Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Submarines => Topic started by: MikeA on July 16, 2011, 01:46:34 am
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because radar doesnt work in water well subs use sonar right. well why hasnt someone designed a sonar control system for model subs? the technology is there ,anglers can buy sonar depth finders on ebay. someone needs to do some hacking
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Correct me if I'm wrong Mike but the transducer for a fishfinder is fitted in the boat and the screen is above water, so if the transducer
was fitted to the submarine the information as to depth etc would be in the submarine - no way of getting it to the bankside where
you are without a cable trailling behind the sub or another transducer to send the info to the bank.
Geoff
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1. I think there are fishfinder with "ship to shore" option.
2. There are only old boots, shopping trolleys and annoyed fish in British lakes and rivers, not much worth finding at all!
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You've missed out the headless corpse's, blown safes, shotguns, handguns, stolen cars, motorbikes etc etc.... {-) {-) {-)
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I've looked at this. Adequate bandwidth was a fly in the ointment, but if we're willing to sacrifice a little resolution, and start off with a slow boat, it should be doable. I looked at the possibility of using DTMF chips (obsolete now, but still readily available and cheap) operating via microcontroller and amplifier into an underwater speaker, and using piezo transducers attached to the side of the hull to pick up the sound and then convert to something meaningful with the DTMF receiver and microcontroller onboard the boat.
I see no reason to stick to the PPM standard, instead a packet of data could be sent perhaps in three or four bytes. Perhaps also employ some encoding of data too.
One nice thing about a sound system, is you can use it in fresh or salt water. Also should be able to go very deep.
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We do use sound on model subs but only to locate them in emergencies. (Pinger with hydrophone etc. etc.)
I think that, as as far as control goes, that radio serves us quite well - fair range (as far as you can see) and depth(~ 4m) etc.
That may be changing though with 2.4 Ghz taking over and, as Andy says, maybe a need for greater depth.
So other techniques would be valuable but it is probably commercially difficult to develop a worldwide, "submarine only" control niche market.
Now there is a challenge for someone?!
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You're behind the times here, chaps...
We have a guy in the AMS who did all that in his 12' Gato twenty years ago. He builds all his own electronics, it's totally awesome to see this thing in action. It sends back telemetry via a radio link to a remote monitor on his tx, like a heads up display on a pilot's helmet of where the boat is, what level it's at and what direction it's heading...it also fires torpedoes, with the same telemetry system sending back information to the monitor, and the torpedoes can be exploded electronically via the tx. All done wirelessly via a transponder(I think that's the right word)working on several different frequencies all at once.
I have a stack of video of the boat in action which will be posted up on the AMS forum very soon.
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Well i can see some of you understand what i meant. i wasnt talking bout attaching a fishfinder to your sub but using the commercially available technology of a fishfinder, modifying it gizmos to act as a sound based transmitter and receiver. If you visualise it, you could stand on the side of a lake or in a boat. you could use an fpv system. put a mobile phone camera in the periscope.
(http://s2.postimage.org/1dt7v309w/Fish_Finder_with_Sonar_Sensor_7.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1dt7v309w/)
you would need to send the fpv video images by sound aswell. fpv is currently available for flight and people pay up to a grand for there stuff. So why wouldnt submariners pay the same to go 50-100 metres down in the murky depths. it would eventually be cheaper like all electricals.
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I can't say as I understand it all, I'm as thick as a plank when it comes to electronics like this...
But is a definite possibility to do all this...our man is an electronics guru, he's worked in the top end of the industry all his life and he's a qualified radio ham licence holder. He uses frequencies I never knew existed, and at the minute is experimenting with floating aerials to receive transmissions from his boat in deep water...not the average six feet of water, but really deep water. He regularly sails in a a flooded gravel pit...and those are deep.
I'll book myself an hour or so at the local library early next week, they have some really useful computer toys I can play with, and I'll get the photos and video footage sorted out and posted up.
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it goes to show what is possible then. if uk designed radar and sonar in ww2 then by now we should be able to use this technology to remote operate model subs. if this system was commercially available then im sure those of you who have deep enough pockets would jump at the chance to use it.
