Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Yachts and Sail => Topic started by: MCR on May 08, 2006, 10:11:43 pm
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Just to get the ball rolling.The Thames barge association could be one of the most supportive groups for those who wish to go scale sail.
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what do you think of the half size kitty kit i never seemed to be able to ask some 1 but now i can thanks to this brill forum heres the web site http://www.scalemodelboatyard.co.uk/
thanks jamie
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Its a simple rule but a simple one, the bigger the model the better it sails. You can not scale down the wind you see. While I am sure that the little model would be great fun in ideal circumstances how often do they occur? The HFM kit would be a better option if you did not wish to go for the 1/24th scale .
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how long do you think is a desient size for scale sail because iv been bitten by the bug and its got to be farly cheap also do you no of any surrpliers i could get a boaat from thanks jamie
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I would also like to build a Thames sailing barge..........one day!. I have built quite a few static sail models in years past always going for electric powered working models of classic boats/ships if i wanted something to sail ( I have never belonged to a club, I prefer to make my mistakes in private) .......but I have found this forum and the once all conquering model boats forum an absolute mine of information for the sole model boater.
Before I build a sailing barge I've always had it in my mind to try a pilot cutter or some thing like a cornish crabber ( if you ever go to the maritime museum at Falmouth, they have a stick your money in the slot..........have a go at sailing a model boat pond indoors with fans providing the wind) no I don't live there, I reside in the frozen north (so it's not an advert, it was just good fun)
These little models sail really well ( if anyone knows if they are produced as a kit, I'd really like to know) What I liked was the simplified sail arrangement, lack of deck clutter which I believe prevents real sailing boats from performing as well as they could ( lower the deck line better they go......but hey what do I know) but the thing that really puts me off is the mechanics, I've recently returned to the fold after a break of roughly 25 years, while the boat building isn't all that different apart from the use of plastic (haven't got used to that yet but I'm trying SWMBO say's I am anyway) it's the radio control and gadgets that have moved on a pace ( most boats went round in circles when i modelled before and I'm not that old.....no pension in sight yet, and once I realised through these forums that my old radio control which I'd lovingly looked after all these years was defunct, I still got suckered into buying a 27 meg replacement) so thats the bit that puts me off, I've built 80% of my models from scratch i.e from a plan or out of my head from whatever bits and pieces come to hand (not in the strict sense of making every part) so the practical advise is invaluable to me.
I'd really like to see more on the mechanics of sail craft & how to work out what components you need without being a mathematician or a scientist(I work with statistics but find some posts puzzling) surely it wasn't rocket science in the old days when people had to do this for real..come on guys give us a break keep it simple, more please.
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Although not a pilot cutter the rig is very similar this is my second sail model you can see some shots under the yachts section.
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wow nice boat good for your second attempt
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Not my second boat but my second scale sail still a very steep learning curve.
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id like a pilot cutter or falmouth working boat
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Hi Boatmanic942,
Have you tried Mike Mayhew at Waverley Models, he does a good range of pilot cutters.
Daryl
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Is the HFM barge a good kit to start in the world of barges?. I have heard a lot of conflicting views.
Thanks
Richard
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I got my 1/24th hull from a chap in AMBO( Association of Model Barge Owners), no plans but what a great hull, very cheep to. Ambo are the people to ask about model barges they are very helpful.
Daryl
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Where is mmgemini when you need him, for you chaps who haven't meet the man, friendly doesn't come anywhere near it. He has started to build a barge from cornflake boxes. Rope making and barges, ask the question to him and he will more then answer the question.
I have tried to email him but...........
Hopefully he will be joining us soon
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:'(My Dad scratch built a Thames sailing barge back in the early 70's, over about 3 years. It was a beautiful model, as I remember it. What happened to it? He put it out for the bin-men when we moved as we didn't have room to take it with us! :'(
Mike
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Although not a pilot cutter the rig is very similar this is my second sail model you can see some shots under the yachts section.
She looks beautiful...
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Thanks for the compliment I hope to get some video shots of the boat in action but would need advice regarding posting these on the forum.
Mark
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Mark
The photo question has been addressed several times on the forum, you can use the search facility to find the topics.
Essentially, you attach them to your post as in an email. The facility is under additional options bottom left of the post window.
HTH
Doug
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Not photo video is it the same process?
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MCR
As I understnd it - its should be. The problem with video is the host PC, ie the one looking at the attachment needs teh correct application to view it. Why not try and see.
Cheers
Doug
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MCR the second photo you posted on this page is a very nice looking model, Would it be possible to purchase a copy of the plan as I cannot find anything like over here, and I would love to build a model which looks as good as yours..
