Model Boat Mayhem

The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Steam => Topic started by: muleears on July 03, 2012, 09:20:17 am

Title: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 03, 2012, 09:20:17 am
I know I probably paid too much, but that aside, I have some questions as I am somewhat new to steam.
What engine does this have?  Is that a Krick boiler or a Wilesco?  Any information on where I can get info on this engine?  Thanks much.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261051513918?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: essex2visuvesi on July 03, 2012, 09:24:25 am
Not really given current exchange rates as long as the postage and duty is not too high. Looks a nicely built model.
Can't help you on the engine and boiler tho... my knowledge of steam is still very small
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 03, 2012, 09:41:30 am
Fortunately, postage was $50 as he is only a few states away and exchange rates and duties don't apply.   :-))
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: steamboatmodel on July 03, 2012, 05:01:17 pm
Hi Cal,
Can you post some photos of the engine and boiler ? They used two different boiler engine sets in that model, the first one used wilesco parts and boilers.
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 03, 2012, 06:58:41 pm
Gerald,

I will be more than happy to do so as soon as it is in my hands.  I will not be home to see it arrive, so it may be two weeks or so before I am able. I am looking forward to the assistance in determining what motor and boiler it has.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: bwmarks on July 04, 2012, 02:33:30 am
Muleers,

Great to see another Virginiian using steam. Please let me know where you sail and I'll try to bring my steam boat down. I'm in Mineral VA, at Lake Anna, and in Hartfield in Middlesex County (Between the Piankatank and Rappahannock Rivers). Her's my boat....

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=22737.0
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: logoman on July 07, 2012, 02:47:22 pm
these threads might help

http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/about18998.html

http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/about51231.html
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: KNO3 on July 08, 2012, 05:06:47 pm
That's a Wilesco boiler (more or less same as the current D49 model). The engine was also built using Wilesco parts, not sure if Wilesco or Krick built it though.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 16, 2012, 11:31:43 pm
I just got back home and the boat is supposed to arrive Wednesday, I'll try to have some close up pics up by Thursday.  Thanks for the help.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 18, 2012, 05:13:10 pm
Well, she's here!  These pics are as she arrived right out of the box.


(http://s10.postimage.org/4jy5hdwit/SAM_2839.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4jy5hdwit/)

(http://s10.postimage.org/sc7gswyjp/SAM_2840.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/sc7gswyjp/)

(http://s10.postimage.org/it2dd70f9/SAM_2841.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/it2dd70f9/)

(http://s10.postimage.org/t4eq5us4l/SAM_2842.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/t4eq5us4l/)
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 18, 2012, 05:22:14 pm
And a few more,  What engine is this? Is it a Wilesco or Krick?  It looks like it hasn't been run in a while, should I remove it, disassemble and clean it?  Any suggestions for prep for a test run?  Seller said boiler was tested to 45psi but no certificate was included.


(http://s18.postimage.org/4i39odcwl/SAM_2847.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4i39odcwl/)

(http://s18.postimage.org/u25jusyad/SAM_2848.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/u25jusyad/)

(http://s18.postimage.org/6cg463zx1/SAM_2849.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/6cg463zx1/)

(http://s18.postimage.org/4m1oid7rp/SAM_2850.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/4m1oid7rp/)

(http://s18.postimage.org/cg2a3rfkl/SAM_2851.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/cg2a3rfkl/)
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 18, 2012, 05:29:18 pm
Last batch of pics, (I promise).


(http://s12.postimage.org/w81i2o4uh/SAM_2843.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/w81i2o4uh/)

(http://s12.postimage.org/floj7c1ah/SAM_2844.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/floj7c1ah/)

(http://s12.postimage.org/hssrv96kp/SAM_2845.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/hssrv96kp/)

(http://s12.postimage.org/si6gniidl/SAM_2846.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/si6gniidl/)

What should I clean it with (or NOT clean it with)?  Mild soap (dish soap) or can some mild solvent be used on the engine?    All advice is welcome.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: pettyofficernick on July 18, 2012, 05:31:24 pm
Hi Cal, it is a Krick engine, but, I thank made for them by Wilesco, I had the single cylinder version in my Anna launch, now sold on. It is a piston valve engine, so does not use reversing gear, the regulator reverses the steam flow instead. Looks like it needs a good clean up, should keep you busy for a while. I too had a parcel today, containing a nice shiny Maccsteam vertical boiler and gas tank for my forthcoming African Queen project.
Regards,
Nick :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 18, 2012, 05:49:21 pm
Hi Cal, it is a Krick engine, but, I thank made for them by Wilesco, I had the single cylinder version in my Anna launch, now sold on. It is a piston valve engine, so does not use reversing gear, the regulator reverses the steam flow instead. Looks like it needs a good clean up, should keep you busy for a while. I too had a parcel today, containing a nice shiny Maccsteam vertical boiler and gas tank for my forthcoming African Queen project.
Regards,
Nick :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))

Looks like we both have some work to do!  What should I clean the engine with and are there any gaskets I will destroy if I do so?  Do you know the model number of this engine?
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: pettyofficernick on July 18, 2012, 06:09:20 pm
I think it may be a Krick No2, your Victoria probably shows one on the plans.Best way to clean, de grease first, try and avoid stripping the engine, lest you upset the timimg, the only gaskets are for the steam connections, I made some from the little piece of thick paper found at the end of a cigarette paper packet. Polish everything up with some fine wire wool and lubricate with some light machine oil, there are 2 little lubricators on the sides of the valve chests, these will need cleaning out, and you could inject a bit of degreaser into the valve chests and turn the engine over to de-gunk the valves and inside the cylinders. You cannot dismantle the cylinder assemblies as they are pressed tohether and possibly soldered as well.
Have fun,
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: steamboatmodel on July 18, 2012, 10:02:24 pm
I have a D48 Wilesco engine boiler outfit, which is very similar. I use detergent on the outside of the engine for cleaning it. I have had little problems with the engine itself but have found the boiler too small.
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 18, 2012, 10:56:20 pm
Thank you Gerald, I'll try that.  I was considering putting some steam oil in the oilers and turning it over a few times, or should I just take the heads off and put a drop in each cylinder?
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 18, 2012, 11:16:12 pm
I just noticed  %), that two of the steam lines on my new boat appear to be silicone rubber!  One is in the supply line to the engine and the other the "exhaust" which goes through the side of the hull.  They both appear to have been done to make plumbing easier and for easy removal of the boiler.  I know silicone can stand some heat but will it hold  up to 40+ psi?  Or should I just plumb these properly?


(http://s10.postimage.org/q2nr9miz9/SAM_2853.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/q2nr9miz9/)
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: pettyofficernick on July 19, 2012, 12:52:13 am
Silicone tubing is the way early Krick engines are usually plumbed in. I altered my single cylinder version to solid pipework, but remember, the threads on the boiler and engine are metric.the cylinders are a sealed unit and I dont think you will be easily able to get the heads off, so flushing with oil is probably your best bet. Heres a link to some more info,
Regards,
Nick. :-) :-)

