Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Beginners start here...! => Topic started by: supaboat on June 30, 2018, 11:18:46 am
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Due to cost considerations I would like to build a rc boat from foamboard which I can purchase cheaply from HOBBYCRAFT.
Could somebody please tell me which water proof glue to use.
What type of paint can I use.
Lastly, I'm told I Cannot use a transmitter for areoplanes and drones. So, what electronics would you guys suggest for me please. I have a budget of around £150 for the electronics.
Thanks for your help....
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Welcome to the forum Supaboat!
What type of boat are you looking to build?
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Thanks for the welcome.
It will be a bog standard type boat about 50cm long. I've still to design it but have it in my head. Nothing fancy. Hope my vague description sort of helps you?????
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You can't use a 35mhz aircraft transmitter, you can use any 2.4ghz transmitter for boat use. Easiest way to tell if you don't know is 2.4ghz transmitters have short aerials, generally around 6 inches. also worth noting you can use 40mhz gear, but these days very few do. 2.4ghz systems are cheaply available from Hobbyking.
Foam board is ok, but won't be durable and won't last long, maybe consider balsa or ply, the more traditionally used material.
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Thanks Andyn, would you be able to tell me which primer and paint would be best to use??
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You could do worse than build a Springer instead of trying to design your own boat. The topsides can be your choice. As for cheap material any old wooden drawers for example will provided a much more robust wooden boat then foamboard. Another material that is cheap or free is expanded foam, the blue or pink builder`s insulation foam , not the white stuff made of bubbles and used for packing. Check the Springer threads on this forum. Is the EH on you location Edinburgh ? If so join the local club, maybe find some second hand gear cheap but also a wealth of how-to-do-its. Good luck and welcome to mayhem.
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Thanks arrow5 for all the tips. I'm in Bathgate area but what you say about joining a club makes perfect sense. I'll check around for one that is close to me as I have a mobility problem. Will definately check out the springer websites you mentioned. The other reason I thought of foamboard was to see if my design would work. If it does, then I will rebuild with balsa wood.
Anybody able to suggest what type of glue and paint I should use? Thanks guys.
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If you're thinking of that foam artists board they sell in hobbycraft then you're going to have to be very careful how you seal it, it's paper on absorbant foam.
There's very good reason why no-one uses foamboard over wood %)
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Plus I don't want to discourage you from experimenting but re-inventing the wheel is difficult O0 since the first dug-out canoe to ekranoplans I think you will find that your design will have been tried before. Regarding glues, again suck-it and see is best. For wood glues I use Titebond III , Devcon 5 minute epoxy, Gorilla Glue expanding/foaming type and superglue from Loctite. Remember your joints really are dependent on the material you are gluing and must be waterproof . Weak point on foamboard is the paper. Avoid expensive spray-can paints. cellulose based paints can eat/dissolve some materials. Brushed oil paints are slower but more user friendly and let you get on with other things while they dry. Join a club, build a Springer, your choice of top. All these pics are on Springer easy to build hulls.
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I hear what you say about the paper on the foamboard in question. Its easily removed with warm water. I usually do this when I build a diorama. I get its not as tough as balsa wood and will keep that in mind.Thanks for the other glue tips.
Thanks for the Springer pictures,they are superb.
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Balsa isn't a very good choice either, soft and absorbent. harder wood and/or ply is better.
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You can get various grades of Balsa from soft and quite weak to quite hard requiring tools of greater strength. The issue is whether you have a model shop near you and if so, whether their range of balsa is large enough for you to choose your pieces. A friend of mine who owns a model shop said that he does not invest in products he sells infrequently, so if the shop does not sell much wood, he might not restock as much as we would like.
In the end ply is a good material, and if you know someone who is a carpenter, or know someone who knows a carpenter, you may well be able to get some choice offcuts. What we would consider a useful sized piece might be considered waste by a carpenter.
