Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Steam => Topic started by: ooyah/2 on July 22, 2011, 03:26:58 pm
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I have just acquired this very old Stuart Turner Sun engine and as it's a bit before my time does any body have a picture in an old catalogue or some pics of this engine to allow me to refurb it and date it plus any data on the valve timing.
It's a slide valve operated by the lever from the squish plate, the lever is broken so a pic would help me to make a new one.
I am not sure whether the base plate which is curved to suit a hull bottom is original or one made to fit some body's hull.
The Sun & Star engines that I am familiar with, the base is flat with 4- mounting holes.
Any information would be appreciated.
George.
(http://s2.postimage.org/c3ap4yuc/Old_S_T_Sun_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/c3ap4yuc/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/c3iytpb8/Old_St_Sun_2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/c3iytpb8/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/c3r8ifs4/Old_St_Sun_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/c3r8ifs4/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/c3ujl4ro/Old_St_Sun_4.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/c3ujl4ro/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/c415qiqs/Old_S_T_Sun_5.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/c415qiqs/)
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Some time ago when I posted a question about a similar engine (but not Stuart) Malcolm Beak replied with a photo of a Stuart which from memory he called a Model B I think which was the predeccesor of the Sun and Sirius. Hopefully Malcolm will spot you post or you could P M him. I will try and find the old post. Cheers, Ian.
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Hi Ian,
Many thank's for your reply, it would be helpful if you could give me the link to your posting, also as I don't know Malcolm Beak could you give me a link to him.
Thank's
George.
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i think this is the thread Ian was referring to
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=30101.0
A lovely looking engine George, but not identical to the 1 Malcolm posted
Glenn
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Hi Glen,
I remember the link now.
This engine looks as though there are bits of Stuart in it and somebodys own ideas.
The rocking lever that operates the slide valve is too long to fit below the valve rod and I would think it should have a yoke on the end to fit over the valve rod.
The bottom end of the rocking lever at the swashplate has a recess in it to hold a ball bearing which is held against the plate as the plate has a score in it from the ball.
It's reasonably made but nothing spectacular so it will need a bit of work done to it but I like a challenge.
Thank's for the input and would still appreciate any further info.
George.
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After much scrolling through old posts I have found the one I was thinking of in which Malcolm posted a picture of a Stuart MTB1 which again is similar but not the same as yours. The topic was http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=18582.msg196432#msg196432. In another post in the same topic Bogs gave a link to assorted vintage Stuarts which was
http://www.stationroadsteam.com/stuart%20turner.htm Hope some of this helps. Cheers, Ian
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Thank's Ian.
Used the links but can't find the engine it's not listed any where but will keep looking.
George.
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I had noticed this post, but am not too sure what to say. Like George I think that this is a combination of some Stuart castings and a few different ideas. The valve operation by a face cam, lever and the valve return using a spring doesn't seem very "Stuart like" to me. In fact judging by the size of the spring I would have thought that the engine speed would be somewhat restricted. After all, this type of engine is supposed to be "high speed". Say 3000 plus.
Not very helpful I'm afraid, but another interesting engine for your collection.
Malcolm
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George, the links in my previous post seem to work fine for me and the second one takes me direct to a list of Stuart engines and the years they were made. If you click on the "1B" it takes you to the page http://www.stationroadsteam.com/Stuart/1B.htm which shows something similar to yours but not exactly the same. There is also info on the Star, Sun and Sirius. An interesting aside is that some were available with slide valve for wet steam or piston valve for flash steam. Consensus seems to be that you have a hybrid with some home made parts. Hope this helps, cheers, Ian.
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Malcolm & Ian.
I think that we are all on the same wave length, it looks as if it's cobbled together with bits ad pieces. The link that you gave me Ian shows a similar engine
with a few castings that are common.
The cylinder head is common,
Th cylinder and main base is the common
The base plate is similar, rounded to match a boats bilge with mounting lugs extended to bolt down on bearers.
Bore 3/4" x 3/4 Stroke.
The swatch plate drive was quite common on early Flash steam engines but the spring return is very poor design and not Stuarts.
I will be refurbishing it in due time , what do you think about making it to clean and losing the old patina, or get it running and leave it as found.
Many thank's for your input and help.
I will post it when I get it running which may be some time as we are at last enjoying some nice warm weather and the bicycle calls to be over the hills and far away.
Cycling is one of my past times been cycling for the past 65 years, quite a bit of success in my early racing years ( A what fond memories. )
George.
