Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: Brian60 on December 23, 2017, 07:36:32 am
Title: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: Brian60 on December 23, 2017, 07:36:32 am
I came across this video and the way this guy explains stuff is really interesting, I especially like the way parts are highlighted with translucent colours....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHmgF4ibmuk
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: tony52 on December 23, 2017, 09:40:54 am
A superb clip Brian as my current research project is the Olympic.
Thanks
Tony
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: TurboTyne on December 27, 2017, 06:37:22 am
I agree that is a very good video. Several years ago I had access to the original copies of the journal "Engineering" from which he took many of his illustrations. I scanned the whole artcle and all the associated photos and drawings. If Tony or anyone else would like me to send the pdf file that I created just drop me a pm. Regards Mike
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: roycv on December 27, 2017, 09:16:25 am
Hi Brian, this documentary was on one of the cable channels a few days ago, I agree very good. With my techno son here I found out I could plug my TV into my laptop and watch doc's on the big screen. regards Roy
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: tony52 on December 27, 2017, 09:20:16 am
For any plastic kit builders, this link from the USA is a superb build of Minicraft's 1:350 Titanic.
Hi Brian, this documentary was on one of the cable channels a few days ago, I agree very good. With my techno son here I found out I could plug my TV into my laptop and watch doc's on the big screen. regards Roy
simply done with a hdmi cable, but if you are really technical and have a smart tv, you can stream it wirelessly - I found out on xmas eve when watching discovery channel and it suddenly went off to be replaced with xmas carols and a notice saying it was being streamed from 'karens Ipad' >:-o I went through to the kitchen to find her baking with carols happily playing from her tablet %% Now I profess I don't know how she did it, I suspect the tv is monitoring other wireless devices.
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: BrianB6 on December 27, 2017, 10:28:57 am
The film is on AGAIN on Melbourne TV as I type <:(
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: Martin (Admin) on February 11, 2018, 07:01:26 pm
https://youtu.be/rs9w5bgtJC8 - YouTube: Titanic sinks in REAL TIME - 2 HOURS 40 MINUTES
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: Martin (Admin) on November 12, 2022, 01:01:19 pm
Found this on Utube: Titanic steering gear.
https://youtu.be/CZe-exu2RBU
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: SteamboatPhil on November 12, 2022, 03:54:03 pm
Absolutely amazing, who knew, and a really good presenter :-))
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: T888 on November 12, 2022, 05:29:52 pm
Tonight at 7:00 on channel 4 “ Titanic Building the worlds largest ship”
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 12, 2022, 06:09:00 pm
Interesting video on Titanic steering. The engineering was surprisingly sophisticated really, including the hydraulics to the bridge.
These days, many cruise ships rely on thruster pods which push or pull the ship along and and move it in any direction.
Back in the 60s I watched the Cunard Queens sailing from Southampton and several tugs were needed to position the ships to facing down Southampton Water. In 2011 I was aboard Queen Mary 2 in the same Ocean Dock and the ship just moved quietly away from the quay sideways using bow thrusters and pods, backed out into Southampton Water, turned to seawards and was away with not a tug to be seen!
In contrast, the video I just posted of the carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth proceeding to sea from Portsmouth included several tugs as warships are not usually fitted with low speed directionsl means of propulsion. In fact the process was very similar to what I remembered from the 60s in Southampton!
Colin
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: derekwarner on November 13, 2022, 01:33:11 am
Thank Martin........I needed to rewatch the video twice [@ about 11:50+ minutes ] to make sure I understood this fundamental cockup :embarrassed: ....
Was it 1st Officer Murdock's Order [assumed as from the RN School of Navigation] or the Helmsman [Merchant training?] which caused the vessel to turn toward the iceberg? ....was this ever referenced in the subsequent investigations?
It would also be interesting to understand just when our World Navies [both Merchant and Military] stopped using 'rudder orders' based upon a 'handheld tiller' :-X
Derek
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: dodes on November 16, 2022, 04:54:18 pm
When I was on the R.M.S.S. St Margarets, i was shown the handbook for her steam steering motor, what was interesting it boasted of 12 previous vessels fitted with this type of motor and one was the Titannic. It was interesting because normally you have a quadrant secured to the rudder post head and the motor is bolted to the deck to turn it, but like the Titannic the motor was bolted on the end of a tiller arm and the quadrant was bolted to the deck, the steam pipe had a flexible connection on the rudder post head. Shame it was not removed for preservation when she was sold for scrap.