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I have balsa boats that were built in the 60's and 70's and are still going strong. none are fibreglassed or resined. like most boats All it takes is care and attention. I've seen boats that are made of papermache stillworking and they were built in the 50's
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Supaboat mentioned buying his foamboard from Hobbycraft for economy , that chain sells balsa from an American company so wont be cheap. All the types of construction you mention were probably out of necessity, gum paper etc, To encourage a beginner to build a model on the cheap in modern times I suggest using simple ready available materials. As Ballast says,ply off-cuts, builder`s scrap foam etc. Marionville Models in Edinburgh would be a good source of standard modelling supplies and radio gear, not too far from Bathgate. My first model boat was made from balsa from plans laboriously hand traced by by an adult who could afford the kit, a Veron Thames Police Launch. My first flying model was a Vic Smeed "Tomboy" from a plan purchased the month it was published in Aeromodeller Magazine so I have a reasonable knowledge of balsa. An ED Bee was used in both swopped between the each depending on weather. The Tomboy had floats and I`ve been flying waterplanes ever since, still using balsa. So how do we help someone on a limited budget and mobility to join us in model boating ?
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Marionville Models in Edinburgh would be a good source of standard modelling supplies and radio gear, not too far from Bathgate.
Unfortunately Marionville is no longer in Edinburgh. The younger generation have taken over and gone mostly mail order. They are now based in an industrial park in Livingstone, there is a retail section but seem to be mostly drones, cars and wargaming based. Their website has no mention of wood or boat fittings except for a few spares for artf boats.
Jim
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Auch naw >:-o >>:-( , aw weil. Sic transit gloria. You`ll be tellin` me next that balsa wid is fae sooth amerikay an no Solarboland.
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you could build a model using recycled materials, I pick up old wooden venetian blinds from boot fairs and use them to build plank on rib models.
http://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/image/B7nce
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Thanks for the input guys, sure are learning a lot and its great to find people who are so willing to help. I think you guys have convinced me to abandon the idea of using foamboard. I'd hate to see my electronics go to the bottom with a puff of smoke!!
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you could build a model using recycled materials, I pick up old wooden venetian blinds from boot fairs and use them to build plank on rib models.
http://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/image/B7nce (http://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/image/B7nce)
Have you ever found some of the very thin narrow flat 1/4" wide bamboo with a very realistic grain ? Terrific for vintage wheelhouses etc. The normal 1" 1/2" x1/8th" flat plane grainless wooden venetian blinds can sometimes have wax polish sprayed on them. Best remove paint as they might be ready to shed the paint that has been exposed to sunlight for ages. Nice wood though.
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Best remove paint as they might be ready to shed the paint that has been exposed to sunlight for ages. Nice wood though
I always run a sheet of sandpaper over them to remove this before I use them, they are all made from lime then stained to match the wood they are supposed to represent.
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Ok, I know you guys will have the answer to this one.
When choosing a servo to operate my rudder, what sort of torque do I need? At the moment I have a budget of £25 for this.
Also, what sort of motor should I use.I would prefer something that has the ability of torque as opposed to speed. Budget would be about £35-45.Thanks folks.
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Seeing as we have no idea what your design is, the answer I'm afraid is 'how long is a piece of string?'
You said before that it's going to be roughly 50cm long, but what is it going to be? Slow scale? Displacement hull? Fast planing hull? Tug?
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Hi Andyn, youre right, my amateureness is not giving you guys much to help me with.
I hope to build a boat that looks a bit like an oil tanker if thats any help. Displacement and all those other charactirestics I dont understand,so, I'm all ears.but please give it to me simple. Hope this helps,thanks again........supaboat.
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Supaboat,
I think it would be better if you were to do a bit of research and reading first before asking members to give their time assisting you.
'Boats' don't 'look' like like oil tankers, either they are are they aren't!
You would probably be better off starting with a kit as this will include the parts and also usually recommendations for powering the model which makes everything a lot easier.
If you want a cargo ship with engines aft configuration then have a look at the Model Slipway website which features several coaster designs:
http://www.modelslipway.com/ (http://www.modelslipway.com/)
They are pretty straightforward to build.
Also have a look at the Deans Marine website as they also have a variety of engines aft designs although you will need a bit more skill than for the Model Slipway models.
http://www.deansmarine.co.uk/shop/ (http://www.deansmarine.co.uk/shop/)
OK, you will have to shell out for the kit but it might be cheaper in the long run and a lot less frustrating. The motors, radio and running gear will cost the same whether you cobble together something of your own or go down the kit route and will probably cost as much as the kit does anyway.