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I'll...erm...let you know...our man is currently being 'volunteered' to do something similar, albeit an awful lot less technical, for my boat.
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its allready been done :
http://www.tritech.co.uk/products/products-micron_modem.htm
just needs a micro controller to operate servos
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Quote "The Micron Data Modem is an exciting new development in the field of through-water communications" End quote...
I would just say that our man John has done all this...over twenty years ago.
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http://www.happynews.com/news/1012010/underwater-robot-swims-free.htm
and more
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he should have made it commercially available. he couldve reatailed these things at £799.99 lol
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He's not in it for money, just to make his Gato do what he wants it to do, when he wants it do it. It would be a real nice little earner, to quote Arthur Daley....
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Nikola Tesla had a radio controlled model submarine with frequency hopping working over a century ago. We all stand on the shoulders of others.
This is still a relatively unexplored aspect of model submarine technology, and with the availability of easy to program microcontrollers, that are tiny, so should be easy to fit into a small model, the time is ripe for more experimentation. Commercial systems, when available look rather expensive and cumbersome.
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I received this earlier from our man John, and with his permission, I've copied and pasted here for you guys to read.
It means absolutely zero to me, but some of you may understand what the heck he's talking about!
Hi to every one,
Over the last few months I have been playing about with low frequency for under water RF link to control a submarine, a few days ago I decided what about if all of this was joined to a piezo transducer? Yes, it can be done, the transducer in the water if it is held half inch under the surface it starts to make a whirlpool standing out the water about 2inches high, and you can see the code on the top of the whirlpool.
Hopefully when I get a bit more time I will take it a bit further and see where it goes. If you touch this whirlpool it feels like it starts to burn your finger, I know what you are going to say..'dont touch it then', but at the moment the unit is running on low power but I will hit it with more power and see if I can start a hot tub for the missus, but I don't think she will like the RF burns...
John
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nope dont understand that. Clever people like this who teleport to work! :}
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Nobody understands what he's on about half the time...
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So John is using piezo transducers for the transmitter. I'd considered these as 'antenna' for the receiver on a sonic transmission system but thought they may be a bit too modest power wise for transmission. Although sound travels much more efficiently through water than air. Piezo elements also present a somewhat different load than a inductor based sounder (capacitive). I was considering the use of NXT based drivers. These are effectively voice coil elements minus the diaphragm. You attach them to boards etc. and that becomes the displacing element.
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see if people like you and john were to make ma succesful fuctional system then people would ask you to make them one. i would. its not allways convenient to hire a swimming pool.
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Anyone considered the effects on pond wildlife in this ?
Could we be dealing with an energy source which is possibly disruptive to marine life? I know little of this technology but given the use of Piezo electric transducers as a transmitting source and the fact that it can disrupt the surface of the pond in the manner described, I am assuming a fair amount of vibrational energy is being dissapated, therefore could it be possible that this form of transmission could be very distressful and possibly damaging to marine creatures?
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Chris, you are quite correct, native wildlife could/would be put in distress by any amounts of RF introduced in their habitat.
I think I'm right in saying(I'll check and confirm this)that John is playing with this idea in his own test tank and not in open water.
Rich
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that had crossed my mind. but if sound was used then it would be no different to a dolphin or whale probably. not sure bout rf though. buts its test phase isnt it.
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I've just been in touch with John, and I can confirm that he is using his own test facility for this, so wildlife is safe and unharmed.
There have been instances though, of whales and dolphins suffering brain damage which has been attributed to the USN testing high power sonar in their warships, I believe off the coast of Hawaii in the deep water areas...these reports are as yet unconfirmed, as the equipment is still under wraps.
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How many boating lakes have you been to with whales and dolphins innit {:- :o {-)
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So we could be catching fried fish then!.
Len :-)
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Battered too, if you hit them!
