Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Navy - Military - Battleships: => Topic started by: Allen A on July 04, 2023, 02:34:30 pm
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Hi Guys, hoping someone can help me with a small project being as I am a a novice on boats.I got a PT Boat, £90 posted and with most electrics, only need a controller and battery it seems.Yes I know we pay for what we get but I didn't want to jump straight in and pay a lot to start with and besides I like fiddling and mending which is just as well, although to be fair there doesn't seem to be much major wrong with it. Its 29 1/2 inches long and as near as I can figure out 1/32 scale, it appears to be a Lindberg, it needs a mast and all guns have the barrels broken, Ive found a single Oerlikon online but the barrels are broken on the .50 cals and cant seem to find any anywhere.The motor does run and runs well, pretty powerful on test when rigged direct to the battery from MY Roc Hobby 1/6 scale Jeep, what I need as I say is I think simply a controller and a battery to fit the elecs that came with it, any advice on deck fittings etc also appreciated as well as paint color and availability, so looking for, actually hoping that there may be some second hand/used stuff out there
Ive been down loading various pics of this model for comparison to mine, give me a better idea of what is missing and that hopefully I can get for it, in the meantime am sourcing transmitter and receivers for it too, all it needs to be a runner I think .. wondered if there would be any going second hand here as I said ?When I floated it for about 20 mins, it sat even and on removing it there was no water inside, of course it may be a different scenario after being under power ??
Initially I put its its condition as being due to wear and tear but I dismantled it and realised the guy was not a good modeller after all, the amount of excess glue being very evident.Despite all the glue I was able to dismantle most of it back to most of its component parts and after a cleaning and sanding session now have a cleaner area to work on, there will be some minor filling needed but I'm happy it has gone back better and more secure.I'm going to have to remove the motor and put it back in a lower position, its either that or cut a hole in the upper structure that will eat into the floor space of the bridge area and I'm not about to do that I did say in my original post that I liked fiddling, working on stuff and its just as well as to get this to something like it should be is going to take a little more work, It is true that you get what you pay for and I am beginning to realise that this isn't what I thought it was, still and all what I paid for it maybe covers the electrics that came with it ..
Any and all help and advice would be appreciated
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HI AllenA
Well im sellin my meter or so long gun boat for 40 pound with R/C AN IT LIKE an mtb an ive got spare motors 540 motors for about 7 quid each an a bigger 4 cha R/C with r/x but 40 meg for a cheap price but where do you live as if you want the boat an r/c then you will have to come an collect it hope this is some help to you an if you want a linkpicture of the boat then i'll put one on here ?
chris ps boat an r/c need batts
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Hi, thanks for the input, I'm in West Yorks so no chance of a picking anything up I'm afraid, thanks too for the info, problem is In not sure what it is I need to complete the inner workings of the boat .. I have managed to source deck fittings etc to complete the look but it is info on suitable transmitter/receiver and battery type to suit whats already in it Im after if anyone can help ..
It came with a Vision 500 12 volt marine motor, a Futaba FP-R122JE AM 2 ch receiver, an Mtronics Viper Marine plug and play what I think is a speed controller ?? and a Futaba S3003 servo for the rudder.
Im going to be looking to upgrade to 4 channel if I can and also toying with putting some working lights on it.
If you have anything suitable (and postable) that will work please let me know, Im a complete novice at RC boats to be honest, slowly learning though :-))
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I thought maybe pics would help .. or not of course .. Shows the boat as I got it and the layout of the existing elecs in it .. with all the different battery types available Im wondering what the best type is for marine stuff ?
Other pics show it in various stages of being dismantled etc. and an example of bad construction by whoever initially built it, talk about excess glue (if you're of a nervous disposition don't look) :o :}2
Advice on color, the best paints and where to get them appreciated too
OOOH KKKAY ... !! .. so, how do I attach images please, clicking on upload image, get a box asking me to sign in ( I am already ??) but when I enter log in details get a message saying 'qrong combination ..???
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YES PIC PLEASE
CHRISB
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well Allen
i post my pics to imgbb free hostin site then i just use the image codes to up load a linkpic to this site if you look at my tiger build an click on the links a piture will come up as thats the only way i can do
chrisb
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A couple of other forums Im on, click attach, lets me choose from my PC and then upload .. as I say though, clicking on upload image (green box) and it brings up a log in box, to what I dont know as Im already logged in of course .. then when I try and put log in details in it says wrong combination of name and p'word ... mods please .. or someone ..
Im not a fan of clouds etc, nothing simpler than adding from your own pic locations I feel .. but then Im old school and sometimes think that depending how it is set up, technology makes things harder not simpler .. ??
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I see a lot of people reading this and so perhaps an explanation is in order
I guess Im having a second childhood, always liked and wanted things like this but never managed to get them so making up for it now. Been a historical re-enactor most of my life, mostly American West, had a full size chuckwagon and camp and ran a successful display team ... I'm now into WWII and recently got a Roc Hobby 1/6 scale Jeep which I turned into a replica of a jeep at RAF Shipdham in 1942 from a pic I found of one .. even gone to the extent of making things for the jeep that don't come with it to make it more realistic, having friends with jeeps that I get to ride in helps too, and now the 1/6 scale is as accurate as I can get even down to a driver and passenger, Action Man of course, about £3 each to buy and over £100 to clothe with DD stuff, what's the point of all that you're probably thinking, well to give you an idea of where Im coming from and what I want to do with the PT Boat.
I don't want to do PT109, everyone does it and from researching the subject of real PT boats, it seems that the only time they all looked the same was when they left the factory, and whereas there may have been a few that looked similar, as in a squadron, for the most part they were, to use a word 'personalised' by their Capt and crew and differed greatly it seems, this to a degree I think gives carte blanche when doing up a model, that's not to say make excuses or take short cuts but actually base the build on photos from WWII, as we used to say in the western hobby, if its in a picture from the time, it cant be wrong ?
So I have been busy and from the research I have done I am getting together bits that are missing from this one to put together what I hope will be an acceptable and realistic representation of a WWII PT boat.
Having learnt a thing or two from doing the jeep, I put rear lights in as it had none and a few other things, I am putting a working searchlight on it, as well as navigation lights and if I can a mast light too.