Colin
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Thanks Colin, I'll check out the sites you have mentioned and see what else I can learn. I apologise for wasting anybody's time but just trying to figure it out. Thanks for your suggestions.....Supaboat
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Supaboat,
It's not so much about wasting people's time as giving them the information they need to give you helpful advice. We all want to encourage you in your efforts but it's better if things can be focussed a bit.
Colin
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Don't worry Supaboat, we're raring to help you.
If going for what sounds like a displacement hull (Tug, Merchant chip, Tanker, Support ship etc) rather than a speedy affair like a cabin cruiser or a fast electric boat, then the stresses put on the rudder and propeller are less so you do not need such powerful servos or motor.
The size you quote also helps with making it easier, and potentially cheaper to build. A Tanker/merchantmen model say six feet long will weigh up to seventy-100 pounds (?) and need a motor that can stop and start that with matching ESC, and a servo to keep the rudder in the path of the prop when turning.
So, you should be able to go for a lower amp ESC and smaller motor in the '200' range and a standard servo. You could run it on 6 volts. All this should save you money.
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And do not forget you have to get it into a vehicle easily
David
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The best advice for a Newbie is not to be too ambitious. Get something manageable under your belt and the world is your oyster. Too many people try to be too ambitious at first and this leads to disappointment.
Colin
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Thanks guys.Would a servo like this one do the job?
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/power-hd-lw-20mg-servo.html
I think I would prefer to bite the bullet right now and run on 12v so I can add lights etc as I become more knowledgeable in this field. Any suggestions out there? Thanks guys.
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I also meant to ask ballastanksian (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=14161)
what a 200 motor is? Thanks
Font enlarged.
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Sorry guys, whats a 200 motor?
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Brushed (classic can shaped) motors usually come in size/power classes from wee ones to monsters such as 800s or 900s down to little 100s. This page on Howes shows a range, but it is only one example of loads of different makes. Here: https://howesmodels.co.uk/product-category/radio-control/motors/brushed-motors/
For a cargo or working vessel of your proposed size, one in the 200s size would be good possibly up to a '300'. There people here who know shedloads more than me, but you hear motor sizes mentioned time and time again and you get the feel for what turns a sedate boat into a speed machine and vis versa! Check out the voltage range of the motor and get a battery with a voltage within that range. You can see that they are not that expensive even from the UK.
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Thanks for that. The link is very helpful. Back to the drawing board.At least I'M ENJOYING IT.
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Could you guys tell me if this transmitter and receiver are suitable and provide a certain amount of future proofing?
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-9x-9ch-transmitter-w-module-ia8-receiver-mode-1-afdhs-2a-system.html?___store=en_us
Thanks again...supaboat
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Yep that'd be suitable for small scale electric boats. In that price range though for definite future proofing I'd go for the new Jumper. It works on just about every 2.4ghz protocol, and runs on open source software so you'll be able to do way more with it. https://hobbyking.com/en_us/t8sg-v2-m2.html
That servo you linked is way overkill for a small cargo ship, it'd be fine with just a bog standard HS-311 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hitec-HS311-Servo/263738946632?epid=12009495751&hash=item3d6810f448:g:q9YAAOSw8mpbFqsg
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Looking at the specs for the Jumper, DSM2 and no mention of LBT protocol so not legal to use in europe. Unlikely to be CE passed.
Jim
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Just because it has dsm2 doesn't mean you need to use it... A quick google search shows it has LBT and an EU mode. Supposedly it's been sent for FCC and CE certification but not yet passed due to 'issues in testing'
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The fact that it is a new transmitter with DSM2 means that it is illegal in europe whether it is used or not.
Jim
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Supa Boat, go for a transmitter package you can afford that has no vices or concerns.
In all honesty, looking at their web site, Component shop would probably advise you on what you need regarding motor and servo (if not much else you need) if you Email them with a description of what you are after, I.e, 50cm model of a merchant ship with single shaft etc.
