Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Model Boating => Topic started by: Plastic - RIP on January 17, 2019, 06:57:04 am
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Hi
As you can guess from my name, most of my boats are converted plastic kits - so the kit quality I'm used to is normally very high as they invest a lot of money getting right.
I've not built too many traditional traditional fibreglass-hulled models from the well known manufacturers.
I started another 1/96 destroyer a couple of days ago (I won't mention make & model). Everything above the deck is plasticard construction - cut out & glue together.
It's rubbish.
NOTHING fits. It's a joke. Nothing can be trusted - nothing lines up, parts are grossly undersized or grossly oversized. I'm having to remake most of the parts from left-over plasticard. There's errors everywhere, some parts are accidentally partially mirrored, walls are of different heights, some parts are occupying the same space or just completely wrong.
Sub-assemblies that are supposed to mate with others are different sizes. It's like the model has been up-issued many times and the box contents are a random selection of versions.
I'm having to duplicate so many parts I could build two models if I had another hull.
Is this normal? Is this all just part & parcel of modern modelling? Do we just accept this and carry on?
It's annoying because instead of confidently building a great kit, I'm looking at how to cover up the many designed-in errors.
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Welcome to the world of model boats. Some are better than others but if you want everything perfect you will end up doing an awful lot of fettling.
Good luck. Pete
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Oh - so this is normal. :o(
It's frustrating that the instructions contradict themselves too. I'm having to scour the internet for source material - original pictures and photos of other people's models to see how they dealt with the cock-ups. It's clear in many that they didn't - lots of wonky models out there.
I suppose this is the stage where many would dump it on ebay as too much trouble.
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Every kit model will have problems. But without making the company aware of any problems they will not be able rectify them. I have some very large injection moulded plastic kits and like you say they cost a lot of money but they come with their own problems. Most kit builders will during construction change modify or remake something. Moving from plastic models to basically flat pack modelling is a bit of a shock but hang in there and things will be fine.
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This is not my first model like this. :(
Most of my models have been wrecks from ebay, so without plans, I've had to be creative and invent most of what's missing.
I'm not sure the independent model suppliers have the resources to completely re-engineer an existing model as it doesn't really add much value for them. Their time is better spent developing new models.
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It isn't normal for all kits, except maybe those from that particular manufacturer (no names, no pack drill...and no libel case!). If you're looking at buying a specific kit then it's worth the time to post on here or another model boat forum to see if anyone has any experince of the kit and can offer an opinion as to its quality. I can guarantee that certain manufacturers are noted for producing very good kits consistently e.g Model Slipway, while others (like this one) are noted for the opposite reason.
DaveM
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It isn't normal for all kits, except maybe those from that particular manufacturer (no names, no pack drill...and no libel case!)……………..
DaveM
& no case if what is said is true (not that I know which manufacturer we are discussing).
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I got this kit really, really cheap so it's more annoying rather than financially heart breaking.
The problem is these models crop up with no notice so research isn't possible - you just have to jump in with both feet..
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What you describe is not 'normal' but neither is it entirely unknown either. In fact I think certain manufacturers are actually encouraging scratch building... %)
A conventional plastic kit manufacturer expects to have a production run of many thousands and will invest heavily in injection moulding to achieve it although they do often get detail wrong.
A model boat kit will have a much, much lower production run from a much smaller manufacturer. It's quite possible that only 5 of your particular kit might be sold in a year depending on its popularity. So yes, it isn't possible to put the level of development into these kits that the plastic kit manufacturer does. And then of course there is much more building input required of the purchaser of a model boat kit. Having said that, there is no excuse for poor quality control and failure to remedy faults that occur during the kit development process. The kit you have could have been so much better had just a bit more attention been given to bring it to market. A lot of the problems could have been very easily corrected.