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: Geoff on November 17, 2022, 09:55:08 am
I've heard of this steering error before but believe there is some confusion as with a tiller you push the tiller to starboard to turn to port and vice versa. I freely admit I don't know the precise design of Titanic's steering set up but an order hard a starboard may indeed turn the ship to port. Think of how a dingy is sailed.
In the very old days the command was starboard or larboard which often caused confusion so "port" was introduced to avoid confusion. I also believe that as per dingy control the same set up was used in many merchant ships.
However this could all be an urban myth as to what order was given 110 years ago!!
Oddly enough if the Titanic had hit the iceberg head on she would easily have survived!
I also saw the programme on building the Titanic with all the safety measures put in place. It concluded that with three adjacent compartments flooded it would float but not four. It also concluded that modern cruise ships can only float with two adjacent compartments flooded!
Cheers
Geoff
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 17, 2022, 11:42:23 am
Re helm orders, see the link below for a full explanation.The change to direct helm orders for the Royal and Merchant Navy did not take place until 1933 so it is highly unlikely that a mistake would have been made on the Titanic. People don't do their homework!
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: dodes on November 17, 2022, 12:44:33 pm
I suppose it is self-preservation to order hard over to try to avert collision, but I remember we were told at college one should if at sea and collision was unavoidable to go stem on as it is the strongest point of a ship. Belief i saw a photo of the Lusitania or one of her co with a damage stem after hitting a iceberg stem on and survived with a crumpled stem.
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 17, 2022, 01:15:08 pm
I remember we were told at college one should if at sea and collision was unavoidable to go stem on as it is the strongest point of a ship.
As far as the Titanic is concerned, presumably the officer of the watch believed that he could avoid the iceberg and the ship very nearly did, it was the unseen underwater projections of the iceberg that ripped the hull open.
The reciprocating engines were put astern when the iceberg was sighted. The centre turbine was not reversible and so was stopped. It has been suggested that if the engines had been kept ahead the ship would hve been more responsive to the rudder, especially with it being in the waterflow from the central propeller. Like everything to do with Titanic there has been lots of discussion about it.
Colin
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: derekwarner on November 17, 2022, 11:57:16 pm
I find the following comment from - Thomas1, of June 2022 [posting #16 from Colin] very interesting :P ....Derek
"It stands to reason that the ship’s wheels were originally rigged to turn the wheel to starboard, in order to steer the ship to port. It was not until automobiles were common that new helmsmen were confused by the backwoods ship’s wheel
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: derekwarner on November 18, 2022, 12:05:46 am
I'll find a setup of the rudder post setup with pulleys & a wheel............... %)
:o %) :embarrassed: ...I am unable to find any references that suggest the original setup for a wheel to a tiller was anything but a stdb turn of the wheel which resulted in anything but a turn to stdb for the vessel O0
Derek
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: JimG on November 18, 2022, 12:23:46 pm
:o %) :embarrassed: ...I am unable to find any references that suggest the original setup for a wheel to a tiller was anything but a stdb turn of the wheel which resulted in anything but a turn to stdb for the vessel O0
Derek
References I have on the construction of wooden warships show the linkage between the wheel and the tiller on the rudder was arranged such that turning the wheel to port moved the tiller to starboard so the ship turned to port and vice versa. Going further back in time before the wheel larger ships were steered by a whipstaff ( a vertical rod linked to the tiller and hinged at deck level), moving this to port turned the ship to port by moving the tiller to starboard. As merchant ships and warships were set up identically their steering would be the same. In peacetime sailors moved between merchant ships and warships all of the time so would expect the steering and rigging to be the same so no need to relearn their skills.) Probably was an easier time in warships as they had a much larger crew to handle the sails and they could be sure to be better fed than on a merchantman. Jim
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: derekwarner on November 18, 2022, 09:47:03 pm
Courtesy of Wikipedia........