Their prices are good especially for the specifications you are after. https://www.componentshop.co.uk/
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Ok, I need to draw on your guys expertise on the following issues please;
I think Im going to buy the following transmitter and receiver from Hobbyking. I'm not sure which is more suitable,Mode 1 or Mode 2.
hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-9x-9ch-transmitter-w-module-ia8-receiver-mode-2-afdhs-2a-system.html
A member suggested I run a 6Vdc system wich I think is a good idea for a newbie such as myself. Could you guys please help me on the selection of the ESC,battery and motor. I dont get the importance of cell matching with the ESC unless I have completely misunderstood all this. Guys, thanks a lot for your advice.
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Mode 1 is ratcheting throttle on the right, mode 2 is on the left. 90% of people go for mode 2.
For a cargo ship, you'll be looking at a 6v sla, available from Component shop, suited in size and weight for your model, then a 400 motor and 20 amp esc. It wouldn't be worth going for a brushless setup in something like this
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Hi Andyn.What is a SLA? Also, what are the rules when matching ESC,battery and motor together? Are there any guidlines worth sticking to. I'm sure there must be. I was told that a ESC should always be rated 15 to 20% higher amps than your motor.Any truth to this?
Lastly, if you use a brushless motor must the ESC be specifically designed for brushless motors.
Absolutely finally, can you explain the sensor relationship between the ESC and MOTOR is please. Thanks a lot.
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Sealed lead acid, traditionally used in model boats for their high capacity and weight, eliminating the need for lead ballast.
An ESC's rating should be higher than that of the motor's highest draw yes. If you're going for a brushless motor then you'll need a brushless esc, though if you say you're building a cargo ship I'd still reccommend against it. You'd need a very low kv motor (rpm per volt) and possibly gearing to get fine low speed control.
Sensored brushless motors are available and cost a lot of money, and are largely unnecessary on model boats. Generally speaking they're used on rock crawlers.
I'd side with the 400 route with an ACTion esc. very simple for a begginner, very little to go wrong. Still, having not seen any boat designs, any advice giver should still be taken with a pinch of salt...
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Thanks a lot.Thats cleared up a few things for me so I can hopefully move onto the next stage. Thanks very much.
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Could somebody be kind enough to advise me on the best method on installing my iA8 Turnigy receiver please. I know it should be kept away from metal,motors etc but what about the aerials.How should they be positioned for best reception? Can they be inserted into a small plastic tube for protection against water for example? I also see the binding loop,attachment has a small pin like device on it, what is this for?
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Previous post text
would somebody be kind enough to advise me on the best method on installing my iA8 Turnigy receiver please. I know it should be kept away from metal, motors etc but what about the aerials. How should they be positioned for best reception? Can they be inserted into a small plastic tube for protection against water for example? I also see the binding loop,attachment has a small pin like device on it, what is this for?
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Thanks dougal99, seem to be having trouble posting.
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Hi Dougal
Don't worry too much about the position of the receiver as 2.4GHz Rx are not very sensitive to any probable electrical interference from motors etc. The bits that do need to be kept clear are the ends of the aerials. Try and keep them as high as possible to give them a clear view of the signal. Plastic tubes are perfect to put the aerials in as they do not block the radio signal. Try and keep the aerials at 90 degrees to each other, one vertical and the other horizontal is good. An alternative is both at 45 degrees to horizontal will give good reception with the Tx in any position. Try to position the transmitter aerial so it doesn't point at the boat as this gives the poorest signal.If you look at the receiver box it will have a small hole in the bottom or the side of the case. Under the hole is a small push switch which is used during the updating of the firmware in the receiver. The pin is to push this switch.
Jim
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Thanks JimG, that sorted it for me.Thanks very much for your time.
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Would it be OK to use American lime Basswood for the sides, bottom and decking. Is about 3mm thick correct or will this be difficult to bend? If I use 5mm for the ribs is this also ok? Just trying to think it all through. Thanks guys ......
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IMO 3mm is overkill for the deck, 1.5mm is all that's needed. 5mm for frames is OK. Are you planking on a round bilge or building a hard chine boat? 3mm planks will bend with some help (steaming) but it will be difficult to bend 3mm sheet. I would go with 1.5mm wood and either double up or use thin fibre glass cloth as a top coat. I have built a couple of boats using this latter method on planked hulls with no problems.