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George, one more interest we have in common, I once travelled half way around the world to meet a man who restored Ordinaries (wot most people call Penny Farthings) and to go to the Transport Museum. Dont go touring on bikes but I do still compete in time trials during our summer. Cheers, Ian.
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I will be refurbishing it in due time , what do you think about making it to clean and losing the old patina, or get it running and leave it as found.
I'd clean it and get it running.
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After having a look and a clean up I have managed to get this engine running, it will run down to 20 psi on air and then it starts to stall.
But above that it runs very well up to 150 psi.
I am not too impressed with the valve operating lever as it has a 1/8" steel ball on the swash plate which is grinding a groove and if not redesigned will cut it quite deep.
I will need to take of the swash plate and if it's Mild Steel I will be able to case harden it and make a gun metal pad to prevent too much wear.
Don't know how the lever was supposed to operate the valve as it was too long to fit below the valve rod so I cut it down and milled a groove to fit below the rod, it works quite well but I would like to make a yoke to fit over the rod.
Here is some pics of the mods, will now strip it down for re-furb. thank's for the help in trying to identify.
George.
(http://s2.postimage.org/2mb7sismc/Old_S_t_Sun_6.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2mb7sismc/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/2mbeeo6lg/Old_S_t_Sun_engine_7.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2mbeeo6lg/)
(http://s2.postimage.org/2mbjda82s/Old_S_t_Sun_engine_8.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2mbjda82s/)
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Ball race on the bottom of the link George??
Regards Ian.
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Hi Ian,
Not a ball race , just a 1/8" dia ball and it's cutting a groove in the case hardened swash plate so I am going to try a Bronze ball.
George.
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Sorry George, I meant replace it with a ball race on edge, Rolling contact rather than a rubbing one.
Regards Ian.
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Ian,
That won't work as the outer race of a ball race would foul cape and corner as the swatch plate would need to be flat and then the valve wouldn't work.
Ideally this should have a bevel gear on the bottom with a Scotch crank at the top to operate the valve.
I have ordered some bronze balls so will see how that works, maybe it will wear the bronze ball too quick, but I suppose if a collector owned it ,it would only be run on occasions.
George.
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The engine has now been completely refurbished.
New bearings , new slide valve operating rod, new brass steam chest cover and a stronger spring on the slide valve rod.
The swash plate had a St/St ball running on it which was causing a grove to be worn on the plate, this has now been replaced with a bronze ball and works very satisfactory.
I have replace the old cylinder lagging brass sheet with Aluminium, I am not a fan of brass as cylinder covers as I have never seen a full size engine with brass., it's usually blued steel or aluminium.
It runs very well and at 100 psi it fairly sings, I would say about 5,000 r.p.m. and vibration free even up to 150 p.s.i. in a short bursts.
I still havn't been able to identify the engine but still of the opinion that it could be a prototype made by Stuart but never put into production and could be the fore runner to the B1 and the other derivatives.
What makes me think that it's a Stuart experiment is the engine sump as it's very well cast but never seen again on any of the old High speed engines.
Thank's guys for the help in trying to identify the engine and I suppose it's dated around the 1920's just a wooden plinth to be made for it and a displacement lubricator and then it would adorn any collectors shelf.
George.
The engine in the original condition.
(http://s4.postimage.org/1pntoc57o/Old_S_t_Sun_6.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1pntoc57o/)
Refurbished engine
(http://s4.postimage.org/1pobv8yn8/Refurb_2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1pobv8yn8/)
(http://s4.postimage.org/1podisb50/Refurb_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1podisb50/)
(http://s4.postimage.org/1pof6bnms/Refurb_4.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1pof6bnms/)
(http://s4.postimage.org/1pok4xp44/Refurb_5.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/1pok4xp44/)
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Very nice restoration work. Is the bronze ball supposed to wear and be replaced after some time?
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Good evening!
Very well done Ooyah! :-))
Looks like brand new and unique! O0
Regards!
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Hi kno3,
I don't think it will be problem as the bronze balls are very hard and I don't think a collector or anybody else would have a boiler big enough to get the full potential from the engine and it's very easy to replace the ball if required.
I think that this engine will end up on a collectors shelf
Hi KB10.
Thank's for your kind remarks, it will look better once mounted on a plinth, I will post pictures when finished.
George.
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Very nice restoration George.
Regards Mick
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Thank's Mick,
Must say that I am very pleased with the result considering the condition of it when I first got it.