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HI to everybody on the forum
I have been playing about with piezo sensors on low frequencys have managed to send out real time data as what would come out of your buddy lead on your standard rc tx unit there is a few people on hear who have said that could the piezo sensors harm the pond life but if we look at pond misters that they use in ponds in gardens i think i am right in saying that they use these where there is gold fish in the pond, so it cannot be that harmfull. Problem with this is if you go to a lower frequency you don't have the band width to send fast data, every thing has to be compromise as i have said some where before you have to look out of the box some times to find the answer
john robinson G7SCL
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its all clever stuff. i was telling ur m8 if ya came up with a good solution you could market it. i found this the other day its a underwater accoustic modem i think with a range of 5km if i read correctly. i read on another forum how someone had allready come up with an idea of using it. here it is:
http://www.tritech.co.uk/products/products-micron_modem.htm
i was wonderding if this technology could be applied to model subs. i think its allready used for ROV's
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it transmits at 40bits per second i dont know if thats good or not. and its 1km not 5 lol
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That's very slow. No way you could use standard PPM with that data rate.
I was thinking along the lines of 160 bits per second (two bytes of data sent every 100ms) using infra-red commands instead of ppm signals.
Getting my head around CRC checks, and how to implment that in BASIC in a Picaxe processor.
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can each command be sent by different tone? then could the servo positioning rate be sent via pulses? like the faster forward you want to go the faster the pulses are sent down in the water and then the faster the sub?
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I was thinking along the lines of 160 bits per second (two bytes of data sent every 100ms) using infra-red commands instead of ppm signals.
Getting my head around CRC checks, and how to implment that in BASIC in a Picaxe processor.
Isn't that a bit overkill?
Given the limit on the amount of data sent, might this be a better approach...
1/ Send a single digit parity bit per burst, just to check the general validity of the data. Easy
2/ On the sub, disregard that burst if the bit doesn't match. Easy
3/ If the bit does match, use the Picaxe to compare the current status of a servo/esc (however you encode it) with the newly sent value.
4/ If the difference is less than X%, assume the new value is true. You're moving the sticks a little
5/ If the difference is greater than X%, store the new value and check this against a future value. You've moved the sticks a lot, and this allows confirmation of the move
6/ If the next values match (within X%) of the "suspicious" value, assume this command is true.
Andy
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I'd put the Pickaxe right through the whole lot...
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HI Mad Mike
In reply to#30 you said that there could be a market for this the idea is Mike that if you could build a system for low frequency what ever it is and be able to use your standard transmitter that you are using now 27MHz or 40MHz or even 2.4Hz DC7 if you can use the buddy lead on TX to use code to transmit data to low frequency link to sub it starts to get cost effective because you already have a transmitter. Other point i would like to bring up is because most of you have aerials on your TX unit it is not the way to get through the water, because most of your looses happen when the signal from the aerial skips off the surfaces of the water like skipping a pebble across the water, but if you was to put your antennae in the water from TX transmitter now its a hole new ball game as i have been playing about with again with aerials which transmit but are in the water, a full wave aerial would be in air 33feet long at 27MHz but if aerial was put in the water it would become many times smaller and what you can do is put aerial on a float point vertical downwards other point is because of aerials becoming smaller in water your Rx aerial in your sub is completely out of tune on the front end of Rx unit but what you can do is make front end on Rx auto tune it self, and again this can be made to work because i have done it but some of these things have taken a long time to work out
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Is the smaller aerial owing to waters greater density than air?
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Hi subculture #37
Yes it is but it does change worst case salt water, swimming pool next, the normal pond water just to give you some idear of size of Aeriel in air at 1.8MHZ would be 167meters long which is a big Ariel which is a full wave but in water it would be about 10.1meters as you can see it is a lot smaller it does get interesting
John G7SCL
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I have been told (unofficially)that Stepen Hawkings is looking into this topic with a view to using the technology in his exploration of black holes and neutron stars,as for me I think I will stick to Futaba and a short aerial.No dead fish and no worries about lightening bolts with that long mast in the air
Just kidding guys
A very confused Donuts
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You're confused, Donuts? I haven't had a clue what they have been talking about all the way through!