http://www.cedesign.net/steam/brass.htm

(http://s19.postimage.org/nlqittekv/Krik_No_2_engine.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/nlqittekv/)
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 19, 2012, 01:30:13 am
I pulled the caps off the oilers and turned the motor over and put a drop in each oiler.  As I turned it the oil was quickly sucked in.  I kept doing this until I had about 4-5 drops into each oiler and the motor began to make a squishing sound as I turned it.  Sounded like it had plenty of oil inside.  I also shot some butane into the tank and fired up the burner.  It seemed to work as designed.  So far things are looking good.  The boat itself needs a little cleaning, but it seems to be structurally sound.  I also put batteries in and tried the radio.  It worked but I wasn't impressed.  It is the cheapest, 2 channel Futaba I have ever seen.  The sticks each only have one axis and neither returns to center when released.  Fortunately I have a 6 ch. JR that will do nicely for both boats.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: steamboatmodel on July 19, 2012, 07:04:48 pm
The cylinder heads are not designed to be removable. I added a in line displacement lubricator instead of using the small cylinder ones. The fuel tank on yours looks larger than the one for the D48. I use the silicone fuel line on mine with no problem, I just give a couple of wraps of copper wire around where it joins.
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 20, 2012, 07:03:40 pm
Well, I got it running!  Put a little butane in the tank, filled the boiler halfway with hot water and lit the burner.....   and waited.....     After several minutes I could see the water boiling in the gauge so I applied some throttle via the radio....   nothing.  I just saw the crank nudge a tiny bit.  Waited another minute or two then decided to give the prop a push.  Viola! it started running.  Not fast mind you, but it was running.  So I experimented a little for the next 5 minutes, slowing down, speeding up etc.  What I have determined so far is that it will not self start, it needs a nudge to get going.  Also runs one direction much better than the other.  Didn't seem to have an abundance of steam either, after two or three minutes of running it would slow.  Considering I have next to zero experience with these, I had a Wilesco D5 stationary when I was 12 (40 years ago). What should I do next? Make sure I have sufficient oil? Turn up the heat on the boiler?  I will try to make a video, but I have never done that and uploaded one before.  Any suggestions on overcoming these problems will be appreciated.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: pettyofficernick on July 20, 2012, 07:39:55 pm
Hi Cal, make sure the timing is correct and that the cranks are set at 90 degrees to one another, on my little one the crank disc was secured to the shaft by a grubscrew, it may have slipped, to self start the cranks need to be at 90 Deg. I will try and find the instructions for my single cylinder version, which uses the same cylinders,I will try and photograph them and send them to you or post them here if that is allowed. Have you looked at Krick's website, you may get some info there.
Keep at it,
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 20, 2012, 09:40:52 pm
Hi Cal, make sure the timing is correct and that the cranks are set at 90 degrees to one another, on my little one the crank disc was secured to the shaft by a grubscrew, it may have slipped, to self start the cranks need to be at 90 Deg. I will try and find the instructions for my single cylinder version, which uses the same cylinders,I will try and photograph them and send them to you or post them here if that is allowed. Have you looked at Krick's website, you may get some info there.
Keep at it,
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))

Here is two pics of the engine, one from each end showing the crank position.  I did not move the flywheel between pics.  It appears they are slightly more than 90*, should I try to change it or are they "close enough"?


(http://s13.postimage.org/oayvr6uoz/SAM_2854.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/oayvr6uoz/)



(http://s11.postimage.org/hwa6sz7gf/SAM_2855.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/hwa6sz7gf/)
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 22, 2012, 02:41:07 pm
Another couple questions.  In the picture below, in the red box is a small bolt that connects the upper and lower portions of the connecting rod (forgive me if that is the wrong terminilogy), this bolt doesn't turn easily but it also doesn't appear to be tight. I realize some play is necessary to avoid binding, but is this amount excessive?


(http://s7.postimage.org/hjw7jfbjr/SAM_2856.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/hjw7jfbjr/)

In the pic below, in the yellow box is a opening that would allow access to the crankshaft, is this an "oiler" for the crank and should it be filled with oil?



(http://s8.postimage.org/98fkm1i35/SAM_2856.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/98fkm1i35/)


Thanks again for any and all advice.  If anyone has any instructions to this model engine they would be greatly appreciated, either via link, .pdf or any other method.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: pettyofficernick on July 22, 2012, 03:50:14 pm
Hi Cal, It all looks abour right, Dont worry about the pin in the connecting rod, it needs a certain amount of play in it, and any where you find a oiler, put oil in, the crankshaft bearings need to be kept well oiled for obvious reasons. I am still looking for some instructions, I have them somewhere!
Regards,
Nick.  :-)) :-)) :-))
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 22, 2012, 06:23:41 pm
Thanks Nick, I filled the crankshaft oilers and it seems to turn somewhat easier, might be my imagination though!  I also pulled the caps on the other oilers and I would put a drop in (thats all it would take at one time) turn the crank a half turn and it would suck it right in.  I did this several times and began to wonder, just how much should go in? There doesn't seem to be a reservoir of any size. Also, after doing this it seemed to turn harder.  Could I have put too much oil in the cylinders?  Thanks again.

Cal
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: pettyofficernick on July 22, 2012, 06:48:04 pm
Sounds like you have got too much oil in the cylinders now, open the regulator and turn the engine over and the excess oil will dribble out of the steam inlet and exhaust. :-)) :-)) :-))
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 22, 2012, 07:20:21 pm
Thanks Nick, will give it a try. Thats what I suspected.  So I don't do this again  %) Should I just put a drop or two in before each run? Is that sufficient?
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: pettyofficernick on July 22, 2012, 09:14:20 pm
once you fill the oiler and screw the cap on the flow of oil will slow down, just a little will be picked up by the steam and carried into the cylinders to do its work. :-)) :-)) :-))
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 22, 2012, 09:40:19 pm
Update:  Just ran it about 20 minutes, ran out of gas before it ran out of steam.  I thought the butane tank was full, I guess not.  Anyway, it still needed a push to start.  Maybe I didn't wait for enough pressure but the water was boiling in the gauge. Initially it didn't want to run in reverse at all, but after a few more minutes of running forward and several nudges, it finally began to run in reverse, but slowly.  Did my excess oil have something to do with this? I got a phone call in the middle of this run and let it sit idle for about 3 minutes. When restarted (forward, which it did on its own) it ran faster than it had been running.  I guess the pause had built up a little more pressure.  It doesn't have a gauge so I don't know for sure.

It appears I am slowly making progress, both in experience and knowledge of this boat.  I will continue to fiddle with the engine, but the next project is a good cleaning then replacing the radio.  Currently the servos are loose and move when utilized and the battery pack is located in such a manner as to interfere with the rudder linkage.  Must get these taken care of before I even think about putting it in any real water.  I have a large garden tub, maybe that will be next! :-))  As long as Mrs. doesn't find out! :D 

Thank you again for all the help.

Cal
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: pettyofficernick on July 23, 2012, 12:17:45 am
Let the boiler pressure build up until the safety valve just begins to lift, that will indicate that the boiler has reached working pressure, keep the oilers topped up and she will soon be running smoothly, my guess is it needs a few good runs with plenty of oil to free everything up after lying idle for a long time. keep tinkering with it and you will soon get to know it's running characteristics.
Regards,
Nick :-)) :-))
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: steamboatmodel on July 23, 2012, 02:09:00 pm
Cal what oil are you using? The bearing require normal oil the the cylinders need Steam Oil.
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 23, 2012, 08:30:09 pm
Cal what oil are you using? The bearing require normal oil the the cylinders need Steam Oil.
Regards,
Gerald.

I'm glad you told me that Gerald, I was using steam oil for both.  When you say "normal oil" do you mean I can use automotive motor oil?  Such as a full synthetic multi grade?  Or should I use plain old 3N 1?  Should I flush and clean the steam oil out of the crank bearings?  My steam oil is "6% Cylinder Oil for Steam Engines and Pumps"  I believe I got it from one of the usual suppliers.  Anything else I need to be aware of, oil wise?
Thanks for the advice.

Cal
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: pettyofficernick on July 23, 2012, 08:33:30 pm
Hi Cal, forgot to mention that, I use 3in 1 for bearings, no need to strip them down, the 3 in 1 will flush it through.....
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: derekwarner on July 23, 2012, 11:59:51 pm
Guys......sewing machine oil is light enough for model steam bearing applications and also in small handy spouted plastic bottles which is good for reaching into the engine crank structure or eccentrics O0

If the engine has oil cups on the crankshaft & the engine is old........you could take a conventional cotton bud [or two]  ...strip  :o the cotton & refill each cup.........Derek
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 24, 2012, 12:22:01 am
That's a good idea, we already have one of those for our sewing machine too.