"On many vessels the helmsman stood facing the rear of the ship with the ship's wheel before him and the rest of the ship behind him—this still meant that the direction of travel of the wheel at its apex corresponded to the direction of turn of the ship. Having two wheels connected by an axle allowed two people to take the helm in severe weather when one person alone might not have had enough strength to control the ship's movements"
"On many vessels the helmsman stood facing the rear of the ship with the ship's wheel before him and the rest of the ship behind him—this still meant that the direction of travel of the wheel at its apex corresponded to the direction of turn of the ship. Having two wheels connected by an axle allowed two people to take the helm in severe weather when one person alone might not have had enough strength to control the ship's movements"
Derek
I find this rather unlikely to be the case, the helmsman woluld be facing forwards allowing him to keep an eye on both the sails and the compass. All of the old photos I have seen have the helmsman behind or to the side of the wheel facing the bow. The old wheels were large diameter to allow more effort to be used and it would make sense to stand at the side when steering, this allowed for a second helmsman on the other side (again facing forwards) for rough weather. Warships often had a double wheel, one in front and one behind the barrel the tiler lines ran on, to allow for up to 4 helmsmen in rough conditions. Jim
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: derekwarner on November 18, 2022, 11:34:57 pm
Hullo Jim.........I too found this rather questionable.........[however, for the record, we must remember the Wiki people or contributors to the boundless volumes are known to sometimes allow clouded content to be added to their pages]
1. suggesting that the first Helmsman faced the stern!..... :o ?? 2. like you, the images of twin wheels & two Helmsman who were always shown with each Helsman standing aside their respective wheel & each facing fwd, not standing fwd or aft of the wheel etc
Mr Hawkings blog suggests.....
"the Greenwich National Maritime Museum has a complete official record of the ship steering wheel's invention".....however concludes "it is not entirely clear how the ship wheel evolved during the 18th century :-X
Derek
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: dougal99 on November 19, 2022, 04:35:59 pm
Trust wikipedia? Rwad this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/the-reporters-63622746
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: dodes on November 19, 2022, 06:08:29 pm
Just been reading about Heims and rigging the tiller rope between the roller which had wheel attached to turn the roller and it would appear then in the late 18th century on in naval ships turn to port the wheel and the rudder goes to port, also only the large ships of the line had two wheels to allow more men to operate a heavy non- power steering system.
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 19, 2022, 06:28:09 pm
This photo shows the quadruple wheel mounted aboard HMS Warrior at Portsmouth.
Colin
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: derekwarner on November 20, 2022, 12:19:23 am
This may throw a Marling Spike in the works.......and our preconceived thoughts :o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3UX67RjrL0
Derek...... :-X
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: JimG on November 20, 2022, 12:49:55 pm
Just been reading about Heims and rigging the tiller rope between the roller which had wheel attached to turn the roller and it would appear then in the late 18th century on in naval ships turn to port the wheel and the rudder goes to port, also only the large ships of the line had two wheels to allow more men to operate a heavy non- power steering system.
It wasn't just ships of the line (3rd rate and above with at least 2 gun decks) that had double wheels. Here are the wheels from HMS Trincomallee and HMS Unicorn, both frigates. In high winds at their top speed it needed a lot of force to move the rudder even on smaller ships.
Jim
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 20, 2022, 01:28:39 pm
Here is Victory's rudder - not so different from the Titanic really.
Colin
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: dodes on November 20, 2022, 05:53:16 pm
When these vessels got a move on there was tremendous force on these rudders, because when you consider it, they act as a brake besides giving a sideways movement, I know when I went with old sailing barge masters, they tried to sail/steer by the sails and try not to use the rudder too much especially when racing. Even on a motor vessel you could see the difference with a good helmsman as on the end of a hours run, you could see the difference to a bad un.
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 20, 2022, 05:57:52 pm
I suppose it is the same principle with aircraft, they use ailerons to steer rather than the rudder.
Colin
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: Geoff on November 21, 2022, 11:05:15 am
Whilst the video commented on an exposed rope, its actually quite hard to cut. We have all tried the guns at fairgrounds, cut the string and win a prize. The string, or rope, tends to get pushed out of the way rather than cut so its very hard to get a prize.
Sometimes below decks they would also have a duplicate set of wheels and in action they would rig blocks and tackle to the end of the tiller in readiness if they lost the wheel.
Its all a question of leverage as well, because the thin wheel rope goes through blocks and tackles to multiply the force on the tiller head.
There are reports in rough weather of the steersman being hurled over the wheel when a rogue wave hits the rudder.
Later steel ships used steam driven worm drives to turn the rudder so loss of steam pressure means no rudder.
Cheers
Geoff
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: JimG on November 21, 2022, 11:58:12 am
I suppose it is the same principle with aircraft, they use ailerons to steer rather than the rudder.
Colin
To make a proper balanced turn without skidding they use both ailerons and rudder, In many older aircraft designs the turn was always started with rudder before use of aileron. One of the main flight instruments is the side slip indicator, the pilot should always endeavour to keep this central during a turn.
Jim
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: dodes on November 22, 2022, 02:30:33 pm
When I was on the St Margarets, in event of steam/ power failure, she had two large block and tackles rigged ether side to shackle on the end of the tiller arm to steer by, thank fully it was never tried!!
