Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Beginners start here...! => Topic started by: minardifans on April 03, 2012, 10:56:09 pm
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I used to have a model boat as a child, one my father bought from a junk shop. It had a wooden hull and was powered by a motorcycle battery. I remember it weighing a ton, not lasting very long on a charge and all the electrics being stored in an empty 'Stork' Margerine tub inside the hull to stop the water leaking over the electrics. {-)
After watching some of the RC boats in the local boating lake in the lovely weather we've been having I'd love to give it a go again (and also because my son loved watching them to).
I love DIY projects as I'm into my model railways and such so I was thinking of scratch building a hull to start with. I was looking at some other members on here have used Plastic as a frame before planking with plastic also and then coating in Fiberglass. The question I have is wether or not you need to use the fiberglass sheet or can you just use the resin liquid on it's own or are there other resins that you can use that don't require using a weave.
I've got a basic idea of shape and plan in my head and some sketches on paper, just need to think about waterproofing before I go any further.
Thanks.
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Hi and welcome :-)
Daniel
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Hello and welcome to our club.
Have a look around and maybe use our 'Search' facility. If you have any queries, the members would be happy to help you. Maybe you could post a build blog along with some pictures and show us how you're getting on.
Cheers
ken
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Hello Minardifans and welcome :}
QUOTE:
I love DIY projects as I'm into my model railways and such so I was thinking of scratch building a hull to start with. I was looking at some other members on here have used Plastic as a frame before planking with plastic also and then coating in Fiberglass. The question I have is wether or not you need to use the fiberglass sheet or can you just use the resin liquid on it's own or are there other resins that you can use that don't require using a weave.
I've got a basic idea of shape and plan in my head and some sketches on paper, just need to think about waterproofing before I go any further.
QUOTE
If you are familiar with plastic assembly - go for it! I have made several boats with styrene because it was available for free, builds fast and gives a good finish.
You can (depending on the actual hull shape you have in mind) make the planking fairly watertight without any further covering. People do this and bung up any leaks with the same plastic dissolved in solvent.
You can bond glass strips inside the hull for strength, or cover the outside with glass (or nylon stocking, or horticultural fleece!), andf you can stick it with virtually any adhesive including fibreglass resin. Or emulsion paint - but prolly not pva glue as it is marginal on water-resistance for this application
Tell us, please your intentions
Having an interested son is a very valid reason to have a boat to play with sail seriously :}
andrew
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If you're looking for a cheap way to get your son (and you) into boat modelling, then I run a site specifically intended to enable young kids to build small simple boats with minimal help from Dad. Free plans and help are at http://modelboats.hobby-site.com/ (http://modelboats.hobby-site.com/) ...
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HI AND WELCOME,
I would build a easy build in balsa from a plan , or a kit item , there are some good beginners plan in boat magazines god luck Larry..... :-))
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Hello Newbie . Welcome to the Mayhem site. I could send you a plan that is easy to build using balsa wood. I have sent you a p/m yesterday if you would like this plan please make contact via Mayhem.
Stan
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So not sure where to start with motors and electrics etc. I understand that I will need a controller with crystals that normally come in a pack. Where is the best place to buy motors/servos etc and is there need for some kind of circuit to wire them up to? Is there a kit where you can buy all the bits such as servos/motor etc in a pack or can someone explain what exactly is needed in this area and what is the best type of wire to use. Completely new to the electronics side of things on this side.
Ideally for the type of boat I am making I would like 2 motors, 2 rudders and a speed controller. I have no idea what parts I'd need or where to start, but I have an idea of controlling two rudders off one servo to save money maybe.
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Hi Minardifans. First of all I would buy a 2.4 radio set , not many people use 27 am or 40 fm now. Servos work with all radio sets. Only problems are the different colours used on the servo leads. Motors such a large range, do you want scale speed or fast speed? Speed controllers need to be matched to the motors you re planning to use. Prop size will also impact on the speed controller you will use. Wiring information check out Action Electronics web site, they have some good information that may help you out. Without more information on the type of model you intend to build it is very hard to answer all your questions. I am sure mayhem members will help out if they can with any problems you may have but I think they will agree more information is needed. I would also suggest if possible you visit your local model boat club where you will also find a vast amount of information.
