Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Steam => Topic started by: Mad_Mike on June 27, 2012, 11:46:56 am
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Ive noticed in the odd thread that there is some concern about the steam side of our hobby going the way of the dodo. Maybe im wrong, maybe there is a small growing society of enthusiasts in the making and im just not aware. I dont remember the age of steam, it was long gone when i was born but i have been on train rides and seen traction engines. Theyre is something about it all that i feel modern technology of my own generation lacks, steam is without a doubt an age of mechanical art which Ill never know.
Im going to have a bash at it either way and maybe ill get into it and one day in 50 years time ill be the one with concerns about the future of steam.
For starters ive noticed that this steam stuff is really expensive. Even the most basic engines and boilers are pushing up and beyond the £100 mark unless you go second hand mamod off ebay.
Im pretty skint most of the time so buying an engine that produces enough power to be useful is out of the question, it looks like im going to have to scratch build my own. I dont have a lathe or a milling machine so im going to have to make do with my usual hand tools, hack saw, files, stanley etc. Ive tried to build a working steam engine several times, all failed in one way or another. Anyway enough waffling heres my latest attempt:
Ive decided to make my engine out of plasticard. Scouring the forum and researching on the net ive come accross the simple osccilating steam engine. My previous attempts all involved a cam or crank operating the valves. Usually double acting and usually failing. here it is in bits:
(http://s10.postimage.org/qdopwj6g5/SDC16328_Copy.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/qdopwj6g5/)
It stands roughly 14cm inches high, it has a stroke of 4 cm and a bore of 1.7cm. The flywheel where is old paint tub filled with a mixture of pebbles and epoxy. The crank and con rod is 1/8th brass rod and all parts move in side brass tube with an internal diameter of 1/8th. Ive soldered on the big end made out of the tube and some collars on the crankshaft to stop it moving in the main bearing which also brass tube:
(http://s14.postimage.org/t5jpd8cnh/SDC16326_Copy.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/t5jpd8cnh/)
(http://s18.postimage.org/uvfpua3w5/SDC16327_Copy.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/uvfpua3w5/)
This engine is my first one that actually WORKS. It will turn by blowing the down the tube. I have bought a 12v car tyre compressor to run it, while it does create ample pressure it doesnt create enough flow so the engine barely moves. The only think that ive got at the minute other than my lungs to run it is an air bed foot pump, it works ok but ideally i need a workshop compressor. Ive made a video of it running but its very bad quality so ill need to redo it. Youl just have to take my word for it that runs for now.
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Ive made a video and uploaded to youtube. Until i have a steady supply or air the running is intermitant. But you get the idea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWk-8zZp_lw&feature=channel&list=UL
My next challenge is to make one out of brass and solder is all togeather. I want to use a mamod boiler or equivalent to drive it. I have electrical solder and a soldering iron. Will this work for making an engine or do i need something stronger? Ive been reading a bit about soldering boilers and engines and noticed that some of the temperatures of solders go up in to the 700 degC range and im find it a bit confusing what tpypes of fluxes and solders i need. If i need to use these kind of solders will a gas soldering iron do it or do i need a blow torch or something.
thanks
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You are a mad man!
Looks good tho
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You are a mad man!
Looks good tho
whats so mad about a plastic steam engine?
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Mad,
Good for you!
I too would like to "get into steam" but find the costs prohibitive.
However, I suspect that the health 'n' safety business has something to do with that. When I was a lad, tin plate steam engines were perfectly normal...I think my dad still has one in the garage somewhere.
I got a "cheap" kit from THESE (http://www.forest-classics.co.uk/Basic%20Boiler%20Kit.htm)people. I've posted on here for construction advice and people have fainted with horror at the lethal nature of the beast.
Hey ho. The worst thing is I don't think they're necessarily wrong.