This kit doesn't have them or if it did the guy I bought it from lost them, so I need to source the bridge fittings, all that is there right now is a wheel.
Hopefully my questions wont appear to dumb and that this helps folks understand what I'm trying to do and how I want to do it :-)
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It came with a Vision 500 12 volt marine motor, a Futaba FP-R122JE AM 2 ch receiver, an Mtronics Viper Marine plug and play what I think is a speed controller ?? and a Futaba S3003 servo for the rudder.
Im going to be looking to upgrade to 4 channel if I can and also toying with putting some working lights on it.
If you have anything suitable (and postable) that will work please let me know, Im a complete novice at RC boats to be honest, slowly learning though :-))
Welcome to the Mayhem! Unless you really want to go all out for new running gear, the motor and Viper speed controller should do fine, as will the rudder servo. Obviously the receiver won't, partly because you don't have a transmitter to go with it and because you want to go to 4 channels. If you can't find a suitable 2nd hand set, I suggest you go for a Flysky FSi6 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/402350959761?hash=item5dadfc6c91:g:aiQAAOSw64Fipwon&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwNam5hxhDl%2FwyWoMyPVwUdIP9D602TbihIxDzhRM698D%2FnRiyVoS%2BvcShB5JN3ao18HYGAm1C5xXaPwGU%2BTosUmLLuvlbCeBjH5%2B5sPklInMp4iEBc9GNp6ro1N1QfGwO0AI4uuIA2Wf7S84awl%2BBmlVDclHZ%2FFJiduRc1ulmIbQI%2BGrxog9wsYqbz%2BIE0835CUhLmUV%2BdY6LTYu6i%2FzVkReSX8KghsOELNhomyjGSWch4M0nElbNJW27GZKMma%2Fbg%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABlBMUOC6q_CkYg), which is a 6 channel set, is very reasonably priced and has many features of more expensive sets. Also the receivers are easily obtainable for when you get another boat (as you surely will :-)) ).
And if you are looking for fittings, a browse through the Battlecrafts (https://www.battlecrafts.com/)site might well throw up what you are after.
Have fun!
Greg
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Hi Greg .. erm its a PT Boat, not a PBY .. :} :}
Seriously many thanks, that's the sort of info I'm after and that looks the business, will bear it in mind .. do you know of Modelsport in Otley, dealt with them re the 1/6 jeep, may see what thye have re transmitters etc.
Yes, I have come across BattleCrafts and in fact had some stuff from them in the correct scale, including the navigation lights I was talking about that includes two spare white lights, for bow and mast maybe ??
Also got a single Oerlikon coming as that and the two twin.50 cals were broken on this one, cant seem to find any .50 cals anywhere so managed to re-barrel them with small piping, amazing what you can learn from watching 'The Repair Shop' :-)) .. now as to battery, what type would be best for marine then please .. Nicad .. Niamh .. Lipo etc etc .. ??
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Heeellpp ... oh boy, I just burnt out my speed controller ... dont ask .. :embarrassed:
So I went and bought the FlySky transmitter/receiver combo and suitable battery, all fitted OK got a response, motor ran but rudder servo wouldn't, Im thinking the servo could be duff ?? so in the meantime I thought I would play around with sorting the lighting I want to put in when the time comes, ... long a story short, fiddling with connections, a couple of bare wires and ... ?? !!
Got to get a new speed controller so stepping back from that for a bit and concentrating on the paint side of things ... going for a dark grey deck, light grey hull and red (ish) waterline .. will post pics when Ive got them sorted .. !
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A useful gismo to keep in your toolbox is a servo tester (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/263234220449?hash=item3d49fb71a1:g:FdsAAOSw6lRi58mm&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4GDFt%2BWQldPd78L7yLCo7JYHAcOO5%2FC%2FAqvF5FkvXryxUUmgfiCn40QjHTR%2BhUPLk4JVcGhp7n7YYPamHiIerepQXmJPOygaK7fF%2FIc%2BY8M66hJLbZPiXpEaeNrK%2Bg2FiLLwOdbQZbkVCfyjihClU%2BTb26CRzxWfq%2BOE3PIaxrRnJKi48tjQOHbiuE1FHKvybeeqzPSesq0O27AiDipXX3StmELU7OXbGdZIw6NYTDWkopOQcGJpb1ptabYoSNKIgT6qCVVlldAFjPG8MxbIidTvkvG5tv8%2F82ZcvklOHiG4%7Ctkp%3ABFBMgNPPwKVi). It will need a small battery connected to it but it allows you to test servo operation completely independently of all the other stuff in the boat. And a similar thing to test your batteries is one of these (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/283522634964?hash=item42034414d4:g:a8MAAOSwtfpdC45y&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4EuxWKiHrhxNE05jL4Uow9KpgVvdDNi5zi2KcQjSgD7uPzn3TRTlxFvSNR0OcnVLgWePT8e3gGtB3vyCV41ilTLOfgQ1xDm2yzxjThMfcEEqxzt4U%2FsLNmpl7QWICgn36kRREMCK0%2Fvd3mzHvDNg5Aeb3xdDAtQqoFaHnfGuTTTThxtbGnoWCPJoG%2BHW4OAKrLD3lm%2BuoehBdqpHz8CVFWFfbC7iF0LwLprFR%2FPkvpcVc7QOenOut9PzhBlyGtgkCeoelS3I30E6KkkqJ5uGF6ocwCQtPPFkOr5V7V5TIqDN%7Ctkp%3ABFBM-O_qwKVi), especially if you decide to go for LiPo batteries as the tester will check the individual cells.
Bad luck with the speed controller, but we've all been there, one way or another. %)
Happy bimbling!
Greg
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Hi Greg, many thanks will invest in those I think.. :-))
Soooo lets try some pics ... titled them so should be self explanatory ??
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Allen....
The last image...'excessive glue or what' .jpg...appears to be lashings of a polyurethane foaming glue....similar to the Gorilla Glue product....
Fine for use where recommended, just not designed for use with ABS/plastics
Derek
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Don't start that one again Derek. {-)
Regards Ian.