Certainly not all kits are like that, not even from that particular manufacturer. At the other end of the spectrum, last year I built the SLEC kit of the Fairey Huntsman 31 which was designed by Dave Milbourn for a Model Boats magazine review. I can honestly say that there was virtually nothing whatsoever to criticise about it. The only nit picking I could muster up was a recommendation to silver solder the pulpit railing which I thought might be a bit beyond the average builder (Dave and I have amicably agreed to differ on this) and truly minor points such as making the anchor from sheet wood when maybe plasticard might have been easier to get a metallic looking finish on. It really was scratching around as the kit components fitted together beautifully and the instructions were exemplary, everything you need to know is in there as long as you read them including recommendations for running gear, motor and batteries etc. And following the recommendations for powering the model gave a really exciting experience.
The kit is tried and tested in that after designing it, Dave actually built examples to satisfy himself that everything in the production kit fitted together as intended (as do most manufacturers) which I'm afraid wasn't the case with your model where only a pre production version was probably made - hence the difficulties you are experiencing.
Colin
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Well I've been very busy today - going my own way and using plans for guidance, I've built all the deck houses to a point where the next step is gluing a bunch of fittings on before painting. I've used what's available but cut them to my dimensions rather than follow the printed outline.
On one deck house, the printed difference between L & R is 3mm. Hopeless.
I want this model bashed out in the next couple of weeks.
I won't upload photos because that would identify the manufacturer.
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We all know who it is!
Colin
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Hi plastic I assume the kit was second hand what state was in when you bought it? From my experience over the years all kit models will have good points and bad points. I am sure every model builder at some time will have felt putting the kit build in the bin.
Stan.
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this kit was brand new in the box - full & complete, untouched.
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Plastic, I believe you 100%!
Colin
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Plastic, I believe you 100%!
Colin
I don't understand?
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You say you have assembly problems - I agree!
Colin
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Why not name and shame?
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Why not name and shame?
Because it isn’t fair to the manufacturer to be judged on an old kit- I know who it is- it’s the same as you judging Airfix on their first model kits from the 1950s to a modern kit. If I guess right on the kit it’s close to 30 years old whilst their modern kits are laser cut and fit quite nicely together without too much bother.
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Why not name and shame?
I don't have enough experience of other manufacturers to be able to compare like-for-like so it would be unfair to demonise one manufacturer if they are all of similar quality.
I'm just surprised that these days with cad systems costing nothing, that the basics are not more accurate - after all, it's just flat plasticard so I would expect it to be mm accurate.
I'm not sure how old this particular kit is - but it's still available new.
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I accept that some of these kits are quite old but I also think that much could be put right with a minimum of effort if the manufacturer wanted to. If not then maybe the kit should be withdrawn from sale,
Colin
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Time to lock this thread we could go on and on about kit quality and traders. Please don't think that will buy a kit and have no problems all kits have problems this includes plastic models I my model shop last year a ready to run model with a peeling deck cost £900 plus.
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Not sure if it is necessary to lock the thread.
There are manufacturers who produce very acceptable models so it is perfectly possible.
Those that have shortcomings need to up their game. No need to accept poor quality. Improvements can usually be made without very much effort if the will is there. If there is very little demand for the product then drop it rather then leave it to damage quality reputation.
Colin
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Not fair? If the manufacturer can't be bothered to fix long standing problems they should stop selling the stuff. There's a 100 pennies in every pound they receive so we are keeping our side of the bargain.
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This sounds like a candidate for the lemon department. As long as it is made clear that the model is from a bygone age who cares.
Would you compare a Skoda Estelle with Skoda Octavia?
It has always been up to the modeller to set the quality and detail level.
If the picture on the box does not corespond with the model you may have cause for complaint, but you could say the same for a burger from Maccy dee's.
Think of it as a challenge, "gard" knows I've got plenty of them, usually buying somebody else's cock up at the rate of two a year.
Remember draw deep breaths, meditate for 15 minutes before starting work and think positive.
And one day this ugly ducking of yours will turn into a swan, becoming the "ship of dreams"
And we all know how that turned out.
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Hi all some years ago I was given a Polish all wood model boat kit, it is a little frustrating and the translated instructions are meaningless but some of it is nice, mainly laser cut. The company does not sell these kits anymore although they occasionally appear on ebay. It included a nice plastic fittings kit but the scale is a little out. Curiously there was no evidence that a deck was supplied with the kit.