OT question:  I have made a 60 second video of the engine running, how do I upload a video?  Do I have to put it on YouTube and post a link?  Or is there a way to post directly?   
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: pettyofficernick on July 24, 2012, 12:46:57 am
I think uploading to utube and posting a link is the way to go, I'm not sure if you can post video here, as there may be a space issue with the server, but I may be wrong....
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: Martin (Admin) on July 24, 2012, 10:29:09 am
 
...... nope, you completely correct pettyofficerNick!

 YouTube is setup for just this sort of thing,... and do it very well.  :-))
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: steamboatmodel on July 24, 2012, 07:59:15 pm
Hi Cal,
Most of the others beat me to it, you can use just about anything on the bearings. I think my bottle is a mixture of 3 in 1 and straight 30 W oil. The cylinder oil is the correct one I think mine was labeled "Texaco 460", I was given some by one of the engineers at the refinery (fortunately as long as you keep the air out it won't turn rancid).
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 24, 2012, 11:16:17 pm
First attempt at posting a video! Please let me know if it doesn't work!   Also let me know what you think of how the motor runs, seems kind of slow to me and it's running full throttle.  If it's not obvious from the video, this is with no load.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tMTpENFU6A&feature=plcp

Thanks,
Cal
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: derekwarner on July 24, 2012, 11:32:31 pm
Cal...naturally the video displays OK ....congratulations on the purchase  O0

I am sure the sound is amplified by the kitchen sink  {-)
The overboard discharge ...is this normal...is there a de-oiler?
The engine speed is difficult judge....have you compared the engine running by itself out of the vessel or with the prop shaft disconnected?
As Nick has said ...."Let the boiler pressure build up until the safety valve just begins to lift"
What pressure is the boiler providing?
The engine flywheel seems to have a wobble  >:-o.......is it secured by a grub screw?

Please post another video displaying more of the engine when under steam.....Derek  :-))
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: pettyofficernick on July 25, 2012, 12:03:30 am
I woud say your engine is running at a nice steady pace, if it runs too fast, it will just guzzle all the steam up for no real extra power. She will run even slower when in the water, but with a nice coarse prop she should run quite well. When the engine is actually doing some work, it will go slower, use less steam but still deliver some useful  power. It looks like the exhaust is sent directly overboard, you should think about fitting an oil seperator, otherwise steam oil in the exhaust could find its way into the lake, possibly enraging other model boaters by making their nice paint jobs all oily, also keeps the 'fluffy bunny' brigade happy. Be nice to see a video of her on the water. You have done a grand job so far.
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 25, 2012, 01:48:41 am
Cal...naturally the video displays OK ....congratulations on the purchase  O0

I am sure the sound is amplified by the kitchen sink  {-)
The overboard discharge ...is this normal...is there a de-oiler?
The engine speed is difficult judge....have you compared the engine running by itself out of the vessel or with the prop shaft disconnected?
As Nick has said ...."Let the boiler pressure build up until the safety valve just begins to lift"
What pressure is the boiler providing?
The engine flywheel seems to have a wobble  >:-o.......is it secured by a grub screw?

Please post another video displaying more of the engine when under steam.....Derek  :-))

Derek,

To answer your questions (as best as I can):
I thought the sink added a nice echo, didn't you?   {-)
The overboard discharge is as it arrived, I have seen several other boats with this arrangement.  There is/was no de-oiler with the boat.
I have not run the engine out of the boat, I do know the running gear turns very smoothly and with no friction.
I suspect both you and Nick are right about my not letting enough pressure build, I don't believe I have ever let it build enough to begin to lift the safety valve. Perhaps I will have time tomorrow to try again.
I don't know the pressure as it doesn't have a gauge.
I will investigate the wobble in the flywheel.

Thank you for all your great advice.

Cal
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 25, 2012, 02:04:01 am
I woud say your engine is running at a nice steady pace, if it runs too fast, it will just guzzle all the steam up for no real extra power. She will run even slower when in the water, but with a nice coarse prop she should run quite well. When the engine is actually doing some work, it will go slower, use less steam but still deliver some useful  power. It looks like the exhaust is sent directly overboard, you should think about fitting an oil seperator, otherwise steam oil in the exhaust could find its way into the lake, possibly enraging other model boaters by making their nice paint jobs all oily, also keeps the 'fluffy bunny' brigade happy. Be nice to see a video of her on the water. You have done a grand job so far.
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))

Nick,
The prop appears to be the one that came with the kit, I am not an expert but I don't think it has enough pitch, especially if the engine is going to run at those RPM's. Plus, it is plastic (yuck) it needs a brass prop.  Any suggestions on size/pitch?

Yes, it does have an over the side discharge, I will look into a "chuff pot" (if that is what they are called.) I have a small antique brass torch that I may be able to fashion into one.  You are right I don't want the fish and bug people on my case as a polluter!

Thanks again for all the advice.  I really need to get back to the Victoria, and get her finished and ready to sail.  According to the Ebay auction, this boat had been rebuilt by an "expert modeller".  I find that highly suspect as I see many small shortcuts that had been taken in construction. I think the Victoria will look better than this "expert" built model.  I guess we will see... ;)
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: derekwarner on July 25, 2012, 04:17:49 am
 >>:-( <*< goes to the original builder Cal if they didn't install a pressure gauge  {:-{

The model pressure gauges we see in most models......those 3/4"diameter beautiful brass bodied units & they are accurate to +/- 10 % on full scale which is great...however without a gauge & if an incident occured where the relief valve failed to open & ..... >:-o an injury ...... well the  :police: could be involved  O0

No matter how attractive the e-bay purchase was........ :o every model steam boiler requires a relief valve & hence a pressure gauge....& most probably a boiler test certificate  :-)) which also embodies the function of the relief valve .....keep us posted......Derek

Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: pettyofficernick on July 25, 2012, 08:50:49 am
Good morning Cal, As Derek says, always best to have a pressure gauge, but Krick did not fit these on their early engines, nor did they supply a boiler test certificate The brass boilers on these engines, unfortunately, are not very good, and they are only soft soldered, the example I had failed around the joint between the sight glass and the boiler shell and I had to re solder it and brass is not the best boilermaking material my local boiler tester refused to test mine, you only need to compare it to Mike Abbot of Maccsteam's work to see the difference. Lagging will help keep some of the heat in. I would go for the biggest prop that will fit in the available space, with a pitch that is near to or equal to the diameter.I am sure Victoria will be a much better job, get back to it, I,m waiting for the photos of the finished job. Personally, I always suspect things that have been done by 'experts'  ex = a has been, and a spert = a drip under pressure. Off to the lake now to sail my Victoria while the suns out.
Take care,
Regards,
Nick :-)) :-)) :-))
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 26, 2012, 02:28:27 am
I just ordered a pressure gauge and adapter from PM Research, it should be here early next week.  As far as the pressure cert for the boiler, I have no idea where to go.  I have one for my Macsteam, but that was done in the UK.  I'll do some research and see what I can find.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: derekwarner on July 26, 2012, 03:22:43 am
Cal.....a model club...be it marine or railway should have a contact for a person qualified to test & certify boilers O0....Derek
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: pettyofficernick on July 26, 2012, 08:55:06 am
Hi Cal, you may have difficulty fitting a pressure gauge to your boiler, the PM research gauge and siphon is threaded 3/16 x 40,  you krick boiler was made in Germany, so has metric threads, if, indeed there is a bush to fit a gauge in the first place, and when I tried to get my example tested, the boiler tester refused to test it, due to the method of construction. Do you have a Wilesco dealer in the US, they will be a better source for a gauge for your boiler as they manufactured these boilers for Krick. You may, in the end, have to rely on the safety valve to indicate when the boiler has reached working pressure. There is a suitable pressure gauge here
http://www.ministeam.com/acatalog/Wilesco_Parts.html
A phone call to Ministeam will help to point you in the right direction.
Best of luck,
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 26, 2012, 10:51:12 am
Hi Cal, you may have difficulty fitting a pressure gauge to your boiler, the PM research gauge and siphon is threaded 3/16 x 40,  you krick boiler was made in Germany, so has metric threads, if, indeed there is a bush to fit a gauge in the first place, and when I tried to get my example tested, the boiler tester refused to test it, due to the method of construction. Do you have a Wilesco dealer in the US, they will be a better source for a gauge for your boiler as they manufactured these boilers for Krick. You may, in the end, have to rely on the safety valve to indicate when the boiler has reached working pressure. There is a suitable pressure gauge here
http://www.ministeam.com/acatalog/Wilesco_Parts.html
A phone call to Ministeam will help to point you in the right direction.
Best of luck,
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))

Nick,
Thanks for the part link, I had looked at boiler accessories but didn't find that. I will contact MiniSteam today.  Lets hope their customer service is better than last time... %)

Derek,
That's good advice, I don't know of any steam clubs but I do have the number of a man nearby who has a large  steam locomotive collection. He may be able to help.