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: dodes on November 22, 2022, 07:01:44 pm
I found this illustration of a typical man of war sailing ship rudder system, and also what at first glimpse without glasses on a diagram of a slavers stowage, which turned out to be hammock stowage on the lower deck but is also how crew were stuffed in together, believe that two watches filled up the inside with the other watch tending to the ships requirements i know Victory could not accommodate every one below deck.
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: dodes on November 22, 2022, 07:04:05 pm
I have reworked the pic, bit squashed on first attempt
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: dodes on November 22, 2022, 07:10:07 pm
Sorry I give up, in my files the pic is correct, but it is of the 1799 Bedford with a good history of sleeping conditions, Pretty awful the P.O. elected to sleep in the Hawser tier on the orlop deck as it was a good quite spot.
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: JimG on November 22, 2022, 08:02:48 pm
This appears to be a frigate which has a lower deck (below the gundeck) only used for berthing and as a messdeck. On ships of the line the berthing was on the gundecks, hammocks could be slung over the guns. So Victory had 3 decks they could use to sling hammocks so enough room for all. Tables were set up between guns for eating and off duty and these were stowed away in action. Each sailor was allocated a space for his hammock 1 1/2 feet wide so it was a tight fit when all were off watch in harbour. At sea it depended on the watch system how much space was available. This started as a two watch system where only half of the crew were off duty so there was twice the space for the hammock but later changed to the three watch system where only a third was on duty so less extra room for those sleeping. Generally the equivalent of modern day petty officers were allocated space next to the hull which gave them extra room. Jim
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: derekwarner on November 22, 2022, 09:55:32 pm
As dodes says......
"in event of steam/ power failure, she had two large block and tackles rigged ether side to shackle on the end of the tiller arm to steer by"
This is completely standard fitment, it is in fact for Lloyds 100A1 insurance..........in a previous life, I was tasked in providing a 100,000 tonner ANL vessel steering gear pump [1 of 2] stripdown for the Lloyds Surveyor
Apart from the pump & valving, an element of the Certification was his inspection of each of two 10 tonne chain blocks, each located in it's own fixed tool locker [just under the eye blocks welded each side to the steering gear room hull frames]
Derek
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: dodes on November 23, 2022, 05:05:08 pm
Still i remember walking down a walkway in a Leander and on one side there was 5 x tiered bunks the whole length, which men slid into with a little curtain to draw to give some privacy, remember my brother who's ship it was saying it's not much better anywhere else except if you was an officer?
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: roycv on November 24, 2022, 12:04:07 am
Hi I remember crossing the North Sea in a gale. It was just before Christmas in 1957 I was in the RAF being transported to Germany via The Hague in Holland. 170 of us were down a 'hold' with 5 tier bunks you had to take your kit bag with you and stuff it where you could. One guy put his next to a deadlight that was not properly closed and the sea water sprayed in he could barely lift it when we arrived.
There was one narrow very steep ladder in and out. I laid on a bunk and watched a loose small length of chain swing almost through 60 or 70 degrees above my head.
They really took care of you in those days! I guessed what might happen on deck and strapped my peak cap on, as we emerged into the gale there were dozens of hats floating out to sea.
We were put onto one of various 'coloured' trains like red, green, blue whatever, we travelled for hours and hours no idea where we were, it was now night time I was asleep and a fellow traveller woke me up and said "I think this might be where you get off"
I picked up my bag and got off, the train left, I was on my own on a railway station in Germany it was pitch black and then someone shone a torch, called my name and I got into the back of a lorry.
I had a technical job maintaining radar equipment on Canberra bombers lots of training courses. We had exercises for being attacked with atom bombs in which case our bombers would have loaded up and gone. To the RAF I was now surplus and I had the job after an attack of going into the drop zone and measuring the radio activity.
When I returned I would probably have died due to radiation sickness. I never travelled curtesy RAF again I paid my own fare.
Happy to leave but took my training with me.
Sorry did not mean to hi-jack the thread, it just brought a small nightmare to light.
Roy
Title: Re: Titanic - fascinating
Post by: dodes on November 26, 2022, 12:27:38 pm
Reminds me of my dad's cousin story of when he was called up for national service in the RAF, he said he turned up at this camp in the middle of no where. He was shown to his Nissan hut accommodation, which had a broken window, heavy snow everywhere and it was freezing cold. When he got inside the only heating was a coke burner, needless to say he was cold most of the time, but hey ho he made 70.