Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Model Boating => Topic started by: baloo on September 02, 2011, 07:32:28 pm
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Sorry if this is a bit long winded but,I find it quite unfair to slate different manufacturers proucts/kits/moulds etc,i was reading a "chit-chat" section ref deans marine.The comments made were i think out of order.Markjames1968 only asked about what kit do you think!!, and someone start slating off a manufacturer,and me personally am no expert,i build the kit i brought and if i loose my rag with the kit,i "STOP".Go back to the kit at a later time and carry on.,i have my own views and dont say things like i was treated badly and will never buy another kit from this manufacturer again.I have been to shows and people have said i could do better,well then go ahead.I`m no expert builder, and i build it to the best of my ability,people do not realise how much time & effort goes into making different models and how much money goes into manufacturing an item.I will go to shows and if people want to slate my boats off then do it,i dont care, but as colind has said, it is not the manufacturer it is down to the" BUILDER"so instead of slating manufacturer`s products,you spend the amount of time & money they put into building kits for people like us so we can enjoy our hobby.Half of us haven`t got that kind of cash laying about,so if you dont like something from this manufacturer then go somewhere else.So stop slating manufacturers off, because you cant fix the problem. Baloo
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Good point, very well made.
If you do have a problem with any product at all the first thing to do is try to rectify the problem with the manufacturer or supplier. If after talking to the companies owner or manager they still refuse to refund/ replace then it's the time to come on a forum and cast an opinion....
You do have the right to replacements from manufacturers if the items supplied are faulty.
We had a bloke the other day bought one of our LA subs, who doesn't really have a clue what to do with it. So far I've spent an hour and a half ish on the phone to him explaining what he needs.
Like it says on our local Chinese takeaway menu, if you like it tell your friends, if you don't tell us ;)
Andy :-)
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As a friend of a friend once said, "
"I can't understand these instructions, they must be rubbish!"
...and something about a bad workman blames his tools!
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I don't think I would really agree with that Baloo.
There are a lot of kits out there and quite a few manufacturers.
The degree of difficulty varies between manufacturers and that is fair enough. You do need a higher skill level to tackle one of the various models of Nelson's Victory than, say, a tug kit which is advertised as being entry level. That is because different manufacturers cater to different areas of the market in their ranges and it is up to the prospective buyer to do a bit of homework and get some advice on what might be suitable for their particular skill level. If you bite off more than you can chew then you are indeed likely to find things heavy going. A common fault is for purchasers to overestimate what they are capable of and be disappointed as a result.
An entirely separate issue is kit quality. If you lay out several hundred pounds then you are entitled to expect a reasonable level of quality control. Instructions should be clear and accurate. If two parts are supposed to fit together then they should do just that. If the kit includes white metal fittings then they should be sharply defined, needing just a bit of minor fettling rather than being simply a piece of unrecognisable s.l.a.g. (It's all to do with getting the right alloy combination which allows fine detail to be shown without suffering from shrinkage cooling). Manufacturers should screen fittings for quality before putting them into the box.
Plans should be accurate and preferably full size although some manufacturers are reluctant to produce plans which could be ripped off and resold on EBay and you can't really blame them.
GRP hulls should be to a good standard of finish and symmetrical but you do have to allow for the fact that they may distort slightly when removed from the mould although this can usually be corrected with a bit of attention from a hair dryer providing that the deck which is supposed to fit into the top of the hull is itself accurate.
Kit manufacturers do have to make some compromises to produce a commercially viable offering. This might include increasing the beam or draught over true scale to ensure that the model will perform satisfactorily on the pond, usually without significant effect on the visual appearance of the model. If you want 100% scale accuracy then scratch build it yourself and accept the challenges that brings.
Purchasers should be prepared to read, digest and understand the instructions before reaching for the knife and glue. Many don't. A model boat kit is not a flat screen TV which you just take out of the box and plug in to the nearest socket. It requires some thought and understanding before launching into the construction process.
