Model Boat Mayhem
Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => Tutorials & "How To’s" ... => Topic started by: Captain Povey on July 29, 2007, 09:03:05 pm
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Hi all you experienced model boat men out there. It has been suggested that on oiler should be fitted to the prop tube to ensure constant lubrication and reduce wear of these parts during operation. I assume this means removing the rudders and prop shafts, drilling a small hole on top of the tube, cleaning out all the swarf and fixing a flip lid oiler over it. I am not confident about silver soldering one in place with a gas lamp and doubt that my electric soldering iron would store enough heat so is it totally stupid to consider Aralditing one in place. Some suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks Graham. :-\
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Hi Graham
I use a 75watt soldering iron to fix my oilers to the prop tube. I always find that using araldite at any setting time does not stick to metal, it looks OK but can easily be peeled off. I also think that if it had not sealed properly there is always the chance of some moisture ingress.
I make my oilers out of a short length of brass tube soldered to the propshaft, then fit some flexible tubing that can be sealed after you have oiled/greased the tube. I usually use tube the same size as one of my syringes, so can pump in the oil/grease.
Brian
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After soldering the tube to the prop shaft tube, then place your drill inside the new tube and drill a hole in the prop tube taking care not to go through the other side of the prop tube. Make sure you clean out all the swarf.
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Hi Dicky
I did not put that in my first posting ::) ::)
I always make the hole first, just large enough for the oiler tube, just in case I drilled through doing it the other way :D :D
Brian
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Sorry Brian I always drill the hole last so i dont fill the shaft tube with solder. Also doesn't matter to much where the oiler tube ends up.
There you go 2 ways of How To Do It. ;D
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If you drill the hole first and use a barbecue stick poked in the hole and slide the tube over, it holds the tube as you solder and does not take heat away from the soldering iron that pliers would take holding the tube.
fredy
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Thanks everbody I will give the soldering a try. Cheers Graham :)
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Also, try using "active plumber flux", available from DIY shops.
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A high wattage soldering iron is the best bet in an existing model, which I did to my first model, after realising the difficulty of getting grease or oil in to an already installed shaft. Having learned from that experience, I now build grease tubes in to all my prop shafts before installation. I usually make my own prop shafts, so adding a grease tube is no big drama, just an appropriately sized hole in the shaft tube, in the correct place of course, silver soldered in. I make a cap tube about 3cm long, of a size that is a neat slide fit over the grease tube, and seal it with a piece of brass sheet at one end. After filling the prop tube with grease, I use waterproof outboard motor grease, the prop shaft is inserted and connected up. When it is necessary to top up the grease, some is inserted in to the cap tube using a small hypodermic syringe obtained from our local vet, without a needle, then the cap is slid over the grease tube, forcing the grease in to the prop tube. I have been asked if grease, rather than oil, places an additional load on the motor. It may do, but as none of my boats are high speed jobs, and all are driven through a belt and pulley reduction, no adverse effects have been noted, and grease is easier to prevent from leakage than oil.
Peter.
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I've always found that when retro-fitting an oiler tube to a shaft, the placing of a section of wet 'spontex' saves premature bonfire celebrations, a tight fitting tube in the hole and pencil gas torch finishes the job. i use a plumbers flux that urns the job pink when the correct heat is reached too.
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Hi all, If you are stuck and you havent got a big enough soldering iron/old fashioned coppersmiths/tinsmiths iron, the type they used to heat up on a gas ring.
Here is an alternative method:
Drill hole in the top of the prop shaft (as mentioned in earlier postings) then you will require a piece of copper tube/brass tube, which is a neat fit over the outside diameter of your prop shaft. Cut a section off approx 1 inch long - drill a hole in the top of that and solder your Oiler into that. Make sure that the inside is cleaned up and flush.
Then cut it down the length so that you have 2 x U shapes. One section with the oiler tube soldered in and the other bit is gash. Now, rough up the prop tube around the area of where the hole is drilled in the prop shaft and Araldite this U shaped piece in place on top of your prop shaft.
Then, bind over the top with thin copper wire. Add a little bit more Araldite/Epoxy whatever.
Once it has hardened, run a drill through your oiler tube to ensure that you clear out all Araldite/Epoxy that has formed in the oil tube .
Aye
John E
Bluebird
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These make it easy if you cannot solder.
http://www.pandanmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_Propshafts.html
Fredy
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Thanks again all. I checked out the soldering iron and it is only 25 watt and I'm afraid the old copper heat over a gas ring irons went in bin ages ago. As am still not sure there is space to wield a mini gas torch so John's strap on device looks good and I used to be dab hand with the old exhaust bandage and wire applied upside down under a Morris Minor. Failing that I can try the Gruappner ones from Pandan if the mm sizes fit. Cheers Graham. :)
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I saved all that trouble with oiler tubes and oil by using grease. I guess it just depends on how you'd rather do it...
- 'Doc
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I saved all that trouble with oiler tubes and oil by using grease. I guess it just depends on how you'd rather do it...