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Oh Oh .. !! not one of those subjects Ian ?? :-)
Truth to tell yes of course that probably what it is Derek, and boy was it a mess, from initially thinking I could get away with a simple breakdown of the model I ended up taking it apart (very carefully) almost completely, it did give me an opportunity to put 'glass' in the window spaces though, there was a lot of filler too, some of which I have had to put back, again carefully and I hope better too .. ??
Well the rest of the bits came today, and Ive got a new speed controller and servo checker on the way too, so in the final stretch as they say, its a long stretch though I think ??
What bits I wasn't able to get online I have either made myself, ie; the glass windshield or whatever it is on the bridge top there .. and in buying some working scale searchlights etc Ive made up fitments for them too .. I wasn't able to find exact size cleats online and I was shy the mast too .. however while at a local model rail club display about a week ago there was someone there with a 3d printer and after having a word with them a few days later I sent them examples of the cleats I removed from the model and after having found measurements for a 1/35 mast online, after rescaling to 1/32 I sent them a picture with the correct (ish) measurements and they have done a good job, visually the mast looks right and when all together will be proportionate to the boat.
Still on with painting at present, deck and structures are done, as is the hull, just got the red waterline to do and also have to add the beading (I dont know its correct name %) ) that runs stem to stern along the hull .. will take some pics later and add for those interested ..
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A couple of other forums Im on, click attach, lets me choose from my PC and then upload .. as I say though, clicking on upload image (green box) and it brings up a log in box, to what I dont know as Im already logged in of course .. then when I try and put log in details in it says wrong combination of name and p'word ... mods please .. or someone ..
Im not a fan of clouds etc, nothing simpler than adding from your own pic locations I feel .. but then Im old school and sometimes think that depending how it is set up, technology makes things harder not simpler .. ??
This forum let you load from your images, dead easy saves ffafing around with links and images are there straight away
Bob
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Hi Bob
Yes figured it out, I was trying to load by clicking the green box bottom left there above smilies .. hadn't noticed the 'attachments and other options' link .. !
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Hi Bob
Yes figured it out, I was trying to load by clicking the green box bottom left there above smilies .. hadn't noticed the 'attachments and other options' link .. !
Allen well done.
Bob
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Thanks, have to fess up though I was steered in the right direction a little .. !!
A quick update .. concentrating a little on the upper structures, pictures tell the story, the electric leads are for lights fitted in the two cabins and the searchlight, all a little rough finished at present but as the title says .. getting there .. maybe..??
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OK ... a quick question re; Pictures ... when I was 'steered in the right direction' as to how to post them I thought I was told the maximum size was 300 pixels, which is why my pics look small, but in looking at other topics and pictures on them I see some of them are quite big and more visible, so what is the max size picture that can be posted please ..??
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Allen A,
It's a really nice boat model if assembled suitably for RC conversion use. :-)) :-))
I have ever built the same boat a year before, which building steps were posted far below in this column in detail.
One point I should say for your safe run on the water in the future is power system.
You had better replace the reduction gear made by plastics for twin screws props with other methods.
This is a fast running model boat that will require high RPM with a motor and the plastic-made gears will surely
go damaged fatally on the water. Yes, she will stop on the water and drift away far away by the wind unless an adequate
rescue is made quickly. <:( <:(
My PT-109 is running well enough at 7.4V with twin 540 standard Mabuchi motors water cooled. :-))
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That look s nice .. thank you ...
Truth to tell the purist in me would like to 'put it right' ... but as I said in my initial post, you get what you pay for and in reality I did get a bit of a lemon I think, not something that cant be fixed witness the fact I'm having a go at it, and of course it is a learning curve too, but the way the motor, screw and rudder has been fitted as a single motor system doesn't leave a lot of room for restoring to a twin engine drive, looks like he has actually drilled a hole where there wasn't/shouldn't be one to fit the single motor and shaft .. the two attached pics being somewhat self explanatory perhaps .. ?
I take your point on the plastic gearing etc and will keep an eye on it, my first outings and test run will be in small and easily accessible area should I need to make a rescue attempt ok2
I bit the bullet a bit and yesterday bought an as new, boxed Italeri 1/35 version, basically it came with two books on PT boats that I wanted but the seller wouldn't split them, I was going to sell the kit on, but as I say this re-build ( I wont say restoration) I'm attempting is a learning curve so may well keep and build the new one as it should be and with twin motor drive .. watch this space as they say !
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These two pics are large and clear enough to show how present conditions are.! O0
And a single motor drive system I think is much better than twin screw system to use kit-furnished plastic gears
in the original Lindberg style in terms of secure sailing. O0
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Advice please people ..
I got the new speed controller today and have fitted it, (carefully and with no bare wires around) Got power sorted and motor into Ch 2 on the receiver which corresponds to the up and down movement on right hand self centering control stick on the transmitter for forward and reverse .. but .. no matter what channel I plug the servo into I am getting no response at all to left/right movement on right hand stick and none at all on left hand stick ..... also got the servo tester today BTW and have tested the servo and it is working .. soooo .. what am I doing wrong please .. ??
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OK ... a quick question re; Pictures ... when I was 'steered in the right direction' as to how to post them I thought I was told the maximum size was 300 pixels, which is why my pics look small, but in looking at other topics and pictures on them I see some of them are quite big and more visible, so what is the max size picture that can be posted please ..??
I think the restriction on attached images is 1Megabyte filesize. Forum software can automatically resize the default view to around 900pixel width until the attached image is clicked.
I think there is a forum help board devoted to images and posts.
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Try plugging your speed controller into the channel you want to use for the servo and see what happens. If it doesn't respond then could be a transmitter fault. Also, even though you've tested the servo, try it in the channel for your speed controller as a double check it's ok.
Ralph
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Advice please people ..
I got the new speed controller today and have fitted it, (carefully and with no bare wires around) Got power sorted and motor into Ch 2 on the receiver which corresponds to the up and down movement on right hand self centering control stick on the transmitter for forward and reverse .. but .. no matter what channel I plug the servo into I am getting no response at all to left/right movement on right hand stick and none at all on left hand stick ..... also got the servo tester today BTW and have tested the servo and it is working .. soooo .. what am I doing wrong please .. ??