Stan
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Well my interest is in Ferry boats and StenaLine since they take us on holiday each year yet my son wants a fast boat so I thought I would combine the two by building something like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2bA-tcEe6U
I live in Holyhead so a bigger version of the HSS operates from a port down the road and it would be nice to model something local. I don't intend it to be that detailed, just the basic shape and I intend to use mainly plasticard (or similar) and then seal the hull of the model using either Fiberglass or Epoxy resin.
I have drawn some plans and worked out how big the model would be regards to various scales. 1:100 would be massive. (1.3m long!) So I've worked on 1:100 minus 30% of all the measurements (whatever that scale would be, I'm sure someone good at maths could tell me.) but the model would be about 90cm long which for me sounds good because if I'm gonna build something I like to do it big!
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Hate to disillusion you but if you check on the builds shown on the forum 90 cms is actually a bit on the small side.
The average size of a tug is about 90 cms. (http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p8/DickyD_photos/Smileys/thinking1.gif)
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Really? I had the thought that building something 1.26m long x 40cm wide and nearly 30cm high would be rather too big. considering the HSS is practically brick shaped.
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My advice is to make it as big as you can while being able to fit it in the car or trailer. It's surprising how small your boat looks when it's out on the water.
Ali
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Funnily I did take the car into account. I have a Citroen Picasso and 1.25m ish is the maximum width. I could make something much bigger but a) it would be impractical b) I would have to remove seats from the car to transport it and c) I need to fit it through the loft hatch in order to store the boat over winter.
The wife is dead against my plans however. She would rather I buy our son a simple Chinese Syma type RC boat. I have no experience of these and how long they last etc. I would rather build something without my sons knowledge and surprise him with something I have built with my own hands. Plus these cheap Chinese boats are all focused on speedboats etc and no ferries.
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I do not thinlk fibreglass resin will be much good on plastic card.
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Check out my thread and youtube videos for more info on building a plastic hull.
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=29250.0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej2D99Wdp4Q
Ali
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I don't think what I have is actually plasticard. I work in a shop and it's what firms send us with advertising on. It's about 2mm thick. It's not cardboard based and definitely plastic based. It's not corex (that stuff that has hollows in it). It's solid but fairly easy to cut or slice. Some of what they send us is up to 4mm thick. They always send us more than we actually need. The consistency of the stuff is almost like if you took polystyrene and pressed it solid under massive weight to remove all the air bubbles.
My first task is to see if this stuff is glueable with plastic weld.
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Really? I had the thought that building something 1.26m long x 40cm wide and nearly 30cm high would be rather too big. considering the HSS is practically brick shaped.
It was just a thought on my part, feel free to ignore it, I havent built many boats.
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Check out my thread and youtube videos for more info on building a plastic hull.
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=29250.0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej2D99Wdp4Q
Ali
There was no need, after seeing the boats in our local boat club I youtubed rc ferries. Your awsome model was what drew me here in the first place. I found it on youtube and was like WOW! I did have first intentions of saying "I'm gonna build Stena Hollandica!" before sitting down and thinking, there's now way I'm that talented and it would be enormous. But your methods had made me realize I could do it with plastics rather than wood. Then I decided for my first build it would be a good idea to keep it more simple so the Stenna HSS is rather blocky, no guard rails, etc etc.
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Funnily I did take the car into account. I have a Citroen Picasso and 1.25m ish is the maximum width. I could make something much bigger but a) it would be impractical b) I would have to remove seats from the car to transport it and c) I need to fit it through the loft hatch in order to store the boat over winter.
You also need to consider where you will store the boat at home. If it's a nice one then you might want to display it. If not, you might want to make a box for it, which saves it being knocked and broken in storage...
The wife is dead against my plans however. She would rather I buy our son a simple Chinese Syma type RC boat. I have no experience of these and how long they last etc. I would rather build something without my sons knowledge and surprise him with something I have built with my own hands. Plus these cheap Chinese boats are all focused on speedboats etc and no ferries.
No matter how good or bad it is, a boat built by yourself is always a lot better than something you have bought ready-made. And if your son can do something as well, that makes it a lot better. You will find that displacement boats like ferries look better on the water if they're bigger, but they take up a lot of room to make...have you thought of a place to sail it?
You are probably best to go for a 2.4Ghz system - they are very cheap now. The cheapest I know is £21 for a transmitter and receiver - a lot of people use the RadioLink at £26 or the Planet at £46. If you're new you might find it better to buy from a local shop where you can get advice and help, rather than buying from a web site where things are very cheap, but there is no 'aftersales'. Having said that, you can get servos from GiantCod at less than £2 each, which means you hardly need to save money on them....
