case a 5.5 inch gauge loco would probably explode with the effect of a 105mm howitzer shell,. a 7 1/4 inch boiler would no doubt go off like a 500 lb aerial bomb and a full size steam road tractor would detonate like a stick of a thousand pounders. How dare the owners of such devices expose the public to such risks. It has been suggested that the risk lies with the inexperienced operators of the small boilers, whereas those with the large steam boilers are responsible people who know what they are doing and are thereby risk free. From my observations many of these so-called operators are aging rapidly and are showing clear signs of dementia and confusion and need to be tested for signs of dangerous irrationality.
The problem is that even though it is glaringly obvious that the small boilers are quite safe there is still a reluctance of officials to allow them to operate purely because they don't want to be known as the person who allowed a potential danger to be accepted by the authorities. Even though there is no potential danger.
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It would be interesting if a member of the club concerned who asked for the ban would have the guts to come forward and state why they thought they should ask the council to ban steam boats.
Peter
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But Stan Parkinson, chairman of New Brighton Model Boat Club, said the ban was introduced for safety reasons, primarily to protect children who visit the lake to watch enthusiasts sailing model boats.
Read More http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-news/regional-news/2011/04/12/steam-boats-banned-from-wirral-boating-lakes-92534-28501625/2/#ixzz1JO1in5CS
Problem with posting reports is that some readers don't actually read and understand the written words. It was on page two however.
I wonder how many "Officials" would be sent round to enforce the rule if some miscreant has the audacity to flaunt it? Perhaps there should be a high fence erected around the pond to ensure no-one falls in cos we ALL know what's likely to happen then.
Regards Ian.
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What a sad day for model boating as a whole. We should be sticking together not fragmenting. Unfortunately it seems that Mr Parkinson is relatively ignorant as regards other sections of model boating... petrol boats exploding, never heard of one doing so. I can relate to lake size being a problem with larger faster craft but really... Petrol boats "really are designed for off-shore"??? Maybe he should visit a Naviga FSR-V or FSR-O competition.
Uninformed, badly informed or just being uninterested in other parts of the hobby is no excuse to take this line. Any one got a monster electric boat that can go and run there? They can cause a hell of a lot of damage as well. Lipos are a documented as bursting into flames but the reality is that it is a rare occurrence.
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As an observation, no boiler certificate does not mean no insurance. Have a look at your household insurance which contains a third party liability section in case someone is injured by your hobby - I forget the exact phrase but its something like boats over 20 feet and planes over x feet in span.
You do not have to belong to a club to use public water - its upkeep is paid for by the tax payer - so insurance by the club is fine but if you are not a member, no insurance - not try - read the insurance policies.
It sounds like someone at the club took action out of spite - hope they are proud of themselves.
Does any one operate a steam boat capable of high speed and damage in the event of a collission - it seems to me large scale yachts are more than capable of doing great damage - perhaps we should ban those as well, or what about fast electrics ?
All nonsence PC gone mad.
Rant over!!
Enjoy the boating whilst we can, then ignore the ban and see what happens!
G
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Those sailing boats have pointy masts..... could have someones eye out with one of those!
Better ban them as well
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Quite simply, I do not think the council have banned these boats. That would take a local bye law, something which I doubt the council would put the time and effort into. The signs are more likely there to frighten people away from using the boats. I seriously doubt any penalties could be imposed, so who is going to be the first to try it out?
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It wouldn't be the first time that councils have put up signs banning something or other without having a byelaw to back it up,
anything from from banning walking on the grass to not allowing dogs etc - many moons ago they often used to quote the bylaw number
on the signs - council should be able to provide a copy of the byelaws on request.
Geoff
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I'm afraid to go down to the pond now........ there will soon be an encampment of injury claim solicitors on the green opposite waiting to pounce on anyone visiting the water. Unfortunately its just another face to our sue sue sue ambulance chasing litigation society that has drifted in from across the big pond.
Don't forget accident don't just happen...... there is ALWAYS someone to blame!! :police: :-)) :-)) :-))
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But the person having the accident is NEVER to blame >>:-(
People just don't take responsibility for their own actions any more. {:-{
BTW There used to be 'Polite' notices instead of 'Police' :police:
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Hello,
I had a Link to the New Brighton Club on my website - - - it has been removed!.
They have a Link to mine - - - asked for it to be removed ASAP.
John.
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Hello,
Surprise, surprise, my email to the Chairman of the New Brighton Club is unavailable via email !!!!!.
I wonder why ???.
John. :((
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Are there no New Brighton Members on here to pass comment ?, if not just to clarify things.
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If I was a steam man and had a valid boiler cert. and lived near I would fire up and put the ban to the test and ask to see the by-law.lets hope somebody makes a challenge as this could end up going the same way as the bans i.c. engine boats ,maybee local councils won't be happy untill they get all boats off ponds and lakes just to keep the local duck feeders happy.
Ray
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I think the issue here is that the "health & safety officials" and "experts" are incapable of properly judging risk. Any proper risk analysis takes into account the probability of an incident as well as the possible consequences. As in so many of these cases the probability of an incident appears to not have been properly considered. If it had been, given that there appears to be no evidence of any actual incidents of boiler blow ups, and certainly I have not heard of any issues on this particular pond, the "experts" would have realised that the risk that they are worrying about is so small as to be negligible.
Local councils need to wake up to the fact that we all need to take responsibility for our own actions, we don't need them to do it for us. I am amazed that the local club should support such unnecessary interference (or even ask for it to take place!)
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Does any one operate a steam boat capable of high speed and damage in the event of a collission - it seems to me large scale yachts are more than capable of doing great damage - perhaps we should ban those as well, or what about fast electrics ?
There sure is people who operate fast steam boats,how about the straight runners ( 12 mph some with flash boilers. )
How about my Flash Steamer OOYAH 40 mph and no boiler certificate required as it's a Monotube boiler., do you think that the club chairman would object,
or what would the Local authorities think.
George.
(http://s4.postimage.org/1hgpc8204/OOYAH_2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1hgpc8204/)
(http://s4.postimage.org/1hi2ycgtg/Ooyah_2_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1hi2ycgtg/)
(http://s4.postimage.org/1hi9khusk/OOYAH_at_speed.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1hi9khusk/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/sdkj49es/Ooyah_2_2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/sdkj49es/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/sefybusk/Ooyah_plan_view.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/sefybusk/)
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As has been said' If the ban is not backed up by a full Council Committee or a By Law then it is not enforcible.
By association, it is also unlawful.
Who wants to sue for loss of amenity?
Think about it. Works both ways.
Perhaps Mr Parkinson received a free pen with his application !!! <*< <*< <*<
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it's strange that a council removing 170 by laws would bring in a frivolous one like this.
Peter
http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-news/regional-news/2010/09/15/wirral-council-to-remove-170-bylaws-from-statute-books-92534-27270092/
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Forgive an Old Codger But what happened to Common Sense???? :o
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Forgive an Old Codger But what happened to Common Sense???? :o
... it's been sued for being not common enough for people who insist on behaving irresponsible...
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do you think that the club chairman would object,
Yes, it's irresponsible young speed freeks like you we have to protect ourselves from Ooyah/2
Regards Ian.
>>:-( {-)
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Hi Ian,
Thank's for the compliment "YOUNG" could probably give you a few years, where is your sense of adventure, this boat not only frightens children and horses
so it would probably give this very officious Chairman palpitations.
As the boat is laid up at present wondering what to do with it, it has been suggested that I bring it to the clubs open and could use it to B.B. Q. sausages from the exhaust.
George.
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Hello,
I wonder if the New Brighton Club Members have been told to keep quiet about the "Steam Ban"???.
No replies from them!.
John.
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Or too embarrassed to post on a forum with members who know more about steam models, health and safety,bye laws, councillor manipulation and, almost forgot,
Common sense.
Ned
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Just as a matter of interest, NOT That i am against steam powered boats but what P.S.I. Do they run at. Yes i sail at New brighton but not a member.
The way i see it.......... A Prop driven by a high powered motor can quite easily take the fingers of a child and we have all seen it a boat on it's stand left switched on and someone comes along on the same frequency and the boat goes mad. So when it comes to Danger within model boats.....planes... cars .....helicopters were do you draw the line as they all have their dangers if miss used.