So there are implicit obligations on both sides to the transaction and comments on whether one manufacturer is 'better' than another should be made with that in mind and on a purely factual basis.
My experience is that quality can vary, not just between manufacturers but within the range of an individual manufacturer. Some modellers can accommodate these variations better than others which explains some of the recent comments made on the Forum.
Colin
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I knew I would agree with you one day Colin, well said. (http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p8/DickyD_photos/drinking25.gif)
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I knew I would agree with you one day Colin, well said. (http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p8/DickyD_photos/drinking25.gif)
Agree.
Its the frustration at getting the run around and not getting anywhere, that causes people to vent their discontent on this forum.
After all, commonsense tells me that they have a legitimate "beef" and just want it fixed. O0 O0 O0 O0
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I agree you should try to sort problems wih the manufacturer/seller first, however...
but as colind has said, it is not the manufacturer it is down to the" BUILDER"so instead of slating manufacturer`s products,
Where do you stop with that train of thought, if you let kit manufacturers sell good that basically aren't fit for purpose, where do you stop? You wouldn't buy a car where the doors didn't fit, or if you turned up and the three were flat you'd be pretty pi$$ed wouldn't you?
Surely the idea of buying a kit is that you dot have to make bits, if you want to put that much effort into it surely you'd do a scratch build?
I'm saying this as someone who hasn't bought a deans kit or any other for that matter, and as someone who modelling skills are really not up to much, I accept my models will never be masterpieces.
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I agree you should try to sort problems wih the manufacturer/seller first, however...
Where do you stop with that train of thought, if you let kit manufacturers sell good that basically aren't fit for purpose, where do you stop? You wouldn't buy a car where the doors didn't fit, or if you turned up and the three were flat you'd be pretty pi$$ed wouldn't you?
Surely the idea of buying a kit is that you dot have to make bits, if you want to put that much effort into it surely you'd do a scratch build?
I'm saying this as someone who hasn't bought a deans kit or any other for that matter, and as someone who modelling skills are really not up to much, I accept my models will never be masterpieces.
I take it you have never built a kit car then ?
If you buy a car from a show room yes the doors should fit , but we are talking about kits I for one don't build many kits But i have some to build now and as long as the materials are good and they have not been cut to short and the plans are ok then you have a kit it is when you have to start replacing large proportions of the kit then it is not right.
I also think some people have built Airfix type kits when they where young then go out and but a model boat *KIT* and find it needs a different set of skills, I think it might be an idea to start calling them something other than *Boat Kit* like boat Package, I think the reason why you get so many un built kits these days on ebay is because it has always been the same , buy a kit open it get frightend off and put in loft,
I for one like the problem solving, it makes the build more interesting as it is me versus the kit.
peter
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It is replacing large portions of the kit I mean was wrong, as with anything it's hard to describe exactly what's acceptable and what's not, it's the comments that if a model turns out badly it MUST be the modellers fault that gets me going, not everyone builds museum pieces, but people seem to think it couldn't possibly the manufacturers fault, I'm sure there are both good and bad incidents with customer service and kit quality. I've had 2 extremes of service from my loam buell dealer, from incredibly helpful and exceptional service to absolute crap, rude didn't want to know a thing.
2 sides to all companies, it's not always the manufacturers fault (I'm sure they could send me a perfect kit and Id still mess I up) but you can't generalise and say it's all the modellers fault either. As for a kit car, no, my dad has and you can see the bodywork isn't symetrical, I have however built a bike...
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I think Colin's perception is very reasonable - well versed, accurately put, and without bias.
We are all entitled to opinion and often see things differently, a bit like backsides really, we've all got one - some exude aroma different to others, but how offending the smell is, is down to opinion!
I have a Dean's kit that has been put on hold through lack of experience, I'm very much a novice and have found some of the plans/diagrams and certainly the instructions both a tad misleading, and not easy to understand, but I really like the finished model and am determined to do it justice.
