Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: SailorGreg on May 10, 2021, 01:05:20 pm
Title: That darned apostrophe
Post by: SailorGreg on May 10, 2021, 01:05:20 pm
If you don't want to read about the (mis)use of the apostrophe, please pass quickly on to something more boat-related. . . . . . . Still here? OK, here goes! I seem to have come across a multitude of "it's" when people really mean "its". It's quite simple - "it's" is short for "it is". The apostrophe is not used to indicate possession. For that, use "its". Thus -
"It's a shame the boat broke its moorings" is correct.
If in doubt, expand its/it's to "it is" and see if the sentence makes sense -
"It is a shame the boat broke it is moorings" obviously needs the second instance to stay with "its" but NO apostrophe.
Simple isn't it? So why do so many get it wrong so often. Aaaargh! >>:-( >>:-( >>:-(
Thank you. Rant over.
Greg
Title: Re: That darned apostrophe
Post by: Tug Fanatic on May 10, 2021, 02:17:03 pm
Yes it is simple but so are the other common causes of grammatical catastrophe.
They're, their, there. Affect, effect. Me & I. i.e. or e.g. You or you're. Overrated or underrated. To or too. Plus many others.
With text message English now being widely used by the poorly educated I wonder how long the idea of sentences will survive. Thinking about it for a little longer I also wonder for how long the ability to write readable and coherent English, by hand and without a keyboard, will be regarded as vitally important.
Unfortunately the educated do not own the language.
Title: Re: That darned apostrophe
Post by: chas on May 10, 2021, 03:20:30 pm
:} :embarrassed: . I bet most readers on here, ( not hear) have a personal gripe. With me it's advise and advice, how often have I read a post asking for some advise. Yuk. Usually I let it wash over me, people in glass houses etc etc. predictive text can catch all of us out. I had a big smile when a chap moaned about the educational standards of youngsters these days, his spelling was awful. Chas
Title: Re: That darned apostrophe
Post by: kinmel on May 10, 2021, 04:09:02 pm
The apostrophe is not used to indicate possession. For that, use "its". Thus -
Simple isn't it? So why do so many get it wrong so often. Aaaargh! >>:-( >>:-( >>:-(
Indeed, why do you get it wrong ?
A possessive of a single noun does have 's e.g. John's book. (unless it ends in "s") http://www.sussex.ac.uk/informatics/punctuation/apostrophe/possessives
Title: Re: That darned apostrophe
Post by: SailorGreg on May 10, 2021, 04:27:46 pm
My point was specific to "its" and "it's". I reckon everyone knows the general use of the possessive 's and I guess that is why "it's" is misused so much.
Greg
Title: Re: That darned apostrophe
Post by: malcolmfrary on May 10, 2021, 04:31:03 pm
We mustn't loose our tempers over this, though, should we? Or should we?
Title: Re: That darned apostrophe
Post by: Leaky Bottom on May 10, 2021, 05:23:16 pm
"It's a shame the boat broke its moorings"
Boats are regarded as female so shouldn't it read " It's a shame the boat broke her moorings" :police:
Title: Re: That darned apostrophe
Post by: derekwarner on May 11, 2021, 02:28:53 am
Courtesy of an On-Line Q&A on the subject ...
Looking at the Russian names for the four ship classes in WoWS, you might notice that all four are grammatically masculine...
Эсминец :-) Крейсер :o Линкор ;D Авианосец {:-{
This primarily is where the idea that Russian ships are "male" comes from. {-)
...[rather obvious I thought or was it odbvious ?] ......Derek
Title: Re: That darned apostrophe
Post by: roycv on May 11, 2021, 08:53:19 am
Hi I agree with the general points made. If members did a quick preview of their post they can also see how it reads. A great block of text is quite daunting to read. Many will only read part of what is posted, the preview hopefully lets you compare your post with a page from a book which will have come nicely spaced and easy to read.
There is another aspect and that is hitting an adjacent letter key and clearly the person does not read back to themselves what they have written otherwise they would correct it. However the overriding factor is that our hobby does involve some manual dexterity a sense of scale and colour and so the modeller could be coming from a different direction academically. As this is additional contribution, it's something we might well miss if it is not there.