Regards Dave.
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Just as a matter of interest, NOT That i am against steam powered boats but what P.S.I. Do they run at. Yes i sail at New brighton but not a member.
The way i see it.......... A Prop driven by a high powered motor can quite easily take the fingers of a child and we have all seen it a boat on it's stand left switched on and someone comes along on the same frequency and the boat goes mad. So when it comes to Danger within model boats.....planes... cars .....helicopters were do you draw the line as they all have their dangers if miss used.
Regards Dave.
So you use the water, but are not a club member. If you or your boat have/cause an accident guess where fingers would point. BY.
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Not a problem, boat included in house insurance for 3rd party cover.
Regards Dave.
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Hello,
I wonder if the New Brighton Club Members have been told to keep quiet about the "Steam Ban"???.
No replies from them!.
John.
I am not a member, principally because I don't want to be associated with that butch of flatulence emitting old men. I do do have a steam launch though and I will not be taking one jot of notice of this so called ban when I reactivate her; you will be glad to hear that after which I shall await the court summons with alacrity.
I had been using the old lake at New Brighton for nigh on sixty years making use of sail, electric and steam powered models. I have not used the new mini lake for various reason's but, mainly due to the condition of the water which has not been changed since it was opened last year and is unlikely to be so in the near future either because the mains supply is yet to be connected.
This, in my juniced view, has more to do with someone wanting to make a name for themselves rather than their concern for public safety and has gone a lot further than the bullying idiot bargained for.
Can I also suggest that a defiant "steam in" be organised in the not to distant future at this venue to show our disdain for this"ban"
LB
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Am I being overly simplistic in assuming that the Chairman of a Model Boat Club should be doing all in his power to AVOID model boats being banned, not going out of his way to encourage such 'draconian' actions. This sort of behaviour could have far reaching implications for all modellers, as council types rarely take 'facts' into account when making decisions, and word travels fast.
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I was going to contact the council to get clarification but unfortunately did not have much time today..
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Strikes me as yet another club getting big brother to prevent any non members using THEIR water. It really gets to me how these cardigan commandos seem to think that they own every stretch of water in the land. The days of building a boat to have some fun with the kids at the local lake will soon be over if these lot get their way. Soon you will have to be a member of a club just to own a boat.
Fact, most small boilers would just split and release their steam in a oner, all this garbage about frag grenades is scaremongering to promote the interests of the club. Check your home insurance, I know mine covers me for £1m against damage caused by my posessions.
Having seen hand grenades go off for real, I doubt very much that a bit of copper at 60 psi could do the same.
If you want to join a club and be told that you have built your boat wrong or that it's the wrong shade of grey for a 1962 patrol boat then go ahead. Just don't set out to spoil the fun for those that don't. And stop letting the H&S brigade scare you into giving up your hobby.
Sorry, rant over, soap box returned to dark corner.
Dean.
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The instigators of this draconian measure should be asked to produce documented proof of any model boat boiler having 'exploded' and causing injury to a member of the public. As to the other charge that nitro boats can do the same.........have you ever tried to light nitro fuel??????
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Maybe they saw this episode of Mythbusters
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4cscaFyItA
Ok hands up who wants their job? :D
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Is this the same "Chair man" seen on TV programme "Coast" making facetious remarks about repairing model boats in winter so they could be sailed in summer? <*<
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Frankly this is just ********* banning engines and steam boilers in model boats eh? for what H&S reasons pfft, perhaps they should ban cars, lorry's, buses, trains , air craft for H&S reasons.. more people are hurt or killed in car incidents every year then a model boat accident since they first came about! and yet any idiot with a licence can drive! Aircraft can take out over 300 people at a time when they crash and trains the same!
In fact more people are killed when the jacks fail on there car when changing tires!
And if its all about the 'environmental impact' our boats have on local wild life... just point to BP and the oil leaks they have and say well its not even half as bad that them, or point out the past leaking oil tankers that have destroyed many beaches and local wild life...
As long as your insured and your boilers have there certificates ( like an MOT) what's the issue?! there isn't one!
pathetic it really is !
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would like to know how many club members they have lost over this ban? or did they reimbursed club members for the none use of their models, because how would you like it if you spent time and money then being toad sorry you can not run that because it might go bang,one way to keep the club going :-)) :-))
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Really wound them up now!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1380787/Health-safety-killjoys-ban-dangerous-model-steamboats.html
Rergards Ian.
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Was it a steamboat that jumped out of the lake and hit some one?
If the ruling is not a byelaw and you turn up with a boiler certificate and a certificate of insurance
there is not a lot they can do.
If the Editor of a magazine that is supposed to embrace all aspects of the hobby is seen to be condoning the
council's acts then I for one will not buy it.
Ned
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My reading of the Daily Wail article is that the club has banned steam models because its own insurance doesn't cover its members for that type of model. So in the absence of any local bye-law and indeed any reference to the local council on the "Welcome" (??!!) sign I reckon that the only folk who are subject to this ban are club members themselves. As has been said, if their own household insurance does cover them then what's the problem - apart, that is, from Mr Parkinson and his acolytes?
I reckon Mr Parkinson is probably a retired nobody who just wants to be vaguely important before he sails off into the sunset - there's usually one in every club. He should be given a tin drum and told to go and bang it somewhere else. If I were a steam modeller in that club then I'd demand a refund of my annual subs and carry on sailing there as a privateer (own insurance permitting, of course).
DM
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If the Editor of a magazine that is supposed to embrace all aspects of the hobby is seen to be condoning the
council's acts then I for one will not buy it.
Ned
Paul Freshney, editor of Model Boats magazine, said the ban was a depressing development.
‘Steam has always had a fascination for enthusiasts, but sadly there are these problems about boilers and safety, together with insurance cover.
‘It seems that some clubs take the view that the only way to guarantee that there are no problems is not to have steam powered boats.’I don't read the above as condoning the ban
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Paul Freshney, editor of Model Boats magazine, said the ban was a depressing development.
‘Steam has always had a fascination for enthusiasts, but sadly there are these problems about boilers and safety, together with insurance cover.
‘It seems that some clubs take the view that the only way to guarantee that there are no problems is not to have steam powered boats.’I don't read the above as condoning the ban
Shame on you Paul Freshney.... your statement is as much a disgrace as the ban! you sir with that attitude would make an excellent politician... i bet if you threw a stone in the lake it would not make a single wave!
we are all doomed
db
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Paul Freshney should have replied that there are no safety problems with a properly tested and insured steam plant.
His answer was a bit negative stating (to the public at large via a tabloid newspaper) that there are problems.
Ned
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I certainly don't think the council is to blame here.
It looks like a case of Our Club Doesnt Cover The Insurance so NO Steam Should use the facility.
From the last article.
Wasn't it the Chairman who asked for the ban? Is he backtracking a little?
"But Stan Parkinson, chairman of New Brighton Model Boat Club, said they had no choice but to support the ban - which also applies to petrol-engined vessels - as their insurance didn’t cover steam-powered boats.
‘We are not killjoys - we want to encourage people who like mucking about with boats,’ he said.
‘I understand their dilemma and frustration, but if one of those boilers blew, there could be a hell of a mess.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1380787/Health-safety-killjoys-ban-dangerous-model-steamboats.html#ixzz1KiBQKwY7"
Well done that club, certainly promoting the hobby well, but only as long as it is the parts WE use.
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The sign says nothing about the model boat club. Bottom LH corner seems to say "Wirral" or I need to go to specslavers?
Regards Ian.
Kirklees Model Boat Club will be holding their second steam boat convention on Sunday 8 May 2011
Don't worry guys, at least in Yorkshire we've been blessed with common sense.
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From the ORIGINAL article:
Wirral Council was last night accused of being a “killjoy” for putting up signs saying they were not welcome at lakes in New Brighton and Hoylake.
But officials said they were asked by boating clubs to bring in the ban for safety reasons.
Read More http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-news/regional-news/2011/04/12/steam-boats-banned-from-wirral-boating-lakes-92534-28501625/#ixzz1KiFlBbRt
I have highlighted it for you.
Shall I make an appointment at specsavers for you.
The Council have acted on the "Informed Advice" From the Chairman of the local club.