Be prepared to have to fight tooth and nail for you DIY engine though {-)
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ive seen those and was considering buying one. While im experimenting with building engines ill use compressed air, when i go the steam route ill use low pressure stuff such as the mamod gear.
why did people faint with horror at the nature of the beast? I know not literally but what was wrong with it? and why will i have to fight tooth and nail for my DIY engine. Im getting the impression that this venture into steam is going to last. {:-{
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I got a "cheap" kit from THESE people. I've posted on here for construction advice and people have fainted with horror at the lethal nature of the beast.
Hey ho. The worst thing is I don't think they're necessarily wrong.
Sorry, not fainted with horror, Perhaps a link to your original posting? O0
Regards Ian.
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Sorry, not fainted with horror, Perhaps a link to your original posting? O0
Okay, here (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=36531.msg365262#msg365262)'s a link: http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=36531.msg365262#msg365262
Still haven't finished it 'cause I've had other fish to fry and "somebody" has tidied up the instructions. <*<
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It doesnt look very promising for brass boilers, should i avoid this kit then?
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Hi there, nice to see a bit of improvisation, looks good. I to am skint most of the time so I know where you are coming from on that score. There are several plans available for simple engines that can be built with a basic toolkit and don't need the use of a lathe, look for designs by Basil Harley, Tubal Cain ( TD Walshaw) and Edgar T Westbury, there is several designs in the Myhobbystore plans list. Here's an example for you to take a look at. Keep up the good work,
Regards,
Nick :-)) :-)) :-))
http://www.myhobbystore.co.uk/product/17458/marine-steam-plant-mm546
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It doesnt look very promising for brass boilers, should i avoid this kit then?
Copper is best for making boilers, Try and get a copy of Building Simple Model Steam Engines by Tubal Cain, a brilliant little book. I have 2 copies infact, you can have one gratis if you want, pm me youe adress and I will bung it in the post.
Regards
Nick.:-)) :-)) :-))
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yes id appreciate that ill pm you
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that site of plans is very good too, the plan you have shown though seems nice and simple. Im now not sure though what route to take. Should i get the kit with the parts or go all scratch build from plans? I can deal with the engines, they either work or they dont but its the boiler im worried about. It will need silver soldering which i havent done, pressure testing and im going to need something like a blowtorch to do it with.
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Hi there, I use a Silverline propane torch got mine brand new from fleabay, came with 3 burners and cost about 20 quid. also, have a look at this website, loads of info on silver soldering, and they sell small amounts of materials, so you wont have to buy industrial quantities.
Regards,
Nick :-)) :-)) :-))
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does it matter what type of torch i use? ive seen this one on ebay and addes to my watch list
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/270954508796?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2648
I dont know if its any good. it says it will go up to 2300F or 1260degC seems like its up to the job. also this i think will be handy for small stuff even if not for steam
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271006242862?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2648
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Hi Mike,
I beleive these torchs are on the toy side.
May be able for soldering pipes but not for larger jobs.. {:-{
Try something like Sievert torch.
My 0.02
Alain
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Ill have a shop around ive noticed those seivert torches go for 70 odd quid.
ive seen these ones too:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/320894109576?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2648
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290660520580?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2648
I think the second one is the better one
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Don't get anything too small.
I had/have a small torch like the first you listed. I was hot enough but not enough of enough.....if you get my meaning. You could heat up a very little bit of work. If you look at my posting HERE (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=30888.msg376635#msg376635), you'll see what I was trying to braze and what torch I ended up buying. The gammon iron in question wasn't very big at all but the small torch's heat was just being whisked away by the metal.
The torch I got was from B&Q and wasn't £70 but it was also not as cheap as the one's you're looking at.
When I was helped to solder my brass boiler, the chap used TWO big torches to get sufficient heat.
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This is a link for correct brazing system :
http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Engineering_Menu_Sievert_LP_Gas_Torches_348.html (http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Engineering_Menu_Sievert_LP_Gas_Torches_348.html)
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i cant afford that i might aswell buy a ready made boiler for that price. I think thats what ill do anyway. Buy the boiler and then make my engines.
i noticed rmaddock that the peice in the cup was tiny. did you need that massive torch to do that?