My Anglian Sovereign
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Great looking boat.Thanks for the advice. Once the planking has been laid and secured, does the wood need to be treated in any way before I apply the fibreglass cloth. Is there any grade of cloth that is best to use? Thanks again
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Obviously you need to sand the planking smooth and ensure any gaps are filled. (I do this by covering the outside of the hull in ordinary paper masking tape and forcing car body filler through any gaps from the inside. The tape cuts down the amount of remedial sanding required.) The glass cloth can then be applied direct to the hull with resin. I use cloth intended for model aircraft at 17-20 gms per square meter.
Good luck with your build.
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Thanks very much for the advice.
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Could somebody explain to me the purpose and importance of a "stuffing tube" for the propellor shaft. I would also like to know when using a "stuffing tube" how one prevents water entering into the boat hull? Thanks a lot....Supaboat
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Hi Supaboat,
Stuffing tubes are primarily used to prevent water ingress and also to hold the prop shaft in line. Some better quality ones have ball bearings while others just have brass or plastic bearings that also form the ends of the stuffing tube. The tube can then be filled with grease, light oil, silicone grease or a blend of lubricants that help to reduce water ingress and help prolong the life of the bearings. Many model boatists add oiling tubes to their stuffing tubes (Worth searching for in the archives via the search bar above) so they can top up lubricants, but it depends on how much use the model will get.
They can be bought in various diameters and lengths to suit the size and power of the model. Look for them at various sites such as Cornwall Model boats, Deans Marine, etc.
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Thanks very much.So if I have a 5mm prop shaft it would go inside the stuffing tube with grease and then rotate on the bearings in the stuffing tube.Do I understand it correctly?
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I realise this is a 15cc FSR-V race boat, not a small cargo ship but this should illustrate it well %)
In the first image, from left to right we have the prop, then a skeg which supports the end of the shaft. Not all propshafts have a skeg, but I'm dealing with 8 horsepower so it's needed. inside the skeg on the prop end is a bushing to support the end of the shaft. At the other end is the end of the shaft outer tube, the stainless steel part. The shaft outer is supported in the skeg by some brass, and in this boat goes through the hull through a brass tube which it's not glued to, so the outer is removable without ripping a hole in the hull, as none of the assembly in this boat is glued in, other than the brass tube through the hull.
In the second image, you can just make out the brass bearing block under the manifold where the other end of the shaft is. This bearing housing contains a shaft retainer and two bearings, coming off the top of this is an oil feed, which at the top right corner you can see the oil cup for.
This is far above what you'd need in a cargo ship, but essentially the same. You have a main shaft with a bushing at each end, and ideally some form of shaft oiler.
(http://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2018/07/30/20180730_121905.jpg)
(http://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2018/07/30/20180730_122001.jpg)
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Have a look on The bang good site Plenty of Transmitters and Receivers a t great prices. Loads of other models and modelling stuff :-)) O0
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A great help in bending wood is household ammonia. The harder woods like pine ,obeche, cyprus, lime need a little soaking time but balsa just brush it on. Try a solution first but if not enough use straight from the bottle. Works like magic.
Good luck. :-))
P.S. Health & Safety. :police: [size=78%] Wear goggles and use outdoors or stink the house out[/size] :P
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Have a look on The bang good site Plenty of Transmitters and Receivers a t great prices. Loads of other models and modelling stuff :-)) O0
Receivers are not a problem as long as they use the same coding as the transmitter.
Transmitters are more difficult. Every 2.4ghz transmitter has to carry a CE sticker saying that they have been tested & approved in the EU. It is against the law to use a transmitter that is not carrying the sticker. I somehow doubt that many Banggood transmitters have been officially tested in the EU. Note that the USA has a different legal spec to the EU and the USA is a much bigger market for Banggood etc..
I guess that Hobbyking transmitters sold out of an EU warehouse comply but I do not know for sure.
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Oh yes and use gloves too O0 ?
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Oh yes and use gloves too O0 ?
There are very good reasons for the power limit imposed by the EU. To ignore it is illegal, irresponsible, and could possibly cause a serious accident if your transmitter swamped a legal one.
I hope that this forum would not encourage you to go there.