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The SIGN says nothing about the model boat club. Bottom LH corner seems to say "Wirral" or I need to go to specslavers?
??
Regards Ian.
Have made the relevant word BIGGER.
And to reiterate, it says Nowt about Diesel or Glow powered.
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Shame on you Paul Freshney.... your statement is as much a disgrace as the ban! you sir with that attitude would make an excellent politician... i bet if you threw a stone in the lake it would not make a single wave!
we are all doomed
db
Careful before you attack Paul on what he MIGHT have said - newspaper journalists DO have a habit of only writing what THEY think would make a good article - and being VERY selective with their quotes. Paul might have clarified his statement to the journo at the time, we will not know unless he comes on here and tells us himself, but dont for one minute believe that the words attributed to him in the article are the only words he muttered or that they were said in that order......
Believe me - newspaper journos are only after a good story..if they can sensationalise it a bit...........they will!!!!
Carl
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this was in the sun newspaper today april 27 hope the photo is ok to see what with getting arrested for singing kung fu song and a little old lady nicked for feeding birds i think we should blow up the world and start again
(http://s4.postimage.org/2hkvotpwk/001.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2hkvotpwk/)
(http://s4.postimage.org/2hl0nfrdw/002.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2hl0nfrdw/)
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see article on this on chit chat put it in the wrong foram
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So I assume the ban will be as effective as the "Do Not Feed The Swans Bit" which nobody takes a blind bit of notice to.., I was by the lake a few weeks ago and a family were quite happily feeding the 1 swan there with bread while boaters were also using the lake and NOBODY said a thing..
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I think it is time to set up a New Brighton Model steam Boat Club, they have not got sole use of the lake so there is no reason why another club could not be set up.
peter
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Kirklees Model Boat Club will be holding their second steam boat convention on Sunday 8 May 2011
:-)) Yep Fired mine up the other day In the Back garden %), For the show I will be getting some steel armour suiting, Steel toecapped shoes, a Welding mask and fire proof gloves, I assume Kirklees will be draining the lake of any water incase I fall in and drown 8) 8)
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:-)) Yep Fired mine up the other day In the Back garden %), For the show I will be getting some steel armour suiting, Steel toecapped shoes, a Welding mask and fire proof gloves, I assume Kirklees will be draining the lake of any water incase I fall in and drown 8) 8)
I hope will you be offering bubble wrap suits and relevant safety equipment to those passing withing 30feet of your boat
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Now that is something we had not considered as Essex2visuvesi suggests.....
"I hope will you be offering bubble wrap suits and relevant safety equipment to those passing withing 30 feet of your boat"
However the more important point of consideration is %% ......if a said model steam engine boiler exploded >>:-(
It could create a big TSUMINI wave & cause 1/2 of the world to be caught by flood just like Japan........... :P :-X .....Derek
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I think it is time to set up a New Brighton Model steam Boat Club, they have not got sole use of the lake so there is no reason why another club could not be set up.
peter
I'll second that.
However, before I would sail any model of mine there, the water will have to be changed as that is the real danger to health and public safety. I fact it should be drained until a full water supply and proper drainage is established.
LB
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All dressed up for a family day out in New Brighton
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just a point IF mr clarks boat did blow up how could the club be responsible he is not a member of said club
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All dressed up for a family day out in New Brighton
{-) {-) {-) {-) {-), Ordering one now..
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Has it got CE approval {-) {-)
Peter
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I would like to be a fly on the Wall at the NBMBC meeting on Thursday.. :police:
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1380787/Health-safety-killjoys-ban-dangerous-model-steamboats.html
What really surprises me is how the Council could implement such a ban without first conducting an investigation into the perceived risk. Had they done so they would have found out that boilers are fitted with a Pressure Relief Valve which is set to operate at 110% of the design pressure - that is, the design pressure + 10%. Excess pressure would be safely released thereby eliminating the risk of an explosion. Secondly, a properly designed boiler with a current test certificate should be proof enough that the boiler is safe to use.
From what I can gather from the news article, the ‘Clubs Insurance’ does not cover boats operated by Steam. Therefore I think the Club are using the H&S slant of the perceived risk of an explosion as an excuse to get around it.
..... ‘We erected the notices banning steam and petrol powered craft on the advice of the model boat club with whom we have a close relationship,’ a spokesman said .....
I think the italicize comment taken from the Daily Mail news article says it all!
This whole business is a sorry state of affairs.
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Really wound them up now!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1380787/Health-safety-killjoys-ban-dangerous-model-steamboats.html
Rergards Ian.
A Nice Photo of MY Tug. :-) :-)
Regards Dave.
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Really wound them up now!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1380787/Health-safety-killjoys-ban-dangerous-model-steamboats.html
Rergards Ian.
love this ,,knowing this lot ,hankies will be out and you will get talked about .
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I think it is time to set up a New Brighton Model steam Boat Club, they have not got sole use of the lake so there is no reason why another club could not be set up.
peter
This is a question and a possible new therory .to hell with old women and the rubbish that goes round
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Instead of prohibiting steam. Surely common sense would have dictated a change of insurence company? Is
this to simple? My clubs insurence covers steam. So is possible to obtain. John.
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We had a very similar problem with the club I used to fly helicopters at. Their dinosaur of a "Hon Sec" (and I use the term extremely loosely) <*< <*< banned the use of Spektrum DX6i transmitters because the were designed to be powered by 4 AA batteries. :o
Those who had them were prevented from flying unless they either bought a new TX or adapted them to use a "welded" battery pack, (a move which would invalidate the TX warranty) >>:-( >>:-( >>:-(
After many weeks of argument, and the club being told what to do with their airspace, a few of us left under acrimonious circumstances, and joined another club.
The dinosaurs maintained that "if the TX was dropped, the batteries would likely become disconnected". >:-o >:-o
We maintained that if the TX was dropped (whilst flying a heli), it would not matter one iota if the batteries fell out because the heli would already be out of control and crashing. {:-{ {:-{
Some weeks later, the BMFA approved the DX6i saying that a company such as Spektrum would never jeopardise their reputation by designing something which was inherently unsafe. <*< <*< <*< <*<
The point I am trying to make is, take your argument and all the evidence you can muster and confront the "Lawgivers". You will probably win in the end since they cannot prove their point. :-)) :-))
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Common sense seems lacking in this case. I get the feeling there is something going on in that club that we don't know about. Internal club politics is, unfortunately, all to common in every type of hobby.
Personally i don't see what the council could do if you sailed there & had a copy of your insurance & test certificates with you.
Cheers Glenn
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We had a very similar problem with the club I used to fly helicopters at. Their dinosaur of a "Hon Sec" (and I use the term extremely loosely) <*< <*< banned the use of Spektrum DX6i transmitters because the were designed to be powered by 4 AA batteries. :o
How was the H.Sec able to enforce a Ban, was it carried in a vote by the club , or just on his say so, if just his say so then it was not valid.
Did any one see the News NW , I taped ITv in Error Doh..
One thing for sure, all this has given an old club a lot of exposure, unfortunately just the wrong type..
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just out of curiosity, if it is a valid ban by wirral borough council, how come at Gautby Road in Birkenhead, a lake in the middle of a housing development, its ok to race high speed ic boats? (but not at New Brighton )can steam operate there, and what about Hoylake just down the road from New Brighton, and Ashton Park in West Kirby? all fall under same council? can Steam operate at these lakes?
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How was the H.Sec able to enforce a Ban, was it carried in a vote by the club , or just on his say so, if just his say so then it was not valid.
Most of his Committee were plank flyers like he was and also did loads of "bowing and scraping" when he snapped his fingers. Voting was a foregone conclusion. >>:-( >>:-(
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Just Watched the News report, The biggest load of Horlicks I have ever seen and Heard, An Alan Dean and Michael Friend (as quoted on the report), Alan saying how the boilers might explode and send shrapnel into your eyes !! or anything, with Michael saying how the oil which is used to lubricate the steam engines might pollute the water, From what I saw of the water last time I doubt it would make any difference, and in a lot of cases is probably the same oil that is used to lubricate the prop shafts on a lot of boats..
you can view the the report here.. and is 16.20 into the clip
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b010nr0x/North_West_Tonight_27_04_2011/
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As its a public amenity, presumably the steam and ic people will be entitled to a refund on their council tax for something they have been 'banned' from using.
