Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Navy - Military - Battleships: => Topic started by: JohnG on July 26, 2022, 10:33:07 am
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I’m starting the cad modelling for a new 3d print and build.
It follows on from my HMS Broke build.
https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=64903.0 (https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=64903.0)
SMS G42 was one of the ships involved with HMS Broke in the Battle of the Dover Strait - so it continues the (rather niche) theme..
She was built by Germaniawerft in Kiel in 1915. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_G42
There’s a rather fine builders model of sister ship G37 an the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich, which is probably going to be my best source of detail. I plan to go see the model and take plenty of photos.
https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-67387
Here’s a couple of early screenshots of the cad hull modelling – with the pic of the nmm model mounted behind that i worked from. I'm using the 'blender' 3d package again - much quicker second time round.
( I just realised I’ve flipped the photo, and then modelled it – so the non symmetric part of the bridge is a mirror image of what it should be – oops – need to flip it back! )
I also found a few different plans of other ww1 german torpedo boats I’ve waiting for delivery of a plan of S49 from the Polish Modelarstwo Okretowe (thanks to ballastanksian for the suggestion). These other plans give some help to complement the nmm model, even if not exactly the same layout. There’s also a good 3d printed model of a v25 here https://scalemodelguy.com/index.php/sms-v25/ (https://scalemodelguy.com/index.php/sms-v25/) but the layout is significantly different.
Info on the G37-G42 ships is pretty sparse. I eventually took the hull cross section/profiles from a V170 plan. http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/plans/SM_V170-177_1918/
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I assume that S23 was similar to S29, so these may help if you end up in that direction. http://dreadnoughtproject.org/plans/SM_S23_1913/
:-))
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thanks Tony,
yes i'd spotted that one - again a different layout esp around the bridge/1st funnel.
curious that one of the S23 drawings shows a sail hoisted on the aft mast - i had no idea the masts might be used for sails on these ships. i wonder if it was to steady the roll of the ship rather than propulsion?
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Hi John,
The sail facility seems to have been common on TBs and TB destroyers of the period. Some years ago I built this one (See:Pointy Thing) which carried a jib on a "just in case" basis. Witnesses from this esteemed forum will tell you that she steered like a dog due to the screws being aft of the rudders but she did move forward quite well under sail alone. http://dreadnoughtproject.org/French%20Warship%20Plans/Arquebuse_1902/
Tony
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Great news John! Your design is looking good already. I am glad the info I remembered from a while back is of some use. The magazines are excellent.
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well it's been a while, but the model is finally making progress.
i visited the NMM at greenwich - saw and photographed their model of G37 which was on display. a fine model in a larger scale, so lots of detail. This becomes my main source.
i've put a lot more detail into the 3d model (And found a way to display with slightly funky colours)
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the process is as described for my hms broke build - model in 'blender' package, and print on home 3d printer
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Printing - getting over the separation.....
i've nearly done the main print of the hull. 1:96 scale as before.
I'm printing in PETG instead of ABS - with the HMS Broke model it was a major problem getting adhesion between the filament layers in the prints.
(i ended up gluing some extra abs on the inside of the model for strength - using it rather like glass mat for strength.)
Anyway, this time, after reading round, a few false starts, and a new print head on my Ender 3, i'm finally getting something robust with PETG filament.
This is the bow section - comes out v shiny, and with a definitely rough surface from the filament.
(PETG is heat and water resistant enough, but can't use the acetone smoothing that works with the ABS)
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After sanding and a skim of humbrol filler, the surface is pretty good. i'll find our more when i put primer on.
The hull is in 5 sections. 4 of the 5 are printed and the 5th on the printer as i type - a 13 hour print.
meantime i'm prepping and jointing the ones done so far.
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It has been long enough that I don't remember whether this model is intended for static display or in-water operation.Question is, what effect on an operational model would that rough surface from printing have?
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A question on colours....
now a question - what colour should she be - german channel operations in 1917?
the builders model at the NMM is black above the waterline and grey below. Looks quite impressive, and easy to model!
[size=0px]https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-67387 (https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-67387)[/size][/color]
does anyone have any other info/views??