- 'Doc
It can also be dictated by the model. I tried grease in my Revel U-boat conversion but using long thin shafts and very small motors meant the shafts wouldn't even turn. I was left with needing to use oil and therefore I had to fit a tube in a plastic model.
I drilled the stern tubes to clear the oiler tubes, cleaned out the tubes and holes and araldited the oiler tubes in. To give the required strength I supported the tubes at the top end with a drip tray and then covered the entire joint area in the hull with a depth of resin.
Sometimes the glued path may be the only one but with a few precautions it can be just as good a job as soldered and a lot less hazardous.
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stupid question, but here goes, I have been forcing grease into my prop shaft with a syringe. I see the value in using oil, less drag etc, but why won't the oil leak out at the propshaft end?, and spray out at the motor end? Thanks
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It will, if the clearances are not good enough!
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I did post this in "Prop tube oilers " but it should have been this one
There is another way , leave it dry. at the prop end use a piece of Teflon water acts as a lubricant, and at the top make a simple adapter and use a sealed stainless steel bearing. these are readily available very cheap as the Buggy boys use them just change it once a year or more often if it gets a lot of use. I used this on a tug that was a problem a few years ago no problems . the adapter needs to be a reasonable fit and can be as long as you want,I just used one grub screw and a bit of lock tight the shaft did have a bit of fall on it so the water runs away when not in use. I also have put a small felt block in or a bit of graffiti yarn as used in steam engines very lose fit this helps.
Fred
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two points guys one for soldering, the electric irons are getting redundant nowadays google the gas cat irons, incredible temperatures and fare neneater and no cord. Secondly graupner do oilers for between 2.40 and 2.80 for 2 dependant on shaft size that just screw in place, for those that hate soldering
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Model World look at post 11
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A Model world sorry to correct you but Sealy tools sell irons from 25w to 100w and are readily available from mots good car accessory shop's or motor factors and the 100w wont even break the bank at £25squid
Stavros
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A point to watch with gas cat irons is the exhaust. There is a blast of incredibly hot spent gas shooting out sideways. Not normally a problem out on the bench, but could be a bit thrilling in a confined space, or anywhere near plastic.
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two points guys one for soldering, the electric irons are getting redundant nowadays google the gas cat irons, incredible temperatures and fare neneater and no cord. Secondly graupner do oilers for between 2.40 and 2.80 for 2 dependant on shaft size that just screw in place, for those that hate soldering
Check out http://www.expotools.com/ if you think soldering irons are becoming redundant, they have loads from 15w to 175w all makes and sizes. ;)
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Sorry guys I did not make myself clear, Yes there are hundreds of makes of soldering irons out there of the electric variety and still being bought by hundreds of people who have perfect service out of them and do a perfect job, what I should have said is that it seems around me the professional modellers that do this for a living they all use gas cats mostly bought from Maplins when on offer at 20 a set, same can be said of many a modeller we know it seems most are now using gas cats and it just appeared to me that its the in thing but I stand corrected,
The ones that use them and they convinced me they are better use them as there is no cord (which is usually too short) and the temperature's they reach are far far in excess of electric irons. a prime example being soldering suppressors to cans of motors with electric as soon as it touches the can it will automatically cool the iron as the can is cooler so you then wait while it heats up again whereas the gas cat temperature being far higher is pretty what instantaneous. on the down side they do have an exhaust as pointed out and you can melt many a thing with if not watched. As I said I am not advocating its the end of soldering iron electric variety, its just everyone surrounding us seems to be using them as a back up iron now
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I solder brass, motors, electronicks ,etc and my irons stay at the temperature they where set at. and as hot as I want them if you pay for Professional equipment , you get temperature and controle
Peter
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Yes totally agree with you HS93 proffesional equipment is the best but of coures can come at a price
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Hello all, Just a couple of things. I decided my 40 year general purpose soldering iron was too big for some of the recent jobs more delicate jobs and went for a solder station with small tip, holder and temperature control from Maplin all for £10. Seems to work OK. On the oiler front I do not trust myself with soldering irons or blow lamps inside a model so I have decided after all your input to go for a 'horses for courses' approach. So for the Smit Nederland where the prop tubes emerge for a short distance into a well I will glue on a tube and surround it with epoxy (Bunkerbarge). For the St Canute where the tube is deep down in a confined space I will fabricate a piece out side the model, strap it on, and then surround it with a resin (Bluebird), for the Waverider I have ordered the Gruapner (red) version from A Model Boats who do have minimum order charge unlike some others as Graupner Germany would not sell them to me direct. Cheers Graham
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:embarrassed: oops I was not paying attention to my typing or thinking when I made the last post so please let me correct it. It is A Model World that does not have a minimum charge. Apologies to all. :embarrassed: Graham
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Hi all, Just a couple of quick pics of the quickly delivered oilers fitted to 8mm shaft, extension tube and flip top oiler added by me. This was easy, onto the more difficult ones next week, perhaps. During the strip down it was interesting to note that rust was starting to form on the shaft after the last sailing. So oil not only important for running but storage too. Cheers Graham. O0
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Following my previous post,here's what I really wanted to say.