Health and Safety, what a load of boll**ks!!
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I am a member of new brighton club as well as ellesmere port. Can i just say that to all that are going on about no-one ever seeing a boiler blowing up, let me tell you a little story. Late last year one of the ellesmere port members was working on a boiler and he bought a blow off valve from ebay. He heated the boiler up and it exploded, the valve hadn't worked. Instead of opening, the valve shot off and hit the lad in the face covering him with boiling water causing serious injury and severe bruising. But club insurance didn't cover it.
It's the Council that has banned steam and IC from new brighton, not the club. All the club is asking is that MEMBERS do not sail these boats as our insurance doesn't cover them. As for members of the public who have steam boats, there's probably no doubt they haven't a boiler certificate OR insurance. The club can't stop them as it is a public lake and it's down to the council to enforce it. It's not health and safety gone mad, it's common sense. I hope that mayhemmers can see this predicament that the clubs in. There are actually signs around the lake that says no steam boats, THAT was down to the council not the club. Don't lay the blame on the New Brighton club.
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"As for members of the public who have steam boats, there's probably no doubt they haven't a boiler certificate OR insurance."
How does this make any sense to you?
I am not a member of your club bot have just spent the last 3 years building a steam engine, boat and boiler. The boiler is tested and passed I am insured and the boat will travel slower than a number of the electric boats seen on the local news broadcast.
Clearly poorly informed by the way boilers are made of copper not brass (unless they are so small that they work at very low pressure and are therefore exempt from the boiler regulations.
IC boats are a different issue on this pond clearly unsuitable.
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I am sorry to here of the Incident at the E'port Club and hope he has recovered, However I can not see the ban being brought into place because of this 1 very unpleasant incident, I can say I have never seen a boiler blow, However I have seen ESC controllers set fire to boats, which in turn Could set fire to a lead acid battery sending acid flying around the area, and I have seen the after effects of this happening,(luckily no injuries apart from pride) Not because of fire but overcharging, so in theory these battery's and esc's should also be banned, Common sense works both ways..
As regards IC yes I agree that Both the Hoylake and NB ponds are far to small to be able to operate effectively
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Late last year one of the Ellesmere port members was working on a boiler and he bought a blow off valve from ebay. He heated the boiler up and it exploded, the valve hadn't worked. Instead of opening, the valve shot off and hit the lad in the face covering him with boiling water causing serious injury and severe bruising. But club insurance didn't cover it.
Doesn't say where the operation was being carried out, was it at the pond side, was it at the owners premises, was the "Lad" the owner who was messing with it?
Tar and brushes spring to mind.
Seems there are far more claims put in to the insurance companies for people tripping on pavements in the Mersey area than "Exploding" boilers. In reading the actual words and being able to understand ENGLISH, the boiler didn't explode.
Sounds a bit like the Gerrard Hoffnung rendition of "Respected Sir"
Regards Ian.
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Garston 1 Can you tell me why your club did not alter its insurence so as to cover steam boats? Surely a decent
policy would have satisfied the council of safety? I do of course relize that you can only deal with club
members. Surely by offering the correct insurence you could boost membership instead of driving them away.
Most clubs would want to help and encourage members. Thanks John.
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With the introduction of a blanket ban, nobody in the club is qualified to check for basic safety requirements
Regards Ian.
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It seems odd that the picture in the sun article was a small steam boat and could (not would) be except from needing a test if you use the bar litre chart. It seems this ban stems from pure ignorance. So lets take a look, maybe the club does not have a boiler tester, well I'm sure there are a few clubs around the area that would help rather than see "no steam allowed"
Maybe there is someone in the club who thinks they know about steam (well you get them everywhere) little knowledge etc etc, and now see's it as a danger. Small boilers (toy type, constructed of brass----not recommended by the way) can be purchased ready made with engine a boat from a well known high street nautical type shop, taken down to the pond and set off on its travels, maybe the instructions were read----who knows......now you might have a recipe for a disaster.
Sense need to prevail, this site alone has more than a few very knowledgeable persons on steam who I'm sure would have been more than happy to help and advise (I sort of include myself in that...hummmm)
And as George has said, his boat does 40mph and has no boiler........how would they feel about that.
As for the poor lad who bought the safety valve fitted it and wooosh ! (glad he's ok) that I'm afraid is a little bit of ignorance, seems like the thread in the boiler was shot.
I have been running high speed steam boats for years, as did my Father and Grandfather and in all that time the worst that has happened is a gauge glass going (loud woosh then nothing as it put out the lamp) and a tube blowing (1 sec woosh--lamp out--then nothing)
Our club as does any club affiliated to the Model Power Boat Association test all pressure vessels no mater what size (we do not follow the bar litre chart) and this why we have had no problems.
Our insurance company is happy with the way we test (they have a copy of our rules and testing procedures) so all are happy little boaters. Lets hope time will change a few minds in the New Brighton Club
:-))
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My boys were drooling over this one the other day.....
http://www.aquacraftmodels.com/boats/aqub20-ul1-superior/
It only runs on batteries so it must be safe for an 11yr old %%
And according to their rules I can happily run this one with no worries on their little lake
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As a long term member of one of the only clubs in the UK that uses pyrotechnics, I think I can add a little to this. Over the years we have encountered problems which we have overcome, we have changed insurance providers as better ones became able to cover our rather odd needs, we have dedicated Safety Officers who can advise members and are on site at our events, our rules develop and change as needed, our members are aware of the inherent risks in what they do and behave accordingly at the lakeside, we have a cordial relationship with the local council, we dont buy safety devices from ebay. In short we have evolved over the years to cope with the demands of displaying in the 21st century.
Surely this is the better option, foreward rather than backwards, heres hoping this situation resolves itself soon.
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The only side effect of this furore in the press could be for insurance companies to re-consider whether they will continue
to insure any club that allows "steamers" on their waters. They could either up the premiums or for the same costs
put an exclusion on steam and i.c. There would be no logic to this, but since when do logic and insurance companies go
together.
Geoff
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i agree with unbuilt, could the club upgrade their insurance to cover steam boats and ic, the cost of which per member would not be that much . I must ask did the club asked for the ban or was it the chairman or committee and how did they arrive at this decision, because this does have a knock on effect, because you are saying that steam and ic are dangerous, then you must have proof of this. Have you done any testing to back up these clams one way or another ? if so could they be printed for all of us to read. Yes steam and ic can be dangerous but electric can be just as dangerous, because if you have proof then on safety grounds alone they must be banned from every club in the country (yes , no) but before we do this some one in a responsible postion must do the tests to back up the ban
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I am a member of new brighton club as well as ellesmere port. Can i just say that to all that are going on about no-one ever seeing a boiler blowing up, let me tell you a little story. Late last year one of the ellesmere port members was working on a boiler and he bought a blow off valve from ebay. He heated the boiler up and it exploded, the valve hadn't worked. Instead of opening, the valve shot off and hit the lad in the face covering him with boiling water causing serious injury and severe bruising. But club insurance didn't cover it.
It's the Council that has banned steam and IC from new brighton, not the club. All the club is asking is that MEMBERS do not sail these boats as our insurance doesn't cover them. As for members of the public who have steam boats, there's probably no doubt they haven't a boiler certificate OR insurance. The club can't stop them as it is a public lake and it's down to the council to enforce it. It's not health and safety gone mad, it's common sense. I hope that mayhemmers can see this predicament that the clubs in. There are actually signs around the lake that says no steam boats, THAT was down to the council not the club. Don't lay the blame on the New Brighton club.
was this at the lake ?you say it exploded, did you see it ? as the boilers we use dont explode, they go at the weakest point and separate it may be an end cap it may be a gauge glass it may be a fitting , anyway the bloke was using an UN tested boiler so should not be covered, anyone one with common sense would test a new safety valve and set it up before fitting it permanently.
Peter
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I wonder if the club has banned Nimh batteries or li Poly charging or use as they are far more likley to cause harm ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4lNx2Wn6Oc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQheOtdCTjs&feature=related
Peter
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I saw the TV report. I would very much like to see how Mr Dean would demonstrate his badly imagined hypothetical disastrous boiler explosion without pre-rigging (damaging) the boiler so that his required result could happen. It certainly wouldn't happen with a certificated boiler.