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Have a look at this one, It has done everything I have asked of it, the regulator is on the same page, brilliant for silver soldering on a budjet.
Regards,
Nick.. :-)) :-)) :-))
http://www.tools4trade.com/d-10473002-silverline-456996-general-purpose-propane-torch-25-35-50mm.aspx
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i saw that one on ebay but it didnt come with gas. I came up with the conclusion this would work:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/320894109576?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2648
Ive just watched this vid on youtube and the extensive heat required to make a boiler
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIJ5SLTGVNc&feature=channel&list=UL
If i go the kit route would the heating gear youve shown be able to do this kit?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kit-build-your-own-model-live-steam-stationary-engine-/400264537685?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item5d31a02655
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Indeed it would, the 50mm burner is amazing, I have used it on 3inch 16 swg copper tube with no problem. Look out for a little book called Soldering and Brazing by Tubal Cain, an excellent book which tells you all you need to know, it is what I learned from and its only a fiver or so and well worth it.
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Soldering-Brazing-Workshop-Practice-Tubal/dp/0852428456
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Mike,
Don't be put off of building your own boiler, the boiler and engine kit that you are considering will be very easy to solder if you follow the makers guide lines.
For the pressures that you will be working on and the volume of the boiler brass is O.K.
Don't use soft solder use silver solder and forget about these burners with the needle flame they are useless for soldering a boiler.
Have a look in B& Q or any other D.I.Y. store for a plumbers blow lamp which won't break the bank to buy one and it will be of use for many jobs in the future.
The problem with brass for a boiler is that some people find a lump of brass tube without info on where it came from or the properties of the brass which can be very porous and dangerous.
Manufacturers of brass boilers can buy large quantities of known brass of constant quality, they have to, to avoid litigation if some thing happens and they can't show proof of quality.
The plumbers blow lamp will also be fine for soldering your engine when you come to make it, so go on mate have a go and join the BURNY FINGER BRIGADE it's great fun, there are plenty of knowledgeable members to help.
George.
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right so it looks like the kit it is. Thanks for clearing that issue up for me george.
Nick unless i can find a glow lamp locally ill go with the one you use. I suppose ill need to source some gas for it. thanks for the help on that fella.
If i am then to use this kit boiler is it then ok to run different engines off it? I have seen some steam engines and boilers use plastic tube from the boiler to the engine. In theory I should be able to connect up what ever engine i want, well within limitations of flow rate of course.
Ive noticed that one you use nick is a propane torch. Ive also noticed butane is another widely used fuel. can i use either or?
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Good Morning Mike, the Silverline torch uses propane. I don't know if you could use butane without changing the jets, others could probably answer that question better than I.I always use screwed connections from boiler to engine, there is always the danger of silicone tubing being forced off by the boiler pressure. Proper unions are cheap enough so why compromise,. Here's where I get my steam fittings from....
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
http://www.steamfittings.co.uk/asp/index.asp
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would this propane fit onto your blow torch do you think?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251035581344?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2648
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No, you would need a proper bottle, the red ones, ( red for propane, blue for butane ), barbeque or patio heater gas. You would need a regulator and a hose to go with the torch, I got the lot in one go as a complete set total cost inc torch was about 25 quin inc postage, I will see if I can find the invoice, as I have forgotten who the supplier was, I know they were on fleabay....
Regards,
Nick :-)) :-)) :-))
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you dont mean one of those big 50kg calour gas type bottles do you?
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I have the 9kg size, the little dumpy one....
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Have a look at this one, It has done everything I have asked of it, the regulator is on the same page, brilliant for silver soldering on a budjet.