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Hi subculture #37
Yes it is but it does change worst case salt water, swimming pool next, the normal pond water just to give you some idear of size of Aeriel in air at 1.8MHZ would be 167meters long which is a big Ariel which is a full wave but in water it would be about 10.1meters as you can see it is a lot smaller it does get interesting
John G7SCL
The word that covers all of this is 'velocity factor'. All of these great formulas for calculating the lengths of antennas are only valid in a vacuum - speed of light and all that. When you're talking about any other medium - water, for instance - the speed of light or any other electromagnetic radiation, i.e., our radio waves, slows way down. I always get a private chuckle over all these people who worry about the length of the antenna in their sub when once they put it in water all the calculations go out the window.
Over the years I've read many different ideas on how to communicate with model subs under water by sound waves. I've yet to see one work. In almost all cases it's the slow data rate that foils them.
Best of luck with your endeavors,
Dan K8XW
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So does that mean that rx aerial length isn't important in a sub?
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its great to see such an interest and the people who have the ability to comprehend a method of my ''what if imagination''. I have no idea half the time what your even talkin about ive only just got my head around what amps in relation to voltage is lol. if you were to need such a long antenna couldnt if be done with a coil of wire? it doesnt need to stick up in the air does it. The point is john that if you were to produce a successful and practical system to install in subs people would be interested. Even if it is currently an expensive thing to do. People with deep pockets are more than willing to fork out 5k on a jet engine and 1500 quid on an fpv system for planes, im sure there are sub builders who would like to be able to go 100 ft out 100ft down with there sub, and sum people would be more than willing to remortgage there house to do so. cheapness comes with development. And by that point china will have got hold of it and theyll be selling them on ebay for ten a penny.
do you have a functional system yet?
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So does that mean that rx aerial length isn't important in a sub?
Beyond there being a necessity for 'something' of an antenna to sense the signal, pretty much - no.
All of these finely tuned antenna lengths are OK for planes and surface vehicles where the antenna is out in the air (more or less) because in that case the speed of light is close to that of the speed in a vacuum. That being the case, the length as determined by the receiver manufacturer is 'sorta' important. But put that sucka under water - you're on your own, Sport.
Regards,
Dan
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This is all very interesting dialogue. Apologies if it's cooking some folks amino acids, but it makes a refreshing change from discussing hacking at fibreglass etc.
Commericalising a system like this is a tall order indeed. I'm thinking along the lines of starting very simple at first, maybe try it out on something extremely basic like making an LED flash in different ways depending on the command sent, and sending this data using audible frequencies.
That should give me a good idea of range, and whether the signal suffers from corruption etc.
For what I had in mind I don't really require the frequency rate of normal R/C, and wasn't intending on using the conventional gimballed sticks, instead I was looking at dedicated buttons like a TV remote. I was considering the use of piezo transducers as an 'aerial' attached to hull of the boat, so it acts like a large sonar array to pick up the sound signals.
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one of the features of that modem i put up was the fact it isolate and home in on the signal and cancel out the unwanted crap. like fish noises and echo etc. Even if the sub was controlled by ''hydrophonic tranmission'' you still need a live visual feed back. which in the end i feel is the Achilles heel. dont know how you would do that mind %%
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i dont understand the thing with the lenght or aerials. is john saying that on a typical open air anntenna it has to be 180meters long but if you put it in water it only has to be 10 metres long :o
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HI MAD MIKE
yes anntena in water is 10.1 metres long at 1.8 mhz yes i have a functonal systtem on LF band ppm data
JOHN G7SCL
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got any youtube footage :}
cheers
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hi mike the only futtage at the moment is the link for utube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7ActoYN3SE&feature=feedlik
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holy s#!t thats awesome :o
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HI MAD MIKE
Glad you liked it on you tube sub was made over 20 years ago just gone through refit of electronics
JohnG7SCL
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Very nice. Looks a bit of a back breaker mind you!