A couple of years ago I had the chance to buy an American merchant ship kit. On inspection of the contents I decided that after all those years of looking out for one it was not for me, so I declined the very generous offer, I would even have turned it down as a gift!
Regards Roy
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Having converted several plastic kits to RC as well as scratch building others, commercial kits for RC are not my speciality apart from having a partworks HMS Hood to get around to building eventually but even that one I bought largely with at least half an eye ono taking copies of the fittings to use on other scratch built models.
Increasingly I am getting one of the relatively cheap 1/200th card models of WW2 warships and scratch building the hull from balsa and ply with the card kit providing the dimensions and bulkhead sections ( I find this particularly satisfying in itself) then using the card superstructure parts as templates for plasticard versions, or even the card pieces themselves if saving weight is critical and structural strength is not important. Fittings are then either from my partworks stockpile, 3D printed alternatives, photoetch versions available to supplement the card kit or as a last resort scratch built. That way, I can keep costs down and build models that are unlikely to ever appear as an injected plastic version and still cheaper than the commercial kits.
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Increasingly I am getting one of the relatively cheap 1/200th card models of WW2 warships and scratch building the hull from balsa and ply with the card kit providing the dimensions and bulkhead sections ( I find this particularly satisfying in itself) then using the card superstructure parts as templates for plasticard versions, or even the card pieces themselves if saving weight is critical and structural strength is not important. Fittings are then either from my partworks stockpile, 3D printed alternatives, photoetch versions available to supplement the card kit or as a last resort scratch built. That way, I can keep costs down and build models that are unlikely to ever appear as an injected plastic version and still cheaper than the commercial kits.
I do this - I use 3mm foam board - I built a 1/200 Titanic from it. It's really cheap - £20 for 8'x4' sheet.
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Not sure if it is necessary to lock the thread.
There are manufacturers who produce very acceptable models so it is perfectly possible.
All amicable, sensible, productive and anonymous at the moment... so as long as we we keep it that way. :-)) :police:
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Some kits do have some problems but this does give a higher sense of satisfaction when built.
Not only to you but other modellers know of the problems overcome.
It will be worth it in the end.
Bob
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To be honest Bob I get more satisfaction when bits fit together the way they ought to. When they don't I find it irritating and frustrating and I start using naughty words.
I keep the challenges for scratchbuilding. When it goes wrong then I can only blame myself!
Colin
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That very true Bob, one of the most difficult kits I built was the Robbie S130..... but also one of the most satisfying!
https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/Builds/S130/1ndex.htm
( Worst kit was definitely the ..... Moderated! <*< )
Martin ok2
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That very true Bob, one of the most difficult kits I built was the Robbie S130..... but also one of the most satisfying!
https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/Builds/S130/1ndex.htm (https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/Builds/S130/1ndex.htm)
Martin ok2
I had one of those - the deck was all over the place and it was supposed to meet the hull at the bow - fat chance!
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So, Martin and Bob, you are saying that a badly designed and implemented kit is more satisfying to build than a well designed one that does what it says on the box? And is presumably therefore better value?
Am I missing something here?
Colin
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Badly designed or implemented kits, that still result in poor products, despite all your efforts are still crap! >:-o
..... but the converse is true of excellent kits I couldn't do justice to! :embarrassed:
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I don't understand secrecy in naming suppliers sometimes. But I appreciate some forums take a different approach. It's like some folk feel they have to state "no affiliation, bla, bla" etc. if they provide a supplier weblink, or feel they cannot post a link to another source.
I have a Sangsetia which I built from Metcalf's hull and styrene pack which went together very well. I also then had a hull and set of superstructure mouldings for the Sea Trojan -that hull was not so well made at all, If I recall, the superstructure mouldings were so poorly laid up and bent out of shape I just had to send them back.
I started a Blue Devil destroyer kit a few years ago -everything was pretty badly distorted. But it's such an old set of moulds it's widely publicised things don't fit so well. So not every plastic kit conversion works. On the other hand I'm 99% through a Merit 1:48 PT boat conversion and the only thing I did differently so far apart from omitting some fine detail was cut my own deck from polystyrene sheet because it saved a bit of weight.