Regards,
Nick.. :-)) :-)) :-))
http://www.tools4trade.com/d-10473002-silverline-456996-general-purpose-propane-torch-25-35-50mm.aspx
Those things have the added advantage of being great for clearing patios and driveways of weeds :) A good selling point when putting the purchase past the finance dept
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I have the 9kg size, the little dumpy one....
ill struggle to store that anyway in my house. unless i can fit a small bottle directly to the handle. wouldnt something like this be adequate?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PLUMBER-GAS-HEATING-FITTERS-PIPE-FITTINGS-TOOL-SET-GAS-BLOWTORCH-PROPANE-GAS-/251074954470?pt=UK_DIY_Materials_Plumbing_MJ&hash=item3a753bc4e6
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Those things have the added advantage of being great for clearing patios and driveways of weeds :) A good selling point when putting the purchase past the finance dept
Indeed, she can de weed the patio any time she wants to.... ;) ;) ;)
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Hi
Ref Gas Torch look for a REFILL type eg :- http://www.toolchestdirect.com/product.php/section//sn/PRM2135
Timo2
( over 50years in the tool trade )
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ill struggle to store that anyway in my house. unless i can fit a small bottle directly to the handle. wouldnt something like this be adequate?
That would be fine for making up steam pipes and fittings, It may not be adequate for 2 inch copper or brass as a lot of heat is lost by conduction of heat away from the bits you are wanting to solder, silver soldering temperatures are a lot higher than those required for soft soldering, you may be ok using 2 torches, one as general overall heat and one to supply more concentrated heat to where you are actually soldering. :-)) :-)) :-))
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ive now got 3 contradicting oppinions {:-{ I appreciate the help and i thankyou all. But ooyah2 (george) says a plumbers lamp will do it. Timo2 say that sievert will do it and nick you say they wont do it. Im now pretty confused.
The main tool im after is someting that will make the engines, the parts will be small and intricate but i want them silver soldered or at least soldered so that the engines i build will operate under steam. I am tempted to make the boiler myself and would really like to do it however fitting the end caps as far as i can see is the only job which requires this massive heat and if thats the case then it would possibly make more sense to either borrow a large blow torch or get someone else to do it.
I dont know {:-{
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Hi
Try your Local Model Engineering Club ??? some have club equipment you can hire.
Ref :- Propane Blow Torch if you use refill type it,s cheaper in the long run. plus most have different burner sizes ( Heating down to needle point )
P.S. Propane take you up to 615c check out http://www.sievert.se/default.asp?locId=8&langId=1&pageId=6&areaTypeId=3&areaId=28
Burner no 884204 or new type 333301
Timo2
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Just to confuse you further, I've been advised to use MAPP gas...which can acheive temperatures over 2,000 degress. It's expensive but you get a LOT of heat.
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making the boiler might not happen but i will still be able to make the engines. If i were to buy one of these reasonably priced blow torches, would any of these braze 1/8 brass rods togeather and things? Also seeing as the temperature of the engine wont be as hot as the boiler would brazing be even necessary what about soldering at a lower temperature?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290660520580?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2648
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/390368202088?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2648
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/380183398208?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2648
thanks
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Mike,
I have already suggested that you look at a plumbers blow lamp which will be fine for silver soldering.
Any of the 2- £30 quid jobs will do, my preference would be the PRIMUS and it would also do for soldering a brass boiler.
I think that you are beginning to get a bit confused with all the suggestions on High Temp burners, buy one of the above and have a go.
George.
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thats the problem i am confused there are so many types of lamps and contradicting contributions. I did take note about using a plumbers lamp like you said and it seemed hopeful but then other information cropped saying that these smaller lamps are no good at all for making boiler becuase they dont generate enough heat.
I will get the primus. If i need a bigger lamp ill borrow one.
thanks
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Mike ,
A plumbers blow lamp like the PRIMUS one will be fine and learn how to use silver solder by practicing on some strips of brass.
Soft solder for your engine would be O.K. but the problem arises when you have soldered a joint and you want to make another joint near to the first the whole shebang falls apart, not with silver solder.
I have used a plumbers blow lamp for all sorts of jobs even small copper tanks and boilers and I am confident that the PRIMUS would suit your purpose.
The smaller burners with the needle tip flame are hopeless in my opinion for anything other than soldering small pipes.
Here is a pic of the one that I use to fire my boiler and for general silver soldering which is a plumbers blowlamp head modified to suit my boiler..