Some of the white metal parts are awful and serve only as as guide to scratch building replacements, even the photos on the available cd are baffling in as much they include varied changes during the prototype stages, with no indication of which photo defines the accepted final assembly method . They are certainly NOT kits for a novice, but do offer a fantastic range of model that no other manufacturer produces, always found them to be as friendly and helpful over the phone as you would expect, yet when parting with cash you are fully entitled without question, to receive items as described and fit for purpose and that can be assembled without rework or modification needed to overcome inherent defects. We have been a 'self assembly flat pack' society for some time now.
Perhaps the vast range of models may be Dean's Achilles heel, perhaps too much time and cost into constant development of new models, without the infrastructure or finance for ensuring total quality component production and proven user friendly script.
Somethings are learned the hard way - I'll do it for the experience and the challenge, it should make a really nice model, time will tell!
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I fully agree with Colin, a nice balanced view :-))
But when buying goods from a shop or manufacturer, they should be fit for purpose, they should be of a quality you expect. Regardless of whether you're an expert scratch builder, or a novice kit builder, you should receive in the box exactly what you expect to be in there. You shouldn't have mis-matched parts, shoddy fittings, unreadable or undecipherable plans and instructions, 2 halves of a hull that blatantly don't fit together without major surgery.
If the kit manufacturers can't be bothered to quality control their products and make sure the buyer is happy with the product, they deserve bad publicity in my opinion, not to mention the loss of future trade......
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I think if people feel justified to slate manufacturers they will, just to get whatever is bothering them of their chest.
But as an avid modeler who builds from kits,also scratch builds I think it a bit unfair sometimes as regards white metal fittings etc.
If the supplier had to 100% check every item the cost of the model would go up, and most would replace unusable parts anyway
regarding ( new models ) to the manufacturers lists.
I think they have got to introduce new models for the up and coming club members & boat enthusiasts who want something
different than the same old same old. they need to anyway to be competitive.
Without them some people would never have a boat to sail.
john
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John,
Disagree.
Nige has got it right.
Think about it.
There was a time when all manufactures checked and tested their product before selling and returns were unheard off. There was pride in the product. O0 O0
Then the bean counters got involved. <:( <:(
Their philosophy is send them all out the way they are, if there is anything wrong the customer will bring it back or let you know. >>:-(
That way you only replace those that scream the loudest, huge savings and bigger profits as less overheads, no inspectors etc etc.
The customer is now the quality Inspector. <:( <:(
Bottom line those who accept these second rate standards lower the quality standards for all. O0 O0
So to use the topic title, keep "slating manufacturers" and hopefully they will lift their game.
After all it is your money.
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John,
Disagree.
Nige has got it right.
Think about it.
There was a time when all manufactures checked and tested their product before selling and returns were unheard off. There was pride in the product. O0 O0
Then the bean counters got involved. <:( <:(
Their philosophy is send them all out the way they are, if there is anything wrong the customer will bring it back or let you know. >>:-(
That way you only replace those that scream the loudest, huge savings and bigger profits as less overheads, no inspectors etc etc.
The customer is now the quality Inspector. <:( <:(
Bottom line those who accept these second rate standards lower the quality standards for all. O0 O0
So to use the topic title, keep "slating manufacturers" and hopefully they will lift their game.
After all it is your money.
How do you get Bean Counters in a one man Business ?
PETER
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Peter, Who's the one man business? certainly not Dean's.
Tony.
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I have the greatest respect for manufacturers who design and build a product, then put it out there for all to examine, we have been making a mold for one of our square rigged sailing ships over the last six weeks and have yet to produce a single decent hull out of it! We would be happy to apply a bit of filler to the hull to rectify the problem, however, a manufacturer cannot afford to let something like this through their quality control.
I do not know for sure, but I would expect kit production in this day and age to be fairly low production runs, in the case of Deans Marine they have a large number of kits in production, while Precedent, for example have two versions of two models only. A kit will make a decent replica of the original with work, technology is catching up in the hobby, but do we want a model that drops out of the box, screws together and is in the water in a weekend or do we want a 'project'. There is room on the market for both, and both are available, you pays your money and takes your choice.