Check orientation of the plugs.
After Ralph's checklist passes every thing but yet nothing moves then further investigation steps are below.
Some servos expect a high pulse height of half the supply voltage (cmos switching level).
A mini scope or even a voltmeter can check the channel pulses with respect to 0 volt level.
Things like this merit a separate thread and it isolates the tech info for many more experienced rc troubleshooters who have subscribed to new thread alert emails.
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Check orientation of the plugs.
After Ralph's checklist passes every thing but yet nothing moves then further investigation steps are below.
Some servos expect a high pulse height of half the supply voltage (cmos switching level).
A mini scope or even a voltmeter can check the channel pulses with respect to 0 volt level.
Things like this merit a separate thread and it isolates the tech info for many more experienced rc troubleshooters who have subscribed to new thread alert emails.
If mods or whoever want to transfer this to a specific page Im ok with that ..
To answer here though for the time being as an absolute amateur in RC (OK so I managed to figure out my 1/6 jeep but that came all set up) some of what you are saying is a bit beyond me, don't get me wrong I'm not totally dumb and can usually figure things out after a while but this is beginning to bug me frankly ..
Step by step then ..
The battery connections on the speed controller are pretty straight forward as are the connections to the motor, the on/of switch is fool proof and that then leaves the lead from the speed controller to the receiver ... and Im wondering if this is where I'm going wrong ... as I said in order to get the right hand self center stick to operate the motor forward and back Ive found it needs to be in channel 2 on the receiver .... but the thought has occurred though should that go to the battery terminal on the receiver as in a 'battery (power)' in scenario ..??
With the speed control lead in CH 2 as I say I have placed the servo lead into the other channels in turn but get no response at all on either stick .. I can also get lights to work from input to the various channels too so power would seem to be getting somewhere ... I hadn't considered a transmitter fault, could be a Monday/Friday one perhaps and instinct is balking a little that the transmitter/receiver are in essence it seems mainly built for a/c to a degree so left to wonder if that has anything to do with it.
Trying to read up on it, checking online for possible compatibility issues with the servo, (Futaba S3003) the new t/r (SkyFly FS-14X/FS-A6) are apparently digital but the servo isnt I think, so again wondering if that could be an issue ??
Ive put it all down for the time being as I'm finishing painting the hull and will I think take it to Model Sport in Otley when they open on Wednesday, but in the meantime if anything Ive just said shines a light to anyone, please let me know .. erm .. in simple terms please ! :-)) :}2
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HI Allen has your R/C T/X got a fail safe in it ? as its on my r/c its on the left hand stick an from what you have said on how you have wired it up it should all work ok if not then do take it to your model sport shop an ask them about where an if you have a fail safe channel an if there is a problem with the R/C set an is your ESC a BEEC if so the lead from the ESC should go to cha 3 in your R/X AS this should be your throttle power lead an work the FAIL SAFE if your set has it but if your ESC is Beec THEN DONT PLUG it into the batt as damage may occur to the R/X THE LEAD SHOULD PLUG INTO CHA 3 BUT TALK to the exsperts at your model sport shop first before you do anything
chrisb
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Trying to read up on it, checking online for possible compatibility issues with the servo, (Futaba S3003) the new t/r (SkyFly FS-14X/FS-A6) are apparently digital but the servo isnt I think, so again wondering if that could be an issue ??
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A clever computerised radio should have a menu option to switch to the 1980s ~50Hz pwm on its receiver outputs if it's mentioned in the instructions.
Your receiver (https://www.modelsport.co.uk/product/flysky-fs-14x-6ch-24ghz-receiver-1348313) has 6 pwm and no RSSI so a transmitter should be set accordingly to 50Hz pwm
A radio failsafe should already be picked up by Ralph's simple first-step checks and a servo held in position will offer resistance to you trying to move the arm.
If you want information on what you can diagnose with a voltmeter I have listed it below, step by step.
It picks up a receiver outputting a failsafe pulse and also a radio set to SERIAL or FAST rate .
A battery powered voltage scope is a gold standard diagnostic tool and take you directly to the root of many problems you can't see or make sense of. A digital multimeter is the next best thing and probably ahead of a servo tester in your toolbox priority list.
The voltmeter check explained
In voltmeter mode you should pick up the voltage sweeping from 0.2 to 0.4 volts as you move the corresponding transmitter stick.
Spectrum at 100Hz would double the readings.
300Hz (HEC) shows as a sixfold increase in voltage and the analogue servo doesn't like that.
Further background information:
True analogue servos differ only that they use analogue timing components in capacitors and resistors and not quartz crystals . They take digital inputs. The older analogue timing method is frequency dependant which was not designed in the 60s to cope at 300Hz (HEC) rate which enables a faster response time in a servo design
An S3003 servo will cope with Spektrum's 100Hz rate. It is not recommended to operate analogue servos at a 300Hz rate but there should be an obvious sign. S3003 and other Futaba servos are designed to handle lower 2 volt signal pulses so that wasn't ever a problem. Hitec & other no-name asian and aftermarket brands like Fleet used cmos input level chips so recommend a minimum 3 volt. It's those brands that don't work with some radios if you use 5 cell NiMH or Alkaline receiver packs.
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Gentlemen thank you ...
HMS Invincible, some of your speak is a bit greek to me if I'm honest, :o But I will read it carefully again what you have said and apply it to my attempts at setting it all up right.
Chris, Not one to sit still and not try to help myself I have been looking around more and downloaded the manual for the transmitter/receiver combo .. I have set it to AFHDS 2A that being the recommended setting for the A6 receiver, not sure if that was it and wont until later today when the hull paint has dried enough for me to check it again, thanks for the tip re receiver plug in channel too, the manual shows it going into the Batt channel but will try Ch 3 as you suggest
Re Failsafe, Im not sure so will do more reading and researching, .... .the thing is with the manual it is all geared to a/c use and so hard to translate into a boat use scenario and there is nothing in it about a Failsafe .. ??