The fact is, he can't. He doesn't have the required knowledge to do so, and is using utterly inaccurate hearsay information as gospel to further his own misconceptions. Had the case been in any way different, he would not have made the statement If he did actually try it, he would find that, with a model boat sized boiler, there would be a pop and a fizz and that would be the end of the story. And as for quoting an incident where the combined perpetrator and victim created the problem by buying safety equipment from an unknown source at the lowest possible price and then not bothering to test it first before firing it up.......... thats a Darwin Award candidate.
I presume that the use of LiPo batteries will also be banned because of their well known pyrotechnic abilities (story from the same man, probably in the same pub), and that, since speed is also a hazard, the Perkassa that was shown will have a suitable speed limit placed on it? Then he can start worrying about yachties poking peoples eyes out with those dangerous masts. It can go on and on.
The pollution comments have a similar level of inaccuracy, but did the smoke producing boat shown possibly have an oil vaporising unit fitted? Best ban that, as well, it and similarly fitted boats are spreading more oil about the place than any steamer would.
Badly built and badly maintained steam plant can be a hazard, mostly to the user, so rather than a blanket ban, the notice should have stated that users of such craft should be able to produce current test and insurance certificates.
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The pollution comments have a similar level of inaccuracy, but did the smoke producing boat shown possibly have an oil vaporising unit fitted? Best ban that, as well, it and similarly fitted boats are spreading more oil about the place than any steamer would.
That would suit me just fine, hehehehehe {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
Mark.
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Well I have just had 20 minutes of telephone run a round at Wiiral Council, They do not seem to know, and I gave up.
A. Which section deals with this pond. (you think it would be The parks Department)
B. Could not quote or reference me any Byelaws relating to this
C.The number they tried !! to put me to was always engaged..(but would not give me the direct number themselves..
You think they have had a couple of calls lately telling them what a load of Numptys they are..
I like the reports in the papers.. some say "As requested by the Club" others stating that it was a council decision. The press are great.. %% %%
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Looking at my Boiler last night I can not see that the safety valve could ever blow out if the valve failed to work.
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I saw the TV report. I would very much like to see how Mr Dean would demonstrate his badly imagined hypothetical disastrous boiler explosion without pre-rigging (damaging) the boiler so that his required result could happen. It certainly wouldn't happen with a certificated boiler.
The fact is, he can't. He doesn't have the required knowledge to do so, and is using utterly inaccurate hearsay information as gospel to further his own misconceptions. Had the case been in any way different, he would not have made the statement If he did actually try it, he would find that, with a model boat sized boiler, there would be a pop and a fizz and that would be the end of the story. And as for quoting an incident where the combined perpetrator and victim created the problem by buying safety equipment from an unknown source at the lowest possible price and then not bothering to test it first before firing it up.......... thats a Darwin Award candidate.
I presume that the use of LiPo batteries will also be banned because of their well known pyrotechnic abilities (story from the same man, probably in the same pub), and that, since speed is also a hazard, the Perkassa that was shown will have a suitable speed limit placed on it? Then he can start worrying about yachties poking peoples eyes out with those dangerous masts. It can go on and on.
The pollution comments have a similar level of inaccuracy, but did the smoke producing boat shown possibly have an oil vaporising unit fitted? Best ban that, as well, it and similarly fitted boats are spreading more oil about the place than any steamer would.
Badly built and badly maintained steam plant can be a hazard, mostly to the user, so rather than a blanket ban, the notice should have stated that users of such craft should be able to produce current test and insurance certificates.
Thank you for that malcolmfrary, what an erudite and considered comment. :-)) I wholeheartedly agree with all you have mentioned, but I would perhaps go a little further.
New Brighton Lake probably presents its own inherent safety hazards, but up until this moment nobody has considered them. Recently in my area, a gentleman drowned in three feet of still water in a tragic boating lake incident. By comparison, was this dreadful event used by any Tinpot Model Boat Chairman or Local Council in banning ALL activities on ALL similar recreation facilities??
The theory is the same although the outcome was tragically all the more serious.
In this sad case, although a decision made by a senior member of the rescue services was probably erroneous and ill considered, the resultant continued use of the boating lake was a triumph for common sense. A lesson was learned and life in general carried on.
If only that were applied throughout the United Kingdom.
Earlier in the thread unbuiltnautilus made a very good point about specialist insurance companies recognising inherent dangers in certain types of model boats (pyrotechnic display boats) and there is no reason why any other club could not pursue the same relevant insurance cover. There is absolutely no reason to ban particular craft from a public purpose built recreation area. My local lake has specific times for fast electric/IC craft and separate times for scale craft as well.
It would appear that this whole furore is the result of selfishness on the part of one particular group and gives a truly distorted perception of a traditionally peaceful pastime and hobby. :(( %)
Rest in Peace Rural England. <:( <:(
Yarpie.
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That would suit me just fine, hehehehehe {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
Mark.
I have to apologise about the comments on the telly about steam boats giving off more oil than electric, i can't see that being a problem. The bloke interviewed, Mike Friend, is not a member of New Brighton' club and i can't think of the last time i saw him there! There's more to worry about than oil at the lake, it's filthy with swan s..te and anything else that would make your body parts drop off! :embarrassed: :embarrassed: :embarrassed:
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Do not see why you need to apologise for something the News Reporter should have checked up on..
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All i want to do is go to New Brighton, sit in my chair, sail my boat(s), get some rays, and admire the view. There is so much upheaval, cliques and back biting there recently it's unbelievable. It's grown up boys toys for gods sake, nothing more. It does tend to spoil your day.
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Do not see why you need to apologise for something the News Reporter should have checked up on..
The news reporter was looking for a story rather than boring facts. More time spent checking facts in basically foreign territory (no football involved) means less time in the bar. Any apology on his behalf or for him would be as pointless as (insert similie of choice) because it would be neither heeded nor noted, but thanks for the thought, garston.
The shrapnel theory was killed stone dead on Mythbusters, when they abused a copper hot water cylinder. They had to totally seal the thing, remove all safety devices, and continuously heat it. It did eventually burst, found its way through two floors and a roof, and got up to 500 feet. They got up to 300psi before it ruptured. The bottom blew out, the building was demolished, and there was not a trace of shrapnel.
Model boilers are generally of heavier gauge material than hot water cylinders. The material used will tend to split at a seam and vent the contents. Generally, they never get anywhere near 300psi. There is a heck of a difference between 100psi with 500ml, and 150 litres at 300psi. Even the DTI recognizes this. A pity the hierarchy of the club are unable to do so, and relinquish their grasp on the "model boiler = hand grenade" myth.
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you also Have to remember that this is the club that members where moaning on hear about boats sailing fast on there lake a few years ago,because members tie there boats up at the side of the pond all day on small pontoons and don't like waves making them bob up and down.
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1150.0
peter
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Read to whole thread Peter best line was "Its such a pity we don't have a 'bringing the hobby into disrepute' charge and maybe a sinbin as well!!
I think that the red card should be shown to a few small minded individuals at this club.They have done much harm to the hobby at a local and national scale.
Shame on you
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Well this has started something big, i didn't know this had been covered on the telly as well, but as far as i can remember about the insurance cover, this is only for public liability, e.g a small child gets your radio aerial in the eye, it does not cover damage to ones boat, you have to take you own insurance out for that,
Now if this ban spreads to other Councils, then the art of the Steam maker will be lost, another skill gone and another nail in the head for the U.K.
And wasn't the law changed a few years back, when it came to testing Steam plants out, if under 3Bar, then don't need testing! Didn't someone invent the valve!
I would suggest that any show or evert from now on, Bans New Brighton Model Boat Club from attending until they do i U-Turn.
I am glad i left the club as i knew it was losing the plot 18 months ago R.I.P NBMBC.
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The news reporter was looking for a story rather than boring facts. More time spent checking facts in basically foreign territory (no football involved) means less time in the bar...