George.
(http://s13.postimage.org/kpcbcyvlf/Cervia_burner_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/kpcbcyvlf/)
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hi,
i have had my tamar (20mm burner) BT 3000 brazing torch for must be 15 years runs on butane/propane from b&q.
(butane is no good not hot enough). i have silver solderd 1/8 inch brass rod no problem as long as it is clean (must be clean)
as for 2 inch tube no chance unless you have other backup heat like in the video. also used it for 15mm copper pipe connections no problem as long as you have protection round to stop heat loss if youare in draughty place. look under tamer and you will see what size they are. hope i have not confused you more :-)) %%
davidjt
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hi,
i have had my tamar (20mm burner) BT 3000 brazing torch for must be 15 years runs on butane/propane from b&q.
(butane is no good not hot enough). i have silver solderd 1/8 inch brass rod no problem as long as it is clean (must be clean)
as for 2 inch tube no chance unless you have other backup heat like in the video. also used it for 15mm copper pipe connections no problem as long as you have protection round to stop heat loss if youare in draughty place. look under tamer and you will see what size they are. hope i have not confused you more :-)) %%
davidjt
David,
Absolutely correct about a 2" tube if its copper and depending on the Gauge no chance of soldering..
Mike was considering a brass tube of light gauge which is a different kettle of fish which is very easy to solder with a blow lamp, I say this as I have done it but you have to be careful not to apply too much heat or the brass goes on fire and disappears leaving large holes, done that as well.
As you have said you need to insulate below the the job to avoid heat loss, I wrap ceramic cloth around the tube and it's sitting on a proper brazing hearth.
For larger boilers I use a 1.5" dia flame tube torch that I made with a .025" jet using a 4.5 kg Butane gas bottle., the burner head has a needle valve to adjust the gas flow, been in use now for the last 12 years.
Although I have been successful with brass tube I just don't like brass boilers.
George.
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ill struggle to store that anyway in my house. unless i can fit a small bottle directly to the handle. wouldnt something like this be adequate?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PLUMBER-GAS-HEATING-FITTERS-PIPE-FITTINGS-TOOL-SET-GAS-BLOWTORCH-PROPANE-GAS-/251074954470?pt=UK_DIY_Materials_Plumbing_MJ&hash=item3a753bc4e6
Right I HAVE one of these that I use for SILVER soldering BUTU I must admit I do stuggle a bit with it BUT I use one of these with a SMALL Propane cyinder
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/fc108-gas-torch-with-nozzles
Dave
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thanks for your help lads now all the confusions cleaned up i know where i stand. Im just trialing steam at the minute and theres not much point me getting the big gear yet.
stavros that was the original torch recommended and i was going with until i found out it needed a seperate cylinder to operate. When i say i got limited space i mean it has to all fit in my tool box :embarrassed:
I work on the dining room table so when i braze the boiler i suppose i can do it in the porch. I willl need to look up ceramic cloth and a brazing hearth now. Then illl need to bend me head around types of solder %%
and people say brushless is hard to get to grips {-)
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Ive been busy making another plastic card engine. Its double acting with a slide valve. I think there the right words, have to get the lingo down. Anyway i struggled to source a suitable flywheel so made one out of plasticard with 2 pences peices on it. It does work but i havent got a video yet to prove it. Ill do one tomorrow:
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Hi Mike, CuP alloys do a simple brazing hearth for 38 quid including postage,also heat resistant blankets and vermiculite pads, all quite reasonably priced and free delivery. Your latest engine looka good, have you made it go yet?
Regards,
Nick :-)) :-)) :-))
http://www.cupalloys.co.uk/heating-c107.html
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I sneaked a pic of mike working on his latest creation
(http://community.imaginefx.com/forums/storage/7/278999/MadScientist03.jpg)
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Hi Mike, CuP alloys do a simple brazing hearth for 38 quid including postage,also heat resistant blankets and vermiculite pads, all quite reasonably priced and free delivery. Your latest engine looka good, have you made it go yet?