Also a question:  The tank/burner combination I have, is it made to only burn butane? or can I burn propane in it also?  The camp stove/lantern fuel available here is (I believe) propane.

Cal
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: pettyofficernick on July 26, 2012, 11:21:48 am
Hi Cal, I wouldn't put neat  propane in your gas tank as the storage pressures are a lot higher than for butane, try looking for 60% butane/40%propane mix, as supplied for plumbers blow torches, that is pretty much the standard here in the UK. As regards boiler testing, you need the manufacturers safe working pressure for that particular boiler as a starting point, otherwise the tester will not know what pressure to test the boiler at, (normally 2 x working pressure) that was one of the problems I had when I tried to get mine tested, as the manufacturer does not seem to state the SWP in any of his documentation, you could try emailing Krick in Germany, or ask the guys at Ministeam.
Hope this helps,
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 26, 2012, 11:31:35 am
What I wanted to use is "Coleman Fuel" which is the stuff used for the torches and such that you mentioned. That is a common brand name here in the states, I will check the label to see if it shows contents and percentages.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: nick_75au on July 26, 2012, 11:46:36 am
The gas you want will be in the aerosol type canisters, 100 % propane is only kept in the heavy steel cylinders. Coleman fuel is a butane Propane mix which will be OK the percentages can vary we use to sell (camping store) only 90% butane/10% propane due to the high temps here.

Australia has a code for "sub miniature boilers" which is used by model engineering societies which under 29.4 PSI  and 77 mm diameter allows boilers made of brass (still recommends copper) and with no pressure gauge, these have been considered a good guideline regardless of country.

AMBSC Code Part 3

Nick
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: pettyofficernick on July 26, 2012, 12:21:14 pm
Here in the UK we have the 3 bar/litre rule, ie. The 3 bar-litre limit is defined as the internal volume of the boiler (in litres) multiplied by the working pressure (in bar)
Where 1 bar = 14.5038 lb/inČ and 1 litre = 1.76 pints. if the result of the calculation falls below 3 bar/litres, a certificate is not required, although some insurance companies still require one. It all depends on the requirements in different countries I suppose.
Have fun,
Nick :-)) :-)) :-))
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: steamboatmodel on July 26, 2012, 10:18:45 pm
Hi Cal,
The Colman Camping fuel (Butane/Propane) will work fine, you should also check some of the Asian grocery stores for the Butane cans that go in the table top burners, I have found some at a $1 a can and they work well in the hot summer weather. For a Boiler Certificate check with your local state authorities as to whether one is required. Most of the small toy type boilers fall under an exemption in most state and Canadian Provinces. The boiler for my D48 did but when I had to repair it I did a hydrostatic test on it. I think you will find that the Safety Valve is set around 25psi and is threaded 6M.
Regards,
Gerald. 
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: bwmarks on July 27, 2012, 12:15:10 am
I bought some "Brunton"  gas at gander http://www.expeditionexchange.com/brunton/  for my Hemmens boiler - it has the right connection for the filling extension I got from Hemmens
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: derekwarner on July 27, 2012, 12:45:17 am
in OZ  ...those little squat 200 gm disposable EN16 threaded tanks are about $5.50 each which is highway robbery  >>:-( :police:
as it equals $0.0275/gm...or $27.50/kg or $27,500.00/tonne  %%

So I purchased a 200 gm refillable tank from Sandy Campbell and now use Gasmate 200 gm disposable containers from Coles or K-Mart for $12.00 for a six pack.........  O0....they don't use the EN16 thread...but fit directly into the Ronson type valves in the refillable onboard gas tank

Derek   :-))
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: southsteyne2 on July 27, 2012, 01:28:04 am
I do not wish to cause alarm but as you say the pressure is unknown I STRONGLY advise checking the safety valve and fitting a pressure gauge suitable for your boiler and then the boiler pressure tested, once the working pressure is established then you will be able to properly test your engine  so if I were you I would leave the engine be and concentrate on the above mentioned for your own and possibly others safety.
John
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 27, 2012, 09:37:07 am
This is what I am talking about using:


(http://s14.postimage.org/yg66dvef1/coleman_fuel.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/yg66dvef1/)

My concern is that is just says "propane", it doesn't say anything about a butane mix.  But this is what is used to fuel torches and camping stoves and lanterns.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: pettyofficernick on July 27, 2012, 10:06:29 am
Morning Cal, I have just tried to find the specifications for the gas in your photo, all I can find is an advertisement that says that this gas works at temperatures as low as minus 40 degrees, which leads me to believe it is pure propane, try doing a search for 60% butane 40% propane mix.
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: nick_75au on July 27, 2012, 11:40:10 am
Wallmart link for what you need to use, these are a much lighter gauge steel than the 100% propane cylinders.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Coleman-Butane-Propane-Mix-Fuel/20595064 (http://www.walmart.com/ip/Coleman-Butane-Propane-Mix-Fuel/20595064)

Nick
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: ooyah/2 on July 27, 2012, 12:24:15 pm
This is what I am talking about using:


(http://s14.postimage.org/yg66dvef1/coleman_fuel.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/yg66dvef1/)

My concern is that is just says "propane", it doesn't say anything about a butane mix.  But this is what is used to fuel torches and camping stoves and lanterns.


Cal,
This type of container is of no use to you as you can't refill your existing fuel tank with it.
As Gerald has already said you can get the cans of lighter fuel at some of the Asian Supermarkets , these cans have a nozzle that fits into the Ronson type filler in your tank.


(http://s9.postimage.org/ql8ekp4wb/Lighter_fuel_can.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ql8ekp4wb/)

You don't need a pressure gauge in your boiler, it was never designed to have one, there isn't a boiler bush to allow you to fit one.

If you are a bit cautious in firing up your boiler, once you have found a supplier of the gas, take the tank out of the boat, there are keyhole slots in your tank base
to allow you to, and fill the tank until it over flows at the filler valve.  Never fill the tank with the it installed in the boat, always outside.
Set the steam plant up about 6 ft away from you and fire it up until the safety valve blows, which will be about 20 p.s.i. and this will let you know if it's working, if not before it blows off you will see steam leaks from any unsafe joint so shut down immediately and seek some help from somebody witha knowledge of boilers.
Personally I don't think that you will have any trouble.
Wilesco must have sold thousands of this plants and many of your country men successfully run them without any mishaps, so get some gas and have a go.

Happy steaming

George.  
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: Circlip on July 27, 2012, 01:01:46 pm
You are a tormenting devil George, what's the "Lump"?????