Someone here has a very clear idea about how journalists actually work. Unfortunately, science, technology and even politics are now foreign technology to the mainstreal media nowadays... <:( <:(
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"Unfortunately, science, technology and even politics are now foreign technology to the mainstreal media nowadays... "
Seem this is also the case with some of the club members
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HS93 , you have asked a very good pount , that guy didnt see nor is a member ,work that out
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oh dear oh dear
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Hi all
Didn't I read somewere that the "Lad" bought the "Safety valve" on ebay now don't get me wrong but I would
allways get such a critical safety divice brand new or is that just me? :o :o
Thanks Dave:)
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Just been informed the club has a new Chairman, infact the whole lot stepped down, but i think the damage has been done. O0
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Thats the first positive thing about the whole mess. The new Chairman can make a positive move by making an apology on this forum on behalf of the club then contact the council and the press to sort things out.
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The council probably has better things to do and the press certainly won't be interested.
Phil - Who has a lovely Midwest kit steam launch which has no boiler test or safety valve apart from the rubber tube that takes steam from the boiler to cylinder. Works well though.
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Just Watched the News report, The biggest load of Horlicks I have ever seen and Heard, An Alan Dean and Michael Friend (as quoted on the report), Alan saying how the boilers might explode and send shrapnel into your eyes !! or anything, with Michael saying how the oil which is used to lubricate the steam engines might pollute the water, From what I saw of the water last time I doubt it would make any difference, and in a lot of cases is probably the same oil that is used to lubricate the prop shafts on a lot of boats..
Just seen and been informed ,Alan dean is being nomiated for best dik ead of all time and will join his favorites the wannabies
you can view the the report here.. and is 16.20 into the clip
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b010nr0x/North_West_Tonight_27_04_2011/
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Well this has started something big, i didn't know this had been covered on the telly as well, but as far as i can remember about the insurance cover, this is only for public liability, e.g a small child gets your radio aerial in the eye, it does not cover damage to ones boat, you have to take you own insurance out for that,
Now if this ban spreads to other Councils, then the art of the Steam maker will be lost, another skill gone and another nail in the head for the U.K.
And wasn't the law changed a few years back, when it came to testing Steam plants out, if under 3Bar, then don't need testing! Didn't someone invent the valve!
I would suggest that any show or evert from now on, Bans New Brighton Model Boat Club from attending until they do i U-Turn.
I am glad i left the club as i knew it was losing the plot 18 months ago R.I.P NBMBC.
If you had been there ,you could have worked it out ,a child of 6 could ,its all down to power ,conmtrol freak .that was the last secretaries thing .power freak .bad news .ruing a good club ,and one of the older type stood up and said how disgusted he was .
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Just been informed the club has a new Chairman, infact the whole lot stepped down, but i think the damage has been done. O0
Anything verified on this situation? Obviously the incident has caused a lot of consternation locally (and further afield), so some form of confirmation would be appreciated out in the sticks. ok2
Whilst the situation prevailed there was a groundswell of protest, but now that it appears to be resolved, the interest has waned. %)
So c'mon you local guys, let's have an update please, the issue went nationwide. O0
Yarpie.
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Workin'on it........
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Workin'on it........
Very many thanks Liverbudgie, good to see someone with finger on pulse. :-))
As somebody mentioned earlier, we cannot rely on the local or national Press now .......... the issue has allegedly been resolved, so "no further Press action necessary". ;) %) :} O0
Hope all is well in Scouseland, my club were going to put on an 18th Century square-rigger pyro display at Latitude 53 (Liverpool International Boat Show 2011, until it was cancelled) and would have been in your vicinity next weekend.
Regards,
Yarpie.
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I have to apologise about the comments on the telly about steam boats giving off more oil than electric, i can't see that being a problem. The bloke interviewed, Mike Friend, is not a member of New Brighton' club and i can't think of the last time i saw him there! There's more to worry about than oil at the lake, it's filthy with swan s..te and anything else that would make your body parts drop off! :embarrassed: :embarrassed: :embarrassed:
looking back at this ,the other fool thought he would have more sense ,and he is your buddy ,,,,nough said ,even got it over here today at the Albert dock ,a couple of guys on big ships saw and heard .so there is now a big joke .
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Very many thanks Liverbudgie, good to see someone with finger on pulse. :-))
As somebody mentioned earlier, we cannot rely on the local or national Press now .......... the issue has allegedly been resolved, so "no further Press action necessary". ;) %) :} O0
Hope all is well in Scouseland, my club were going to put on an 18th Century square-rigger pyro display at Latitude 53 (Liverpool International Boat Show 2011, until it was cancelled) and would have been in your vicinity next weekend.
Regards,Yarpie the boat show opened today ,not as planned the first time ,there was two Brigs in ,t morra will be more ,but this is a warm up , as for the other steam . at the Albert dock ,there were a few comments made ,some one said this lot could have been linked together ,if y,get my drift . but the buffoon who really has done no good is not bothered .
Yarpie.
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Anything verified on this situation? Obviously the incident has caused a lot of consternation locally (and further afield), so some form of confirmation would be appreciated out in the sticks. ok2
Whilst the situation prevailed there was a groundswell of protest, but now that it appears to be resolved, the interest has waned. %)
So c'mon you local guys, let's have an update please, the issue went nationwide. O0
Yarpie.
When ive got a few hours ,I will up update ,because its doing the model boat club NO good at all . but ive got to word it proper .I was there
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All it needs now is the new Guy in Charge to explain the technicalities of steam power to the council officials who were conned into the action they took.
The media should likewise be informed and while the new Gi/c is at it he should tell the council officials that the swan is probably a bigger elfin safety issue
Ned
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All it needs now is the new Guy in Charge to explain the technicalities of steam power to the council officials who were conned into the action they took.
The media should likewise be informed and while the new Gi/c is at it he should tell the council officials that the swan is probably a bigger elfin safety issue
Ned
netleyned, good point. Having gone National, perhaps a full and unequivocal explanation should be given. :-))
By the way, regarding your nom-de-plume, does Netley Abbey and a washing line spring to mind? :D
That was a familiar name whilst I was in the mob. %) {-)
Yarpie.
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Hey Yarpie you are talking about one of my fellow Junoites - not all of us qualified from the university of Netley.
Geoff
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Hey Yarpie you are talking about one of my fellow Junoites - not all of us qualified from the university of Netley.
Geoff
A fahzand ajolopies Geoff!!! :embarrassed: :embarrassed: {-)
It was either the "College o' Knowledge" or Netley, and the precious liquid seemed to flow more copiously at Netley. (According to rumour of course). :embarrassed: :embarrassed:
And respect man, to all previous ships companies of HMS JUNO. :-)) %)
Yarpie.
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Yarpie, I dont have it from personal experience you understand, but anyone leaving Netley (other than by tunnel) was one of the few
matelots to have a piece of paper certifying they are sane. What did that say for the rest of us.
Geoff
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I think I know of one stoker who was proud of his "certificate", this on HMS TEAZER in 1958 Geoff. :-)
However, we may be accused of digressing the thread, so we can only but wait for dave301bounty's update.
Good to chat. :-))
Yarpie.
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Hi,
I don't think I've missed it, but has there been any response from the manufacturers of these deadly devices?
Perhaps a lost opportunity to put the professional's argument?