Perhaps if you give us an idea of your budget we can produce more precise advice....
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It was just a thought on my part, feel free to ignore it, I havent built many boats.
I feel challenged to make it massive now... given that I haven't even started, don't get your hopes up... This is my first time.
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minardifans a friend of mine has built the stenna explorer and he sails up on LLanberis lake every sunday his name is Welsh Druid on here aka |Don Brown go up and see him for a chat I used to sail up there but alas dont anymore ....personal reasons
Dave
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You are probably best to go for a 2.4Ghz system - they are very cheap now. The cheapest I know is £21 for a transmitter and receiver - a lot of people use the RadioLink at £26 or the Planet at £46. If you're new you might find it better to buy from a local shop where you can get advice and help, rather than buying from a web site where things are very cheap, but there is no 'aftersales'. Having said that, you can get servos from GiantCod at less than £2 each, which means you hardly need to save money on them....
Perhaps if you give us an idea of your budget we can produce more precise advice....
That is the problem, you might as well be speaking French. I have no idea what these systems are or how they work. Some links for some shops that people buy from here would maybe help. There are no local shops here, the nearest model shop here is on the WWW which is very sad.
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Thanks for your comments. It's nice to know I've inspired someone.
I think plastic is perfect for making a HSS. Keep us updated on you progress, I shall be you thread with interest.
Ali
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(http://i385.photobucket.com/albums/oo295/broomsrck/PICT0199.jpg)
dave
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That is the problem, you might as well be speaking French. I have no idea what these systems are or how they work. Some links for some shops that people buy from here would maybe help. There are no local shops here, the nearest model shop here is on the WWW which is very sad.
If you put your location on your profile we might know where "here" is.
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Give him a chance Richard, you were once a newbie too.
minardifans, If you have questions do not hesitate to ask.
Ali
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I am currently based in the port town of Holyhead. Hence the feel to model something local and something that might niot be around for much longer. I was very sad to see the HSS sat there all winter because it was not cost effective to run the poor soul.
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You didn't fancy doing the Ulysses then?
Ali
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Correction there are local ish shops to you
Hobby exchange in Greenfield
Hobby corner in Wrexsam
Steve webb Models in Frodsham all within travelling distance to you
I agree nothing on Anglesey at all why not go to some of the shows There is a BIG one in Coalville on the 22nd of April and also you have got the Mayhem event in June,get hold of Model Boat magazine and marine modeller international for more info and also calender of events on here.
Pm me with your tel no if you want as I am only in Bethesda and don't bite
Dave
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Pm me with your tel no if you want as I am only in Bethesda and don't bite
Dave
New wife nicked your teeth Dave ? (http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p8/DickyD_photos/Smileys/ATT00002.gif)
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That is the problem, you might as well be speaking French. I have no idea what these systems are or how they work. Some links for some shops that people buy from here would maybe help. There are no local shops here, the nearest model shop here is on the WWW which is very sad.
Let's try a basic introduction - sorry if it's too simple. I will provide prices which are wild guesses, but might give you a bit of a feel for the costs...
You can either buy a 'ready-to-run' boat, which will come with everything (though sometimes you have to buy batteries separately), or make one.
If you make one it's usually a good idea to start with a kit, which provides materials (often a shaped hull) and instructions. It usually won't have a motor or Radio Control set, though it might have the propeller, propshaft and rudder.
If you are not using a kit, you could build from a plan, though this is not considered a good idea for a total novice who may not understand it. If you have a fairly clear idea of what shape you want to make and how to go about it, I would recommend drawing a plan anyway - it helps a lot to see where things will go....
Moving onto the 'bits' to go inside, you will start with a motor (or more than one, perhaps, if you are thinking about multiple props). Let us assume you want an electric motor - by far the most common type used nowadays.
Modern motors are either brushed (traditional) or brushless (powerful, fast, and borrowed from the flying fraternity!). For a ferry, you will probably want a brushed motor. There are all sorts, but you will find a common naming system based on numbers is often used - a 540 or a 700. See here for more info.
