Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Steam => Topic started by: bwatman on September 17, 2017, 05:41:58 pm
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Hello, I am new to this forum and I have recently purchased a Krick 'Victoria' model Steam Launch to build. Although I am not new to boat modelling, I am new to Steam Power.
I therefore find myself in a quandary regarding the appropriate steam plant to use on this 1:10 scale and 1077mm long model steam launch.
It goes without saying that it needs to look the part for this era and size of boat, therefore a vertical boiler would be the right choice.
The Krick recommended 'Victor 2' steam plant is available but no longer manufactured I therefore have concerns about future support for spares etc.
Similarly, the Regner midi steam plant is in the same situation.
Stuart Models have a Puffin on sale which looks good but again no longer manufactured. I am not sure in the longer term, as spares/parts become scarce, this is a good buy.
I have also looked at the Libra Vertical Plant Kit and TVR steam engines.
Has anyone got any views on which plant will be suitable to power my model in the inevitable choppy waters you find on most sailing ponds/lakes etc.
I believe a Twin Cylinder engine should give it the best chance.
What about ancillaries.
I realise that I cannot just fix it in the model boat and off we go!What other equipment do I need to get to a go state? -
- Condenser tank What size should it be?
- Gas Tank What size and what sot of gas do you recommend to use with the boiler?
- Boiler How big should the boiler be?
- Additional FittingsSilicone tubing or is fixed copper best for connecting to ancillary equipment?
-Steam stop valveTo shut off steam to the engine required?
-Syphon PipeWhat is the purpose of the syphon pipe?
- Nice to have maybe?
Steam Electric gas regulator?
Brass Oil Cups?
Servo gas valve?
whistle valve?
What Else?
I realise this is a bit of an ask but if you could comment on the above I would appreciate it.
Are there any Books, References or Links you can give me so that I can understand how the plant works and how to operate/maintain a steam plant correctly.
I have three cost options presently,
LIBRA (£650 + Condenser, gas tank etc. + del)
Puffin (£650 + Condenser, gas tank etc. + del)
SMS Clyde 3" (£698 (includes condenser & gas tank) +del £35
I look forward to your replies and hope to input into how I get on over the build and final sailing stages
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Greetings -
Even though I am on the other side of the pond, let me welcome you to the forum.
As a relative noob here myself, I can tell you that there is a lot to be learned by just searching the forums.
That being said - and as an owner of a Krick Borkum, similar in weight to the Victoria, any 2 cylinder of the
types you mentioned will probably do you well.
You might also look at Miniature Steam from AUS. I have their Clyde engine and Vertical Boiler - works really nicely.
http://miniaturesteammodels.com/ (http://miniaturesteammodels.com/)
Regards,
Jim Pope
Denver,CO
USA
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Hello, I am new to this forum and I have recently purchased a Krick 'Victoria' model Steam Launch to build. Although I am not new to boat modelling, I am new to Steam Power.
I therefore find myself in a quandary regarding the appropriate steam plant to use on this 1:10 scale and 1077mm long model steam launch.
It goes without saying that it needs to look the part for this era and size of boat, therefore a vertical boiler would be the right choice.
The Krick recommended 'Victor 2' steam plant is available but no longer manufactured I therefore have concerns about future support for spares etc.
Similarly, the Regner midi steam plant is in the same situation.
Stuart Models have a Puffin on sale which looks good but again no longer manufactured. I am not sure in the longer term, as spares/parts become scarce, this is a good buy.
I have also looked at the Libra Vertical Plant Kit and TVR steam engines.
Has anyone got any views on which plant will be suitable to power my model in the inevitable choppy waters you find on most sailing ponds/lakes etc.
I believe a Twin Cylinder engine should give it the best chance.
What about ancillaries.
I realise that I cannot just fix it in the model boat and off we go!What other equipment do I need to get to a go state? -
- Condenser tank What size should it be?
- Gas Tank What size and what sot of gas do you recommend to use with the boiler?
- Boiler How big should the boiler be?
- Additional FittingsSilicone tubing or is fixed copper best for connecting to ancillary equipment?
-Steam stop valveTo shut off steam to the engine required?
-Syphon PipeWhat is the purpose of the syphon pipe?
- Nice to have maybe?
Steam Electric gas regulator?
Brass Oil Cups?
Servo gas valve?
whistle valve?
What Else?
