Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Submarines => Topic started by: bobk on March 03, 2012, 04:18:14 pm
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Engel submarine Type 212A
I am sure many have built these so do not intend to create a build log. I needed to learn more about building and operating submarines for another project, and this boat was highly recommended. Got it at Westbourne yesterday and spent the evening reading the well detailed instruction booklet twice. No rush, but it goes together beautifully.
Picture below shows I am a fair way into the Tech Rack already.
(http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n626/bobkiralfy/Type%20212A/212a.jpg)
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Only one person I know of on here has built one, and that's Ramesh (Mankster). I'm sure it will interest people to see how they clip together, I think this boat is a great model for beginners and seasoned submarine modellers alike.
The only issue some people have had with this boat is with the electronic piston tank control board, and if memory serves me correctly it was tried in with the pressure switch. Have a word with Ramesh about that.
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Hi,@bobk
I wheel watch every post of You with hope I wheel find some answer to my questions regarding Piston tank function.
Even know,after all most a year since I have the kit I wasn't able to solve NUMEROUS glitches of it!. <:( <*<.
So PLEASE post every move You make maybe...maybe I wheel find THE ANSWERS.
And by the way:Congratulation for the Acquisition. :-))
(http://s16.postimage.org/wznwm1edt/15_0034.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/wznwm1edt/)
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Have you tried following the advice in this thread?-
http://s181686668.onlinehome.us/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=10608&start=0&hilit=engel+212
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You are right, it almost just clips together. I am taking it slowly, absorbing the detailed info on care needed with alignment and fitting of certain parts. A lot going on between the end of the piston tank and the control board requiring precise assembly alignments etc.
Technically it is neat concept. The whole tech rack is ‘dry’ and the resin cast hull is the watertight compartment which locks together like a thermos flask. The periscopes are simply operated by a small piston and tube connected into the hull. As internal air pressure increases on diving the scopes pop up. That has given me an idea for another sub (Slap wrist, get that one working first !)
Interesting link. Thanks.
Sorry to hear you’ve had problems Bijou. At the moment I am just assembling it, but will try to take more pictures as I go.
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The 212, Lafayette and Type VII are all newer designed kits based on cylindrical pressure hulls, and they have nice CNC cut items which ensures accuracy and self-jigging designs.
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Have you tried following the advice in this thread?-
http://s181686668.onlinehome.us/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=10608&start=0&hilit=engel+212
HI,I wheel. :-)) and I wheel keep you on post about it!.
THANK YOU
MARIUS
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@SUBCULTURE,
I allready did these:"German instruction manual they instruct you to fit a ferrite ring to the wiring to reduce noise...", but unfortunateley for me had NO Result!. :(( >:-o
MARIUS
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Okay. Have you tried the following-
1. Disconnecting the pressure sensor altogether.
2. Try another channel on the receiver.
3. Try another receiver (if you have a spare).
4. Are you using a BEC, or a separate battery pack?
5. Try a different ESC (if you have a spare).
6. Could be a bad board, Engel might replace?
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@Subculture,
1" OK,
2" OK,
3" I have and I wheel,
4" I have a separate battery pack for the ballast tank/Receiver,
5" OK I wheel,
6" Unfortunately I allready had a problem with DLx Pitch controller witch had been changed and after such long time since I have the Model I don't think is possible to convince them to give me another board(can assume that I damaged the product),
Thank You and Good Knight
MARIUS
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A few more photos of the Type 212A tech rack being assembled
View of the front section, with battery compartment and pressure switch
(http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n626/bobkiralfy/Type%20212A/212c.jpg)
Detail of the rear of the piston tank and control circuit board. Note piston travel limit microswitches.
(http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n626/bobkiralfy/Type%20212A/212b.jpg)
The only drilling required so far. Box for power connectors and receiver mounting. 1.5mm holes for screw fixings, spotted through from top cover holes.
(http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n626/bobkiralfy/Type%20212A/212d.jpg)
I am a bit stuck at the moment as the servos appear too small. They sandwich between two of the CNC cut circular platforms where the servo lugs locate in slots.
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The Engel site says the rack is designed exclusively for the Robbe MG500 mini servo.
Is that what you're using?
I would think just about any mini servo would be okay for this boat, but you will probably have to adapt the rack slightly, because I think the Robbe servos are an odd size.