PS If you are using an illegal transmitter you can forget any insurance cover.
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I guess that Hobbyking transmitters sold out of an EU warehouse comply but I do not know for sure.
I would not always rely on the equipment sold by Hobbyking complying with the regulations. They are facing a large fine in the US for selling transmitters especially 5.8GHz FPV ones which did not comply with US rules.The Eu has other rules apart from power output that need to be followed, especially with the format of the radio transmissions. Transmitters must use LBT (listen before transmit) protocols so Spectrum DSM and DSM2 and Futaba Fasst transmitters can be no longer sold legally.
Jim
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Thanks guys, the info on the stuffing tube clears a lot up. Thanks very much for the photos as well.
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supaboat, why dont you go to edinburgh or glasgow richmond boat club. im sure both will give you sound advice, and to be honest, viewing what you are asking would be more beneficial to you as you can seee al the bits in operation and ask many questions that lead on to that
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Hi Klunk, I will do that but do have various restrictions with movement at the moment so I'm trying to do as much online research as possible for the time being. I would enjoy visiting a boat club greatly.
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Jim G Does that apply to all DSMx/DSm2 Txs P.S. I think BG now have a UK or EU warehouse so the kit probably will comply with the directives now. We could ask them. They seem ethical/honourable.
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You cannot buy them, but if you have one,
you can use them.
If you send a Tx for repair that was DSM2/DSMX, it
will come back with the DSM2 disabled.
Ned
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In that case can The Rxs for DSM2 be converted?
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I doubt if a DSM2 Rx can be converted to DSMX. Most receivers are not able to be updated with new firmware.
Jim
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Hi Folks, I have decided to heed the advise given to me by you guys and start off with a simple kit instead of trying to reinvent the wheel as one member wisely advised me.
I've bought a small kit from Cornwall Models. Its a Aeronaut Mowe 2 which appears to be within my capabilities at the moment. So thanks to every one who helped me to this stage. Unfortunately I am expecting a short term of lodging at our local hospital so this will delay me somewhat. I dont think they will tolerate balsa wood dust flying around the ward so I'll have to wait a bit before the build begins!!! :(( :(( Thanks again guys and no doubt will need your help in the not to distant future.
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Good choice of kit, you will learn the basics with that one. Good luck with your little holiday, hope you come out raring to use the scalpels you may have scrounged from those awfully nice people in the B&B :-)) . A Springer next ? O0
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Thanks Arrow5, the scalpel suggestion is a good one and I'll put in a request. Cheers
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Could any member offer me advice on charging this battery for the first time,
[/size]Turnigy Heavy Duty 3300mAh 3S 60C Lipo Pack w/XT-90
[/size]
[/size]https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-heavy-duty-3300mah-3s-60c-lipo-pack-xt-90.html
[/font]
[/size]
I have this battery charger [/size]Turnigy P606 LiPoly/LiFe AC/DC Charger (UK Plug)
[/size]https://hobbyking.com/en_us/pd606-charger-uk-plug.html
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I hope that I'm wrong but having closely followed this thread, I'm wondering if Supaboat really is as naive as he makes out? No offence intended, just my thoughts.
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Hi shadysadie, not offended at all.Take it as a compliment actually. Its just that I've heard that these batteries can blow up while on charge and am wondering if there are ways to avoid this. The other thing I am keen to know is if you need to charge such a battery for a longer period for the first time. Like you do with a new mobile phone etc etc. No deception tactics here....I promise.
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Shady has a point. i would give the lipos a miss for a wee while.
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https://www.quora.com/Are-NiMh-batteries-less-dangerous-than-Li-ion-batteries
when NIMHs came out there was the exact same argument!
Although NIMHs do not explode the do catch fire, and are pretty voracious.
It all comes down to safety and the proceedures YOU take. no different to charging the old nicad or nimhs. Most lipo fires are caused by people not payoing attention to the state of the battery to start with, or simply fast charging then walking away to let it do its thing. I personally never leave any batteries on charge when im not at home, they are also in a seperate room with a smoke detector and in a metal box. Although this is not recommended, lipos will burn in a sealed box as they generate their own oxygen when burning. (may have got that wrong!!)
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Thanks again guys.