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It has been long enough that I don't remember whether this model is intended for static display or in-water operation.Question is, what effect on an operational model would that rough surface from printing have?
Hi Scott,
She's intended to go on water, RC controlled. the rough surface is pretty much removed by sand/fill/sand - i wouldn't have been happy with it direct off the printer.
(in contrast the layer separation would have had quite a serious effect on in water operation..... :-) )
i'm no expert at 3d printing - just do enough to get the result i want. it does seem the PETG is slightly rougher that the abs was using the same process.
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hull now in one piece. shouldn't take too long (famous last words) to smooth the joints and get a coat of primer on.
meantime rudder ordered along with some brass rods for masts etc. progress!
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well, i have a hull! all 5 pieces joined, smoothed, and a quick coat of primer to show how the finish looks. some touching up to do, but overall not so bad..
(also shown for scale against my model of hms broke. both 1/96 and the g42 hull is around 20cm shorter. )
must say i quite like the black (as per builders model). though looking online at ww1 era photos, they do tend to look more grey than black.
I'd value any comments - colours for ww1 channel fleet?
here are a few pics i found so far. with b&w images it's near impossible to judge the colour tone..
https://www.alamy.com/german-torpedo-boats-in-flanders-1916-image68839146.html?imageid=B23C9669-C3C0-4708-AD06-7433DF05A5F2&p=291611&pn=1&searchId=7a505538b1d7a6a95b717d269a3705c5&searchtype=0
https://www.alamy.com/sms-g-135-image397133913.html?imageid=CBB35B49-96C9-46CE-BA7D-23DE17D61560&p=1392328&pn=1&searchId=5d7f1bea9011451b8e4d4642914f07c3&searchtype=0
https://www.alamy.com/german-torpedo-boats-1916-image68839148.html?imageid=5DDE4769-1384-4C65-949F-3A0510BE6A2D&p=291611&pn=1&searchId=5c40a9454885ffbda682400f9c167b47&searchtype=0
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Hi John
Great to see this back on the stocks. After seeing Broke last year I am looking forward to seeing her German counterpart. You can see the differences in design between the two navies. I was shocked after reading several books on the subject of destroyers of how many German TBDs and destroyers were lost in WW1 compared to the British vessels.
Keep up the amazing work :-))
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thanks nick - encouragement appreciated. i've pencilled in the wicksteed weekend - though there's no way i'll have this one finished by then.
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I think that as the war progressed warships got somewhat lighter, but many vessels were much darker than you would find in WW2.
Go with what you find as a consensus John. I painted my destroyer with the dark grey available from Halfords in a rattle can but you may find it worth mixing your own from other sources such as bulk buy of Revell or Humbrol tinlets, or from Sovereign, who will probably have shades based on research.
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thanks for the comment ian.
based on a couple of references that google turned up, eg
http://www.gwpda.org/naval/s1200000.htm#:~:text=Torpedo%20boats%20were%20painted%20black,cases%20styles%20of%20disruptive%20camouflage.
plus the fact that the builders model at nmm greenwich is black, i think i'll go with that. most likely vallejo as i've used their colour before with the airbrush.
in other news:
- i've been treated to a resin printer - v pleased with the initial results - far better definition as hoped for. first out are the main sections of the bridge. i wouldn't have thought of trying to print the port and starboard lanterns with the other printer. here they are great.
the snag is of course that now it's possible to include more detail, which means take more time to do the cad work... ah well
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I bought a couple printers last year (one of each) to try out. I haven't used them yet as I have not yet had room but reckon they do have potential. The resin printer has the benefit indeed of giving you smoother surfaces especially if you angle the print to minimise stepping.
The support work done in the slicer program looks to be pivotal to getting a good pprint.
