Model Boat Mayhem
Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => 3D CAD Design & Printing => Topic started by: canalpilot on October 23, 2014, 10:12:48 pm
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Does anyone know of somewhere were I can do a course on learning how to do CAD.
Or alternatively where can I get someone to transfer a plan onto a CAD programme which I can then have cut on a laser cutter.
I have the plans of a 110 foot USCG Island class cutter which I would like to build. The original hull was designed by Vosper Thornicroft and tweeked by the Americans. They built about 90 of these vessels, I believe, during the 80's and 90's, some of which are still in service.
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Whereabouts on the planet are you canalpilot? :-)
if anywhere near Blackpool, then the Blackpool and Fylde college at Bispham runs one........it comes as part of a course on mechanical engineering, and my daughter is doing it at the mo.
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And for someone to transfer your paper drawings onto CAD sufficient for laser cutting would cost you a small mortgage!!!
Trust me - I know!!!! I use CAD in my day job, and for the design of the ferry kits, and it is an extremely time consuming process to change a paper drawing into an electronic one.........
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Well worth finding out which CAD software your laser cutter prefers, I get files sent to me all the time that are drawn in all kinds of formats when my machine really prefers Corel, even converting from a common DWG file to Corel leaves some weird bits that need to be rectified.
Phill
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Does anyone know of somewhere were I can do a course on learning how to do CAD.
Or alternatively where can I get someone to transfer a plan onto a CAD programme which I can then have cut on a laser cutter.
I have the plans of a 110 foot USCG Island class cutter which I would like to build. The original hull was designed by Vosper Thornicroft and tweeked by the Americans. They built about 90 of these vessels, I believe, during the 80's and 90's, some of which are still in service.
Your local FE college may run evening classes on CAD software, it's worth looking into.
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Hi
Try and get your plans scanned at your local graphics company
They usually charge around £8.50 per A0 sheet and out put as a pdf file without any extra work
They may be able to output them as a dxf file,this will cost Mega bucks
Once you have your pdf files send them to somebody like me who can convert them to dxf format within a piece of software in minutes
Your main problem is checking the pdf files for errors such as
a/ scale
b/ double lines
etc
I know this because I do it on a frequent basis for my own projects and know how time consuming it can be.
If you want to go down this route let me know and I will help all I can
Alistair
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Thanks Neil,
The part of the planet I am on is North Wales, about 70 miles from Fleetwood.
Also thanks to everyone else who has replied, it appears that if I cannot do it myself it can be a very costly business. It seemed quite simple when I read the articles in the July/August 2014 and Sept/Oct 2014 editions of "Ships in Scale" and the July 2013 and May 2014 editions of Model Boats.
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canalpilot
Yes it is relatively simple if you know what you are doing
Alistair
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I would also advise checking the drawings carefully before committing to cutting, as I often find errors in plans especially if they are drawn in pre-CAD ages. Ship builders plans can sometimes be the worst as I have had a few from NMM that simply do not go together when I draw them up.
Mark
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in my experience as a CAD drawing office manager I will agree with the others here, the best way to scan plans in for converting is scanning to a monochrome .Tif format, then converting from that to CAD, though you can convert from pdf the quality depends upon the type of pdf file you start with (vector pdf is good, raster pdf not so good).
I have used several different software packages to achieve a CAD drawing, and without fail all of them needed a lot of hours spent cleaning up the CAD drawing afterwards (removing short segments of line and converting to polylines is just one of the tasks) any text almost always needs to be retyped.
It is almost quicker to insert the pdf image as a background and trace over the top, (still the work of days rather than hours- even for an experienced CAD jockey),
The mechanics of the conversion are simple, the drawing work is simple - its just not quick - as an example - the other day I did a favour for an old work colleague, he wanted a CAD background for a local playing field drawn up so they could get an architect (as another favour) to draw up some proposals for them (they are in the process of saving the fields from development by the local council), just the outline of the field, with surrounding houses rivers and roads, took the best part of 8 hours cleanup work after converting to dxf, for myself, a very quick CAD draughtsman, as I wasn't happy with a line made up of short segments (any more than a laser cutter would be), or right angle corners that weren't right angles.
Grendel
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I find by far the best way is to scan, clean up, scale and then trace over with fresh CAD.
