Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: Klunk on November 11, 2021, 04:19:58 am
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I have a mum who wants to bring her son to have a sail, with a view to getting their own boat after christmas.
The son has cerebral palsy and is severely handicapped. Does any know of a stick conversion set so they are not so small, ie not thumb sticks, more a complete hand stick.
Will be using a spektrum dx6i gen 1 as a tx.
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That's a really interesting question, and one deserving of a decent answer. I'm not much of an engineer, but one possibility crossed my mind. How about a hard rubber tube that could slip over the joystick, cut to a suitable length? It would have some give in it to prevent damage to the transmitter, and increase the travel movement. It might be prudent to use that on a buddy box set up.
Hopefully someone will have a better idea.
Charles.
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The stock stick has a 3mm thread through it.
A 3mm rod or bolt which could be sheathed
with heatshrink tube might do the job.
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You might look into making a tray for the transmitter, this will allow him to rest his hands on the sides and hopefully allow him to grip the sticks better. These trays are used by modelfliers who grip the sticks instead of just using thumbs. The tray is normally supported by a neckstrap although some do use a chest harness.
Jim
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The tray idea is good, but in this case, will not help I'm afraid. Extending the sticks might help a little, especially if i can make them about 35mm diameter.
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My Wife has very bad Rheumatoid Arthritis in her hands so a normal knife and fork are no good for her, when we was in the U.S one of the restaurants gave her some semi hard rubber tube to fit over the handles of the knife and fork, you may be able to get some thing like this from a disability shop?
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There used to be someone in the UK who used to modify transmitters.
Also maybe the transmitters the Germans use fir their RC lorries and truck. Some have large thumb sticks.
Cheers
David
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The tray idea is good, but in this case, will not help I'm afraid. Extending the sticks might help a little, especially if i can make them about 35mm diameter.
Does anyone in the club do 3D printing especially with a resin printer. They could print stick extensions to fit over the existing sticks.
Jim
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You could build up the sticks and slip over a short length of 15mm Pipe lagging.
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The sticks are usually part of the plastic moulding of the gimbal assembly. Just lengthening them carries the risk that the force applied might be more than that which the plastic bit can stand up to. Using the length of rubber tube (or a bit of fuel tube?) as a buffer between stick and handle should get round that problem, whether it is just a soft layer between stick and tube or a flexible/springy joint.
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Thought about contacting your local branch of Remploy? Although a "Specialised" application, would be surprised if something similar for another application hasn't been requested.
Regards Ian.
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Klunk check your Pm's
Kelly
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What about a gloss paint roller (the foam type), about 4" long and 35mm diameter. I've got a pack sat here and it has a really nice feel in the hand, just firm enough to get a grip of but soft enough to be comfortable.
The stick having a 3mm thread makes a temporary modification by means of an adaptor quite easy. I'd think probably Nylon would be in about the right ballpark to be strong enough so that the 3mm thread would break before the transmitter sticks.
I've got a lathe so making a pair of adaptors for this or something else is easy enough, more than happy to help if I can.
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There used to be someone in the UK who used to modify transmitters.
Also maybe the transmitters the Germans use fir their RC lorries and truck. Some have large thumb sticks.
Cheers
David
Mike at modelradioworkshop? He might be able to advise you or sell you some parts. Definitely feasible to use a commercial joystick on a remote lead mounted to a suitable box as it sounds like you need something pretty robust. A 3d printed chunky handle would be a doddle, I like the sound of something like that paint roller also. Could work nicely if it was plasti-dipped for robustness?
RS and Farnell have plenty of 2 axis joysticks which would be more robust but you might not like the price.
Rich
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Ok quick update.
Having spoken to the lads mother, she says he would be better with large buttons. Ideas please
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Many years ago I plugged a "custom" black box into the trainer port of my Spektrum TX to hijack some of the channels to send binary data.
If you are still thinking of using a dx6i gen 1 as a tx, then I would be happy to give it a go of creating "black box" plugin.
It would be something along the lines of a unit/box with control surfaces (buttons") on it and a cable from this to the trainer port of the radio.
What type of model are you proposing to use it with to start with?
Do you have in mind as to what the buttons/functionality would do, how many there would be, do they latch etc?
Fleshing out the specification of the button functionality is key - after that it's pretty simple.
I would suggest that easily accessible limits are included to manage the stick(button) throws.