Aerial length and placement seems to be a thorny issue with regards to model submarines. I've yet to see a reasoned theory as to best practice. Most I think just copy what has gone before without understanding why things are done such a way.
Some favour running an aerial external to the pressure compartment, keeping the aerial length as as straight as possible. Others loop it round and round on a plastic former, some route them in a strange zig-zag pattern.
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HI Subculture
Aerial length can be worked out by theory but again aerial has to be in the water at all times not in a water tight box, because now what you have got is a aerial inside a box in air, which now has to go through another change through water the maths don't work. Any aerial that runs in a straight line laying flat has blind spots on the ends of it. The best thing is to turn it into a loop of like you said a zigzag pattern. But the front-end on a standard RC RX receiver is not tuned to match a aerial under water so no matter what you do it is not going to work the best that it can, its just suck it and see. I am not saying that i know every thing but i have spent many hours designing RF equipment
JOHN G7SCL
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hi people this is my son with the 12 foot beast after being in the trailor for 17 years
(http://s2.postimage.org/1pupar7ms/Image013.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1pupar7ms/)
hear is a pic strate from the front of the sub watch the deck cannon !!
(http://s2.postimage.org/1pv2j1zl0/Image023.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1pv2j1zl0/)
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Putting such a leviathan on a wheeled trolley is a wise move.
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its just to heavy to move 250kg+ so it heavy also i dont think it would fit in a car lol its adout the same size as a transit van in lengh
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Honest...it's massive, isn't it? If you put that in our lake the water would all get out...and you want to put that in the pool at Brighton Show next year?
(memo to Brighton Centre admin staff....gonna need a bigger pool)
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Be alright at Brockwell Lido. Alistairs big 8 ft Alfa gets a bit lost in there, so a 12 footer will be fine.
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does the deck cannon move?
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I seem to remember seeing this Sub at the Model engineer exhibition at Olympia.... MANY years ago, I'm sure i recognise the trolley!
hi people this is my son with the 12 foot beast after being in the trailer for 17 years
(http://s2.postimage.org/1pupar7ms/Image013.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1pupar7ms/)
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reply #60#61
HI Martin admin
Submarine was at Olympia London in 1993 took gold medal in marine class C1 thanks for showing interest Martin believe it or not i was going to saw it up and throw it down the tip but would have been ashame went into flying planes big time, but have now come back to subs been designing loads of electronics for the beast some body said to me a few months ago the electronics in the sub must be out of date but a cannot see people doing some of the things i did with this many years ago, but i said to the guy because the sub has stood still in the it does not mean i have i don't think he new what i meant
Mad Mike
yes deck cannon on deck does turn but also fires blanks the torpedoes that was going to go in it where a foot long where armed but thought it was not a good idea to put in sub as they did make quite a BANG all firring of torpedoes where shown on L.E.D. display on TX telling you which torpedo Head left the tube transmitter is 90 channels PPM code still don't no of anybody making 90 channel TX unit
john g7scl
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youl have to put some sailing footage on you tube. If you are making any progress on this sub can you post it on here. makes great reading material. what are you going to do with it?
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reply #63 HI Mad Mike
When Richard gets his act together he is going to put video footage of the sub on the water on you tube should be interesting to see what you think plus he has got loads of pictures that i sent him, one of the things i should have said before is that Nick Burge made the deck cannon for me many years ago, i thought Nick was a nice guy as just before i finished the sub Nick Burge and Bernie Wood came to see the sub before i when to model exhibition. On with so many electronic projects at the moment playing with low frequency video link for sending back real time video from under water seem to have that working now need to get on screen display unit inside sub this will overlay compass headings, battery voltages temp depth of sub, on to video picture coming back you said Mike what am i going to do with it I'm going out on patrol looking for targets anything that moves gets it only joking
all the best John
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this is just sounds so awesome. I habent built a sub yet i wanted to have a go at building an rov so i can explore the bottom of the pond. Apprently theres a double decker bus innit and some buildings :o but theres not much point if i cant get a video link. I was thinking of all kinds ways it could be done so i posted this link of possibilities and what ifs. looks like you have results so its all exciting (to me anyway) :D
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As soon as I get five minutes John, I'll pop over to the library and get all the pictures scanned and copied and posted up on the AMS forum, and also on here if Martin doesn't object?