I agree that when I tried automatic conversion it actually to longer to clean up the result than start from scratch.
Mark
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I think if canalpilot could let one of us with experience of this type of work
have a look at one of the drawings it may be able to offer constructive assistance for him
Surely the cost of postage is within a reasonable amount to obtain a professional opinion
There are on this forum quite a few experienced people with the necessary experience.
Grendel, Marmoi, and myself
I have 50 years experience of cad
and have in house all the software required
Unfortunately I do not have an A0 scanner
I agree with Marmoi it is often quicker to revert to redrawing over a scanned image
Alistair
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If an A0 scanner is needed.......I have access....
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It looks as if its up to canalpilot as to what he wants to do
Alistair
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I too have full cad software at home, but my scanning capability is now reduced to A3 whereas at my previous job I too had access to a full A0 scanner, I also have the conversion software at home.
Grendel
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I have 50 years experience of cad
I'me very surprised cad has been around for so long, I thought it was a relativley new technology.
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Some of the earlier CAD programs are just finishing refreshing the screen, that's how slow they were, lol. my first encounter was back in 1979 (though sadley not to use it - the draughy would go for a brew while it refreshed the screen - he drank a lot of tea in those days).
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I have been doing CAD for a few years (not quite 50) it wasnt that new when I started using it, but it was mid 1990's as the first pc version was on win 3.1, that was a few years in though as we ran it on unix workstations before pc's.
Actually looking up the version histories, it could have been as early as 1990 when I started CAD, which would make my experience 24 years
Grendel
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1984 was my introduction to CAD. MEDUSA running on Prime Minicomputers.
It was a 32bit system initially produced by Cambridge Interactive Systems.
Eventually - 1992 I think - I switched to AutoCAD rls12 with AEC and have been using it ever since.........
So, 30 years of CAD for me......
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My first CAD, back in 1984, was a program called "Pallette" was a true 2D draughting program written for "mini computers" (these things in a box about 450mm x450mm x600mm, and ran multiple workstations, with 15 layers and we used it for structural buildings, Architect had some layers, structural had another few, while services had a couple, etc.), and was developed by a couple of engineers in Queensland, Australia.
My first experiance of Autocad was version 2.8, back in 1985/1986, which after "Pallette" was crap, but cheap. Is still crap, but everyone got on the bandwagon early, and can't get off. Serious 3D CAD was run on big computers, (tall cabinets standing in their own airconditioned room, and used via multi screen workstations. When the ship builder I was doing contract work for in 1987, purchased the whole system to design and build some fast catamarans for hydrological surveys in Queensland, this was an American system, full 3D with full electronic output to CNC machines in the workshop, and was concidered an old system then. Came in two fully fitted out containers, one the computer room, the other the workstations.
CAD has been around a lot longer than the PC, and a lot longer than most people think.
Still use at work, mainly Autocad owned programs, Autocad 2015, Autocad 3D civil, Revit 2015, and the quickest way I've found is to import the scanned plan as a simple jpg, or some other picture format, and draw over the top. Scanning to raster/vector, is a waste of time, in my opinion, as then you spend hours and hours 'cleaning' it up, and redoing the text.
cheers
vnkiwi :-))
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Going back a long way I was a bit spoilt, running an CAD department with suites of Pro-Engineer on high spec UNIX platforms. It was a genuine solid modeller, not wire frame skinned, and could even do stress and thermal analasis. Just the biz for the MoD contracts we were doing. Spun complex assemblies in real time too.
Even then I never had much success in converting 2D drawings, unless for straight copying. It was usually much quicker and easier to remodel the part accurately and project 2D views from it. That way we could also utilise the part in our 3D assemblies.
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:(( Very many thanks for all your replies, you guys are really great, but CAD sure looks like a minefield, I may take up KNITTING. {-)
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Hi Canalpilot,
The CAD minefield can be as big or small as you want it.
speak to people who use CAD to do similar to what you want to do, see what they use, cost etc., then pick one and stick with it. The more you practice the better, and faster you will get. Good help is also a blessing, if you can find it.
With my model building, I've mostly used Autocad2004LT, its relatively simple and I've only produced 2D drawings, but then I've been using it a long time, and came from the drawing Board, so thinking in 3D to produce 2D drawings is not a problem for me.