Dave
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Well down here Teignmouth has got rid of the boating lake and made it into a skate park with steel and concrete obsticles at least no one here will be hurt by a rogue rc boat ;)
Dave
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What a can of worms I appeared to have opened, (actually, it was a friend of mine who wrote to the local paper).This is how it all happened. I was at the lake one day sailing my patrol boat when I noticed the now notorious signs, Alan Dean was there and I remarked to him how stupid the ban was,and that I had just started building a small steam boat, he then gave me the exploding speech later to be given to the TV people. I told him he was talking utter nonsense and tried to correct him on his misconceptions, as he did not have a sensible answer he got quite stroppy and ended up just saying ' we don't want them here'. I left it at that and phoned the council the next day, I was eventually put through to the director of technical services, who are apparently responsible for the lake. When I asked why steam was banned, he said it was at the request of the New Brighton and Hoylake model boat clubs on health and safety grounds.I then asked if he had done any research himself, 'no' was the reply, he did not see the need as the clubs in question were the experts ( expert= ex is a has been and a spurt is a drip under pressure)as I was getting nowhere with him, I left it at that and phoned my local councillor, who wrote to me saying the matter was being looked into, as yet I have heard nothing more. In the meantime my mate Chris had written to the readers letters section of the Wirral Globe,not even expecting it to even be printed, and the next thing I had the press on my doorstep, wanting photo's and a background story. I was quite miffed as I had just got into bed after a 16 hour nightshift, however I obliged, forgoing sleep for 'the cause'. Things just escalated from there and the next thing I new was I found myself being interviewed by Auntie Beeb for North West News. I could not go in the morning when Mr Dean made his silly statement, as It would have meant losing more sleep. I met then there late afternoon, but they edited my bit to the bone, the other lot had more say than I did. As you may have noticed from the telly and press photos, my little boat is not even finished, I explained this to the media people but it did not seem to bother them. I would like to point out that it was never my intention to cause the chairman of NBMBC to resign or the committee to stand down, I am, infact quite stunned by the reaction to all this. I fully intend to sail my boat, which will be finished very soon, but not on the clubs 'official' sailing days as the last thing I want is confrontation spoiling my fun. I think the suggestion that a New Brighton model steam boat club is a brilliant idea, but one without petty rules and regulations, where members can enjoy their hobby withour getting bogged down with nonsense. when ,merseyman ( I think that was his name ) sails his steamboat there, I hope he will get in touch so I can go and have a chat with him. Finally, a request for a little help, The boiler in my little steam launch has an engine and boiler by Krick and is basically a Wilesco single cylinder plant (Germany's answer to Mamod) and does not require a test certificate, but to keep things right I would like to have it tested, but do not know of anywhere nearby who can do this, any suggestions would be most helpfull. My new Maccsteam boiler has a 4 year certificate but I believe a steam test still has to be carried out to verify the safety valve setting.Incidentally, the SWP of the Maccsteam boiler is 60 psi, but I had it set to 40 by maccsteam as it may otherwise cause the port faces on the SVS oscillator to lift. I intend to become a countrywide member of the MPBA and taking out their insurance, so will need to comply with their regulations. I hope this has clarified the recent chain of events, and hope to meet some fellow steamboaters at New Brighton soon, and yes, that is my ugly mug in the papers and on telly.
BZ
Nick
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Slight error, I was mistaken when I mentioned merseyman, after looking back over all the posts, I should have written liverbudgie, please accept my humble apologies.
Nick. :embarrassed:
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Very many thanks pettyofficernick for the explanation regarding this issue. :-))
You have nothing to reproach yourself about, its high time simple logic overcame the actions of certain officials and their unfair and selfish demands. As for Council representatives issuing restrictive notices without proper advice and research, ......... well, we elect them and should have the means to deselect them. (Today for instance). Smacks a little of the "Old boy network", a practice that we were all led to believe was abolished in the 21st century.
I take it that New Brighton lake is a recreational amenty for all, much the same as our local lake. Here, we share the facility with other craft users, steam, sail, scale, fast electric and IC (as well as pedalos and inflatable ball waterwalkers). We have all come to an equitable agreement as to when we use the lake, ie, fast electric/IC in the forenoon and scale in the afternoons (broadly speaking). Very, very seldom is there a problem. Probably our best consideration to others is that when our models are not in use on the water, we bring them on to dry land, a simple expedient which gives freedom to those still using the lake. Although this presents a further danger (errant children thinking they are public toys) we are at least considering the needs of others.
I hope you enjoy sailing your steam model in your local waters once completed. It's also good to note that you bring your model well within the safety parameters laid down, that also shows a committment to the safety of others.
From an old Chief Stoker, there's nowt so nostalgic as steam, whether the real 850 psi superheated type, or the scaled down version in your steam model. O0 Just don't forget to have the brightwork polished before the afternoon watchmen close up. %)
Yarpie.
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"As for Council representatives issuing restrictive notices without proper advice and research" - strictly speaking, they did. They asked the Model Boat club, who it's not unreasonable to suggest, could be considered experts in the subject.
I don't want my council tax spent on officials ringing up one person, then another, then another, then having a meeting to discuss the 3 conflicting sets of advice, then going and doing the research from scratch. You can't blame them for the local club being wrong. Or are you saying that they should always ignore the advice of model boat clubs ?
Anyway, to be more helpful, there is only one way you get this changed - hassle the local councillors. From my own experience in local govt, nothing makes more difference. Write to the press if you like but every council knows the local rags hate themwhatever they do so it's water off a ducks back. However, all councillors have to hold local surgeries. You can go and sit in front of them and make your case. If enough people do it then they go and poke the head of whichever department runs the lake and tells them to look into it again. I've seen this work several times as the big chiefs don't like the elected representatives turning up in their offices telling them what to do.
In this case, it's a pretty minor thing and they would probably be happy to give way as they don't care much about this. They save fighting for their pet schemes.
One thing you do need to prove is that if there is a problem, the council won't be liable. They have hyperactive risk assessors and legal teams. We were once advised that we shouldn't out anything on the web at all just in case someone read it. Needless to say this was politely ignored. :-))
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Certainly with the council that looks after our lake, the people to contact are not the councilors, but the council officers, either tourism and leisure or technical services. In most cases, they are the ones who advise the councilors and do the actual work. The councilors are interested in what they are interested in, great if your problem is in that field, less so if it isn't. A carefully nurtured contact with the parks department and a reputation for being sensible, no matter how unjustified, pays dividends in the long term, probably more than trying to influence a politician with his own agenda.
A good point that the local experts to be consulted were the actual club who used the water, in the case of my club, I would be well pleased to be considered as having a worthwhile opinion. Its just unfortunate that the local club spokesman had, and was unwilling to let go of, bad information.
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........... Its just unfortunate that the local club spokesman had, and was unwilling to let go of, bad information.
Thank you Malcolm. And also in this case, the "experts" had their own selfish and unsubtantiated agenda. The council involved either chose to ignore the 'other side of the story' or deliberately elected not to seek it. In court cases, both prosecution and defence counsels produce "experts" from the same field, that way, justice can be dispensed. Either way, this council has ended up with egg on their faces.
As I pointed out in my posting, public amenities involve more than one group, so their opinions should be sought as well.
I'm happy with democracy, however long it takes. As long as common sense prevails.
But who is the arbitrator of common sense?? %) I think he/she/it lost his/her/its job a couple of decades ago in the nation's headlong plunge into political correctness and blame culture. {:-{
A model boat club on the south coast is well known for putting on free displays for the general public, but is finding it increasingly more difficult to organise these displays with the incremental 'hoops' and 'obstacles' that the local council keep placing in their way. What used to be a harmless and pleasurable hobby is gradually turning into a Health and Safety dominated nightmare.
RIP rural England. <:(
Yarpie.
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"And also in this case, the "experts" had their own selfish and unsubstantiated agenda. The council involved either chose to ignore the 'other side of the story' or deliberately elected not to seek it. In court cases, both prosecution and defence counsels produce "experts" from the same field, that way, justice can be dispensed. Either way, this council has ended up with egg on their faces."
This isn't a court case. Anyway, who would put the opposing view to that held by the club ? The council have probably got better things to spend money on than arbitrating in disputes betwen (as they see it) odd bod blokes who play with toy boats. The point is that to an outsider, someone not deeply involved in the hobby, the model boat club represents a group of individuals who should know what they are talking about when they talk about model boats. If, out of the blue, they ring up and say steam boats are little more than unexploded bombs, then they either do something about it or look forward to appearing on telly when something does happen opposite a smug looking model boat chairman who says "We told you so."
>>:-(Sadly, today, the default position is to say no - whatever you want to do. I refer you to daytime television where every single advert break includes someone promoting suing people. I'd argue that if you want to do something positive for your hobby, drown a lawyer...
Phil
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........... Anyway, who would put the opposing view to that held by the club ? ......
Phil
Phil, somebody did .......... %)
But I suppose we must agree to disagree on limited aspects in this case.
I especially like your solution regarding the 'no win, no fee' rogues. :D O0
Yarpie.
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How much pressure is generated within a domestic pressure cooker? BY.
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Quite a lot. Bryan. I can remember as a child watching my dinner being blasted into the kitchen ceiling when for
some reason mum took the weights off. Possibly pressure cookers now work at lower pressure. John.