I'll also see what can be done with that video footage, I'll need to chop it about into YouTube sized portions, and upload it in several sections.
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Hi John,
Was there a magazine article about it once?
Can you tell us more about her?
HI Martin admin
Submarine was at Olympia London in 1993 took gold medal in marine class C1 thanks for showing interest Martin believe it or not i was going to saw it up and throw it down the tip but would have been ashame went into flying planes big time, but have now come back to subs been designing loads of electronics for the beast some body said to me a few months ago the electronics in the sub must be out of date but a cannot see people doing some of the things i did with this many years ago, but i said to the guy because the sub has stood still in the it does not mean i have i don't think he new what i meant
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Indeed there was Martin, two in fact...I have both magazines here, I'll scan and post the articles if that's ok with you?
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this is a pic of the 12foot sub the first time we tryed it at charnwood waters the man on the pic is a old friend derek
(http://s1.postimage.org/1v1d1xxs4/Scanned_Image.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1v1d1xxs4/)
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also here is a nice pic of the deck canon that nick burge made for me
(http://s1.postimage.org/1v7sl6ix0/Scanned_Image_2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1v7sl6ix0/)
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Nice pics...well done, John!
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is it possible to link the antenna of the transmitter to the antenna of the receiever with a long but thin wire? will it work for deep diving? I though that maybe if i put all the radio gear in the sub as normal then trailing a long lead behind it to the transmitter to send the rf signals down.
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That sounds like an umbilical to me- don't need to bother with RF if you have wire running to it. Just jack straight off your trainer/buddy box, and use a micro controller to interpret the ppm signal at the other end.
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hear is pics of the 1ft turpedo that are fully working and go with a big bang on impact lol i never goot round to having the time to put them in the sub but they are going in now lol !
(http://s4.postimage.org/2whjqwauc/28072011126.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2whjqwauc/)
(http://s4.postimage.org/2whqd1otg/28072011129.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2whqd1otg/)
(http://s4.postimage.org/2whto4dt0/28072011130.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2whto4dt0/)
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Oh my gawd....you were serious, weren't you?
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Take them along to a show and committee members of a certain organisation will end up with an aneurysm! %%
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Take them along to a show and committee members of a certain organisation will end up with an aneurysm! %%
And what certain organisation could you be meaning, Andy?
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John just had a look at that deck gun - a beautiful piece of work. I take it if you sail at Charnwood waters you live in
Leicestershire. Have very unhappy memories of Charnwood and Bradgate - thats where we used to run the compulsory
weekly school cross country. But a lovely part of the world.
Geoff
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And what certain organisation could you be meaning, Andy?
Make an educated guess! {-)
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wow thats cool. what they got in them so they go bang? do they stay straight when there running?
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reply #78
HI Pugwash Geoff
Don't no weather you know town where charnwood waters is thats where i live sorry to here you have unhappy memories of it bradgate park is a nice place to go for a walk, don't no weather you no Derby Road playing fields thats where i do a lot of flying of model planes. The deck cannon that Nick Burdge made he must of spent many hours making it i remember asking him how much he wonted for making it and he said i don't won't anything just pay for the materials which at the time was not very much at all, he said that he wonted to see the sub finished sadly to say he is no longer with us which is a great shame thanks for the interest in the sub but have not sailed it for about 18 years now has been refitted with new electronics sub is ready to rock and roll but need to think about revamping trailer has stood still for 18 years also it is a major operation to move it about
JOHN
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Take them along to a show and committee members of a certain organisation will end up with an aneurysm! %%
he he he he :} :} :} {-) {-) can't believe you said that Andy tut tut
Nice Sub by the way
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I cannot for the life of me see why people feel the need to keep having these little digs at the AMS...would someone please enlighten me?
Rich
Hon Sec/Webmaster....The Association of Model Submariners.