Over the last 6 or so years I've been using Freeship/Delftship off and on, to produce the Hull shapes in 3D, then imported into Sketchup to do the deck houses and fittings. The last 1 to 2 years haven't been able to do any of my hobby drawings due to work and home pressures, and the layoff will mean it will take a little time and practice to get back into things, which is normal.
So decide what you want to do, find a program that will do that within your budget and practice, practice and practice.
Good luck
:-))
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yes CAD is a funny software, there is never just one way to get the result you want, there isn't a right way and a wrong way, some ways are easier for one thing, but make another harder, after 24 years of using CAD on a daily basis I am still learning new, easier ways to do things, new commands. but that said once you make a start you can soon pick up enough to make a good start, plus there is a lot of help out there in internet land in the form of tutorials and other articles.
Grendel
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what learned people you are,i was lost at the fist stage...interesting....tony
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Grendel is right
Cad is funny software
Which is why people like us strange individuals like to be challenged on a daily basis
Maybe its our Adrenalin fix
On the last year of my apprenticeship, in the spacial projects dept, at the Rover Co in 1966 we dabbled with a very simple 2D drawing package
It was shelved after early trials, the drawing board was by far the quickest and best
Fife
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a few years before I started with CAD we did trial a drawing machine, it could draw lines circles and write text that was typed in, but had to be positioned over the right place on the drawing first, that would have been about 1984-85 ish.
Grendel
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my company bought one of the first A0 scanners made, it weighed close on a ton, had 12 cameras mounted on a solid aluminium bar 3"x6", adjusting the cameras was the work of 2 to 3 days, then each had to have dots affixed to reduce the aperture, the cost, somewhere in the region of £125,000 my department acquired it after about 10 years, kept it for another 6 or so, then when scanners came down to a few thousand each, we scrapped it, I cut a section of the 2" steel square section from the frame to make a towbar, that section was nearly 3/8" thick walls, you could have driven a tank over that beast without disturbing the alignment.
Grendel
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Its not as hard to do as people thick. I learned the majority of Solidworks in 2 weeks.
Probably quite over whelming to most , i taught my daughter the basics one evening and she was 5 at the time.
There are quite a few tutorials out these but an hour or 2 with someone who knows what they are doing 1 evening will probably get you going in the right direction.
If you do decide to do a collage course then use your student status to get a student version of one of the cad software packages which will save yourself a fourtune.
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If your new to CAD, no, its not all that hard.
And if you have someone who knows the software to show you the basics, then its easier still.
But, if you have used Autocad, as I have since v2.8, then try and learn Solidworks or similar, on your own without any support, then its a very uphill battle. What you already know and do in Autocad, simply does not hack it in Solidworks.
The trick to learning any new CAD package, is to have someone who knows, walk you through, and be available for the inevitable questions which will follow.
This is the only way I've been able to learn four packages I've had to learn and use as a professional Design Draughtsman, just retired.
The fact that I did 20 years "on the board", before CAD came along helped enormously through the CAD years, as to draw something on the board, you had to have a 3D picture of it in your mind. With CAD, to many can't do this and simply construct things in the computer, and accept what the machine tells them. Very dangerous.
Yogibear's and Grendel's advice is very sound, and if you want to do CAD, find a 3D parametric program or similar, not Autocad, unless Inventor at a pinch. And the student versions are a huge saving in cost.
Just my penny's worth
cheers
:-))
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Funnily enough, had autodesk called me yesterday to talk about updating the AutoCad 2008LT we have at work, I basically told him that if we ever decide to change the pc's and the OS will not run our program then we would look at another platform as the cost is too much with them, especially that the program needs to be 'in touch' with their server every 14 days, a subscription is required either yearly or every 7 years, really not interested in the whole bells and whistles at work as we only create fabrication drawings and simple layouts, for special clients I do 3D visualisations to show how the equipment would look in their clients premises - but I use my CAD at home for that.
The bit I am getting to is that I gave him a bit of feedback on the Autocad 15 - and how unfriendly it is, the software designers have made it very difficult to do the most simpliest task in their efforts to make it different from previous releases - so some functionality has been lost, he said that they had various complaints and these had been addressed in this lastest version - yea right, still told him its mainly down to cost why we will more than likely change to another platform.