Proportional control from buttons could be a challenge! - Maybe presets eg. Stop| Slow | Half | Full
Some basics - Is the son able to use both hands to control things at the same time? If not the idea already raised by others of a large joystick unit might work? - All functions would be controlled from just the one stick
(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/14/extreme-3d-pro-joystick53631.png)
Regards
C-3PO
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The buttons would just be basic forward reverse left and right. He has virtually no grip due to cerebral palsy, but he can press buttons. Whether they latch or not, I'm not sure. The boat will be a slow boat, nothing fast. Today he had a go with a club 500 at 1/3rd speed, we set the speed and just let him do the rudder. Using a buddy box of a dx6i gen would be the be the best way forward, that way his mum or myself can override when he makes a mistake
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I will mock something up and post a video.
Regards
C-3PO
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Cheers c3po
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I started last night with some kit on my bench and made some rapid progress.
Then the frustration kicked in as the easy elements of the solution that I have used many times before misbehaved and the new parts I have not performed well - such is life.
I think this project may well go through some iterations as more observations determine the way forward. I would appreciate any input/observations to stop me reinventing the wheel.
A few questions:
- Do you think both hands will/could be used at the same time? - e.g. one hand on Left/Right buttons & other hand on Forward/Reverse OR one hand only that will be used for all four buttons?
- On my Spektrum DX8 you have to hold down the bind button to allow the "trainer port" data to take control - always seemed odd that it was not on a toggle switch - does the DX6 use a toggle switch for the trainer port activation?
- On the DX6i can you mask in the setup menu which channels are active for the trainer port input?
Thinking about the actual user interface hardware:
- Do you have a suggestion as to what size the buttons are - are we talking circular pads approx 2-4"?
- If user is using both hands will the buttons need to be split/seperated to 2 arms of a wheel chair?
I will add some logic to cover events like left and right or forward and reverse button being pressed at the same time. Like wise I will add in the "proportional" element with some logic that will be missing using an on/off control in the absence of proportional stick travel
Regards
C-3PO
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One handed use at a time with 2 to 4" buttons ideal. Throttle would best if we could preset as well, 1/3, 1/2, 3/4 and full with same reverse, if possible.
Im only going to use a dx6i gen 1 with toggle switch. I have 3 of them so its easier for me.
As the child has cerebral palsy, his coordination is not good. Its best to have the buttons for forward/ reverse and Left/right separated. I doubt he will be able to hold a tx unit, so it would need to be built like a child's toy, big box big buttons, keeping it simple. His mum will always be on hand to help due to child protection issues.
Hope this helps
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Was going to suggest the old Fubarta "Buddy Box" system suitably modified but C-3PO has jumped in with an answer. Pity that it will mean compromising a modern transmitter to do this OR a custom built solution shouldn't be too expensive given the modules available or a cheap system.
Regards Ian.
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Hi Circlip,
No compromise of the DX6i at all - "black box" will be middle man between user control board (switches) and the transmitter trainer port - once finished just unplug from the TX - voila!
The cost of this will all be the in the hardware, cables, switches etc - The contents of the black box will be pennies.
I will build and supply an initial set FOC - most of the kit is readily available from my junk box...
The only need to spend money is if specific/specialised switches are required. On that note I wonder if capacitive touch switches would be a positive addition as then no pressure required to close a switch contact - just touch the switch surface,easily incorporated with the initial hardware I intend to use.
Regards
C-3PO
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Good to see that there are some still capable of "Grafting mods" onto existing gear. :-)) Trainer port? Buddy box connection?
Regards Ian.
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Stage one complete - Black box interface via the trainer port in control of 8 transmitter channels
https://youtu.be/TP9m4ECKCp4 (https://youtu.be/TP9m4ECKCp4)
(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/15/2021-11-15_21-54-45.png)
https://youtu.be/TP9m4ECKCp4 (https://youtu.be/TP9m4ECKCp4)
**Update
4 buttons connected to the black box interface successfully change transmitter channel values via the trainer port - now the hard bit - applying the rules/logic as to how this thing works...
(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/15/IMG_1598.jpg)
Regards
C-3PO
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Having spent some time with this subject more aspects come to the surface of what's involved to create a workable solution.
The user of the buttons will have no visual feedback apart from the model movement as to what state they have set the throttle or steering (nor will the "Master" handset controller be able to see status to anticipate taking back control), on the TX handset we get that feedback by feeling/seeing where we have positioned the TX sticks.
To add back some proportional feedback I have decided to use RGB LED strips which would display the throttle/steering settings visually.