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making a little progress - the black is looking good - i'll keep grey below the waterline as per the original shipyard's builders model.
the main bridge, funnels and air scoops placed on the (not yet painted) deck. starts to look menacing - as i rather think the original would have done!
annoyingly i hadn't gently sanded enough the edge to the first coat of grey despite trying to airbrush a soft edge to the grey below the waterline - the masking tape line shows - so will have to go back over with wet and dry and then respray.
yes Ian, adjusting the slicer is a key part of the printing - both filament and resin (and of course different progs to run for each). Particularly looking at the print layer by layer (not as slow as it sounds) to see what will actually print saves a few wasted prints too.
on balance though it's the cad prog that's the really complex bit i'm finding. i work with blender for the cad primarily because that's where i found the hull modelling process when i started. i'm managing to add eg steps up the funnels and metalwork around them too with the resin print - will be interesting to see how it looks once picked out in a metallic paint.
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Yup, them printers are not plug and play. The destroyer looks great so far John!
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What a great motivator Mayhem at Wicksteed is:
Decided if i was coming to the weekend, i really needed to be able to bring something - especially as it was Ian (previous commenter) who gave me the 'what are you going to build next?' nudge last year...
so lots of work done this past week:
- Main deck fittings printed, painted, placed (not yet permanently fixed)
- Props/motors/electrics fitted/tested
- Bath test - fixed leaks (oops) , and balanced
so ready for wicksteed!!
The only question is 'do i dare put her in the water - when i haven't tuned the handling at all ?'....... (especially given previous history with earlier model that didn't quite make it back to shore when insufficiently tested.... ) .. Watch this space.....
anyway car just about packed - off in the morning. yippee!
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There is a fine flotilla of escort vessels building up at Wicksteed now, what with Tony's German Torpedo boat and British Destroyer, and now your pair!
We just need a battle ship!
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Ha, now that I can provide, Iron Duke or Invincible!!
Cheers
Geoff
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Hopefully I’ll have an operational large light cruiser next year too :} …
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And a Dutch "pantserdekschip" for the coastal work! :-))
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We spoke at Mayhem and I mentioned a Warship Profile old magazine that was on a German ww1 destroyer. Some snapshots for you. Pretty sure you can still get a copy but to be fair there arn't many on board detailed shots but its simiklar to what you are building.
Cheers
Geoff
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There is a fine flotilla of escort vessels building up at Wicksteed now, what with Tony's German Torpedo boat and British Destroyer, and now your pair!
We just need a battle ship!
definitely a date for next year.... should be a sight to see!
We spoke at Mayhem and I mentioned a Warship Profile old magazine that was on a German ww1 destroyer. Some snapshots for you. Pretty sure you can still get a copy but to be fair there arn't many on board detailed shots but its simiklar to what you are building.
Cheers
Geoff
many thanks geoff - just had a quick look and found/ordered a copy from ebay - even a few pics will be useful..
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My Bad, I should have written 'German' Battleship! %%
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Well I do have drawings of SMS Baden so it’s never off the table! ok2
And I have a hull of SMS Scharnhorst that itching to be built!
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If German, still the same answer, I have Invincible and Iron Duke!! :-) :-)
Cheers
Geoff
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Whilst not the same there is a very nice model on display at Chatham Dockyard and you are now allowed to take pictures.
Hope the attached may help
Cheers
Geoff
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Thanks Geoff. Also i found some interesting pics in the 'profile warship 27' you suggested. Every little helps (And is appreciated!).
the builders model of sister ship g37 at nmm greenwich (pic below) remains my best source by far. there's even more detail than i'll be include since i'm modelling in a smaller scale (1:96) .
just need to get back to her after wicksteed/wings n wheels. small atomisers for the smoke gen have arrived and look promising..
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How goes it John?
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They have a nice model in the Maritime Museum, Greenwich. More models have appeared. Hope this works!
Cheers
Geoff
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hi geoff,
yes that's the rather fine builders model of sister ship g37. Since it came from the Germaniawerft yard I rather think it’s the closest i'm going to get to g42 for details.
I've been to see it and taken a lot of photos which i'm working from...
i realised i'd not posted anything after mayhem at wicksteed when i put her on the water for the first time - here's a couple of pics
and a video clip of her in some fine (slightly older) company. Apologies for the quality – it’s definitely multi tasking to drive the model and take video!
https://youtu.be/HRwGkuWdLyQ?si=H4ogqlJ4mSkA59WL
there’s still a lot of detail to add. including the dreaded stanchions!