I used to be driven by feedback from my customers regarding which models to stock,which ones did not result in moans and groans. sadly this resulted in being SO selective in the models stocked, I was afraid to put anything on the shelf. Only goes to prove the old adage "The customer is always right" or maybe not.....
Try scratchbuilding, any cockups, please refer to the builder :-)
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There was a time when all manufactures checked and tested their product before selling and returns were unheard off. There was pride in the product. O0 O0
Then the bean counters got involved. <:( <:(
And about the same time, the customers started to expect miracles for no money. How many people REALLY are happy to pay more for a better quality item ? And I mean would put thier money where there mouth is, not just say they would and do something different.
An example: There is a thread running elsewhere on this forum about the partwork for HMS Hood. Having seen the Bismark kit (My Dad is building it), the parts are generally very good but more importantly, the instructions are very detailed. The downside is that this kit costs a lot of money. It has too, someone had to build the kit and photograph every stage. Yet every boat kit I've built has come at best with a few sheets of paper with some drawings and dense text. The best was the Metcalf mouldings River Star and even that set wouldn't have come close the Bismark set.
In the model railway world, there have been people throwing tantrums for years about the quality of trains for sale. Now the quality has improved imesurably and they are all complaining that the cost has gone up.
Yes there are duff kits and duff bits in kits but none of the things we buy are high volume products. The people who make them are often small businesses. If there is something wrong then the first stop (IMHO) should be the manufacturer who more often then not will put it right. No-one should rant on this, or any other forum, until they have at least given the guy a chance to make good. In my experience, none of the kit makers want to produce a bad product. They actually love what they do and want to see thier kits on the water, yet many talk as though they were evil businesses only out to make a quick buck. If they were the case I think they would be in a slightly more lucrative field !
Builders often expect a kit to be easier to build than they think. None of our models go together as well as an Airfix Spitfire yet that's the level many modellers struggle with. The cost of a fully injection moulded battleship kit doesn't bear thinking about though. Deans Marine tell some hillarious tales about some of the questions they receive. One guy filled the bottom of his boat with concrete because the instructions said to cement the parts together !
At the end of the day, we can vote with our wallets. If you don't like soemthing, don't buy it. That's a good reason to go and collect your kits, or at least have a good look in the box at a show. Perhaps even talk to people who have built the kit you are looking at, not people who haven't. There are many people on this list who would be delighted to see some manufacturers go bust so perhaps we should let them have thier way. After all, what this hobby needs is less people making boat kits.
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WELL PUT. Mass produced, low value product has flooded the market in recent years, anyone who has encountered these models can be sure of one thing, they are predominantly junk. There are build threads elswhere regarding Seaport Tugs, mostly being rebuilt to an acceptable standard. Fast models at the £40 to £60 bracket suffer from an excessive amount of burned out motors, pod drive models rust out........
Support your specialist suppliers of decent models, or you will soon be left with nothing but far eastern imported tat.
Here endeth the lesson.
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How many people REALLY are happy to pay more for a better quality item ? And I mean would put thier money where there mouth is, not just say they would and do something different.
I would for one...would rather spend £1000.00 ( which I have done so in a round about way on four occasions) for a Speedline model lifeboat than ever I would for a model that is quite clearly below par and a quarter of the price.
I am just amazed that with all the knocking that a certain manufacturer gets on this and other sites, they don't improve their quality control............instructions and plans.it wouldn't take a lot to make these kits very good products.........and it is as simple as that. They have wonderful variety of product, just a very poor quality control................
Other kit manufacturers have done it.....including Billing who were notorious for lousy instructions and poor quality timber........so if they can why can't others.
It's not rocket science.
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Perhaps some of the whingy woo's should recall that quite recently one noted kit manufacturer had to get a "propper" job to put bread on the family table? Some of the specialist single "Fittings" cost a quarter the price of a cheap kit. Good ole joe public, more bangs per buck ....... again.
Been a bit of gum bashing about e-bay prices when selling ones pride and joy but certainly no complains when Eddie's cheap and cheerfuls are selling at overated prices.