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Not going to dwell on a bloody stupid remark made by some-one ,who should know better ,but a lot of this comes about with the stupidity and selfish ness of supposed to be modellers .These people have done this club no good at all .The council may have egg on its kisser ,but there are a few so -called model boaters have now created a .not nice place to sail a boat without some-one asking , ;did you say anything at the meeting; .There is No doubt about it ,the Idiot who has caused all this ,never mind standing down ,should resign from ,and a compleatly new club formed ,if anyone has the nowse to do it .Twice Ive been ,out of the normal times because I dont want to get into any argie bargie ,and each time there has been questions ,off some-one ,compleat strangers . Now the thing should be laid to rest by some-one ,and start afresh ,my evenings are not to be answering the for the Idiot .shame on you .
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How much pressure is generated within a domestic pressure cooker? BY.
I recall mine being about 15psi. Being a "second generation" design, without a really major structural failure, if the vent vale blocked, the lid would start to lift against the clamping bar, vent excess pressure with a great deal of steam and drama, and convince the household to go to the chippy. Earlier models had edge clamps, I don't know about any extra "over working pressure" devices, but it was possible to start releasing clamps before relieving the pressure, which was a recipe for disaster. Not vast pressure, but a lot of volume, and there was a fund of stories about pressure cookers on the South coast heading out across the channel.
When learning about digital transmission, part of the course involved being told about how to open repeater boxes which were pressurized to about 10psi. There was a selection of scary pictures showing what happened if you started unfastening the bolts around the lid before depressurizing. Again, not a lot of pressure, but a great many square inches and a lot of volume.
I also recall the depot garage having a graphic poster showing the consequences of not inflating a tyre on a split rim inside a guard cage - bolts riven asunder and bits of mechanic all over the place. 100psi and a lot of volume.
Apart from the application of due caution when dealing with anything hot and anything pressurized, not much of the above applies directly to model boilers.
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Have just spent about 2 hours looking at these comments regarding the steam ban at the lake in New Brighton . Wouldnt have bothered ,but I was down there last night and told quite a lot of what has been happening . To answer a couple of questions on here ,the club members have been told NOT to talk to the papers .I was talking to a member and he has been elected to be on the commitee ,now he wishes not to be ,but the thing is ,every thing has been like an episode out of a soap on the telly .The previous Chairman has stood down ,but the Comment maker who caused most of this rumpus ,with his other associates still remains in his position on the clubs Commitee /whatever . This is a sorry state ,to think that this club was going places ,with a new lake being built ,albeit needing a bit more in planning but this was going to be the place to sail your boats ,models you have made over the Winter time . I Am a newcomer to these events ,so I do wish this to be sorted .The club membership seems to be suffering a little but things do tend to sort out .Let us wait ,never know what lies around the corner ,it could be worse.
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It could be worse YOU might want to sail a model steam boat >>:-(
Seems to me that the situation is far from resolved DON'T TALK TOO THE PRESS its a great shame that the advice was not handed out at an earlier date.
This rubbish could have repercussions for steam boat modelers all over the UK.
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Its a stupid ban, the Ban is not apparently legal.. You are also asked not to feed the Ducks!! well that really works doesn't it.. like you say the club will recover but should I wish to take my steam boat there I will..
In the Meantime Check out a few pictures on this thread from the 2nd Kirklees Steam Day, a progressive club with a Common sense approach to steam..
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=27868.msg298663;topicseen#msg298663
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The previous Chairman has stood down ,but the Comment maker who caused most of this rumpus ,with his other associates still remains in his position on the clubs Commitee
The club membership seems to be suffering a little but things do tend to sort out .Let us wait ,never know what lies around the corner ,it could be worse.
these numpties on the committee wouldn't be there without the vote of the membership, so they either must ALL feel the same, or are scared of the committee....either way, the club is doomed, very doomed.........
RISE UP AND REVOLT...........and get rid of the plonkers.
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Hello, I saw your piece on BBC NW Tonight and took notice of your comment about you being disabled etc. How can you work 16 hour nights and be that way? You have to be careful at NB about what you say, there's plenty would sell their soul for a quick buck.
I do 1 shift a week sitting in an office monitoring burglar alarms. I am allowed to do this under the permitted work rules, I was encouraged to do this by the DWP, they, infact, paid for the course and licence to enable me to do this. It is all perfectly above board. I have had several PM's from the some of the more sensible members of NBMC, who have told me that I am more than welcome to use steam powered boats, but not as a club member ( I am not anyway) also, I believe the signs are to be altered by the council to that effect. So as far as I am concerned, the matter is now closed. Many thanks to all for the support shown on this forum, all that remains to be seen is what will happen when I go to the lake with my boat, It should be finished in the next week or so.
Regards
Nick :-))
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Good luck Nick,
please let us know how you get on.
Regards
Richard
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MODERATION
Thread cleaned up as it was moving towards personal attack, stick to the subject or the thread will be locked
Brian
Global Moderator
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As a member of New brighton model boat club and sails on most sundays my hobby is to sail and build model boats and to make friends down at the lake,this matter needs to be put to bed from now as its getting abit stale and reading alot getting too personal everyone is entitled to the own opinion but enough is enough lets all sail together may it be elec or steam its a public lake ,and in 6 years of sailing at new brighton have not seen one as yet the lake is big enough for all,so lets have fun I will be at the lake on sunday and i just hope there is no talk about steam, or my head may just blow hot.
So come on everyone just put it to bed i wont be on this page again I will stay on my page ie warships which is a very nice section.
:-)) :-)) :-)) wallace :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
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Could I ask a simple question? If steam is such a rare sight on the lake why the fuss in the first place? >>:-(
Steam tends to be found in model boats in one of 3 forms:
Small commercial steam plants ,well below the 3 bar rule (too small to be a major risk no more dangerous than a speed controller catching fire seen 3 of them in one day!!!!)
Larger expensive commercial plants, cost a lot so owner has given it a great deal of thought
Larger own built, owner has given a great deal of time to the build the model tested it had it passed and insured the model.had tested
I have built a model steam engine and I have built a boiler which I have tested I have also built war ships, scale sail ,tugs, scratch ,built kits the lot it seems to me we are too small an interest group "model boaters" to be putting each other down like this.
I hope those who started the trouble continue to enjoy model boating but do so at the far end of the lake away from the majority of people on the lake who I am sure just want to have fun.
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As mentioned before. How long before a Lipo lets go at the wrong time? With increasingly high outputs it is
only a matter of time. The price is steadly reducing. So more boaters are buying. Its possible to wrongly
charge with bad effects. Im not against Lipos. Just pointing out the increasing dangers of misuse. Its not
steam that threatens. John.
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As mentioned before. How long before a Lipo lets go at the wrong time? With increasingly high outputs it is
only a matter of time. The price is steadly reducing. So more boaters are buying. Its possible to wrongly
charge with bad effects. Im not against Lipos. Just pointing out the increasing dangers of misuse. Its not
steam that threatens. John.
Shhhhhh John s, you never know who may be reading this. %)
Some club Chairman (or group) somewhere may consider your article on Lipos as grist for the mill. :o
Let's hope for harmony in our hobby, and pray that this was indeed an isolated incident. :-))
Yarpie.
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Point taken Yarpie. John.
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Sorry folks, cant resist it.
(http://s1.postimage.org/1tcmn3eis/No_steam_allowed.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1tcmn3eis/)
;D ;D :P :P
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:-)) :-)) Did you sail it though ! 8) 8)
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:-)) :-)) Did you sail it though ! 8) 8)
And tow a swan food dispenser behind it........ :-))
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Indeed. bit of a damp squibb though,the boiler could not keep up with the engine and it kept running out of steam. once the wind blew it back in, shut the valve, waited 5 mins or so for the pressure to build up, then another few minutes sailing, 'twas fun fiddling about with it though. I am now on the lookout for a Pipit boiler or similar. photo,s not very good, but there it is, on the water. %) %) ok2 ok2
(http://s3.postimage.org/l9qvytdw/20062011_004.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/l9qvytdw/)
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'NO PETROL OR STEAM DRIVEN BOATS'
Lets all get down there with glow fuel and diesel engined boats. Neither of these fuels are petrol so they won't have a thing on us.