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I cannot for the life of me see why people feel the need to keep having these little digs at the AMS...would someone please enlighten me?
Rich
Hon Sec/Webmaster....The Association of Model Submariners.
Yes its hard to see the wood from the tree when you are in the middle of a jungle.
You seem a nice guy Rich - I can see why they would want to make you the public face. I described my personal experience on here before and dont want to go into it again.
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who mentioned the AMS has someone got a guilty conscience? <:(
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theres a topic currently on chit chat talking about how the model boating hobby is dying off and how the manufacturing is going down hill too. Ive read the back logs MikeW's experience with the AMS and if they have that attitude to newcomers im not suprised this hobbys going to sh!*
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hear is pics of the 1ft turpedo that are fully working and go with a big bang on impact lol i never goot round to having the time to put them in the sub but they are going in now lol !
(http://s4.postimage.org/2whjqwauc/28072011126.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2whjqwauc/)
(http://s4.postimage.org/2whqd1otg/28072011129.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2whqd1otg/)
(http://s4.postimage.org/2whto4dt0/28072011130.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2whto4dt0/)
Membership Application form in the post...Secretary, Portsmouth Model Boat Display Team... :-))
Seriously, it would be a shame to blow the nose off of one of those fine looking torpedoes.
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who mentioned the AMS has someone got a guilty conscience? <:(
See...this is what I mean. This is what really miffs me off...I work hard on behalf of the model submarine hobby, I give up an awful lot of my time to promote model submarines in general, and often spend a lot of my own money to promote our side of the hobby, and all I get in return is sarcastic digs and snidey comments.
Al...it was obvious to everybody connected in any way with the submarine hobby who Andy meant.
I've had enough of it now, this will be the last time I post anything to do with submarines on Model Boat Mayhem. I will continue to do what I do on behalf of the AMS and model submarines in general, but I will not do it here.
Rich
Hon Sec/Webmaster...The Association of Model Submariners.
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Dont worry about it. its a post on a forum not bbc news live broadcast.
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Best not to rise to the bait, it only stokes the fires, dont let em grind you down, Run out of metaphors...
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Feet of clay.
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its gone a bit off this topic. does anyone know the conclusion to the original post? {:-{
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I think the bottom line with this, is that the chance of seeing a commercial system for the hobbyist is slim.
In a nutshell, if you desire such a system, it's most likely going to be a case of rolling up ones sleeves and building it. Model submarines is a very niche sector of the hobby, most of those in the hobby are satisfied with the performance of off-the-shelf kit, as it works adequately for most purposes even though the radio isn't giving its best performance in such an environment.
There is a concern in some quarters that 40mhz radios are going to become unobtanium in the future. Whilst I agree that the big Japanese and European companies will (are?) phase out there 40mhz range, it appears that smaller Chinese companies are stepping up to the plate to fill that sector of the market.
Whether these sets are as well made as offerings from other countries remains to be seen, although many folk are using Chinese built 2.4ghz systems and ssem to be happy with them. There is also an awful lot of S/H sets out there kicking around.
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reply#87 Unbuiltnaulilus
When torpedoes go bang the end of the torpedo's stay in tacked so are completely reuseable hopefully when fitted in sub i will tap into 140psi air line in main air tanks make a second air tank just to blow torpedo's out of tubes torpedoes will then switch on and run off to target when it goes bang it switches off drive motors
john
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when i was bout 8 i had a toy boat and it had a motor and propeller. I dont know how it worked but you switched it on by flicking the propeller it then ran until you grabbed the proppeller to stop it. ive never seen anything else like that anywhere.
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kind seems irrelavant but if the torpedo was fired out the tube the water resitance on the torpedo would spin the propeller and make it go.