  Regards  Ian.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: southsteyne2 on July 27, 2012, 02:47:00 pm
 <*<Sounds good George light the wick and stand back great way to advise a newcomer to live steam
John
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: pettyofficernick on July 27, 2012, 04:35:51 pm
Butane propane (as recommended by Mike at Maccsteam is best, use the same gas as you use for your Maccsteam boiler and you won't go wrong, you can get an adapter to fit on to blowlamp/camping stove cylinders, an example of which is shown in the photo. I have also included a webpage with some useful information about tanks, burners etc.
Kind regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))


http://www.forest-classics.co.uk/ceramic_burners.htm
(http://s19.postimage.org/eeb8wmetr/BIX019_Refill_adaptor_NEW.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/eeb8wmetr/)
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: steamboatmodel on July 27, 2012, 05:48:10 pm
The ones Nick and George are the ones to use. Do NOT use the one pound steel propane bottles as that is straight propane and not suitable for your type of tank. The problem with using straight propane is the pressure it reaches as the temperature increases (The heavy steel tank is there for a reason), I have included a link which shows the various temperatures and mixes;
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/propane-butane-mix-d_1043.html
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: ooyah/2 on July 27, 2012, 06:12:06 pm
<*<Sounds good George light the wick and stand back great way to advise a newcomer to live steam
John

Yes John, it's quite irresponsible to pass this advice to a newcomer.
I should have said 60 yds and I forgot to mention the 6 ft high wall of sand bags all around with a hole to view with binoculars.

How else can a newcomer who lives in the middle of a continent with nobody near him to get him up and steaming but to give it a try ?
Perhaps you are one of those that think boilers explode, they don't , if there is a leak it becomes very visible by firstly a weep of steam at a joint and any responsible person would shut down immediately.

I should hate to think that Cal would sit and look at his steam plant waiting for somebody to come and hydraulic test his boiler , which I may add isn't neccessary.
I think that Wilesco would fit a pressure gauge if required and they would state the working pressure as it left them, but they don't.

I am no way blase in the safe operation of steam plants but common sense should prevail, there is no more danger in a steam plant than crossing the road.

So Cal I stand by what I have said , give it a go .

Happy steaming.

George.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: ooyah/2 on July 27, 2012, 06:13:50 pm
You are a tormenting devil George, what's the "Lump"?????

  Regards  Ian.

Ian,
It's a Stuart Launch engine that I am at present building with some mods that I think necessary

George..
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: Circlip on July 27, 2012, 06:18:41 pm
'Course, you mentioned earlier, All zimmers again. %)

  Regards  Ian.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: john s 2 on July 27, 2012, 09:03:17 pm
Yes the three bar rule does exist. It is best to find out if your clubs insurence allows this. My clubs insurence does not ,so a test certificate is needed. Im always amazed at how many people find steam frightening. My usual reply is what pressure is your Coffee frother working at? What about your steam cleaner or pressure cooker? Do you test them? Answer no. Why not? Blank look. John.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: geoff p on July 28, 2012, 04:10:55 am
I'm with George (Ooyah2) on this:  somewhere I have a YouTube-type movie of a well-known European manufacturer making boilers, which are thin-wall, brass and soft-soldered.  If the maker deemed a pressure gauge necessary, you can be sure they would fit it.

John s2 reminded me of my desperate attempts to make steam-enough to test one of my oscillators - I 'stuffed' a flexible hose to where the relief-valve normally goes on my pressure cooker.  I've no idea what pressure it was and it doesn't matter, I was getting a fair amount of steam.  This all stopped when the plastic pipe softened in the gas-cooker flame, bulged under steam-pressure, and popped.  End of experiment.

I can't imagine most of you lot giving your children a Mamod steam engine 'toy' to learn with, yet how many of you actually got one as a Crimble present and had a lot of fun, linking it with your Meccano etc.?

Don't be such humbugs, let Muleears fire up his engine and enjoy.

Geoff
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 28, 2012, 10:59:40 am
A couple of you may have missed reply #40, it contains a video of the boiler fired up and the engine running! I don't believe the safety valve even began to lift.  I kept it at full throttle for the entire run.  I don't know what pressure the safety valve is set for but it does move freely. 

George has a good point, there are no clubs anywhere near me and a google search returned nothing of use as far as model boiler certification (in the states anyway). Maybe another member in the USA can shed some light on this.

Getting back to the fuel question, what is the advantage of a butane/propane mix versus straight butane?
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: southsteyne2 on July 28, 2012, 11:53:32 am
Boy burned as toy steam engine erupts in flames

11:35am Tuesday 16th October 2007 in News

A FIVE-year-old boy suffered horrific burns after being badly burned when a working model steam engine allegedly "burst into flames".

Spencer Connolly, of Sidlaw Road, Billingham, Cleveland had severe injuries that left him in a "critical" condition in hospital and needing operations and skin grafts to repair the damage.

Another boy was also seriously injured and two other children, including Spencer's eight year old sister, Georgia, were hurt.

It has prompted an investigation by trading standards chiefs, who are trying to establish exactly what happened.

But officials say they are not aware of any similar incidents involving the Mamod model traction engine, which has been sold for many years.

The youngsters were at a relative's home when the accident happened.

It is understood a teenage boy had the model steam engine at the time.

Spencer's father Shane Connolly, 31 said: "My two kids have told us what has happened.

"Apparently there was a massive bang. It has literally burst into flames. The next thing there are two kids on fire."

He said his son was "burned from top to toe".

"He was in intensive care for the first seven days. We didn't know whether he would live or die."

Spencer was rushed to James Cook University Hospital after the accident.
I am sure because of limited news there were many other incidents in the old days we never heard about.
John
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: john s 2 on July 28, 2012, 11:12:11 pm
This sounds like the meths version.Now solid fuel is used. I was aware of an American incident. Sadly to many people would overfill the fuel burner. What was a young child doing so near? Possibly he tipped it? This could with overfilled burner result in flames.Just a thought was petrol being wrongly used? Sad that injury occured. John
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: pettyofficernick on July 29, 2012, 01:55:54 am
This sounds like the meths version.Now solid fuel is used. I was aware of an American incident. Sadly to many people would overfill the fuel burner. What was a young child doing so near? Possibly he tipped it? This could with overfilled burner result in flames.Just a thought was petrol being wrongly used? Sad that injury occured. John
Definately, I had a Mamod donkey engine when I was a boy, had many a 'near miss' with the meths burner, a sort of open tray with a perforated screen over the top, fill with meths, chuck a match on and hope you hadn't spilled any. these days that sort of thing wouldn't be allowed. %) %) %) %)
Regards,
Nick.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: derekwarner on July 29, 2012, 04:52:53 am
Guys......this thread is typical of Mayhem  O0

1. the thoughts offered by those who err on the side of safety
2. the comments offered by those who take a diametrically opposed view and suggest that if the manufacturer built it.... it must be OK  >:-o...and an obscure Bar [pressure/volume] rating rule may apply  <*< so why worry?

In reality, there is only one accepted stance & that is if an owner of such a device wishes to use the steam assembly in a public environment then the local ruling conditions will apply

I do remember some 50 years ago..... %) ...the father of a current member building some "a sort of open tray with a perforated screen over the top, fill with meths, chuck a match on and hope you hadn't spilled any"

The only thing was .....  {:-{ ..... that I was not allowed to strike the match.......thanks Dad  :-))

Derek

 
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: Circlip on July 29, 2012, 07:41:32 am
You've missed the 2a type derek.

   The one that says "Stuff you, it's my money and I'll do what I like."

  The type ones are those who are desperately trying to keep their rights to operate safely and not have to justify to the "authorities" a knee jerk blanket ban created by the actions of numpties.

  No sensationalism in the explosive story? Bovine excreata, tradgedy sells newsprint and why compromise a good story by contaminating it with the truth.

   On another thread, it has been expounded about a "Failsafe" element with regards to model aircraft setting fire to a cornfield and "Who is to blame" What actually caused the fire? Construction material of Aircraft? Lipo battery? Powerline it hit? Would a failsafe have helped? Was one actually fitted.

 In playing with our own toys which contain two potentially dangerous components, Fire and Steam, if you want to do your "Own" thing fine, but please do it far enough away from those who may be affected by your stupidity.