I realise this is a bit of an ask but if you could comment on the above I would appreciate it.
Are there any Books, References or Links you can give me so that I can understand how the plant works and how to operate/maintain a steam plant correctly.
I have three cost options presently,
LIBRA (£650 + Condenser, gas tank etc. + del)
Puffin (£650 + Condenser, gas tank etc. + del)
SMS Clyde 3" (£698 (includes condenser & gas tank) +del £35
I look forward to your replies and hope to input into how I get on over the build and final sailing stages
Ok I will start at the top of your list and work down.
As to what engine and boiler to use I will leave that to others as I usually do my own (sorry but due to liability issues I am currently not selling any), but a twin is defiantly the way to go.
What about ancillaries
Condenser tank
This is a definite requirement.
This depends on what size boiler and how efficient your engine is, but about ¼ the size of your boiler.
Gas Tank
This one can be optional if you use a disposable canister.
Most setups will run on ether straight butane or butane/propane mix.
Unless you are running a large model stay away from straight propane unless you can use it in disposable bottles.
Boiler How big should the boiler be?
Boiler size depends on how long you want to run, how big you boat is and whether you can add feedwater.
- Additional Fittings Silicone tubing or is fixed copper best for connecting to ancillary equipment?
On the live steam side stay with copper at over 25psi, Silicone will work on the exhaust side but does not look good.
-Steam stop valve To shut off steam to the engine required?
YES
Syphon Pipe What is the purpose of the syphon pipe?
A Syphon Pipe is used to protect your pressure gauge, It is a U shaped pipe between the boiler and the Pressure Gauge. If you have a pressure gauge you need a syphon pipe.
Nice to have maybe?
Some of these are required.
Steam Electric gas regulator?
A nice to have, but learn to operate the boiler without one first.
Brass Oil Cups?
They don’t have to be Brass, but you need spots to apply oil.
Servo gas valve?
A definite want to have unless you like your model to imitate a Viking funeral boat.
If some thing goes wrong, boat stops, prop gits weeded up, you want to be able to turn the burner down and maybe off.
whistle valve?
A whistle and servo operated valve are not required, but are a lot of fun.
What Else?
A engine lubricator
A steam drier (supperheater)
Two Feedwater pumps
One hand operated and one ether engine or electric powered
Site Glass on boiler
Extra bushes on boiler for what you want to add later.
Are there any Books, References or Links you can give me so that I can understand how the plant works and how to operate/maintain a steam plant correctly.
On rcgroups
Here is a short list of Books.
(Maybe not so short ;<)
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?1226384-Books (https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?1226384-Books)
I am sure that others will chime in with what I forgot or with what they disagree with,
Welcome to the Gang.
Regards,
Gerald.
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Thank you for replies and comments to date - much Appreciated.
Jim - I am already looking at SMS Clyde Engine & Boiler Plants - look good.
Gerald- Your input and comments have helped me a lot.
I will look into getting some of the reference books from your link and will
certainly incorporate your comments in my choice of steam plant for the model launch.
Regards to you both, Don
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Hello
You could also check www.clevedonsteam.co.uk
They make nice oscilating engines and also sells ready to run plants. For Victoria I guess the Libra plant would be a good choice. You could write Jerry Watson, owner of the business, an email and I am sure he will be very helpful!
Best, Kaspar
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Hello Don, this is not meant to discourage you, just to help you avoid some common beginner mistakes. A steam plant with all accessories mentioned above will be very complex (and expensive). For your first steam plant you might want to use a simpler one, which will let you learn the basics without having to troubleshoot a lot of components. Twin oscillating engines are good for beginners because they have fewer parts, are robust and need only 1 servo to control speed and reversing.
A common mistake made by beginners (which I also made) is to choose an engine which is too big (in terms of displacement) for the boiler. This wastes steam and leads to short run times.
The combos usually offered by the steam plant makers as units (as a minimum: boiler, engine, fuel tank, burner, lubricator, condensate tank) are fine for starters and you have the advantage of the components being more or less suited to each other.
It is important to keep in mind the following:
- First: Make sure the steam plant fits the hull in terms of size AND weight. It can be quite frustrating to build a nice boat and upon testing it on water, to realize the weight of the steam plant would make it sink.
- The boiler/burner combo is what produces your power. Select one with sufficient water capacity and heating surface to drive your engine and offer a reasonable run time.