Regards Ian
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Following this thread, but from a slightly different viewpoint...as a "scratchbuilder" of models with home-made GRP hulls I've always taken an interest in the hulls (GRP, not vacform) produced by the kit manufacturers.
Things that "take my eye"....how many hulls can one mould produce before detail becomes a bit obscured? I suppose that in theory it should run ad-infinitum, but observing the "real world" disproves that. So as a follow-on, is it possible that some manufacturers continue to use moulds that are past their best, probably euphemistically called an economy measure.
Then comes a query about hull thickness. Again, observing "identical" hulls from the same manufacturer I note that "early" hulls are generally slightly stiffer, more robust etc. than later hulls that verge on the flimsy/wobbly side.
I appreciate that a mould has to be pretty stiff, even when only one hull out of it is projected. But is there a consensus as to just how thick a hull should be? I'm talking about models between say 4 and 7 feet long. I've seen commercially made hulls in this bracket that are really not much more than 1/16" thick...if that much. So not much "built-in" stiffness. My own hulls tend to go in the opposite direction and are probably over-thick (like the builder, perhaps)...but they can withstand massive impacts from the "keep death off the water" brigade. BY.
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To add my 2 bits worth,We live today in a society that wants it fast, cheap & yesterday, sorry folks the world still does not work that way.Quality costs money & time. From experience I have found that people will buy off the internet for a better price & then come to me for the opscure piece that the cherry picker on the net will never sell because there is not enough demand or profit in it for him/her. This ultimately leads to lack of service & "what do you mean you have to special order it" We need the criticism on here to draw our attention to certain shortfalls by some suppliers & manufacturers. I have found for instance that Billings instructions are less than adequate ( my opinion), however I find the kits are very good quality & with a little patience on my part I can figure things out,I would say some may figure it out faster than me & others not at-all. We have got lazy in general & want all our problems solved for us. On the other side of the coin manufacturers need in many cases to up their game & improve the quality & service. Even on this forum I see remarks like "it is better but it costs more" that is precisely why it costs more because it is better.we must all do due diligence in our buying & not spend our hard earned money with the rip off artists that abound both on & off the net. It is still a buyer beware world out there. Paying more does not allways mean better quality but in general it helps. Always give the supplier the chance to rectify the perceived problem or shortfall, we all make mistakes, if they deal with the issue in a satisfactory way continue to deal with them, if not lose their phone #s. Mick B. PS. Try to figure out how many hours a day Martin at Westbourne, Malcolm @ Cornwall or Dave @ ACTion spend on the phone or answering emails & do not get a cent for their time( the guy in china cant even speak your language)we would be most upset if they failed to talk to us & in a short space of time too.
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How do you get Bean Counters in a one man Business ?
PETER
They can be consultants/consulted, don't they pay taxes, also there are always exceptions to any rule. O0 O0
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There are a lot of plus and minus in the commentary to date.
However, I recall that in the main, "slating manufacturers" comments occurred after the 'poster' attempted to get the problem resolved with the manufacturer, but with no success.
Generally a good rule of thumb is, if you do not get the response you want, then your instructions were wrong. The example of the boat being filled with concrete (cement) illustrates this as the instruction was vague.
In the main, it is agreed that we should and are prepared to pay extra for quality but it is where that quality, 'in other words value for money', is lacking that has led to adverse commentary, and rightly so. No feedback no improvement.
Reputable producers comment, had I known I would have fixed it. It is those that get the feedback but do nothing that is concerning, hence the "slating".
As has been pointed out, other manufacturers have lifted their game.
Reasons why others haven't/can't such as bread on the table etc etc etc are only excuses not to act.
After all it is the manufacturer who wants me to part with my hard earned cash for what?? So convince me why I should buy your product.
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Generally a good rule of thumb is, if you do not get the response you want, then your instructions were wrong. The example of the boat being filled with concrete (cement) illustrates this as the instruction was vague.