It's a very robust little engine and I am sure that it would take high pressure steam but at present I don't have any high pressure boilers or coils to test it.
The more I look at it the more convinced I am that it's the early fore runner of the B1 and Sun engine.
With the info given by the Members it's dated about 1920.
A shop fitter friend has made me a plinth from American Black Walnut so I am looking forward to having it finished and mounted on it's plinth.
George.
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That will look great in American Black Walnut George, thats what I used for the floors in Wide A Wake
Mick
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:-) Good evening!
It will look even better, smokong in a fine and long launch ,drawing lines on the water! %) ok2
Cheers! :-)
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Engine now completed and mounted on a plinth of American Black Walnut.
I think that this engine is a one off and is the fore runner to the early Stuart B1 and Sun engines and is dated about 1920/30 is the nearest that I think it was made.
Great little runner on air but as I don't have a test boiler at present I can't test i on steam.
The engine is capable of 5000 rpm plus.
George.
(http://s4.postimage.org/2gkbg6o2s/Engine_on_plinth_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2gkbg6o2s/)
(http://s4.postimage.org/2gkn0y3j8/engine_on_plinth_2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2gkn0y3j8/)
(http://s4.postimage.org/2gkrzk50k/engine_on_plinth_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2gkrzk50k/)
(http://s4.postimage.org/2gktn3hic/engine_on_plinth_4.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/2gktn3hic/)
The wobbly leg on first pic is an optical illusion.
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Duplicate post removed
Ken
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Very nice George.
Mick
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Thank's Mick,
Can you tell me how to cancel the posting that is purple .
I have hit the wrong key but blowed if I can delete it.
George,
Duplicate post removed for you
Ken
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Hi George, I think its to late now, when you post there is a small diamond shaped symbol on the right hand side,
click on it which allows you to change of delete your post which is only there for a short period of time.
Mick
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Mick,
Moderator KEN kindly removed my duplicate posting but thank's for letting me know about canceling.
Thank's to KEN.
George.
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Hi George, I think its to late now, when you post there is a small diamond shaped symbol on the right hand side,
click on it which allows you to change of delete your post which is only there for a short period of time.
Mick
Hi Mick,
Thank's for the info will try again George.
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Hello George & All,
I think that this engine is a one off and is the fore runner to the early Stuart B1 and Sun engines and is dated about 1920/30 is the nearest that I think it was made.
It definitely looks like a one-off fore runner to the MTB series, but age ??
Me also being an owner of a MTB-1 I started to dig on internet and in my archives.
Found following text and photos in Stuart 1914 catalogue:
"The enclosed type Single-actingTwin M.T.B. and the Simplex Engines (p.21) have earned innumerable
prizes and championships during last year."
"For use with flash-boiler steam the B Series of M.T.B. Engines has been introduced.
They are constructed entirely of cast iron and steel with forged steel crankshafts and nickel slide valves."
So my conclusion is that Stuart introduced the M.T.B in 1912-13 and the M.T.B-B in 1914.
If I'm correct, I assume George engine is from pre- 1912-13 !!
:o :o :-))
(http://s17.postimage.org/ecyjizxt7/MTB.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ecyjizxt7/)
(http://s15.postimage.org/g6of411w7/MTB1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/g6of411w7/)
(http://s17.postimage.org/pvtfhm50r/MTB3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/pvtfhm50r/)
There was an *anonymous* MTB-3 sold on ebay recently, went for £296
Really like the torpedo boat on the picture, anyone aware of some good scale plans for a similar vessel ?
Cheers & a Steamy 2012, Bjorn
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Hello George & All,
It definitely looks like a one-off fore runner to the MTB series, but age ??
Me also being an owner of a MTB-1 I started to dig on internet and in my archives.
Found following text and photos in Stuart 1914 catalogue:
"The enclosed type Single-actingTwin M.T.B. and the Simplex Engines (p.21) have earned innumerable
prizes and championships during last year."
"For use with flash-boiler steam the B Series of M.T.B. Engines has been introduced.
They are constructed entirely of cast iron and steel with forged steel crankshafts and nickel slide valves."
So my conclusion is that Stuart introduced the M.T.B in 1912-13 and the M.T.B-B in 1914.
If I'm correct, I assume George engine is from pre- 1912-13 !!
:o :o :-))
(http://s17.postimage.org/ecyjizxt7/MTB.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ecyjizxt7/)
(http://s15.postimage.org/g6of411w7/MTB1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/g6of411w7/)
(http://s17.postimage.org/pvtfhm50r/MTB3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/pvtfhm50r/)
There was an *anonymous* MTB-3 sold on ebay recently, went for £296
Really like the torpedo boat on the picture, anyone aware of some good scale plans for a similar vessel ?