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WELL Allen 2 Qeustions from me is your ESC a Beec one ?
an
AN IS YOUR R/C a new one or an old one ? as if new then you should have instructions booklet with it but if an old one then maybe no fail safe is built in an ask at model sport
chrisb
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HMS Invincible, some of your speak is a bit greek to me if I'm honest, :o But I will read it carefully again what you have said and apply it to my attempts at setting it all up right.
That's what I think about aircraft radios, their instructions with all the brand specific acronyms you will soon see.
Nowadays legacy standards that made equipment work universally has gone out the window. What you get are escs that can tell a receiver (my chosen phrase) to switch to serial mode if its plugged in and switched on in sequence and other complications.
Ralph's simple "swap plugs around and observe" was enough to get to the root of your problem before their introduction.
It still goes a long way but I can't see or remember what the outcome was.
The next in the list is a voltmeter check which boils down to "stick a meter on the output" if it doesn't change between 0.2 to 0.4 volt as you waggle the stick no wonder you have problems!
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Well I just spent the last hour or more 'playing' again but with no luck ..
Re; the servo, weird thing is if I put an adapter lead into receiver, any position it seems, then plug that into the servo tester and plug the servo lead into the tester I get power and can test the servo and it works, but if I plug the servo direct into the receiver, any channel, nothing at all ??
Also Ive found that Ch 1 on the receiver gives me motor power on the left hand stick on a left/right (self return) setting, Ch 2 gives me motor power on the right hand stick up/down (self return) setting, Ch 3 though gives me motor power on the left hand stick up/down but with no self return, very difficult to set stop accurately.. !
Re; Voltmeter, Sorry about this, but can you talk me though setting it up ABC 123 please, I have one and can set up to check ohms and battery power etc but that's about it, what setting do I need to put on it and what output do I connect to for the reading check ..
Im beginning to wonder if the T/R combo is a new one or something someone has returned as whereas I have not had the receiver fitted in any way there are wear marks to it, the box wasn't sealed, not sure if it should have been and of course as I said, there were no manuals or instructions in the box .. definitely a trip to ModelSport tomorrow .. !!
Thanks for the advice help and patience folks .. :-))
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Well I just spent the last hour or more 'playing' again but with no luck ..
Re; the servo, weird thing is if I put an adapter lead into receiver, any position it seems, then plug that into the servo tester and plug the servo lead into the tester I get power and can test the servo and it works, but if I plug the servo direct into the receiver, any channel, nothing at all ??
Also Ive found that Ch 1 on the receiver gives me motor power on the left hand stick on a left/right (self return) setting, Ch 2 gives me motor power on the right hand stick up/down (self return) setting, Ch 3 though gives me motor power on the left hand stick up/down but with no self return, very difficult to set stop accurately.. !
That is what I tentatively expected and it narrows it down with useful information that Ralph and myself were after to confirm the servo works, the transmitter and receiver works, the speed control works and the receiver isn't in failsafe. You are going in the right direction.
The esc model matters & Internet based info can further narrow down the problem by eliminating possibilities I've alluded to. There are instances where a speed control can pick up a receiver signal where the servo can't for two reasons that I know of and you might identify before a trip to the shop.
Before speculating further, are you saying when you add the servo tester into the circuit and the servo moves do you mean the servo tester is Y-leaded with the servo and both servo and tester take a position signal from the receiver or do you mean the servo connects to the tester output?
If it's the former no wonder it is confusing the hell out of you but you found the problem, there's a solution and I referred to the issue in my earlier reply.
I suggest clarify the above that but only play with the voltmeter so far as to set it to dc volts up to 20 and say if you can safely make connections to take readings from the receiver without shorting pins together.
Re; Voltmeter, Sorry about this, but can you talk me though setting it up ABC 123 please, I have one and can set up to check ohms and battery power etc but that's about it, what setting do I need to put on it and what output do I connect to for the reading check ..
Im beginning to wonder if the T/R combo is a new one or something someone has returned as whereas I have not had the receiver fitted in any way there are wear marks to it, the box wasn't sealed, not sure if it should have been and of course as I said, there were no manuals or instructions in the box .. definitely a trip to ModelSport tomorrow .. !!
Thanks for the advice help and patience folks .. :-))
It should be online.
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WELL Allen 2 Qeustions from me is your ESC a Beec one ?
an
AN IS YOUR R/C a new one or an old one ? as if new then you should have instructions booklet with it but if an old one then maybe no fail safe is built in an ask at model sport
chrisb
WELL Allen you dint answer my two qeustions ?
chrisb
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:-) ... Hi Chris, sorry, do miss stuff sometimes and I may show as online but thats because I never shut a forum down until I switch PC off, but it doesn't mean I'm at the PC 24/7 ..[size=78%] [/size] ok2
I have been working at trying to figure the problem out and doing other things, just sat down with a coffee and saw your message ..
My ESC is a Mtronics Viper Marine 15 and is new, the transmitter/receiver, I take it you meant that by R/C , is new but as I said it didnt come with a manual and is apparently more suited to a/c. I downloaded it so I could read and see what I needed to do, its where and why I made sure it was set to AFHDS 2A as per manual instructions, there is no info in it about boats, all geared to a/c as I say.
Salvation may be at hand, had contact from someone local and they have invited me over to theirs with my stuff to check it out for me, trip to Modelsport on hold then ..
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You've got the choice of four channels and the esc worked on the others so I don't see how a failsafe is a factor in the problem.
The esc model works on pwm and not these fancy aircraft sBUS modes. If the radio was set to 300Hz pwm the esc servo would still work (badly) but the servo wouldn't completely stop.
I'm still unclear from your earlier post if you took moved the servo under control of the transmitter stick when you added the tester into the circuit or you operated a rotary knob on the tester or whether the tester's presence is just making the servo spring into life as it normally should by adding a load or buffering/smoothing he bec voltage.
Made an edited correction after ROB47 posted
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:-) ... Hi Chris, sorry, do miss stuff sometimes and I may show as online but thats because I never shut a forum down until I switch PC off, but it doesn't mean I'm at the PC 24/7 .. ok2
I have been working at trying to figure the problem out and doing other things, just sat down with a coffee and saw your message ..