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/Common/Electrics/How%20Fast.htm (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/Common/Electrics/How%20Fast.htm)
If you need to buy a propellor or rudder, your local shop should provide. If not, here are a couple of well-known reputable model boat websites which sell lots of stuff:
http://www.westbourne-model.co.uk/ (http://www.westbourne-model.co.uk/)
http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/ (http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/)
Expect to pay about £20 for a prop, propshaft and rudder, and perhaps £15 for a motor. Ask about matching the right sizes together. You will also need a connector to join the motor to the propshaft...
To control the motor and rudder you will need a radio control. These come as a Transmitter and receiver (called a 'combo' or a Tx/Rx) and then some servos - one for each function you want to control. To control a motor you use a special 'servo' called an Electronic Speed Controller (ESC). There are different sizes of ESC for different motors, and brushless motors need a special type. You can get servos from £2 to £20, and ESCs for about £20-£50. Ask on here for specific advice when you come to buy a motor/esc combination..
Finally, you will want some batteries. You will want them to be rechargeable, so you will need an appropriate charger. There are several different battery types, you will probably want either NiMh or a 'gell cell', which is a lead-acid chemistry like your car, but completely sealed. Lithium Polymer batteries can provide a lot of power in a very light package, but need a special charger, care in handling, and are mainly for fast boats, so you're probably not interested in them. Expect to pay about £20-£30 for some batteries and a charger. You will probably want to run on 6-12v, depending on the motor...
Now let's think about the Radio. First, the frequency. All radio control models used to work on the 27Mhz band. Several spot frequencies were allocated in this band, referred to by a colour code, and radios had to be on 'different colours' if two or more were to be operated together. You achieved this by looking at little flags on other peoples aerials and then plugging in a crystal of a 'different colour' into your Tx and Rx.
Then more frequencies were allocated - 35Mhz for aeroplanes only, and 40Mhz for cars and boats. Again, these are crystal controlled, so you needed a set of crystals with each set.
Finally, the computer Wi-Fi band started to be used for radio control. This is 2.4Ghz, and can be easily recognised by the very short aerial needed. These sets automatically connect to their chosen Rxs, and don't need crystals changing. That's a major advantage, so many people are going to them. They also don't suffer from interference. I would recommend using 2.4Ghz, but you could pick 27Mhz or 40Mhz if you really wanted to...
50 years ago, radio sets used to be very expensive things. The major manufactures, such as Futaba, still cost a lot - say, £150 for a typical combo. For that you get a very nice bit of kit. But recently, Chinese manufacturers have been making dirt-cheap 2.4Ghz sets using the common cheap computer wi-fi electronics parts. These, as I have said, can be bought down to about £20. These combos are often fine, but one problem is that at these prices, things like instruction manuals and quality control are not provided. The very cheap combos are wonderful value for money for someone who knows what he's doing - as a starter you are probably better advised to get advice and buy from a local shop, or the local club. You can get simple systems with only two functions, which are ok for a simple model (motor speed and rudder), but most people seem to end up with the four function systems that the flyers use. A lot of people in your position get a Planet 2.4Ghz 5-function radio at about £50...
Hope this helps a bit. Plan what you want to do, take it in stages, and we are always here to help...
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Hello minardifans and welcome to the Mayhem - sometimes literally, most of the time friendly and very helpful O0 (10 out of 10 dg :-))) stick with it minardifans - you'd be surprised how many will try to help you get there. Keep posting.
Regards, Tony.
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Hello miniardifans & welcome. :-))
I don't know how experienced a modeller you are but the ferry model that you have suggested is not really what I would call a beginners model. The hull shape is complex & you would be designing it yourself with no guarantee as to what it would look like when you have finished. My guess is that you would also want it to go fast - because the real ferry does - which makes the design trickier. It would also need to be twin engined for the catamaran design. This is a lot to take on for a first model.
I know that it is important that both you & your son like the finished model but it would be easier if you could negotiate a model based on a plan or a kit - and preferably one that you have seen completed and talked to someone who has built one about the difficulties. My guess is that for most commercial models that you might choose there will be someone here who has built, or is a clubmate of someone who has built, an example.
I come from model aircraft where beginners all seem to want to learn to fly with a Spitfire. These are never beginners models & guarantee failure. I am concerned that your ferry might fall into the same category. For a first model success is the most important outcome.
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TF speaks wise words. I also started with flying, and it was axiomatic that beginners either wanted to start with a Spitfire, or a 12ft Lancaster with retracts, moving turrets and a functioning bomb bay. Starting with something simpler makes success more likely, and a kit is ideal....