(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/16/IMG_1599.jpg)
Regards
C-3PO
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Good idea, had not thought of that.
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Has anyone asked the young man what he would like to use in a way of controlling his boat?.
Len.
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Buttons
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Funny you mentioned buttons, I thought that from the start. As I hacked old transmitters before all the sticks do is assign a resistance to a function. If you fit resistors to a push switch, you can set the output to anything you like as long as it's within the resistance. If you used a pattern of buttons there's no reason not to be able to go forwards, back, left or right it would just be a bit jerky but that's overcomable and probably not an issue.
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Has anyone asked the young man what he would like to use in a way of controlling his boat?.
Len.
....sounds like it from post No 14?
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Visual feedback proportional display under test
https://youtu.be/O4CCcUi42fw
(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/16/2021-11-16_20-23-02.png)
https://youtu.be/O4CCcUi42fw
Regards
C-3PO
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Impressive but will your subject be looking at that LED board or the boat?
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I don't know whether the visual display will be of any use to the button user. It would be nice to think that it would be of some use otherwise how do they know what they have commanded the radio control unit to do? Time will tell and some rethinking is inevitable...
Slightly awkward language I know - the radio uses the two terms "Master" and "Slave" with regards to the trainer port.
Going forward I will use the terminology of "Master" the user in control of the Spektrum handset (Mr Klunk) and "Slave" the user in control of button control board that feeds into the trainer port of the radio handset.
There is a secondary use for the visual proportional display - the Master also needs to know what the Slave has commanded the radio to do as they are the one with the ability to flip the trainer switch and take back control of the radio transmitter in conjunction with viewing what the model is doing. Would be a shame if the Master took back control when the Slave had the situation under control.
I was a little surprised, I am not sure what I expected with regards to the way the trainer port works. You flick the switch on the handset which literally delegates control to the Slave user and the Master cannot make any changes to the channel positions until you flick the trainer switch again to take back control. I expected some sort of mixing- I think - not exactly sure how that would work.....
Regards
C-3PO
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The visual aspect of the feed back would be good for the child. As long he doesn't get fixated on it. Hopefully I will be speaking to his parents this weekend so any questions let me know so i can ask
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An excellent & yes impressive concept for a remote function out of view and without a notched gymbal, however I am with RST & Klunk on this as a tremendous temptation to 'watch the lights' & not the craft
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An excellent & yes impressive concept for a remote function out of view and without a notched gymbal, however I am with RST & Klunk on this as a tremendous temptation to 'watch the lights' & not the craft
Don't make me agree with Drekewarner again as it doesn't happen often! If that kid wants to experience a model out in the fresh air cross a pond and a push button does it for him acording to his family then concentrate on that -nobody could care less as long as it can go forwards, left and right -push the button and you don't need fancy controls to do it!!!!!!
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...Thinking more -I used to design control panels but if pushbuttons are desired then it might be worth considering elevating the forwards part of it so the elbows or wrists don't accidentally push the wrong buttons. It's ALL very do-able when you think about the practicalities first rather than the magic of the technics YOU are used to! It's a very admirable task but I'd wager not so easy in practical terms which is why it's so diffult to engage those so less fortunate than us.
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We have had great success in the club over the last few years. As a club we do talks in primary schools about the history of boats, as part of the curriculum, and engaged with the children to create art, and discover why boats float and materials used to create boats. We have also engaged with young adults with mental health issues and I am actively helping this child fulfill a wish to sail a rc boat.
I believe any club can engage within their community, it just takes effort. As clubs we support many charities like RNLI, air ambulances etc, but sometimes forget the local people who have no idea we as clubs even exist! Our club has been sailing for 50 odd years but I still meet people who walk in the park that did not know we existed, and many clubs are probably like that!
How many times have we all seen a child, disabled or not looking at the boats? I know there are child protection rules etc etc, but if the parent is there, why not engage and ask them if they would like a go?
I have a Robbe Atlantis, some of you have seen it at Mayhem. My record so far is 35 people in a day sailing her at Black Park a few years back. I had to go looking for the tx!! I've also taught a 96 year old lady to sail her after she complemented me on the beautiful white yacht. I'm all for letting members of the public have a go of any of my boats (not the really fast ones though!) Anything can be repaired or rebuilt! Thats why I have over 200 boats/yachts/subs!!
Next year.....hopefully.....i hope to engage with more local groups and put on sailing days for them.