I've just soldered up my prop tubes with a 75watt iron and found it a little on the cool side. Unfortunately, because I couldn't remove the teflon bearings due to narrow inside shoulders they popped anyway while soldering. The result was distorted bearings which needed reaming out with a smooth file to make a good fit. This on five inch shafts. So much for teflon, give me brass any time.
I then filled the tubes with teflon grease which I reckon will keep them lubricated anyway, and then I'll use the oiler later to fill any voids in the shaft. I've found that this worked well on previous models. It has the benefit of not poisoning the yabbies because the grease contains the oil in the shaft and keeps the PC brigade quiet.
I think the next step might be to see what Maplins have to offer in solder stations...............
I think the previous posting of bolt on oilers looks pretty cool and neat.
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Hello all, Just an update on this topic having now fitted two home made oilers to the Smit Nederland. The pictures show the limited space when fitting to an existing model like this. The oilers were made from odd bits of brass tube soldered together using a gas blow lamp outside the model. They were then tack glued into place, two washers added and the hole lot potted. The prop tube was then drilled and the plastic tube + flip top oilers added. Cheers Graham. O0
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Nice neat job Graham O0
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Thanks for your kind words Richard. You should have been around when I unclamped the things after soldering only to find that in my haste I had failed to notice that there was so much heat still in the assembly that the solder was still molten and the lot fell to pieces before it hit the floor. The word used then was close to rollocks. Perhaps this belongs in the mistakes we made section.Cheers Graham. :)
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With regard to the gas/cat irons if you are in the UK B&Q depot do a set with 3/4 different bits also serves as a miniature blow lamp. All for under £20-00p. Had one a year now and found it to be superb.
Colin H.
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Buzzing through this thread I think (Probably wrong) that I posted a simpler idea. The main reason you want a prop tube oiler on a "ship" (as opposed to a racing boat) is to keep the water out. There is no need to go through all the trouble/hassle and expense of fitting whatever "oiler" you think is appropriate. I did all that, soldering grease nipples to thin tubes, wondering about the strength of the joint. Then I got to thinking...why? It is'nt as if the prop centre is 20' under the surface of the water with allthe pressure. We are only talking about a couple of inches or so. So what pressure? (Unless you build submarines). So, realistically we are only talking about keeping wayer out of a small gap at atmospheric pressure. Solution. Just drill a hole into the outer shaft tube in a convenient place, the hole large enough to accept whatever gloop you want to insert and then just slide a "Terry Clip" or a tube of sliding fit over the hole and the job is done. THERE IS NO PRESSURE! And it works. Free, cheap and easy. Don't be fooled into buying expensive "oilers" when they are not needed.
Sorry to all you retailers out there, but thats the way it is.
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There may be a slight down side to that ,when the shaft bushes wear a bit at the Prop end and you forget to put gloop/oil in if the shaft is below the water line if you have a short pipe on it there is less chance of getting water drips in , also there is more chance of it getting a squirt of oil if you just have a pipe, but each to there own.
Peter
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I use phosphour bronze bushes and bright drawn steel for my propshaft. If the bushes are machined and reamed properly, very little water gets through. In fact on most of my shafts, no water gets through at all.
I dont worry about lubrication, the shafts are free enough to turn and the amount of use they get is so little that wear is a non issue, on scale ships anyway. My inner bushes never get even warm.
Fast boats are a different animal completely!
Ian
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Hi all, I agree there is no pressure forcing water in and that was not the reason for wanting to fit oilers. O0 The reason was that after stripping down an old boat and noticing how corroded the prop shaft was after being in store for some time after the last sail. :o It therefore seemed logical to have means of introducing some corrosion protection after sailing without stripping down. 8) Having made my own and fitted some bought ones I think the bought ones are good value. O0 After all what is a couple of quid compared with the hours spent finding material and making your own. :angel: I suppose it depends on how much you think your time is worth and how much of it you have on hand to waste. :-\ Cheers Graham. :)
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Graham, regarding the problem you had with corrosion, I assume you are using steel rod for your prop shafts, or even brass, which will corrode in time. I have made it a policy to use stainless steel shafting in all my models as we sail in salt water. I use outboard motor grease as a lubricant, and have had no trouble with water accessing the hull through the prop tube. As I mentioned in a previous post, I make all my own prop tubes, and silver solder a greasing tube in them. In a recent modelling magazine, there was an article on shaft lubrication in which the author suggested that grease was not a good option, as it creates friction. I have experienced no problems in this regard, as all my models are relatively slow, but I imagine that friction would be a problem with high speed boats.
Peter.
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Hi Peter, Thanks for your input. You are correct the shaft was steel but then it was from a very old boat and probably from a time when stainless was hard to come by and very expensive. With hindsight it would have been a good idea to remake it in stainless which I can now get my hands on. I agree grease is probably ok for most of my boats which are not fast by modern standards. I have also learnt that the selection of the correct grease is important for high speed applications as we once fitted to some standard bearings in unit at work which we then ran at speeds of 20000rpm and they generated a so much heat that most of the grease was thrown out. Cheers Graham :)