The other thing you need for a boat is a lake. Do you have one readily available? Are there restrictions on its use? That can also drive the kind of boat you are able to build...
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I know for a fact there is a local Club right on his door step it is i the Breakwater park yes essentially it is a fishing pond BUT the club are allowed to sail on it on a sunday.Not had anything to do with this club personally BUT they do exhibit in some of the local shows,There is allways the lads at LLanberis,or even Colwyn Bay so there are waters within 500yds of the Port of Holyhead and beyond.
One thing Holyhead has is a wealth of fantastic modelers who will if contacted help and share their wealth of Knowledge,Les Jones is truly a fantastic modeler and his work is awnsipring,You also Have Derek he sells stuff on ebay as Boatman wales,he lives on the way to the port.As I have stated before contact me and Ill help
Dave
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minardifans, I personally started designing my own boats and still do it now. I cant get a real true to life result of anything (yet) but can make a functioning model. I was advised many years ago that desiging and building my own boat was a bad idea and would do better with a kit, considering i couldnt afford a kit i didnt start building boats till i was an adult, still not being able to afford a kit i designed and scratch built my own. Ive now built 14 boats and only one was a purchased plan. My advice is to draw out your boat first and think about methods of getting the shape. Youl need plenty of coffee or tea or fags or whatever ya habbit is. Start making a small practice model out of cereal box card to see if it works. The bigger the boat you make the larger the components you will need to make it operational and this then puts the build price up. If it was me id build the 90cm boat to keep the build costs down then if it goes TU then you wont have wasted stupid amounts of money and your misus wont be saying told ya so :-))
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I can endorse Dave's mention of Derek (Boatman Wales)
He sold me the bits and pieces for a springer.
Very good value for money.
Ned
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Hi minardifans,
Don't let anyone put you off if you are sure that you can complete your model, I had the same thing when I started.
However we don't want you to make a costly mistake and come away with a bad model boating experience. You will no doubt have many questions so don't be afraid or too proud to ask.
May I echo what Mad Mike said and suggest building a small version first, this could become your son's model when you build the full size version.
Looking into the design of the HSS, it seems you will have to start thinking about the type of propulsion you are going to use very early on in the build. There are water jet drives available but whatever you choose the drive units will have to be built into the hull as you build it.
Something to think about eh!
Ali
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I hear what people are saying and I agree, it would be silly to build something so big and get it wrong. I haven't really started anything yet apart from drawings, working out scales etc.
So I have decided to build a basic small boat just to try out my abilities and work out wiring/motors etc. Given that I'm working with plastic I was thinking of trying something rather square and really basic, maybe something like a WW2 D-day landing craft or just a squarish speed boat.
We have loads of old RC cars that still work knocking about so I might butcher one of those for motors/servos/speed controllers just to see how it works, if I can get it to float properly etc.
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(http://i385.photobucket.com/albums/oo295/broomsrck/PICT0199.jpg)
dave
Love it, that looks fantastic! :-)
If you have some plans for it, links to pics of your build etc that would be very informative and much appreciated. What scale did you build it to?
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See Reply 21 it was not built by myself
Pm me
Dave
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Minardifans
First the material you are being given is almost certainly foamed PVC. If you look at a section of the thicker sheet does it look like two skins with something less dense between?
Very suitable for building boats with! My Thames barge, Kitty is skinned with it because I was given a large amount. It goes under lots of trade names, one of which is Foamex,
It glues with the right solvent glues, epoxy, PU, cyano, etc and cuts like styrene
If you fancy a landing craft made in sheet material I have an ancient free plan from Model Boats - which was originally made in sheet aluminium - it might provide some ideas
If you are familiar with r/c cars then you have most of the components and knowledge to make a boat and enjoy it
andrew
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Love it, that looks fantastic! :-)
If you have some plans for it, links to pics of your build etc that would be very informative and much appreciated. What scale did you build it to?
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=22748.msg223965#msg223965
Have a day out one Sunday and come to the lake at Llanberis. It isn't far from Holyhead, (less distance than some of us travel to sail at Llanberis).
You will be able to see several types of boats and talk to the builders. Much better than just reading descriptions of how to do it.
If you let me know when you are coming I will make sure the HSS is there that day.
Sundays from about 9-30 am
Don B.