Or it illustraites a beginner trying a kit far too advanced for him. Cementing two plastic parts together is something most modellers would do without thinking. It's a common enough term for plastic glue thanks to Airfix.
For my money I want good basic instructions. I don't need to be told how to use glue unless a really specialist product normally used by NASA is required. Some people do though but to produce enough information for them would double or treble the price of the kit. At which point, people say it costs too much.
It must be very difficult to assess the abilities of a potential builder if you are a kit maker talking to them over the phone. Even harder to say "Sorry, you don't have the skills to build this model.".
Phil
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This indicates there should be some kind of standard system that all model boat manufacturers signed up to. Indications could include such things as level of difficulty, material of hull manufacture etc.
Instead it is too late when the beginner has received a parcel which contains something far more difficult than his/her capabilities.
The major manufacturers (eg Graupner) already operate such systems on their own basis, but not to a common standard.
My thoughts,
Tony.
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Generally a good rule of thumb is, if you do not get the response you want, then your instructions were wrong. The example of the boat being filled with concrete (cement) illustrates this as the instruction was vague.
Or it illustraites a beginner trying a kit far too advanced for him. Cementing two plastic parts together is something most modellers would do without thinking. It's a common enough term for plastic glue thanks to Airfix.
it even says on the tube of Humbrol glue "Cement"
http://www.airfix.com/humbrol-paints-and-accessories/accessories/glues-and-adhesives/ (http://www.airfix.com/humbrol-paints-and-accessories/accessories/glues-and-adhesives/)
so what would you prefer to have in the instructions...?? >>:-(
well said Tony.... :-)) and a few others have also made very good comments... including my fellow Colin :-))
every manufacture of the world has Easy and Hard kits to build... some used to put stars by the side of the products, one star for easy and 5 stars for difficult, this seams to have disappeared...
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On APS plans there is/was a star grading system for beginners to guru status builders, problem being, who decides? To emphasize Phils posting, a few (quite) years ago one of my neighbours asked if I could have a look at a kit he'd bought. Scattered over the dining table was the contents of a box marked "Billings Santa Maria" and one of the problems he was having was understanding the words Bow and Stern. "Oh, you need to know technical terms about boats? I can put an Airfix kit together in about half an hour"
The above was thirty years ago and the "Pupil" was in his early twenties. Abilities and aspirations are chasams apart.
At best, most of British kit manufacturers are virtually cottage industries ...... When compared to the likes of Graupner and lets not forget the in depth instructions that came with the original Paper topped poly bagged Airfix kits. Then Matchbox and Tamaya arrived ......
Regards Ian
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Ah Tamiya :) there are many manufacturers who could learn alot from those guys when it comes to instruction manuals, sprue design, materials etc etc
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Tamiya kits were a Revelation when they came out, I had a run on the 1/12 F1 cars, first one the JPS Lotus if I remember correctly, I picked up an unmade 1/72 aircraft kit at the local car boot last week...paid £1.
At that scale its not the building, its all in the paint job!
As if I didn't already have enough to stick together :D
JB.
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and one of the problems he was having was understanding the words Bow and Stern. "Oh, you need to know technical terms about boats? I can put an Airfix kit together in about half an hour"
i remember one classic moment 15 or so years ago when i used to run a model boat building night school class at a local school............
was giving a pep talk to new "students" all in their 50 - 60 - 70's at the start of a new season, and mentioned to them all that they would need some basic tools to work with at home, like a steel rule, craft knife and a cutting board.just the basics.
one silly old s o d stopped me in my tracks and said [ and i quote ver batim]....."HUH.......YOU DON'T SET B L O O D Y HOMEWORK AS WELL, DO YOU"
With a mentality like that.......and there are those that think model ship building is a "pass time" and not a hobby that gets into your blood and whole being......that THEY really are passed help and have absolutely no chance of building a model, no matter how simply and straight foward or well written instructions and plans are.
but for those who are willing to learn then instructions and plans and good quality kits are a must, or there will forever be half finished models and very disgruntled people willing to slate those manufacturers that don't come up to the mark.