My ESC is a Mtronics Viper Marine 15 and is new, the transmitter/receiver, I take it you meant that by R/C , is new but as I said it didnt come with a manual and is apparently more suited to a/c. I downloaded it so I could read and see what I needed to do, its where and why I made sure it was set to AFHDS 2A as per manual instructions, there is no info in it about boats, all geared to a/c as I say.
Hi Allen if you are using mtroniks viper 15 then yes it has bec as do most modern esc, as for failsafe on all my flysky sets i have the option to set up failsafe, as far as I know its not set on one channel as you may not want it on that, I can set it on any channel that I want so most useful. Sounds as if you might be getting there at last
Bob
Salvation may be at hand, had contact from someone local and they have invited me over to theirs with my stuff to check it out for me, trip to Modelsport on hold then ..
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HI Allen now bob has said all that i asked you sir in his post
Hi Allen if you are using mtroniks viper 15 then yes it has bec as do most modern esc, as for failsafe on all my flysky sets i have the option to set up failsafe, as far as I know its not set on one channel as you may not want it on that, I can set it on any channel that I want so most useful. Sounds as if you might be getting there at last[/size]
an as your ESC is becc THEN DONT fit the esc power lead to your batt plug in your receivver or u may damage it fit the power lead in cha 2 or 3 where you want the throttle but has your T/X GOT a ratchet on the left stick ? as that where its best so you can control the throttle easy an ive only heard of havin failsafe on cha 3 but as your r/c tramsmitter is for A/C IT MAY HAVE f/s on other cha but yes go see that gent an get things sorted but im wondering if the r/c is new as you should have had some instrucuions with it
good luck an hope you get it sorted
chrisb
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Just to point out that plugging a BEC ESC into the battery port on the receiver will not damage it. However as there is no signal connection to the battery socket the ESC will not work although the receiver will be powered up. Many receivers with at least 8 channels use one of the sockets as both battery power and servo, a y lead allowes both to be connected at the same time. In fact all of the receiver sockets can be used to connect a battery or ESC to provide power as the positive and negative are all conected internally. Plugging the lead in reversed will also not cause damage with the present standard of the positive in the center so that reversing the connections just swaps the signal and ground which doesn't harm the receiver although it will not of course power up.
Jim
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By way of an update
Todays visit was a success, and I must admit to feeling a little foolish as in simple terms I had the connectors the wrong way around .. now I am aware of polarity issues and did switch the connectors around but in pairs and not individually, consequently of course there was still a polarity issue not surprisingly, the help and advice given here was much appreciated but it is one thing to have something you know nothing about explained in written form, but another of course when and where a hands on approach is given, as it was today, my grateful thanks to Stan for patiently showing and explaining things to me.
There was rudder issue to in as much as it was binding a little, it seems the guy who built it hadn't aligned the servo and rudder bar correctly and the connecting bar was causing a small binding when operated, I managed to fix that when I got home having had it explained to me what I needed to do.
In short may I present to you the finished product, what I like to call a rescue repair, well nearly finished as I have some touching up to do but have run out of the paint color I need, also as I didn't smooth down the hull before I painted it the masking tape didn't it seems go down flat and I have a small paint run issue to sort out too..
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Hhmmm Im beginning to wonder if I did anything wrong .. apart from the silly mistake with the electrics that is .. don't get me wrong, not looking for compliments or whatever but perhaps thought there might be some observational comment or constructive critique ... ??
Im happy with what Ive done as a first time boat project, not up to the high standard that's out there I know, but then again as Clint Eastwood once said in one of his films .. a mans got to know his limitations .. and I know mine .. and as I like to put it .. I do the best I can with what haven't got :-)
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Hhmmm Im beginning to wonder if I did anything wrong .. apart from the silly mistake with the electrics that is .. don't get me wrong, not looking for compliments or whatever but perhaps thought there might be some observational comment or constructive critique ... ??
Im happy with what Ive done as a first time boat project, not up to the high standard that's out there I know, but then again as Clint Eastwood once said in one of his films .. a mans got to know his limitations .. and I know mine .. and as I like to put it .. I do the best I can with what haven't got :-)
You obviously took in the the point about picture filesize limit and hit the mark when comparing hands on versus written instructions. Next you solicit feedback.
I think you also see the worth of a photo on the forum so I'll critique your wiring. Make the esc's yellow/blue a twisted pair and do the same to its 16 gauge red/black pair to minimise self inductance.
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Alan.......in the image of the 'current power layout'.....we see a universal joint between the motor and the prop-shaft, however whilst the motor appears to be square to the hull cut-out, it is clearly out of alignment with the prop-shaft
You will find when the alignment is corrected, less noise, higher shaft speed and more importantly lower current draw which will lengthen running time :-))
Derek
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I'm sorry .. whose 'soliciting feedback' ?? .... merely though there may have been a constructive comment or two is all, sorry you apparently don't have time for that or for newbies, or think you need to encourage them .... as for the pictures etc, as I said in an earlier post I simply made the mistake of trying to load them from the wrong link .. !!
Derek, thank you .. yes I'm, aware of that and have tried to straighten it, not to make excuses but as I have said the guy who 'built' this in the first place made a right hash of it and its been a bit of a challenge to reverse a lot of it .., I am going to change the coupling for a universal joint type, I have bought a lower power battery which is smaller and fits to the rear and should I think bring the bow up a little as she sits bow down a little with the battery as it is in my power layout pic.
Finally got the 'action crew' and finished painting them today, I'm hoping to be able to sail her at her weekend .. ?
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Your term is observational comment or constructive critique and my shortform version is "soliciting feedback".
I think it is inciteful and guessed you have management training.
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Actually all I was wondering is if I had done anything 'wrong' or could have done something simpler or better in the rescue and rebuild of this boat .. and as a newbie to this particular subject was perhaps expecting comment along those lines and which is why I posted as I did .. you obviously have a lot of knowledge going by the info you gave in answer to my elecs. query, but it seems sometime the more knowledge some people have the less they can impart it down to the level of someone less knowledgeable, and despite being grateful I'm sorry but some of what you said, given my lack of understanding of RC, was over my head and didn't really help .. conversely in less than 5 minutes and in being shown and having it explained hands on and in simpler terms it made sense.