  Regards  Ian.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 29, 2012, 04:19:37 pm
Gosh gentlemen, I didn't mean to start such an exchange.  I simply want to know the difference, advantages, disadvantages of pure butane vs. butane propane mix.  I can buy butane in 300ml cans for about $3,  (2 GBP if my conversion is correct).  Propane is cheaper and the mix is hard to find.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: pettyofficernick on July 29, 2012, 04:54:31 pm
Hi Cal, if butane is the easiest one to get, then use that, the calorific values are not much different, the advantage of having a little propane mixed with the butane is that it lowers the temperature at which the gas vaporizes, butane freezes at about -2 where as propane is a lot lower, which means it will work better in cold weather.
Regards,
Nick :-)) :-)) :-))
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: ooyah/2 on July 29, 2012, 05:00:12 pm
Gosh gentlemen, I didn't mean to start such an exchange.  I simply want to know the difference, advantages, disadvantages of pure butane vs. butane propane mix.  I can buy butane in 300ml cans for about $3,  (2 GBP if my conversion is correct).  Propane is cheaper and the mix is hard to find.

Cal,
I have to agree with Nick, go for the Butane.
As your burner is attached to the tank this will transfer heat to the tank and keep the pressure up and give you a good burn.
You may have to buy a connector to transfer the gas to your existing tank, the type that Nick has previously suggested.
George.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 29, 2012, 05:03:15 pm
Thanks Nick, I don't plan on running it anywhere near those temps so that shouldn't be a problem for me. If it's not at least 10*C I won't be running it.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 29, 2012, 05:12:37 pm
Thanks, George.  I believe I will order some butane.  My 300ml. can is running low!
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: ooyah/2 on July 29, 2012, 05:42:59 pm
Guys......this thread is typical of Mayhem  O0

1. the thoughts offered by those who err on the side of safety
2. the comments offered by those who take a diametrically opposed view and suggest that if the manufacturer built it.... it must be OK  >:-o...and an obscure Bar [pressure/volume] rating rule may apply  <*< so why worry?

In reality, there is only one accepted stance & that is if an owner of such a device wishes to use the steam assembly in a public environment then the local ruling conditions will apply

I do remember some 50 years ago..... %) ...the father of a current member building some "a sort of open tray with a perforated screen over the top, fill with meths, chuck a match on and hope you hadn't spilled any"

The only thing was .....  {:-{ ..... that I was not allowed to strike the match.......thanks Dad  :-))

Derek

 

Derek,
You seam to have missed the point on my comments to Cal on firing his boiler, he was not firing it up in a public place but in his own premises and only to prove
that the safety valve was working properly.
I had missed his post that he had already fired his boiler so it now appears that it is safe enough.

I am not familiar with code of practice in U.S.A but as he is very much on his own there is no reason for him not to experiment on his own premises to become proficient in operating his steam plant.

There is nobody as safety conscious on testing steam plants as I am, as the members of my club can testify when presenting a boiler for testing so don't come up with this diametrically opposed to safety statement that you have quoted

You seam to have double standards in boiler operations as in your post  (Quote. 2. the comments offered by those who take a diametrically opposed view and suggest that if the manufacturer built it.... it must be OK  >:-o...and an obscure Bar [pressure/volume] rating rule may apply  <*< so why worry? )

When you bought your boiler from Alex on the other side of the world, complete with Test Cert, did you after taking it out of the wrapping have it hydraulic tested before firing it up.
Of course you didn't, as you accepted by trust that the manufacturer had said it was tested and it was O.K. so you had no worries, it's the same with Maccsteam
so what's the difference with say Wilesco, or Mamod ?

It has to be presumed that people using steam plants in model boats should treat them with respect and responsibility and that they are not 3-4year old children operating models in there front parlor without supervision of parents and causing ALLEGED fires that can severely burn the operators, my heart goes out to those that have been burned, burns are very painful, as well I have experienced.

Now as I presume that you will post to my comments please do not use these childish funny faces that you are prone to use as I will not reply to your post if you do.
George.

Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: john s 2 on July 29, 2012, 08:40:57 pm
Derek. The obscure three bar rule exists so low pressure steam model makers can produce models that do not come under testing rules that apply to bigger and higher pressure boilers. Should you wish to read these rules you can purchase a copy from the society of Model Engineers. You are correct in saying that rules can vary.In practise in my opinion its what the insurence company will allow is what matters. John.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: derekwarner on July 30, 2012, 12:46:22 am
Cal/john s 2

I fully understand the existence of Bar [pressure/volume] "Rules" for low pressure/volume model boiler applications both in the UK and Australia, however they themselves cease to be "Rules" by the obscurity bestowed upon them by the insurance industry

I have re-read the entire thread and cannot find reference to any indication that you wanted to use the components solely for test purposes in a private environment, however I did view your video & comment constructively

Conversely I have not read where you indicated a desire to use the same in a public environment

You have commented that the seller indicated a 45 PSI boiler test, however did not provide any documentary evidence to this point [buyer beware]

ooyah/2

George.....I am not sure who Alex is...as I purchased my Scottish boiler from Sandy Campbell of ACS Engineering

You are correct, I did not request or subject it to a second hydraulic test or an Australian pressure test as ACS Engineering were in a recognised listing of British model boiler manufacturers

Derek
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: ooyah/2 on July 30, 2012, 11:40:24 am
Personal Message (Online)
   
   
Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
« Reply #85 on: Today at 12:46:22 AM »

ooyah/2

George.....I am not sure who Alex is...as I purchased my Scottish boiler from Sandy Campbell of ACS Engineering

You are correct, I did not request or subject it to a second hydraulic test or an Australian pressure test as ACS Engineering were in a recognised listing of British model boiler manufacturers

Derek

ALEX is an ex engine and boiler maker who lives up the road from me, but alas no longer is in business

In Scotland the name ALEXANDER  can be abbreviated to ALEX or SANDY , I will leave it up to you to figure out what ASC  means.

Hiding behind Australian testing rules doesn't excuse inflammatory accusations  in  your No 2 quote regarding diametrically opposed views, you yourself has accepted that ASC's boilers are safe , why not other well known manufacturers, or do they have to be on the Australian list as well ?

George.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: derekwarner on July 30, 2012, 12:41:29 pm
George....sincerely, I did not understand your reference to Alex as .....Alexander/Sandy by name sake within the Scottish vocabulary......clearly as you state I now understand that it is the same person...

I have the greatest respect for the person who electronically signed his Drawings and written communications as A.F Campbell.......as an individual/component manufacturer and as a communicator and as a man with a great sense of humour as displayed in his hundreds of postings in PD's

Sandy Campbell provided lesson after lesson to Paddleduck members interested in steam...they are all in the PD downloads section

With respect to the previous issue of the need ..or no need for a pressure gauge and test certificate for the particular low pressure application....etc... could I ask that we just leave it rest as a difference of opinion

Derek



 


Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: ooyah/2 on July 30, 2012, 02:36:57 pm
George....sincerely, I did not understand your reference to Alex as .....Alexander/Sandy by name sake within the Scottish vocabulary......clearly as you state I now understand that it is the same person...

I have the greatest respect for the person who electronically signed his Drawings and written communications as A.F Campbell.......as an individual/component manufacturer and as a communicator and as a man with a great sense of humour as displayed in his hundreds of postings in PD's

Sandy Campbell provided lesson after lesson to Paddleduck members interested in steam...they are all in the PD downloads section

With respect to the previous issue of the need ..or no need for a pressure gauge and test certificate for the particular low pressure application....etc... could I ask that we just leave it rest as a difference of opinion

Derek  


No Derek I won't let it rest.
I feel strongly slighted that you should include me in one of those who are diametrically opposed to your opinion.

I have always tried to give constructive advice on this forum of my experiences over the years in building and running steam plants and refraining from making caustic remarks on members postings and advice given as you have done..
I also stand by my remarks on no need for a pressure gauge on a Wilesco boiler as there isn't a bush to connect it to so the member has wasted money on buying one and it would spoil the integrity of the boiler by adding a bush to a brass boiler.

John started this by his remark on lighting the blue touch paper , but you sure fanned the flames.

I have had my say and have nothing further to add.