And i must contradict the comment that kits would cost a great deal more if instructions were written as fully understandable and plans drawn at full size.........it takes no more time to explain in a set of instructions what glues to use [ and other such processes] than it does to leave that sort of info out, and it actually takes less time to draw a set of plans at full size than it does to draw them "none Scale".........i know as i have written sets of instructions and drawn full size plans containing all such info, and have been asked in the past but turned them down for personal reasons by at least two other companies producing kits in this country.
the fallacy that it takes less time and therefore less money by producing lower par instructions and plans is simply false and also false economy in the long run.
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And i must contradict the comment that kits would cost a great deal more if instructions were written as fully understandable and plans drawn at full size.........it takes no more time to explain in a set of instructions what glues to use [ and other such processes] than it does to leave that sort of info out,
I have to disagree. If you write up and illustraite every single step in the production of a model, then it takes a long time. I have an idea how long as I do this every month in Hornby Magazine for railway projects - even a simple model can take a couple of days to complete. Something like a warship would take months. The superstructure, for example, is full of parts to be cut out from plastic and stuck together. You might want to show this in detail for one item but after this it's normal to assume the modeller now has an idea what they are doing and engage the brain and work out that some of the boxes they build will be different shapes. Someone like Hachette doesn't, they show every single joint to ensure plenty of issues of the partwork.
High quality, well writen instructions MUST take longer than badly writen ones. The later can be summed up with "Take the parts and stick them together". That took me seconds to write, anthing else will be much more work.
Another point is that they should be written by someone other than the manufacturer. They are too close to the kit and "know" how it goes together. This means shipping a kit to another modeller and letting them get on with it. That person will want paying for thier work if it's any good, pushing up the cost of the kit again. No wonder badly writen building notes are so appealing.
Mind you, I've built kits with NO instructions. Is it really wrong to expect people to have at least some idea of what they are making before they start ? I don't mean a in depth examination of the prototype but at least knowing what the pointy bit is called and looking at a few photos to get the general idea of where all the bits go.
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I have to disagree. If you write up and illustraite every single step in the production of a model, then it takes a long time. I have an idea how long as I do this every month in Hornby Magazine for railway projects - even a simple model can take a couple of days to complete. Something like a warship would take months.
well, speaking from similar experience, we'll just have to agree to disagree. :-))
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It seems to me to be that are still too many British suppliers and manufacturers that still rely on the fact that average Brit is hopeless at complaining...
Mind you my experience of of pursuing a complaint has hardly been much better than just moaning.....lots of promises all of them broken...They know if the item isn't that expensive you are very unlikely to take them to court..
Don,t be confused....not all the people in the model trade are nice people...
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Phil's point of "knowing what your getting into" is SO valid! ------- As a novice before I attempted my first ever model, I went to shows and shops and asked many questions before buying. I have good practical skills but had absolutely no knowledge of models or boats, you learn about the 'pointy bits' as you go - I even know what ruffle holes are now! {-) As advised by many I opted for a Model Slipway kit, I read description of skill level on his site, spoke to him and chose the Loyal Class - brilliant! My second the Shamrock, again Model Slipway, looked simple but to get it absolutely right it wasn't, but my learning curve had began and without having to scratch build anything. Neither 'fell together' but I don't think I would want them to, it was no doubt excellent plans ,diagrams, parts and especially the instructions that helped me put together models I'm really pleased with - Without a doubt it was this that fuelled my desire for modelling, to continue and improve.
The third kit I purchased a Deans MTB 488 I think it looks a great boat, bought it knowingly beforehand (especially from this forum) that some things as previously voiced would leave a lot to be desired - it didn't disappoint! I'm still glad I have it but initial study told me to leave it a while. The point I make is that to fulfill expectation any model chosen and from where to buy needs research beforehand! After all when buying cars household appliances etc. etc. people usually do their homework looking for value for money, even then I'll bet most manufacturers that produce a large range have a 'dog' or two!