Roy
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I have seen some of the AMSB club models, although they have been interesting to look at. I do wonder if in fact they have scale sail plan size to their models. As most 80/100 ton lifting barges were 82 /85 feet in length with a beam of 21/22ft and a moulded depth of 5/5.5feet. The racing rule forbid a mainmast longer than 34ft I believe and the average working bowsprit was 22/25 feet total length. Infact most barges working between Thames Medway area did not carry a bowsprit as they got in the way when turning in congested waters and any barge that set a bowsprit above Gravesend was in violation of PLA bye laws and the master would be fined. The very late Racing Champion Bowsprit class of the late 1950's on were 45% increase in sail area restricted to 4 barges only, these sail plans seem more of the size I have seen on the model barges and would explain some of their stability problems. Also the real barge when empty still had a draft roughly equal to Half their loaded draft. They were after all a plank with a sharpish end forward going through the water. The pivoting point when turning was different to normal yachts as they seem to dig the leeward side into the water and would lift their weather chine out of the water just. I expect some one will say I am wrong, my wife usually says I am wrong. But Iam only commenting on my youth actively rigging and sailing these planks and a whole life interest in them. The vessels were only as successful as they were because of the superlative skill of the men who worked them.
Dave.
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Hi
I was thinking of building something like a thames barge so i went onto the thames barge site and asked if anyone had any ideas where i could get a plan from ,i never got a single reply ,so i gave them up ,wont bother with them again,anyone here got any ideas ?
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hi Hobbyman
if you go to the AMBO (Association of model barge owners) website www.modelbarge.info you'll find a lot of the information you want about plan and grp hull suppliers. My next project is going to be a barge. iIhave a Lady Daphne hull from datelinemarine www.datelinemarine.com/ladydaphne.html and a set of plans and photo's from the same source. All I've got to do now is find time to start the build. The chaps in AMBO and particularly Richard Chesney, are very helpful. Richard has compiled a booklet giving a lot of useful info on builds both plank-on-frame and on grp hulls. I'm sure you could get a copy from him by becoming a member of AMBO! It's well worth the membership fee for the access to inf alone, even if you don't want to race your barge.
WRT a previous post - by rmasmaster - I suspect that you're bang on and what you saw were racing model barges which will tend (as in full-size) to carry a larger suite of sails than if in working trim. The class rule is fairly loose and some of the skippers will keep rigging to the minimum needed to sail and may also compromise on scale deck features that impede remote control sail movement.
Sadly I believe that one of the most prolific suppliers of grp hulls, Tony Williams, is no longer well enough to carry on.
I hope the above is useful and that you'll go ahead with the barge.
Cheers
Guy
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Hi
I was thinking of building something like a thames barge so i went onto the thames barge site and asked if anyone had any ideas where i could get a plan from ,i never got a single reply ,so i gave them up ,wont bother with them again,anyone here got any ideas ?
Try hear
https://sslrelay.com/s84068217.oneandoneshop.co.uk/sess/utn;jsessionid=15473e433b925eb/shopdata/index.shopscript
Valerie Anne
Two sheet plans for timber hull spritsail barge to standard model 1:24th scale. Model is 1120mm length and 275mm beam. Carefully researched deck and rig detail shown on plan, but no model construction. Designed by Mike Mayhew.
Picture lifted from Traplet Publications Website, but they should not mind.
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If you're interested in SB Valerie Ann then Mike Mayhew trades as Waverley Models http://freespace.virgin.net/waverley.models/header.htm
and has a GRP hull for this one on offer as well as several other sailing model hulls.
Cheers
Guy
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I am a Thames Barge enthusiast, full size and model
Kitty (free plan in MB) was my first boat ever - only 6 sails to control - she sails perfectly and is beautifully balanced
So 1/24th is what to aim for, 30 inch is a good size barge and will sail well. Kitty at 24"(hull) is a lot of fun and goes in my Yaris rigged and 12 inch barges are probably lots of fun, but almost certainly quite sensitive to trim
I am contemplating a 1/10th version - control by small human with radio if necessary
andrew
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Hi all
WRT Tony Williams - those not in AMBO may not know that Tony has sadly now died. There's an obit in the latest edition of Bitts ands Bobs, the AMBO magazine.
Very sad news. Hopefully someone else will be able to take on the range of barge hull mouldings that Tony made .
Tony Williams RIP
Guy
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Why not get some good photos and build from there, the vast majority of barges where never built from plans but a generic model which the builder used with variations to suit different trades. The average barge was about 82 feet by 21/2 feet beam and a moulded depth of 5ft 2inch's amidships (that was the figure for the Mirosia of Maldon. Rochester museum have two beautiful builders models and Edgar J March book on Spritsail Barges of the Thames and Medway has two plans in that, F.S Coopers book on "A Handbook of Sailing Barges" is brilliant on rigging and deck detail variations, you can rig out a full size barge with this book and he was one of the last Sailorman underway in trade. As for champion sailing barg's there was ever only 4 in this class in the late 1950's to the finish in 1962. There was a regulation for sailing barge matches in the Thames on size of spars, I believe the mainmast was about 34feet in length. But each builder had his own idea on how barge should be shaped and some had very fine lines with no transom in the water when deep loaded.
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Edgar J March wrote a book in the 1940's entitled 'Spritsail Barges of Thames and Medway' (isbn 0877420068) and reprinted in 1970 ( isbn 0715346814)
The book covers the history of these sailing ships in detail including detailed plans and sketches ideal for ship models of this type covering construction, rigging and sail plans.