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FS 500 MG is indeed what the instructions quote, but I came home with Futaba S3154's. Far too small. They were not in the kit, but amongst additional parts bought for it at the time. These should neatly slot into place, clamped between two flames 30 mm apart with slots for servo lugs, so it's best if I get the ones Engel designed it for or at least servos dimesionally similar. No worries. Thanks for telling me it is a Robbe.
The technical authoring starts off superb, but does slope off about 2/3 the way through, leaving you to try to figure how some key bits go.
eg: Big tube from the piston tank is for water and so must terminate on the wet side of the bulkhead, where there a brass tube of the right diameter. Just an extra run of tube not mentioned. The same with the PVC tube from the pressure switch (air or water pressure?) ends in a brass tube halfway along the tech frame. Keep re-reading the booklet for clues !
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They are weeny little servos, very torquey though as they're digital, which you don't need really. Is that what Westbourne Models recommended for the kit?
I must say I'm confused by Engels rationale that metal geared servos are necessary with this model. The MG500's seem like overkill to me.
The pressure switches are diaphragm based, they would need to be connected externally, and as the boat dives deeper it will compress the air bubble in the tube, shifting the diaphragm and eventually throwing the switch inside. They're set for about 6 feet, so if you want to plumb the depths, you should disconnect it altogether.
The Engel instructions may have one or two omissions, but they're more comprehensive than most.
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No complaints. The manual is one of the best I've seen outside MOD applications. The engineering inside is precise and robust, which I guess their servo choice reflects. I will call Westbourne Monday, I have the dimensions required. He has built an Engel Type VII (pause for drooling! - far too big for my car). I am sure I remember seiing a 212A at St Albans last year.
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Yes, that was Ramesh's. Did you get the special combined mixer/leveller with the kit too?
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Yes, that was Ramesh's. Did you get the special combined mixer/leveller with the kit too?
No, but he said I could order it if I found I needed it. I saw it, it is very small.
I am intrigued with the X tail arrangement
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I think you might need it, not just for the levelling, but also to limit the servo throws on this boat. Hopefully Ramesh will chip in here and confirm or deny that.
If not, you will most certainly need an electronic mixer to combine the pitch and rudder servo action, as unlike a cruciform tail, x-tail control surfaces work in combination.
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I have so many question but i wheel start with pictures(by the way:how can I ad many pictures at once?)
(http://s17.postimage.org/6sk05dmp7/Corect_Direction_0067.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/6sk05dmp7/)
(http://s18.postimage.org/f4oheqhx1/15_0009.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/f4oheqhx1/)
(http://s14.postimage.org/4ad0co2z1/15_0039.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4ad0co2z1/)
MARIUS
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To add many images at once, just click on the 'many images' option when the postimage window opens.
Regarding your pictures you shouldn't require the other side of those servo arms, the boat doesn't employ 'push-pull' linkages.
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HI,
In the mean time I had to charge the Acc and then I wheel tray what @Subculture said.
MARIUS
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"If not, you will most certainly need an electronic mixer to combine the pitch and rudder servo action, as unlike a cruciform tail, x-tail control surfaces work in combination."
I was bought for the X tail these,from "Engell" along with the kit:
(http://s19.postimage.org/jx5k0ulz3/15_0012.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/jx5k0ulz3/)
but honestly even Know I don't figure at out how to make the connection to the servo in order to obtain the correct movement of the X tails!. {:-{
as for the servo I bought "HI-Tec"HS-82MG MORE cheapper and perfect suitable for the SPACE.
Regards MARIUS
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Regarding insufficient space for the ESC, you may have to choose another make/model of controller.
With the leveller/mixer, you have two leads that plug in the receiver channels, one will go in the channel used for rudder, the other for pitch.
There are pin connectors which lead to the two servos and the motor connectors for the reversing function on this controller.
The controller is calibrated using the neutral button (use a spirit level to detect horizontal) and the strength of the levelling is taken care of with the 'sensor' pot.
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The ESC,is EXACTLY the one recommended by ENGELL.
(http://s19.postimage.org/9kj9ersfz/212_A_pg_15.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/9kj9ersfz/)
(these is a Copy from MANUAL), <*<
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Well it fits, but only just.
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I have bitten the bullet and ordered the larger Robbe FS 500 MG servos Engel specified. Sandwiched between two CNC cut bulkheads with lugs held in machined slots, plus Engel do go on about the importance of the all metal gears and gear box in their booklet. Maybe risk of failure if I used a cheap alternative?