Don't be over enthusiastic when pitching skill level, and don't expect 'cheap' quality, they very rarely go together, you really have to learn what your getting into and like all things in life it's usually a compromise. I think 'slating' is a strong word - but! if members weren't to voice advice and or opinion on this forum I probably wouldn't have learned as much as I have and Deans kit would have gone back by now! I find improving and overcoming challenges so satisfying.
A project in stock for the (distant) future - a Tyne Models Ironsider tug - just love the finished model, it's a big brute. Inside the box; fibreglass hull, superstructure all in one with no markings, one plain sheet of styrene, a small box of white metal fittings and a few strips of wire 2 very poor copies of plans and photos on a CD showing a Kort nozzle fitted that the plans don't show as the original didn't have one, and that's it - no diagrams, no descriptions, no preprinted parts, no instructions, and sold as a part kit with the majority to be scratch built using own materials. Weren't cheap - but it DOES meet criteria as described by the vendor, so I'm happy even though I haven't a clue if, how, where, and when to start.
Watch out for cries of help in a few years time! {-) {-)
Regards, Tony.
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I notice the Deans Marine thread is now locked.... :((
A big problem for most traders is that their customers can now talk to each other very much more easily nowadays via Internet forums.
The old back slapping reviews of products in magazines, that were designed to back up the paid advertising, that were the norm once are on the way out..
I realize that all things are made to a price... but often the price seem very high compared to the quality of the product..
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The old back slapping reviews of products in magazines, that were designed to back up the paid advertising, that were the norm once are on the way out..
As someone who has done a number of magazine reviews over the years I strongly resent that comment. I have never been put under any pressure whatsoever to do other than tell it as it is and if you have read any of my reviews then you would see they are warts and all.
With such crass statements as this maybe the mods should lock this thread too
Colin
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As someone who has done a number of magazine reviews over the years I strongly resent that comment. I have never been put under any pressure whatsoever to do other than tell it as it is and if you have read any of my reviews then you would see they are warts and all.
With such crass statements as this maybe the mods should lock this thread too
Colin
yes, i took a little umbidge to that comment as well.
i wrote a number of reveiws in the 1980/90's and never once was i approached by a manufacturer to give them a "good review", and because of some of my comments, got some stick for my blunt views from those manufacturers............there was certainly no "back slapping" in my day as a reviewer, and i wouldn't have done them had i been asked to say anything but the truth >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-(
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Handbags at dawn then.(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p8/DickyD_photos/image00334343.gif)
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what, at my age, dicky........more like walking sticks and colostomy bags........... {-) {-) {-) {-)
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I don't think anyone is really going out of their way to slate any manufacturer in particular. I do however think that we pay a lot of money for some of these kits and that should be reflected in the quality of parts and instructions, plans etc. Like has been said before if two pieces are meant to fit together then they should fit together. We all expect to have to do some fettling with white metal, resin parts etc but we shouldn't have to replace/remake parts because they're 'unfit for purpose'. There should be good quality controls in place so the problem doesn't arise, you should at least expect a replacement to arrive fairly promptly if you do need one. Part of my enjoyment in making these models is that you do have to solve problems and be creative a lot of the time, but we shouldn't have to put up with substandard parts and service, I get enough of that at work. I build boats for relaxation and enjoyment, not to get frustrated. Dave. O0
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i might not write for the English magazines, but i do for the German ones... in the Modellwerft 9/2011 is my report on the SS furie...
i have been approached by the magazines to do a report on a particular kit, but have never been approached by the manufactures of these kits
i also resent the comments made >>:-( >>:-( :police:
The old back slapping reviews of products in magazines, that were designed to back up the paid advertising, that were the norm once are on the way out..
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I would have thought the manufacturers would appreciate constructive criticism rather than just having an extended advert printed. Word soon spreads about the truth, and if false and misleading articles were continually printed any magazine or publication and the author would soon lose all credibility and status, not to mention people would just stop buying said publications, Dave. O0
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Quite!
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I think enough has been said on this subject
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