I can be still found but as it is a rare collectable book it is a bit pricey, though here in the UK it can be found in the public libraries.
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I see that this topic has re-emerged.
There has been some criticism of the use of smaller models of barges. I am a member of AMBO and I regularly act as OOD for their sailing barge racing. I have seen the 30" class of barge evolve to become very competitive and, in my view, a very practical class. These boats will sail in quite heavy conditions and sail very commendably in the swirling winds that occur in the many model boating lakes that are surrounded by trees.
I have built two model barges, one a boom sail barge Pearl scaled up from Carr and the other a bowsprit barge to 1.24 scale. I have a web site that contains comprehensive section on the Thames sailing barge including an account of building bowsprit barge James Piper to 1/24 scale. It is at www.ivorbittle.co.uk
Ivor bittle
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Ivor, I've really enjoyed your website in the past, but it's invisible to users of the Firefox browser, probably due to the spaces used in the page urls. Any chance of this excellent resource being fixed for FF users?
Regards,
Andy
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I also have a problem.
I am on IE8 (same issue on IE7)
I cannot see pics.
I am in China
I don't know if images are hosted on another site like Imageshack, which is blocked in China.
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Works fine on Safari. No issues here! :-))
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Firefox.
I found out about this problem with Firefox only a few days ago. I sought help but we could not fix it.
I always use Google and so did not run into trouble.
I cannot help sadly.
Ivor Bittle
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Gents, if its ok with Mr. Bittle, I'd be more than happy to forward PDF copies of his website to anyone here who cannot access his site or view the images. Not to belabor the joys of Mac ownership but it sure is nice to be able to print & save PDF copies of websites on the fly like this! ok2
I have saved all chapters related to modeling the Thames barge which I've been using for reference towards my existing junk build & have printed the most relevant sections for shop use.
Once again, I have to say thanks again to the author for such an informative website! :-))
Chuck
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Hi all
WRT Tony Williams - those not in AMBO may not know that Tony has sadly now died. There's an obit in the latest edition of Bitts ands Bobs, the AMBO magazine.
Very sad news. Hopefully someone else will be able to take on the range of barge hull mouldings that Tony made .
Tony Williams RIP
Guy
Hiya,
I was looking up on Pilot Cutters the other day and came across this site
www.tonyscottageboatyard.co.uk/index.htm
Keith.
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My website,
I wrote it to help others to enjoy their modelling. Anything, short of making money from it, is fine by me.
Ivor Bittle
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I am getting seriously into Thames barges.
It all started when Speedline Models acquired the HFM kits of old and now I'm busy revamping them right now, starting with the Thames Barge.
(The kit is staying much as it was except that now it has laser cut Perspex components instead of a printed bit of plasticard. A new rudder (and extension for sailing) has been produced in laser-cut Perspex as have the new lee boards. Two little laser-cut lee-board winches with working gear sets and ruffle and a brailing winch with brakes and ruffle and an anchor winch made in the same way makes up the all the winches. It's coming on well so won't be too long.
Anyway, apart from that, I am getting really into the idea of doing a kit for the James Piper. It looks nice and shopuld be fast???. Plank on frame, all laser cut wood with etched brass components, brass blocks and stays sets and as much detail as possible. I think I will do it in two scales, 1/24th of course and a 30" waterline version. What do you think? I would love to know.
Many, many thanks to Ivor Bittle and to Richard Chesney for the inspiration! A brilliant site from Ivor and a brilliant data pack from Richard (AMBO).
The Thames barge is a big change from lifeboats and as yet, I know far too little about the subject but it will happen. I will be going to see some barges for real of course with my Brownie and will also be going to see some model barge racing, (yes, I am begging for an invite Jim).
AdrianG
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For flundle.
Consider joining the Thames Barge Trust - Google 'em - , and you'll be able to learn lots about these beautiful craft in addition to contributing to their preservation.
The Trust owns and operates two barges - 'Centaur' based at Paul's Wharf, Ipswich and 'Pudge' at Maldon, Essex,
Members benefit from very cheap weekend cruises from late Spring thru early Autumn. including participation in all East Coast barge races, and can either chill out and enjoy the ride, or preferably , help sail the craft under the supervision of a resident qualified Master and Mate - much more enjoyable!
I hope the above info may be of use to you.
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Many thanks for the advice. I have looked at their site and I will be joining.
A trip to see them should answer all my questions regarding the full size vessels.
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Many thanks for the advice. I have looked at their site and I will be joining.
A trip to see them should answer all my questions regarding the full size vessels.
Should you not be familiar with Maldon ,it is famed for its numerous barges which can be seen in all their glory throughout the year so don't forget to take your camera whatever time of year you visit
PS The AMBO fraternity sail on the small riverside lake downstream of the barge berths.
PPS Both the 'Jolly Sailor' and the ' Queens Head' are adjacent to the barge berths and are essential watering holes. :-))