- The engine needs to be coupled[/size] to the largest diameter propeller you can fit to the hull. Steam engines have the advantage of high torque at very low rpm. If the propeller is too small for the engine (a very common mistake) it turns fast and wastes a lot of steam. If the propeller size is limited by the hull shape, choose a smaller engine accordingly. Most engine manufacturers make recommendation for suitable propeller size for their engines.- You will need a r/c steam valve to regulate speed if one is not already fitted to the engine.
- Vertical boilers are quite popular but they tend to have a higher center of gravity. Make sure it's not too much for the hull, or it would encourage the boat to roll.[/font]
- Pumps, gas shut off valves, gas and boiler pressure regulator valves, anti-vacuum valves are all very nice and useful but make your steam plant complex.[/font]
- Whistles are completely unnecessary, but are the single most fun accessory to have on a steam boat, thus highly recommended! And they are crowd pleasers at the lake
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Can I just reinforce the very sound advice given by KNO3..."The engine needs to be coupled to the largest diameter propeller you can fit to the hull. Steam engines have the advantage of high torque at very low rpm. If the propeller is too small for the engine (a very common mistake) it turns fast and wastes a lot of steam. If the propeller size is limited by the hull shape, choose a smaller engine accordingly. Most engine manufacturers make recommendation for suitable propeller size for their engines"
The question I get asked most is 'will one of your boilers power my boat?' The answer is invariably yes but for how long is very dependant on the above being employed.
Slow rpm + good psi + big prop = long run time.
Nigel
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Nigel would gearing up the connection between the engine and the prop work too. Have the prop turn 2 or 3 times for every one the engine turns?
Regards,
Gerald.
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Bonjour,
My colleagues are absolutely right, we install regularly too big machines for the hull and the boiler, the largest propeller is the best (regarding the volime of the machine of course), and the torque at low speed saves steam (autonomy).
This is why, often, on our models, the propeller has nit the correct scale of the boat, this is a choice I assume personnaly.
Example 1 : 7,5 cm3 ==> 3,5" (88 mm) + 100 x 160 mm boiler under less than 2 bars = more than 35 minutes of autonomy with whistle :-))
(http://pimg.imagesia.com/fichiers/1eb/helice1-liva1_imagesia-com_1eb04.JPG)
Example 2 : 2cm3 (Stephenson, more powerful than oscillating) + 2,5" (60 mm) + 80 x 120 mm boiler at 2 bars = about 20 minutes of autonomy :
(http://pimg.imagesia.com/fichiers/1f2/jds-gouvernail_imagesia-com_1f2vn.JPG)
Other examples (sorry in French) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVl2NCWmyXA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVl2NCWmyXA)
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Hi Gerald. Simple physics dictated that what you propose would work, but the big prop would be more accurate. My four year old daughter wanted to send you these... {-) %% :police: >>:-( <*<
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Thank you and her Nigel.
I figured it would work where you had reached the limit of prop size, but still had the engine racing. I have never tried it as I have been lucky and have used models that could use large props. I will have to try it out some time.
Regards,
Gerald.
(http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/Smileys/Tug/grin.gif) (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/Smileys/Tug/cheesy1.gif) (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/Smileys/Tug/police.gif) >:-(" src="http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/Smileys/Tug/tickedoff.gif"> (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/Smileys/Tug/grin.gif) (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/Smileys/Tug/cheesy1.gif) (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/Smileys/Tug/police.gif) >:-(" src="http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/Smileys/Tug/tickedoff.gif">
PS I had to copy and paste the above as I do not have them on this computer.
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Dear rhavrane
Thank you for the photos and video. Can you please tell me how close to real size these are (in terms of scale of course)?
Nigel
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Bonjour Nigel,
Liva 1 launch, about 1/10° scale would have a 900 mm propeller at scale 1. Jan de Sterke (1/20°) 1200 mm, Jacques (1/17°) 1 160 mm, Côte d'Emeraude (1/20°) 2 400 mm... Based on these figures, I would say that my propellers are a minimum 50 % too wide.
Please note that I always look for a maximun of autonomy at low pressure (2 bars) so, even on my replicas, I try to install the largest possible propeller or, if I can not, do not hesitate to install a 5 blades propeller, examples : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e69oRgchIrQ and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R3b5UoOYBs (to be coupled with a Stuart D10).