George.


Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 30, 2012, 11:26:24 pm
Out of curiosity and since I cannot find anything of any value on google, except for boilers for park rides and other large scale or full size hobby and collectible trains and tractors. I have posted on a US site in an attempt to find what the regs are here in the states.  I'm sure it will vary from state to state.  I do expect some municipalities that have public lakes will have some regulation and I"m sure most, if not all, clubs will as well.  I'll post what I find out here.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: pettyofficernick on July 30, 2012, 11:31:03 pm
Hi Cal, any luck with the reverse problem yet? I know the guy from PMR just uses an airline and a bath of water for his boiler testing, he told me that US regs are not as stringent as in the UK and some other countries. Perhaps you could phone/email him for advice....
Regards,
Nick :-)) :-)) :-))
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 31, 2012, 09:27:07 am
Nick, haven't had a chance to proceed with the reverse problem, blasted job keeps getting in the way! >>:-(  If I were just independently wealthy that wouldn't be a problem {-).  I did however get one response on my post on the US forum and this individual tells me there are no government regulations pertaining to boilers the size we use.  He doesn't mention a maximum size though.  Just thought I'd pass that along.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: pettyofficernick on July 31, 2012, 09:31:35 am
Nick, haven't had a chance to proceed with the reverse problem, blasted job keeps getting in the way! >>:-(  If I were just independently wealthy that wouldn't be a problem {-).  I did however get one response on my post on the US forum and this individual tells me there are no government regulations pertaining to boilers the size we use.  He doesn't mention a maximum size though.  Just thought I'd pass that along.

Pretty much the same here, Mamod, Wilesco and Jensen type boilers are classed as 'toy' steam and are not subject to the same reg's as their larger cousins.... :-)) :-)) :-))
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: derekwarner on July 31, 2012, 10:36:02 am
Cal......maintain with resolving & confirming your local responsibilities & requirements  O0 ...[which I suggested some 6 days ago] ....really nothing more nor nothing less

Then use your equipment according to your laws/statutes....very simple........

Disappointingly, some of the comments offered in this thread clearly display a lack of understanding in the consequences of Law ..........Derek  :-))

PS..... the Type 504 posting ERROR message was within Mayhem.........I will try again


504's All cleared away OK
ken

Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: Circlip on July 31, 2012, 11:34:59 am
And before you ask, the same answer applies re boiler "Testing" on this forum and not the numpty way of sticking an airline to it.

  Regards  Ian.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: pettyofficernick on July 31, 2012, 03:18:07 pm
I quite agree Ian, I was quite taken aback when told about the airline method, I tried to find the relevant message, but Ebay delete messages after 6 months. I was only using it as an example of the lack of regs in the US. Hydraulic testing is the only real safe way to establish the integrity of a boiler. I get all my boilers from Maccsteam, and all come with a proper test certificate.
Regards,
Nick
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 31, 2012, 03:52:08 pm
I don't want anyone to think I will be utilizing my boilers in a fashion that would endanger anyone but myself.  And I don't plan to do that!  In the future I will fire my boilers for the first time in my back yard.  I have a location were I can be 80m from my house and 120m from my only neighbor.   If I cannot find a source for hydraulic testing, what alternative is suggested?


Nick,  I think I have found where the engine is binding.  In the pic below, in the red circle you can see the pin (end of the crank) protrudes from the counterbalance.  It appears this is rubbing on the back of the lower portion of the connecting rod.  The engine binds when these two meet and it is free when they aren't.  Apparently the lower portion of the connecting rod has been slightly bent inwards.  I will straighten it and see how it goes.  Thanks for sticking with me.



(http://s10.postimage.org/abqyptkbp/Crank_pin.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/abqyptkbp/)
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: john s 2 on July 31, 2012, 04:12:04 pm
To test my boilers i use a Rothenburger pump used by plumbers to pressure test central heating systems.An adapter has to be made. Here in Britain most tool hire shops hire them. John.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on July 31, 2012, 04:40:48 pm
Thanks John, pardon my ignorance but does that use water to test or air?  What pressure do you suggest my Krick (Wilesco) boiler be tested to?
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: pettyofficernick on July 31, 2012, 05:04:30 pm
Hi Cal, that could be whats causing the problem, if it still binds after straightening, dress the protruding end of the shaft up with a sharp file, a few strokes at a time until it eases off. The Rothenburger pump uses water.you could also make a rudimentary  version using a hand boiler feed pump and a pressure gauge, as shown in the attached photo. Personally, I wouldn't take it much over 40 psi for a working pressure of 20 psi.
Regards,
Nick. :-)) :-)) :-))

(http://s13.postimage.org/jo8wjgqqb/Boiler_test_rig.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/jo8wjgqqb/)
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: john s 2 on July 31, 2012, 05:09:45 pm
Thanks for your question. Nick has kindly answered it.John.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on August 01, 2012, 12:03:16 am
Success! I straightened the connecting rod and moved a washer to the other side of the con rod to give it a little more clearance and viola!. Now it starts in both directions with no nudges! Will slow down to a crawl too!  Thanks for all the advice.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: pettyofficernick on August 01, 2012, 12:12:41 am
Well done! :-)) :-)) :-))
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: ooyah/2 on August 01, 2012, 09:13:01 am
I don't want anyone to think I will be utilizing my boilers in a fashion that would endanger anyone but myself.  And I don't plan to do that!  In the future I will fire my boilers for the first time in my back yard.  I have a location were I can be 80m from my house and 120m from my only neighbor.   If I cannot find a source for hydraulic testing, what alternative is suggested?


Nick,  I think I have found where the engine is binding.  In the pic below, in the red circle you can see the pin (end of the crank) protrudes from the counterbalance.  It appears this is rubbing on the back of the lower portion of the connecting rod.  The engine binds when these two meet and it is free when they aren't.  Apparently the lower portion of the connecting rod has been slightly bent inwards.  I will straighten it and see how it goes.  Thanks for sticking with me.






Cal,
Nothing causes more controversy around the Global forums than boiler test certification and the fact that you have been willing to ask questions tells that you are a responsible person and wish to be safe in what you do.

There are only 2- bodies that will require you to produce a certificate and that is a club that you are a member of in order to have public liability insurance cover in the event of any accidents.
The other is the insurance company who will take on the risk and insist that boilers are certified by 2- competent testers.

There is no inputs from Government, Local authorities or any other authorities.
You will however get all sorts of advice from those who have never built a boiler nor been involved in testing of the same and knowledge has been gleaned from books.

You have asked the question on other methods of  testing and have been given an excellent method by using the Rothenburger test gear if not a bit expensive.
This would not however qualify for a test certificate but very good or proving the integrity of the boiler before presenting it to the testers.

As you are fairly isolated with no other steam enthusiasts in your area I can suggest 2- methods only to test the boiler that isn't a commercially recognized one.

Your Maccsteam one will be O.K. and as you have already discovered from well known steam enthusiasts in the U.S.A. that your brass boilers don't need testing but the unknown copper one is advised to be tested.

Have a look around the circumference of the boiler shell and at ether end there may be some markings that will determine the working pressure of the boiler.
If there are no markings I would guess on a figure of testing to 60 P.s.i. which will give you a boiler of 30 p.s.i. working pressure.

Strip the boiler of all cladding and fittings., Plug all holes bar one which will probably be the safety valve bush, get a 2" dia pressure gauge ( you will get one at a reasonable cost from Engineering supply company )  make a fitting that has a male female thread , one to suit the gauge and one to suit the boiler bush.

Completely fill the boiler with water leaving no air space, screw the pressure gauge into the boiler and set it up on two bricks, gently play a plumbers blow lamp on the copper side of the boiler until the gauge moves, this next bit takes a bit of care, keep playing the burner on and off as the pressure rises until it's up to about 40 p.s.i. then continue to gently touch the boiler until you reach 60 p.s.i..
Shut down your burner and the pressure will very quickly drop.
This hydraulic test isn't sufficient as a certificated test, as on a hydraulic test the boiler must hold it's pressure for 15 mins but it will show up any water leaks in the boiler, which if it leaks all that you will get is a spray of hot water, not boiling water !!!