No, no 'management training' just common sense and a desire to learn and one way of learning is from comments on the completion of project the details of which have been submitted for that purpose ..
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Alan, thanks to today's headlong dive into the realms of micro electronics with everything, unless you have a degree in electronic teknowleggy, stupidity and arrogance trump your attribute of common sense. Remember when you needed a seven year old to set a VHS video recorder? Wonder how many Golfers used the multi speed recording facilities of some video cameras?
Unfortunately, the one size fits all attitude of most R/C manufacturers can leave some boaties in a cornfield of cr-p on inter connections as each company does its own thing with wiring. Weeds and chaff abound but don't despair, some are on the same frequency as you, recognition doesn't take long.
Regards Ian. :-))
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Just to add to Derek's note about alignment between the motor and the propshaft, I don't know whether you've seen one of these but they are rather useful and if you then mount the motor in place with something like silicone sealant, rather than screws, you can just let it set while the alignment tool is in place and then just replace it with the u/j.
https://www.modelboatbits.com/UNIVERSAL-ALIGNMENT-TOOL
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My thanks to all for the comments and tips, I have info that the 'dog-bone' type of connector works well at angles and in fact doing some work on my 1/6 jeep last night I noticed that the main connector there for the 4WD is a semi 'dog-bone' type and well offset too and that does run well I have to admit, so I may leave well enough alone for now, or at least until the boat has had its first outing, not to say 'shake down cruise' before making any changes .. ;) :-)
Well .. its as finished as I think I want to take it, just the waterline painting to neaten up and I may well add some small deck dressings as and when I can find them, life jackets, rope coils etc etc .. but for now I have added the crew, painted one of them to look like an Officer, (chose him as he had some binocs. in his hand) .. what :}2 ... and also used a little bit of imagination in placing the other crew members, so at the risk of 'soliciting feedback' here she is ...
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HI Aleen well she looks good love the crew figs as these bring a model to life an it dont look static well done an i hope your first shake down criuse goes better than my tiger's did
lovely model
atb
chrisb :-))
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Thanks .. soooo ... as a prelude to actually sailing her under power, I thought I would do the next (or first) best thing and do a float test ... and she seems to sit with an even keel and trim, also in getting a smaller battery and being able to place it to the rear of the motor instead of in front as the other larger battery was, it has bought the nose up a little to a more realistic stance I think .... I don't really know from boats but it looks right to me ..??
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Been a while but still here and still working on things ... I got the one in this topic where I want it and it runs well, made a couple of changes in that I hid the on/off switch and added lights where I could, mast, searchlight nav. lights etc .. thing being I got another one that had been started, not overly so but it was all there and had twin motors/rudders whereas the original had been somewhat botched to a single motor and rudder.
Anyway completed it but have a problem, whereas it will run in fwd and reverse on its stand, it wont on water, runs forward OK, but also runs fwd when reverse command is applied .. and its puzzling to say the least so wondering if anyone has any ideas please ... the transmitter is a Hobby King HK-T4A V2 and the ESC a Hobby wing quick run 1060 ... a pic of the motor etc layout is attached ..
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Here's the on/off switch ... now you see it ... now you dont ... ;)
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Hi Allen A,
To begin with, please allow me to post many pics in your thread of the PT boat.
I am putting the pics here taken in my crucial experience to cope with water leakage generated in a PT boat-like speed run
on the lake, expecting to be of some reference for your future test run. The Lindberg kit of this boat might have been intended
for use on the pond like water at slow speed, judging from the design and construction put into market so many years ago. O0
You are ready to start the test run on the water (pond?)which will be comparatively easy to go.
But if you should intend to get her to run at a PT boat like speed on the water (large pond or lake) in the future, intensive
countermeasures against water leakage may be required from my own experience. Unless you do that, your boat will disappear
on the water at worst case... <:( {:-{ My PT-109 is 1/32 Lindberg make and yours look the same...
1/2/3/;Around the detachable deck must be processed against the leakage. A Pt boat is so low a freeboard.!!
I later applied very thin coat of so-called bath-cork around the deck by which leakage could be almost shut it out.
I also used some magnets to get the deck to fit better.
4/5/6;Switch was processed as seen in the pics. using rubber inside the deck and some grease was filled in the tiny space.
7; My PT-109 has been sailing like the real one on our local lake with no problem currently. a bit too fast....for a scale model {-)
Needless to say, both stern-tubes were also filled with grease completely.
Take care of motor cooling as well if you should get her to run fast.!!
The ESC is to be set a bit higher level lest it should be wet for possible leakage.
Hope your successful shake-down run. !! :-)) :-))
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I don't mind at all and thanks for the tips ... I have two of these at present, one of them being the original one I started this topic about and that is more or less as I want it and sails well although in as much as the only open water close to me is a canal, I haven't taken to full speed as yet but it leaves a decent wake I think?
The other is the one I'm having problems with, as although 'finished' to a point and sails too, it is not smooth and as I say, the problem is that although on a stand thee motors respond to a fwd and reverse command from the transmitter, when on the water it goes forward in reverse too ... I know weird .... Im wondering if I set the ESC right ??
Pics attached are of the original underway and the two of them together, the original one being closest to the bank ..
Nice shot of yours at speed ... hoping to get there with mine ...
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Err, don't forget the 4mph speed limit on the canal Allen O0
Regards Ian.
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Hi Ian .. {-) {-) .. good point ... not much chance of that though as conditions weren't ideal, a bit windy and a bit of a swell, plus I cant seem to get the turn of speed I feel should be there ..?
Im beginning to realise there is more to RC than meets the eye, not that simple a thing to master, oh I can build them OK, even 'dress them up' a little for effect but on the power side of things I am a complete novice and am left to wonder if I've got things set up right.. The transmitter is a FlySky FS-14X, the receiver a FlySky FS-A6 with a Viper Marine 15 ESC, all powered by a 2900mah, 11.1 volt Lipo battery. The motor is a large 12volt one, sorry cant read the make due to how its mounted, I'm also left wondering if these boats need some ballast as it can wallow a little in a turn .. any help advice will be gratefully received :-)
A picture from another test sail yesterday, sorry about the quality but my D800 didn't seem to like the 28-80 lens I was using .. ???