In the past I have reviewed model kits for the other, now defunct magazine and the editor said to me that I was not the best model maker but I was someone who could write about it. We have the same thing in our model engineering society some great modellers but fewer able to stand up and talk about it. I am in charge of evening subjects and find ways around this problem.
There is an unfortunate corollary to this as many submitting C.V's will have their career dismissed as they have not been able to get past the clerical barrier. When I used to interview student graduates for a work placement I asked them what they did in their summer holidays, a much more enlightening source of information regarding character etc.
Nobody expects to get the perhaps hard typed post returned with a mark out of 10 with the errors highlighted, so I read and withhold judgement.
Regards E & O.E. Roy
Title: Re: That darned apostrophe
Post by: malcolmfrary on May 11, 2021, 09:04:01 am
Looking at the Russian names for the four ship classes in WoWS, you might notice that all four are grammatically masculine...
Эсминец :-) Крейсер :o Линкор ;D Авианосец {:-{
This primarily is where the idea that Russian ships are "male" comes from. {-)
...[rather obvious I thought or was it odbvious ?] ......Derek
English speaking countries generally refer to ships as "she", whatever the name. Other countries have their own ideas on the subject. German warships were invariably "he". Russia could follow the same convention.
Title: Re: That darned apostrophe
Post by: jaymac on May 11, 2021, 10:04:48 am
Wait till the Woke Brigade get involved they will all be just it.
Title: Re: That darned apostrophe
Post by: ChrisF on May 11, 2021, 10:23:00 am
The gender depends on the width of the transom I suppose!
Malcolm - did you read your last but one post back?
To some extent it depends on what job you do or did. If it involves or involved quite a bit of writing you are more likely to get things correct. Now I'm retired I sometimes have to think twice about spelling or grammar (another tricky one!) given the complexities of the English language which requires good memory given the many exceptions to rules!
A guy on a photographic forum I use has the common errors in his signature! Brave chap as I guess most visitors will forensically read his posts!
Chris
Title: Re: That darned apostrophe
Post by: Jonty on May 11, 2021, 11:27:17 am
And spare a thought for the foreigner trying to get to grips with English spelling. There are eight (that I can think of offhand) ways of pronouncing the letter group -ough-. On the other hand, though, that's a bit rough.
Title: Re: That darned apostrophe
Post by: radiojoe on May 11, 2021, 02:47:40 pm
I must confess I am guilty of apostrophe misuse mainly with it is or its, I put it down to habit, I must try harder <*< {:-{ {:-{
Joe.
Title: Re: That darned apostrophe
Post by: Mike S on May 11, 2021, 07:11:10 pm
Greg,
They say that there is no such thing as co-incidence, but, having just read your post . . . .
In the Times yesterday, (Monday 10th May), there was an obituary of a gentleman called John Richards, who has just passed away at the grand old age of 97, whose claim to fame was that he was the founder of the Apostrophe Protection Society. Following a career in local newspapers he founded the Society in 2001 with the stated aim of 'highlighting the misuse of this most misunderstood of punctuation marks'. He attracted worldwide interest, and received a literature award from Harvard University.
He wound up the Society two years ago, citing advancing years, and stating 'the apostrophe is dying'. A glorious British eccentric, and a life well-lived.
Mike
Title: Re: That darned apostrophe
Post by: jaymac on May 11, 2021, 07:14:43 pm
was he in a Coma when he snuffed it
Title: Re: That darned apostrophe
Post by: Taranis on May 11, 2021, 08:19:38 pm
DaveM RIP would much appreciate this thread O0
Title: Re: That darned apostrophe
Post by: mrlownotes on May 11, 2021, 09:02:15 pm
Hmmmmm.........English can be weird..........spelling etc.........but it can be understood through tough thorough thought though !
Title: Re: That darned apostrophe
Post by: SteamboatPhil on May 11, 2021, 09:35:31 pm
Which witch is which.....my favourite.....