I have on occasions tested a boiler for leaks by plugging all holes and making an adapter to take a cycle tyre connection and with a cycle hand pump screwed on to the connector put the boiler into a deep bucket of water and then give it no more than 4 -strokes of the pump which will produce air bubbles if there are any leaks.

Here is a pic of a 2" dia gauge fitted to a Yarrow boiler and a pic of a boiler stripped ready to fit the gauge on, mounted on "V" blocks ready to heat for a quick hydraulic test,which incidentally was pressurised initially by the heating method to 175 p.s.i

The best method of course if there is nobody to hydraulic test your boiler is to make a test rig or by/rent the Rothengerger gear.
My suggestions are purely for those isolated with no external help from other steam enthusiast, in all of my years involved in steam models, Locos and Marine I have never seen a boiler burst nor have I ever heard of one doing so.
 

George.



(http://s10.postimage.org/h8c9vwjyt/Yarrow_Boiler_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/h8c9vwjyt/)


(http://s8.postimage.org/yay55fdf5/Yarrow_boiler_7.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/yay55fdf5/)

Scotch Marine boiler ready for test.


(http://s15.postimage.org/wyh1r77uv/Marine_Boiler_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/wyh1r77uv/)
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on August 01, 2012, 09:35:09 am
Thanks George, that is all very useful. 

Below is a pick of my "unknown" boiler.  It is quite heavy so I believe it to be copper. I says "stuart" on the gauge.  Any idea of the manufacturer? A Stuart perhaps?


(http://s13.postimage.org/8wu4jp49f/SAM_2889.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/8wu4jp49f/)

Thanks again to all for the assistance.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: pettyofficernick on August 01, 2012, 09:49:15 am
That looks like a Stuart boiler, one of their earlier ones, how is it fired?
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: ooyah/2 on August 01, 2012, 10:03:12 am
That looks like a Stuart boiler, one of their earlier ones, how is it fired?

Nick,
I have to disagree with you on this one, it's not well enough made for a Stuart or any other maker, just look at the hammer marks on the lid and the fittings a very amateurishs, very much a home built job and not soo well at that.
George.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: pettyofficernick on August 01, 2012, 10:07:22 am
Nick,
I have to disagree with you on this one, it's not well enough made for a Stuart or any other maker, just look at the hammer marks on the lid and the fittings a very amateurishs, very much a home built job and not soo well at that.
George.
Yes, on closer inspection you are right, I only looked at the small photo, but it looks very similar to a vertical Stuart I had about 15 years ago. I stand corrected :embarrassed: :embarrassed: :embarrassed:
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: ooyah/2 on August 01, 2012, 10:40:15 am
Yes, on closer inspection you are right, I only looked at the small photo, but it looks very similar to a vertical Stuart I had about 15 years ago. I stand corrected :embarrassed: :embarrassed: :embarrassed:

Nick @ Cal.
Although it looks like a home made job doesn't mean it's no use.
Due to the appearance of age  I would definitely do some tests on  it  i.e do a complete strip down checking for calcification internal boiler fittings and  make sure that you have a known safety valve set at a known pressure which I wouldn't go above 60p.s.i and would recommend a hydraulic test.
A good ceramic burner would fit below the boiler.
George.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: steamboatmodel on August 01, 2012, 05:59:01 pm
Cal,
I found the following;
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f42/us-state-boiler-code-8141/
Virgina
40.1-51.8. Exemptions
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+40.1-51.8
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+reg+16VAC25-50-10
When I tested my Wilesco Boiler after making repairs I made a fitting that went in the safety valve bushing with a 2" Dia 120psi gauge on it. I then gently heated the boiler ( it being filled completely with water) until the gauge read 60psi, I then backed the flame away until the pressure stayed at 60psi. I then had a cup of coffee while watching the pressure and moving the flame back and forth. When I finished the boiler had maintained a pressure of about 60psi for a good half hour, I then let the boiler cool down (It was around 300 *F at 60 psig ) and inspected it for distortion non found. I then figured in my own mind that the boiler was safe to run again.
Regards,
Gerald.
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on August 01, 2012, 09:36:11 pm
Cal,
I found the following;
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f42/us-state-boiler-code-8141/
Virgina
40.1-51.8. Exemptions
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+40.1-51.8
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+reg+16VAC25-50-10
When I tested my Wilesco Boiler after making repairs I made a fitting that went in the safety valve bushing with a 2" Dia 120psi gauge on it. I then gently heated the boiler ( it being filled completely with water) until the gauge read 60psi, I then backed the flame away until the pressure stayed at 60psi. I then had a cup of coffee while watching the pressure and moving the flame back and forth. When I finished the boiler had maintained a pressure of about 60psi for a good half hour, I then let the boiler cool down (It was around 300 *F at 60 psig ) and inspected it for distortion non found. I then figured in my own mind that the boiler was safe to run again.
Regards,
Gerald.


Regards,
Gerald.

Wow Gerald, that's some good research.  From what I read my "hobby boiler" is exempt in both states in which I might run it, VA and NY.  That doesn't mean I won't employ safe operating practices though. I would really like to find a club and have someone "look over my shoulder" as I proceed.
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: muleears on August 01, 2012, 10:03:36 pm
Here are some more pics of my "unknown" boiler.  Maybe they will help with identification, or confirm it's home made origins.  The copper top and stack don't appear to be original (I think).


(http://s7.postimage.org/ijpsi15dj/SAM_2890.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ijpsi15dj/)

(http://s7.postimage.org/8axbc7hbr/SAM_2891.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/8axbc7hbr/)

(http://s7.postimage.org/hjzhmbq7r/SAM_2892.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/hjzhmbq7r/)

(http://s7.postimage.org/ausy6b4vr/SAM_2893.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ausy6b4vr/)

(http://s7.postimage.org/6a6rrdl6f/SAM_2894.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/6a6rrdl6f/)
Title: Re: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions
Post by: ooyah/2 on August 02, 2012, 02:54:52 pm
Here are some more pics of my "unknown" boiler.  Maybe they will help with identification, or confirm it's home made origins.  The copper top and stack don't appear to be original (I think).


(http://s7.postimage.org/ijpsi15dj/SAM_2890.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ijpsi15dj/)

(http://s7.postimage.org/8axbc7hbr/SAM_2891.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/8axbc7hbr/)

(http://s7.postimage.org/hjzhmbq7r/SAM_2892.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/hjzhmbq7r/)

(http://s7.postimage.org/ausy6b4vr/SAM_2893.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/ausy6b4vr/)



(http://s7.postimage.org/6a6rrdl6f/SAM_2894.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/6a6rrdl6f/)


Cal,
I would say that your boiler is home made, the quality isn't there to have been made by Stuart or any other maker.
The design is very nearly for a coal burner with the bottom section having the ring soldered in to take the heating surface right down to the bottom and the black soot would suggest this, however there isn't a firing hole to get the coal in so it's been fired by another method, you could fire it with a round ceramic burner.

The 2- safety valves in pic No 2 look decidedly dodgy and I would strip them out , clean then and install new balls in them, maybe even fit new ones of proven pressure setting..
The clack  valve ( boiler feed water  connection ) looks the same and would need to be cleaned out.

When you have the top of have a look inside and see if there are any markings on the top flange with all the tubes coming thro", which if there are will be the makers test marks and the working pressure should be there.however I suspect that you will find nothing.

It looks like a good strong boiler but I would advise you to test it before using due to its apparent age.

It's very similar to one that I made but mine doesn't have the extra jacket going down the the bottom.

George.


(http://s7.postimage.org/58jtwpp0n/Vertical_boiler_2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/58jtwpp0n/)

(http://s8.postimage.org/d3h4j4d7l/Vertical_boiler_6.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/d3h4j4d7l/)