I sent you a pm john
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HI All
These are pictures of two way telemetry units it will display individuals cell voltages on screen of up to 10 cells, auto detects number of cells its self , it will also display total pack voltages, it will display up to 100amps on load it will also give you watts on screen, digital readout of temps on the motor the battries and also the speed controller, in the menus you can change the displays and give you percentages left in packs, you can display R.P.M you can also go into menu and change when battries trip voltages are. to come on and give a bleep, you can change warnings on temp to what ever you won't and also change all parameters of warning to plane in flight or to boat on water meaning upgrading software when in flight or what ever you have got it in. Phil Middleton and myself are designing multiples of different units at the moment. Screen can be plugged into a computer usb and you can see all the data that has been logged and also on the screen on the handheld unit as you are using it ect , as you can see technology has come on in leaps and bounds in the last few years and no one or eney other company has developed eney thing near this yet
JOHN G7SCL :-)) :embarrassed: %% >>:-( <*< :P >>:-(
(http://s2.postimage.org/334serm90/screen.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/334serm90/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/334z0x084/screen_2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/334z0x084/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/3353zj1pg/screen_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/3353zj1pg/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/335fkah5w/screen_4.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/335fkah5w/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/335h7ttno/screen_5.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/335h7ttno/)
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bet you all look like this after reading <*<
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this stuff is fantastic i left u another pm john lol
have you managed to relay all this data back to the surface yet? does it use the low frequency rf you was talking about earlier in the post?
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I've used Eagletree loggers for some time now, which do similar things e.g. measure voltage, current, watts, RPM, temperature etc. etc. I've never used the telemetry option, I just use their micro logger device which records to memory, as I find that does the job for me.
A lot of companies are also integrating data logging and telemetry into ESC's and receivers, although in the case of telemetry, it's on 2.4ghz generally, which isn't much use for subs.
A chap who comes along to the Dive-in events builds his own radio sets with telemetry. He posts on here sometimes, so perhaps if he's reading this he can chip in.
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reply #100 HI Subculture
I do a lot of flying F3A patternships, pulling 3400watts using 10 lipo cells which is a lot of power you could launch plane just standing it on its tail but would not recommend doing it. Problem with all data loggers your seeing data after the event when you have landed your plane of what ever you have it in, because the unit that we have been doing shows you separate cell voltage on each cell in flight you can see which is the weakest cell in the pack. One of the problems with lipo cells if you take a cell down below 2.85 volts you loose so much capacity in that cell, depending on how much you take it below 2.85 volts and it never recovers idea behind unit was person standing at the side of you can see all data on main screen other unit on laptop showing you same data and data logging it which could be in the pits because what you have got is a complete test bed in the sky real time ideal for people setting up planes for competition this unit has been done for quite a time now
JOHN G7SCL
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I understand the need for good monitoring systems when you're at the hairy edge. I fly fairly sedate lightweight foam planes, the heaviest is only about 300 grams, so you only need about 100 watts to take that up like a rocket.
I fit the logger when trying new motor/prop combinations to see what things are doing. Once I'm happy with what i see in the logs out it comes, for use in the next project. After all the unit adds about 10% weight to the aeroplane, and what's that old saying about an ounce of weight is worth a pound of performance?
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My Graupner 2,4Ghz radio has built in Telemetry and reports individual cell voltage, current draw etc ( well as altitude, temperatures, signal quality etc). But its a proprietary system, so a generic one that can be used with any radio is a very useful.
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hi people its me again hear is some pictures of the antenna i made a wile ago that works underwater notice the bulb lights under the water but it isn't connected to anything in anyway :-))
(http://s1.postimage.org/2uxyjgrt0/image.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2uxyjgrt0/)
(http://s1.postimage.org/2uy1ujgsk/1_2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2uy1ujgsk/)
(http://s1.postimage.org/2uy6t5i9w/1_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2uy6t5i9w/)
(http://s1.postimage.org/2uybrrjr8/1_4.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2uybrrjr8/)
if you got in the bath with this in there you would know adout it lol RF burns sir <*<
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Very impressive demo, John!
(But I wouldn't dangle anything in that. :D)
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I wouldn't even go inside the front door, let alone get anywhere near the bathroom...
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wireless electricity !! say goodbye to batteries. Is the current flowing threw the water or does the wire on the bulb act as coil in a magnet field?