Typo's are very easy I have just re written the MPBA steam rules and after the 3 rd proof reading all was well.....but thought hum let the daughter just check as well ( she spent her teens year being bored by Dad telling her about steam) turns out I had put a test pressure down as 4000 psi (one nought too many) well that could have been interesting............... Pa... me and my big fingers.... good for 8 BA it appears but not for typing.... :embarrassed:
Title: Re: That darned apostrophe
Post by: Martin (Admin) on May 11, 2021, 09:41:09 pm
Title: Re: That darned apostrophe
Post by: malcolmfrary on May 12, 2021, 09:04:11 am
Malcolm - did you read your last but one post back?
Chris
Certainly did. Glad to know that somebody else read it.
The point is well made in other posts that you should never ever proof read your own work. Read your postings by all means, but when a piece is your own creation, your brain will insert its own auto correction. Thankfully the spell check highlights my Toshiba keyboard induced errors. Mostly.
Title: Re: That darned apostrophe
Post by: roycv on May 12, 2021, 09:50:04 am
Hi I read eats shoots and leaves when it came out v.g. I have done some proof reading for a friend with a little bit of editing, for articles written for a magazine. I used to see a copy each month and I was pleased to see they were printed as sent to the mag. Most times I do a pre-view before a longish post and the re-arrangement of text shows up a lot of errors but not all. It does benefit from knowing where to insert gaps in the text paragraphs etc. I suppose it comes down to how much time you have? I have just received an email from a company with so many errors, that it is difficult to know what their intentions are. Regards Roy
Title: Re: That darned apostrophe
Post by: rickles23 on May 12, 2021, 10:03:29 am
Hi,
The problem with a lot of spell checkers is that they see only if the word itself is correct but ignore the grammer side of that word in a sentence. In connection with boat modeling I have had OOrs, sales and yaght. It would seem that a lot of people do not care. Regards :)
Title: Re: That darned apostrophe
Post by: roycv on May 12, 2021, 11:02:06 am
I think we have the spell chequer poem in the humour threads. Roy
Title: Re: That darned apostrophe
Post by: ChrisF on May 12, 2021, 02:00:59 pm
What I want to know is, who decided that the hyphen should disappear from many words? >>:-(
Some words just don't look right without the hyphen and I steadfastly refuse not to use one! <*<
Chris
Title: Re: That darned apostrophe
Post by: SailorGreg on May 12, 2021, 05:54:28 pm
They say that there is no such thing as co-incidence, but, having just read your post . . . .
In the Times yesterday, (Monday 10th May), there was an obituary of a gentleman called John Richards, who has just passed away at the grand old age of 97, whose claim to fame was that he was the founder of the Apostrophe Protection Society. Following a career in local newspapers he founded the Society in 2001 with the stated aim of 'highlighting the misuse of this most misunderstood of punctuation marks'. He attracted worldwide interest, and received a literature award from Harvard University.
He wound up the Society two years ago, citing advancing years, and stating 'the apostrophe is dying'. A glorious British eccentric, and a life well-lived.
Mike
Yes, an odd coincidence. A shame he thought the apostrophe was dying after all his efforts. Its (!) misuse can still make a nonsense of a sentence, as can misuse of other punctuation, as Eats, Shoots and Leaves well demonstrates. And we still see the occasional post, here and elsewhere, without a single full stop or capital letter. I wonder if the writer knows how difficult it makes it for their readers.
I am all for a vibrant, evolving language but there have to be some universal rules to make text understandable and unambiguous. I really believe that correct punctuation is not an optional extra. (And yes, I understand the issue of dyslexia - my brother is dyslexic.)
Right, proof read twice. Just in case. %)
Greg
Title: Re: That darned apostrophe
Post by: Colin Bishop on May 12, 2021, 06:03:40 pm
Yes, getting punctuation wrong can be a catostophe...
Colin
Title: Re: That darned apostrophe
Post by: CGAux26 on May 13, 2021, 03:18:11 pm
I ain't never made but wun mistake in spellin in may laff,, and win i done it I'd scene it, and taken in after is but et hard alredy wint'
Took 3 minuets to right this, fiteing spell chex the hole whey. :embarrassed: <*<
Spelling and grammar count, guys. Check your writing before you post, please.