I have also ordered the Engel X Mixer. The more I think on it the more I believe it is nesseassry to control this unusual tail configuration. Had I bought the conventional tailed Lafeyette instead I would have opted to go without until sea trials to see how it went.
Darn: I now have two subs under construction on the slipways (two workbenches).
I am back working on the K boat whilst held up on the Type 212A.
The plan was to gain experience building and sailing the 212A before recommencing work on the K, but new insights this week have unlocked much of what had slowed the K project. Cost escalations would even cause the MoD concerns ! I dare not add up the cost of my submarine programme
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I don't honestly understand why they spec metal gear servos, seems like complete overkill to me. Speak to most model submariners, or just look at their boats and you'll most often see the bog standard, bottom of the line servos, not even ballraced, and they work just fine.
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Key factor was the servo body size and lugs are an exact fit. I could have spent many hours on trying 'similar' servos only to find they didn't quite fit either.
Quote "Bulkheads accept exclusively servo type FS 500 MG BB (item no. RO8431)" maybe right, the frame was designed for it. A few other bits in the book hinted towards Engels design choice for servo. When I have them in and linkages connected I will post a photo.
The more I get into subs the more I find that following the designers intent as far as possible saves wasting huge amounts of time and money in experimentation (I already have).
Realisically I am a budding sub builder, not a bespoke designer. That may come in time with experience.
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After a month on hold whilst the UK supplier was waiting on parts from Engel a nice box of various sub parts arrived here from Dorset today. Key parts required for my Engel Type 212A were the two 'special' Micro Robbe FS 500 BB MG servos which the Tech Frame is specifically designed to sandwich, and the X Tail mixer. The mixer is expected from Germany towards the end of next week I am told.
However, the servos supplied (New Power XLO-17MB) will require the lugs thickness to be filed down to fit the CNC cut ABS frame slots. It appears Engel may have a problem sourcing the Robbe parts. The servos otherwise look dimensionally OK.
Anyway I am underway again and will post more photos when I have the modified servos installed. I should now be able to complete the main part of the build, then fit the X Tail mixer when it arrives.
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Would it not be preferable to file the slots out a little wider in the rack rather than modify the servos themselves?
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Good point Andy, I was just thinking the servos are more easily replacable if I get it wrong.
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Servo’s at last
I have a lousy sense of timing. This Type 212A was going to be a one week build, to learn about building and operating model submarines before getting into my bespoke build.
Things came to a halt a month ago due to difficulties obtaining the servos that this tech frame was specifically designed around.
Firstly many thanks to Westbourne Models for all their help, and to Engel who have found two originals for me which have just arrived.
It appears that Robbe have stopped making the FS 500 MG servo. I have been advised that after trialling alternatives Engel are now in the process of having replicas made in the Far East. The case and lugs make an exact sandwich fit between two CNC bulkheads, and the HD metal gearbox is necessary in case servo throw limit is exceeded, a problem with some transmitter settings being overriden by the X Tail Controller. The new Mk II Controller has an additional control allowing you to limit the throw. eg: 70%
(http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n626/bobkiralfy/Type%20212A/212e.jpg)
I can now carry on the build :-)) O0 X Tail Controller is now on its way to me.
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Getting there.
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Getting there.
Indeed ! I feel increasingly confident in building this boat (until I come to imerse it in the bath!). Only trouble is I am now working on two subs.
However, focus on the 212A first as it is essentially an assembly task.
I have the motor compartment for the K Class assembled, and I am gaining confidence on that too.
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You can use the Multiplex receiver that wouldn't squeeze into the 2.5" subdriver module.
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You can use the Multiplex receiver that wouldn't squeeze into the 2.5" subdriver module.
Now that's a Brill' idea :-)) Just need a crystal for it to match my Robbe F14 Tx. Better spec than the Rx that came with the F14.
Incidently, my other 'surplus' Tx/Rx system from that project, the WFLY, is earmarked for a very low freeboard Victorian warship that will build after the submarines. I like to plan long term. O0
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Isn't the Multiplex RX synthesized?
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Isn't the Multiplex RX synthesized?
No, the Multiplex Micro-IPD is an "FM IPD PPM - 7 Channel Narrowband Receiver". It has a socket for a crystal in the side.
Says "only use Multiplex crystals" but looks a normal 2 pin metal can style size.
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Okay, gotcha. You must use the multiplex crystals, although other crystals will fit mechanically, they're most likely to be a slightly different frequency- this varies from company to company unfortunately. Just get a Multiplex crystal on the same band as the F14, and you'll be good to go.