Regards,
Nick :-)) :-)) :-))
http://www.cupalloys.co.uk/heating-c107.html
I found this one last night, its made of vermiculite, seems like the stuff to have:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Soldering-Mat-Pad-Brick-Board-or-Brazing-Hearth-/110899821396?pt=UK_Crafts_JewelleryMaking_GL&hash=item19d224fb54
Ebay doesnt sell the blanket and that site you mentioned doesnt use paypal. I dont make online payments without paypal. i will ask them though. Im trying to keep it cheap as possible at the minute. A boiler from tony green models is 100 pound, with a 40 quid kit, 20 quid blow torch and 38 pound hearth it would seem more sense eventually going that route at this rate. But i wont learn anything doing that and id rather make my own stuff.
I have just made a vid of the new engine running ill upload it to you tube and put a link here soon
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Morning Mike, you can order from CuP over the 'phone, I don't like online payments either. The bloke ( whose name escapes me) there is really helpful and is prepared to have a chat and offer any help you need. Looking forward to seeing your video, I like the neat little crosshead on your horizontal engine.
Regards,
Nick :-)) :-)) :-))
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Just thinking... would an aquarium pump have enough umph for your tinkering purposes?
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heres a clip on the latest engine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXvcVPAlKnY&feature=youtu.be
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Just thinking... would an aquarium pump have enough umph for your tinkering purposes?
no i dont think so. Im bought an electric car tyre pump. It was on 5 quid so im off out in a bit to get another one i think then run the two in unison threw a t peice from a 3s lipo
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heres a clip on the latest engine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXvcVPAlKnY&feature=youtu.be
Excellent job! Well done... :-)) :-)) :-))
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thanks :-))
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Well im afraid to say this whole steam thing has come to a dead stop for me. The fact of the matter is i cant afford a half decent boiler and dont have the facilities to make my own. I can still make the engines no problem, aye theyl be rough but so am I. Ive thought about using a mamod boiler but these seem rather too small and ive come to understand that the size of the boiler determines the size of the engine and vice versa. Ive noticed that these mamod engines are pretty puny and hardly up to turning a tug propeller which will be my eventual goal.
So im wondering then if anyone on here can either sell me a boiler or make me one for a sensible fee. It will need a glass on it so i can see the water level, size id say hmm about 2.5 inches by 5 inches. thats a bit of a guess for now but at least its bigger than a mamod. fueling well to keep it cheap i could use solid fuel burners but i suppose gas is the way to go.
Anyone?
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Hi Mike, don't give up, there is always a way. Take a look at this link, an excellent little boiler, and not expensive when compared to others on the market. You get a proper job, certificated, and you could get the basic boiler and then add fittings later.
Best wishes,
Nick :-)) :-)) :-))
http://www.maccsteam.com/Horizontal_Marine_boilers/Small_boiler/small_boiler.html
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still costly though isnt it {:-{ I found this but i dont have a cheque book:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tank-for-steam-traction-engine-/330778525319?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item4d03efbe87
dont know what it would require to get it working, a new glass and something for it to sit on i suppose, ohwell.
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Hi Mike, looks ok, you would have to build a firebox for it as there are water tubes along the underside. Gauge glass is easy to get hold of, If you win the bidding for a sensible amount, you will have a nice little boiler there I am sure you could send a postal order, after all,you are more or less buying a cheque from the Post Office. Send the man a message and ask him. In some ways a Postal Order is safer than a cheque as far as the payee is concerned.
Regards,
Nick :-)) :-)) :-))
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Is it important for a steam boiler to have a pressure guage?
thanks
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not really as long as it has a known good safety valve of the right rating for the boiler... but a gauge does make life a lot easier
many of the Mamod and Wilesco steam engines don't have them
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i cant afford the guage for my new boiler but if i can use it without it will have to do {:-{
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Hi Mike, do you have a photo of your new boiler? :-)) :-)) :-))
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yes check out my new thread:
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=39530.msg394717#msg394717
:}