I gave up on N gauge railways a few years ago partly because I got fed up with the quality of supplied parts vs 50-100% increase in price over 12 months. You apparently have to accept to fix a £100+ locomotive straight out of the box. I tried a few small kits and had to replace up to 90% of the parts and was told that was normal and should I should be thankful regardless.
I think it's a very subjective discussion how folk think that a "kit" should go together, but it should obviously go together with reasonable ease. I am also a bit disappointed with a boat "kit" I bought recently but I never expected it to be 100% right. It's from a re-mould of something very old but I'm frustrated it doesn't really match what was in the advert pics (I have also never seen so many surface defects in a set of polystyrene mouldings before). Some parts that were supplied are different from advertised and some other parts not really usable. Also, photocopy on photocopy of instructions renders information totally unusable -so it's better not to put out unreadable c**p in the first place. I hope to make a build blog at the end because it's still a good very good base-kit and I want to promote it -but it's not really sold as-advertised at the moment.
If it's 1:96 I'm guessing what supplier it is. I guess it's down to the extent of what was advertised and how it should go together though. I would be equally miffed if most things were way-out. Also, without knowing what kit it is there's mention from others about doing homework first -but how would you know if for example you saw a post like this and didn't know what kit it related to? It seems a bit of a catch 22 situation.
Cheers,
Richard
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There is a difference between accuracy and quality.
Many kits are obliged to compromise on precise accuracy in order to make them commercially viable. This usually entails a degree of simplification which does not noticebly detract from the appearance of the finished model. For example the Caldercraft Cumbrae pilot vessel is actually a bit wider than it should be to make for a more stable model but hardly anyone would notice the difference. Likewise, the SLEC Huntsnan kit I recently built does not feature the sheer of the hull in order to make construction easier and it has a single screw rather than the twin of the original vessel. The manufacturer is upfront about this and the finished model still gives an excellent representation of the original. I have no problems with this. You might want to take the opportunity to enhance the model by correcting some of the inaccuracies but that is your choice.
However if you have a kit where you assemble a deckhouse and it doesn't fit over the corresponding hole in the deck leaving gaps at the sides then this is a quality issue. Likewise, if the white metal fittings are amorphous blobs rather than crisp details then the manufacturer has probably not refreshed the casting moulds.
It's all a bit of a moving feast in some respects but it is usually easy to establish what is OK and what isn't.
Colin
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No Colin,
But most on here know the good and the bad and do appreciate the work needed to get it to a decent standard.
All kits should be of a decent standard but we all know this is not the case.
Bob
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Bob,
The problem is that we don't all know! There are a lot of people on here who do not have the experience and insight that you and I do and have to go by what is published by the manufacturers. They do not deserve to be disappointed as they so often are.
Colin
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Just to clarify: "decent standard" in a kit means parts should fit with minimal efort and match a rough assembly plan (parts may need cleaning -up, straightening flash, removal on cast parts etc.)? It does not necessarily mean the kit is accurate to the original vessel?
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"you should do your research into any kit prior to purchase"
How? Go to the factory and open the box? If I give good money I expect to get what I paid for. If I buy a car and it does not go I have some comeback. If I buy the Billings African Queen and find that there is no front view of the steam engine on the drawings I just have to guess where the pipes go. Some members of this forum have decades of experience and know which kit makers to avoid. The rest of us have to learn the hard way. So without repeating my suggestion that the OP should name names can more experienced members tell us which suppliers offer good kits with intelligible instructions. If we can't out the baddies let's praise the goodies.
Fonts fixed - Admin
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"you should do your research into any kit prior to purchase."
How? Go to the supplier and open the box? If we are too shy to name the baddies can we at least publish the names of the people who supply good kits? Some of us are fairly new to all this and don't want to buy lemons. I bought and built the Billings African Queen. Mostly good but a very thin hull moulding and no front view of the steam engine so I had to guess where the pipes went. I think by "research" Steam Boat Willie meant know somebody who knows.