Cheers & a Steamy 2012, Bjorn
Bjorn,
It was myself that refurbished and sold the engine on e-bay, sold to a collector who like myself feels that it's a one off.
The nearest to it is the twin output shafted engine which drives the valve from an eccentric from the main shaft.
As you know this one had a swash plate drive and it's thought that it is an early Cy Greenly design before being taken up by Stuart.
Possibly as you say a bit earlier than 1912.
George.
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Hi George,
Bjorn,
It was myself that refurbished and sold the engine on e-bay, sold to a collector who like myself feels that it's a one off.
The nearest to it is the twin output shafted engine which drives the valve from an eccentric from the main shaft.
As you know this one had a swash plate drive and it's thought that it is an early Cy Greenly design before being taken up by Stuart.
Possibly as you say a bit earlier than 1912.
George.
Yes I saw when you offered the one-off engine in this thread on ebay.
Sorry to say I was out of budget at that time... :((
Happy to hear it ended up in a good shed !
The anon £296 one I refered to above is this Stuart No.3 MTB:
(http://s16.postimage.org/xmlsxcykx/MTB_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/xmlsxcykx/)
Never seen the No.2 MTB (Twin output) on sale.
Only seen Logoman's (Miles) lovely Stuart Torpedo boat with the No.2 MTB engine in a Mamod forum thread.
:P :P
All the best, Bjorn
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Bjorn,
Thank's for your input, Miles engine is the nearest that I have seen with the valve operating arm although it is driven from an eccentric on one of the twin shafts.
The swash plate idea isn't a new one as some of the early flash steamers used this method but abandoned the design when they started using single cylinder engines with a piston valve venting to atmosphere without any form of silencing.
My Flash steamer with a Poppet valve engine and a silencer makes one awful racket so it must have deafening with out the silencer.
I guess that we shall have to let the identity of the old engine rest , unless in the future some body knows the answer, at least it's in a new shed and I think that the new owner wishes to build a boat and have it powered by the OLD FELLOW.
Best wishes for the coming New Year.
George.
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Bjorn,
Thank you for posting that image of the Stuart Torpedo boat, I've never seen it before. Is there any other reference to the boat in the catalogue.
I had dated my Stuart Torpedo Boat engine 1927, does that sound right?
The BL boiler and engine have been restored now, so I hope to sail the torpedo boat this year.
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4099/4934591330_c1019c229f_b.jpg)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3363/3607040402_f532c82c3c_b.jpg)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3355/3602588727_00c26f03d0_b.jpg)
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Miles,
Bjorn,
Thank you for posting that image of the Stuart Torpedo boat, I've never seen it before. Is there any other reference to the boat in the catalogue.
I had dated my Stuart Torpedo Boat engine 1927, does that sound right?
Sorry to say I didn't win the 1914 catalogue auction (went for £300+ AFAIR...), so I have only 5-6 scans out of it.
Though - based on the pages I have, there's both the Torpedo boat class C and No-1 and 3 MTB mentioned (assuming
no 2 MTB was the twin output). Hence I guess your boat & engine can be anything from 1914 and on.
Cheers, Bjorn
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..and talking about the swash plate controlled one, this one just appeared on Ebay:
(http://s10.postimage.org/fw91s4aw5/MTB_X_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/fw91s4aw5/)
So obviously did Stuart make a series with it...
Just wonder about the numbering...
Note the steam chest cover:
(http://s15.postimage.org/708di59qf/MTB_X_4.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/708di59qf/)
Cheers, Bjorn
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Maybe to conclude (?) the topic - just found this lovely article about Stuart enclosed high speed engines
by Ray Nightingale:
http://modelengineeringwebsite.com/Stuart_Turner_1.html
Enjoy reading !
Cheers, Bjorn
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Hi Bjorn,
Thanks for the link, most definitely the No 1MTB.
I changed the spring arrangement at the valve rod as I thought that it was a very week design, it now has a yoke with a nut between the spring and the yoke.
The steel ball on the swash plate has been replaced with a bronze ball which doesn't dig into the steel plate which I have case hardened.
All in all it was a nice little runner.
This engine is no longer in my possession as I was made an offer that I couldn't refuse from a collector, and as I don't collect engines it was better that it went to somebody that appreciated it.
Thanks again
George.