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How goes it John?
thanks for asking Ian. not so much progress since wicksteed - life got in the way.. . i have added various details to the blender/cad file with ladders and railings - can be seen here, though not printed them yet.
i'm wondering whether to use the resin printer to make the railings, but think i'll go with brass etch to match the stanchions.. that will also be stronger. i may print a resin version to see how it looks..
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At 1/96 I would use photo-etch brass (you can get individual stanchions from Deans Marine) and then use Beadalong which is a jewellery thread. Its 7 strand and .28mm in diameter so perfect for our models as typically railings (other than bridge works) would be wire.
Its not expensive but make sure you get the thread and not the wire as the wire is single strand.
Cheers
Geoff
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thanks geoff - i remembered our discussion at wicksteed, and have just had a reel of beadalong delivered last week! thanks for the advice. i bought the 0.38mm as that fits the 2 hole stanchions (quaycraft iirc) ordered a while ago. To my eye it looks ok for scale.
Out of curiosity, do you put laqueur or similar on the stanchions? – iirc you leave the brass colour visible..
Anyway, no real excuse to avoid installing them now.. …
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If you have a friend or family member who rides horses, clipped/combed horse tail hairs make good cables for your stanchions. I found my bag the other day so might get on soon and finish the Destroyer. Stopping the stanchions from bending inwards with any pressure from the cables is a challenge.
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If you have a friend or family member who rides horses, clipped/combed horse tail hairs make good cables for your stanchions. I found my bag the other day so might get on soon and finish the Destroyer. Stopping the stanchions from bending inwards with any pressure from the cables is a challenge.
not heard that one before. i think i'll try the beadalong and see how it goes. (but do post some pics when you install the horse hair- curious to see it).
i'd previously used the split pin type stanchions from James Lane, with copper wire - as helpfully posted by shipmate60 here:
https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4898.msg49695.html#msg49695
but i think i saw somewhere that James Lane sadly passed away.
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I tried to get some of his but he had retired some time before I was on the lookout for more substantial stanchions. Great idea though.
Does anyone know what equipment Mr. Lane[size=78%] used to make them (jigs/dies etc) and whether they are still around? [/size]
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I tried to get some of his but he had retired some time before I was on the lookout for more substantial stanchions. Great idea though.
Does anyone know what equipment Mr. Lane[size=78%] used to make them (jigs/dies etc) and whether they are still around? [/size]
This is what I found from searching mayhem… equipment gone and a potential technique mr lane must have done something similar i'd guess – both helpful posts by John W E. Personally I’ll try the etch route for now.
https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,68764.msg745251.html#msg745251
https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,26301.msg258096.html#msg258096
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If you want more substantial ones at a price then I'd suggest the RB ones from Deans or others https://deansmarine.co.uk/shop/index.php/cPath/1_93
Tony
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Typically I would paint the stanchions in grey or in your case black and just use the beadalon wire as it is as real stanchions wouldn't be in brass. As regards the RB stanchions (11mm high) these are the best you can get and are CNC machined but the supply is limited due to issues with getting goods out of the EU. Be aware there are also two types for our 1/96 scale RB 074113 (equal spaced which are as rare as hens teeth) and RB 074113B which are unequal spaced which are the ones Deans Marine has. There are also other sources on e-bay which you may want to investigate.
Unequal spaced means there is a bigger gap between the top rail and the lower two. It depends on the ship and when it was built and photo's will guide you.
I tend to "bling" my models a little to add interest by having searchlight rims in brass and a few smaller fittings and perhaps leaving grab rails in brass, binnacles and similar bridge instruments. I tend to paint them in satin varnish to protect them and also so they are not too bright, just catches the eye.
For the wire I use fly fishing swivels as turnbuckles (they are very small, and fly fishing crimps to join the wire. They are black very thin copper tube. Cut it into lengths of about 4mm thread the wire through, round the fitting and back through the crimp. Adjust and then put a spot of superglue on the joint and slid it up tight then cut the tail off. It works well and is quite neat.
Cheers
Geoff
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v helpful geoff - thanks!