Engage within the community, you have nothing to loose
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Probably not the solution needed but my answer to being left handed
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The disco lights video was a simple display test to check that all RGB leds were working - not how the display would work in reality.
I do have a couple of brain cells that allow me to realise that a flashing multi colour display could become mesmerizing...
Under normal use my vision is that no more than a couple of leds would be lit - simply showing the current selection/status of the throttle and rudder channels.
So my system that needs pulling together but essentially all working:
C-3PO solution - Specification/functionality
- External interface “buddy box” concept using trainer port, non invasive to radio handset – main user can take control at any point
- Physical user interface choice from Buttons | Light sensors/beam breakers | Capacitive switching| Distance sensing | Joystick | Voice ( Alexa eat your heart out) Note- some of these options would need further testing /evaluation)
- Configurable channel end points – flexible on the fly selection
- Configurable channel increment/decrement step size with automatic infill to ensure smooth transition (unlike resistance ladders)
- Visual display of user status
- Cheap
- Cable lengths allow social / appropriate child distancing
Getting this from the bench to something that could be used in the real world will take some time of which I have very little!!!
Regards
C-3PO
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Touch servo control
https://youtu.be/VsUgkuKGtic
(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/19/2021-11-19_20-58-31.png)
https://youtu.be/VsUgkuKGtic
Regards
C-3PO
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How about a single button solution with simple bang bang control like very early non proportional R/C?
One press- go left, press again centre, two presses within a time window to go right, press again centre.
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WITHOUT knowing the full range of disability and NOT wishing to offend the PC brigade, I think the bang - bang solution may get confusing.
Are you going to use a 10p piece for forard and 5p for backard C3PO? ;)
Regards Ian.
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I suspect this will go through several iterations to get to a solution for this young lad.
There are lots of unanswered questions which make most attempts right now a shot in the dark. Klunk is going to exlpore this further...
However by putting some ideas into play it's a better place to be than starting with a blank piece of paper and may then help the development process in consultation with parents and the young lad.
For example - it may not be possible to have a single control that is pressed multiple times to change a value - it might need to multiple controls along an axis that are required to be touched/pressed individually to change a value.
It's possible that some controls could work well it they "latched" after a being touched/pressed for a couple of seconds until released.
So from my side I don't think anything is set in stone, I have just wanted to show that it is possible to easily and cheaply build an interface to talk to the trainer port on the radio that has multiple input options.
I have quite a few different ideas with regards to the input/end user options - clearly this needs to be guided by the end user and his parents.
I will give it my best shot to get a working solution.
Update
An idea to chuck into the melting pot - possible layout for touch button control
(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/11/20/Touch-Button-Control.png)
Regards
C-3PO
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Main problem, what level of disability? Only Klunk can fill that one in.
Regards Ian.
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C3p0, they didntbturn up today, too cold, will email them with questions
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The buttons need to be "tuned", to match the potentiometer throws on the transmitter.
So, if you have a transmiter potentiometer that reads 0-2500 ohms you need to create three values.
When no button is pressed, then you want feedback to read, say, 1250 ohms, or midpoint.
Full foward button might read 2500 ohms, and full reverse would then be Zero ohms.
Something like that. :o
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No potentiometer resistance tuning in my solution - it's not required - I do however require a radio with a trainer port which allows direct control
It's possible to "hack" the control of some radio transmitters and mess around with multiple resistance elements on the controls (potentiometers and switches) - opening the radio case comes it's own set of baggage and clearly not for everyone.
Quite a few radios these days use Hall Effect sensors on the gimbals that digitally talk to the main board - no pots in sight.
Radio's with a "trainer port" socket provide a simple and non-invasive way to interface with the radio and when you are done you simply pull out the plug from the radio.
My aim is to provide a solution that is not radio manufacturer or radio model specific - just need to have a trainer port available.
I played around with a homebrew touchscreen radio once - it worked well - however in it's early stages I had no "intelligence" built into it that infilled/delayed the "stick position" changes - the result was not good.
I was messing around with a Vosper Perkasa torpedo boat, due to the flat vertical stern face - going from neutral throttle midstick to full reverse in an instant with no small increments to get to full throttle resulted in a tidal wave going right over the boat as it dug into the water - I almost sunk the model in a split second.
Regards
C-3PO
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Attempt No.1 at a solution underway...likely the button layout will need rethinking over time
(https://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2021/12/18/Flex001.png)
Regards
C-3PO
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Looking good!