Being self taught and keeping to the basic functions is all I am capable of - and agree that the board is faster (1984 - 1997), so having someone experienced is always a god send.
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Hi Warspite,
very familiar the senario you describe.
I retired about 4 months ago, from an engineering consulting firm which would be one of the bigges inNZ, with 5 offices spread over the main centres. They upgrade Autocad every 12 months, and they are now one year licences to use the software. Don't renew for the next release, you can't use the software. They also use other speciallist software from Autodesk, with the same arrangement.
Costs them a fortune every year.
Me, I have a proper licenced copy of AutocadLT2004, which I now run on my Sony Vaio i7 running windows 7. Ask Autodesk, if it will run on this computer, and the answers probably not.
I use Delftship and Sketchup to, which covers all I want to do with my boat and model drawing.
Works for me
cheers
:-))
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I'me very surprised cad has been around for so long, I thought it was a relativley new technology.
As far as I am aware and here I paste a quote in red from http://www.westwoodworks.net/HowItWas/TheDrawingOffice/index.htm (http://) (Westwood Works was the office and factory of Baker Perkins Ltd) and I believe that these were the first terminals in the UK. There were enough UK govt ministers looking at the equipment at the time.
The first 4-terminal CAD/CAM system was introduced in the spring of 1977.
It was the first Unigraphics system to be installed outside of North America. The software ran on a Data General S200 with 128 kilobytes of main memory (you read that correctly, less then 0.13 MB), a 96 MB removable disk drive, a 9-track backup system, a paper tape punch/reader and a Calcomp 960 plotter. This turnkey configuration, including the Unigraphics software, cost over $400,000 (in 1977 dollars) and required the setting up of special facilities including an air conditioned room for the CPU and disk drive and special controlled lighting for the terminal room.
The former Apprentice School (built in 1952?) is now a Grade 2 listed building and all that remains on the "old" site.
In reply to vnkiwi, Delftship failed to load on an iMac but have you tried LibreCad which is free to use on Windows, Linux and Apple software?
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I started on CAD - Computer Aided Drawing, back in mid 1984, using an Australian written piece of software written by engineers and draughtsmen in Queensland, called "Palette". Ran on a macro/mini computer which was similar to bj describes, around the size of two microwaves, back to back, tape backup etc. We ran 4 terminals off ours and our project ran 12 terminals. Had 15 layers which could be worked on by different stations simultaniously. Cost per computer and 4 terminals in 1984, not adjusted figure, $100,000aud, adjust that to todays numbers will give some idea how expensive they where.
You selected the sheet size you wanted, pen thickness, and away you went drawing.
No PC's then to run on. I had a Tandy, colour computer then. My current hand calculator is more powerful than them.
Mid 1985, I started using Autocad v 2.8, real stupid piece of software written by American programmers, who had not a lot of knowledge of draughting. Paperspace/model space didnt arrive until very early 1990, if memory serves with I think v10. sorta useful from then onwards.
I worked at a ship-builders in South Australia, 1987, when they purchased an "Intergraph" 3D CAD package from someone in Victoria, came in 2 containers, one for the computer itself, the other containing the 4 dual screen workstations. Was considered "old" then, but they used it for a quite a number of years to design and build ships. Would have used it for the submarine project but they missed the selection. All they built was the ship lift and buildings for the Sub-Corp.
So, yes, CAD does go back a ways, but its only comparatively recently that affordable 3D packages have been available for the average draughtsman at home. Prior to that, companies had to have huge budgets for big jobs to justify them.
Just as an aside, I started working in 1967, at the NZ Ministry of Works, that same year they installed a computer for engineering design, no drawing. Cost $1,000,000nzd, in 1967 dollars, and took up the whole basement of a new 14 story building. Tape input, and wardobe size cabinets with the tape reel window. All in airconditioned rooms. You punched your cards, checked them, took them down, next day you went down to collect the tractor feed continuous printout, with a trolley. To big to carry, man this forests took a hammering back then.
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I remember the first two intergraph systems we had installed at our office - we were told they cost the same as a ferrari each (about £32,000 at the time I believe)
Grendel