Fonts fixed - Admin
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"you should do your research into any kit prior to purchase"
How? Go to the factory and open the box? If I give good money I expect to get what I paid for. If I buy a car and it does not go I have some comeback. If I buy the Billings African Queen and find that there is no front view of the steam engine on the drawings I just have to guess where the pipes go. Some members of this forum have decades of experience and know which kit makers to avoid. The rest of us have to learn the hard way. So without repeating my suggestion that the OP should name names can more experienced members tell us which suppliers offer good kits with intelligible instructions. If we can't out the baddies let's praise the goodies.
...hopefully that helps as a cut and paste job from Richard Beattie?
Rich
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Hi, I think that is where kit reviews come into their own, be it in a magazine or possibly on You Tube. Model Boats is quite good as was the late Int Marine Modelling. Deficiencies in the kit can be mentioned without the manufacturer removing his advertising.
But I watched in horror a You Tube build of a Dumas Towboat where the builder just picked up a partly shaped piece of balsa and started painting it.
One of the problems is that you might ask if a certain kit is up to standard but how do you judge the answers? There are rivet counters, modellers who like to get things right and as I have seen blind building of the kit. It is nice when a kit is improved and the detailing explained.
I think I would put most of my trust in the experiences of those on this forum.
regards
Roy
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One of the problems is that you might ask if a certain kit is up to standard but how do you judge the answers? There are rivet counters, modellers who like to get things right and as I have seen blind building of the kit. It is nice when a kit is improved and the detailing explained.
....That to me is easy. It should fit together with a reasonable set of instructions (relative to the skillset it is aimed at) and it should contain the parts to complete. It should be representative at the end of the day as the sales brochure, and list any exlusions etc. If part A should fit with Part B, it should do so with minimal effort. If it is not a scale representative of the real ting -then that (unless it's supposed to be) is a separate issue!!!!
I think the OP must be wondering what a can of worms he's opened here. Should have named from the outset where some more positive help would probably have prevailed with his kit, I'm still wondering what kit that was -but will supect all from the range I think of now.
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Be careful, as definitions of a decent kit are subjective.
My first plastic kits were Revell, I think they were decent enough even if the pilot was molded into the fuselage halves. Then when I go more pocket money I moved up to Airfix with the occasional Revell, which was a big improvement. As a teenager with a Saturday job I moved up to the occasional Tamiya and was really impressed. If I had a rich Dad and had started with Tamiya, I would have a low impression of Airfix and be infuriated by Revell.
I think it is also possible to come from a plastic kit background and be underwhelmed by model boats. I have also read complaints on American forums about the quality and instructions in British kits generally. A lot of it is about expectations, some reasonable some not, and levels of annoyance from a scale of mildly annoyed to abject rage can be seen on forums. Some people want to punish a supplier publicly, and some want to stir the pot or take a morbid delight (schadenfreude) in the ensuing melee. All subjective, and rarely helpful.
Reference 'naming and shaming', it seems to bring out the worst of internet behaviors. What this has led to in the past on ModelBoatMayhem is open hostility and flame wars, resulting in bans. I think I can speak for Martin and other Moderators when I say, 'We don't want that on this forum'. We would rather it was a happy ship.
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I've done lots of plastic conversions - 3 Blue Devils, 3 Flower Corvettes, 2 Lindberg PT109, a Titanic, a Heller Avenir, a few 1/350 battleships and a bunch of others. I consider all of them to be nice models - especially when you think about how old the moulds are.
I'm disappointed with the models where everything is variable - vacforms with no clear edge so where do you cut? The dimensions will then impact other parts and cause issues further down the line when all the cumulative errors mean the larger sub-assemblies are miles out - and when you look to the plan for guidance, it's slightly different to what's in your hand so no help at all.
All very frustrating.
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Apologies for my repetitive posts above - I made three attempts to post and they all seemed to disappear but the moderator managed to find them! Baffled.
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Apologies for my repetitive posts above - I made three attempts to post and they all seemed to disappear but the moderator managed to find them! Baffled.
Sometimes if you go back to modify a post, when you save the font goes to minimum. You can just about make out a feint grey line. If you go back to edit again, highlight the text and change the font size to 10, all appears normal again.
It is just an annoying little glitch in the software. Sorry for the inconvenience.