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Hi Allen A,
Sorry again to post many pics on here.
I'd like to show you here my set-up of 1/32 Lindberg PT-109 just for reference focusing on your embarrassment in the test run of the boat.
1/2; As for ballast, no special ballast required and a heavy battery will do instead if installed as low as possible as seen in the pics.
In my boat,2S 5000mAh lipo has been doing so nice a job as seen in the video below. :-)) The motors are Mabuchi 540s.
3; Maximum rudder throw is as this level which has been rarely used in normal sailing (at speed) for safety.
Wallowing may posssibly take place at low speed with low draft...?? Even my boat wallows at starting stage, see my video.
You possibly had better install a heavier battery like mine instead of so-called ballast....This boat is generally light and a heavier battery will work effectively as a good ballast. 3S/5000mAh is generally 100g heavier than 2S/5000mAh which difference will be helpful for better ballast. O0
4; The battery is doing a good ballast set at lower position. :-))
5/6; Recently I am using 4 pieces of screws to get an ultimate water-proof effect. Thanks to this, even a teardrop of water is not found inside the hull.
With the content of video below, I judged this boat as complete as a scale serviceable model PT boat on the lake %% :-))
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7QKh8ptwj0&t=21s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7QKh8ptwj0&t=21s)
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Hi again, and thanks again, that looks a neat layout you have inside the boat .. should perhaps try tidying mine up a bit ?
A thought has occurred to me here, in fitting lights to my model and powering them from the receiver channels, would that effect the power output at all .. ?? (pics attached to show the effect) and I know that in WWII the lights wouldn't have been used much but they would have been able to turn them on and off as necessary I'm sure and it makes the model a little more realistically complete for me. other pics attached are to show the overall finish of this one, the on/off switch being hidden under the small box between the Oerlikon lockers .
Watched the video ... yes that's the way I feel mine should be running .. and Im glad to say mine is dry inside too !!
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Thanks for many interesting pics of your PT boat.! :-))
Hiding a switch is ideal and you did a very nice work on this point as well as lighting gimmic. The lighting in the dark is generating special atmosphere and may be enjoyable if seen actually in the room or at the water front?
Basically, I don't intend to set a lighting gimmic on my boat models as my principal purpose to build them is just to sail them on the water in the daytime only, not in the night nor evening when is nearly dangerous and impossible to operate on the water.
If I should build a static model ship/boat, a lighting system must be set preferentially. O0
My primary interest in the Rc model ship/boat is just how I should build a Secure , Safe and Scale like run/movement on the water in the daytime. O0 If possible, Silent characteristic is additionally important when sailing on this local lake. O0
I am required to seek for this "4S"models to sail as far as on this lake.... {:-{
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Im beginning to realise there is more to RC than meets the eye, not that simple a thing to master, oh I can build them OK, even 'dress them up' a little for effect but on the power side of things I am a complete novice and am left to wonder if I've got things set up right.. The transmitter is a FlySky FS-14X, the receiver a FlySky FS-A6 with a Viper Marine 15 ESC, all powered by a 2900mah, 11.1 volt Lipo battery. The motor is a large 12volt one, sorry cant read the make due to how its mounted, I'm also left wondering if these boats need some ballast as it can wallow a little in a turn .. any help advice will be gratefully received :-)
...............................
Your problem is a lack of speed? Then the Tx and the ESC are probably not an issue. It will most likely be your power train.
1 - Is the battery putting out a good amount of power? If it's a LiPo it should be, Unless something is wrong with it.
2 - Cables. If you have a very thin motor cable it can't carry the power needed and will just get hot. I suspect yours is OK...?
3 - Your 12v motor. What does it rev at? Not all '12v motors' are the same - they can be designed for all sorts of jobs. A 12v motor driving a turntable is not going to put out the power to drive a 30" hull (though it will be nice and quiet and very stable...)
4 - The coupling and prop-shaft. Do they turn freely? A prop-shaft full of grease can stop a motor with its drag. 5 - And sometimes the most important - the prop. Changing a prop can make a huge difference to a boat's performance. Lots of people have several different ones to try them out for best results...
P.S. While I don't think it's your ESC/TX, you can easily test this by hooking the motor up directly to the battery and confirming that full power from the ESC and full power connected directly sound about the same...
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The lighting in the dark is generating special atmosphere and may be enjoyable if seen actually in the room or at the water front?
Basically, I don't intend to set a lighting gimmic on my boat models as my principal purpose to build them is just to sail them on the water in the daytime only, not in the night nor evening when is nearly dangerous and impossible to operate on the water.
Hi, if I can start this reply by saying I am also a living history re-enactor, (complete with all that that entails), you may understand where I'm coming from with the lights for one thing, I don't see them as a 'gimmick', the reality being that these boats had them and for me to include them is part of trying to realistically recreate these historic boats in miniature as we do. Ultimately (if I can that is) I would like to be able to switch the lights on and off from the transmitter, and yes of course from a safety aspect I wouldn't sail it at night, but .. think of the effect at twilight on a summer evening or even at early dusk in winter .. ?? :-)
Research is a great thing and I have bought some books on PT Boats and researched them a fair bit since having the original and now the second one too, a fact being that in reality the only time they probably all looked alike was when they left the shipyards where they were built, the truth being they were heavily modified, not to say 'personalised' by the Capt. and crew to suit their location and effectiveness in their duties and in that respect no two boats were ever the same I think, and that's something that to a degree gives us carte blanche perhaps in modelling this particular type of boat, but within reason and historic bounds of course, and this is also why I stated 'not 109' in my title as I wanted to make a somewhat generic PT boat, and that's why also I haven't numbered it, however in as much as some were named, that's a thought I still have in mind ??
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Your problem is a lack of speed? Then the Tx and the ESC are probably not an issue. It will most likely be your power train.
1 - Is the battery putting out a good amount of power? If it's a LiPo it should be, Unless something is wrong with it.
2 - Cables. If you have a very thin motor cable it can't carry the power needed and will just get hot. I suspect yours is OK...?
3 - Your 12v motor. What does it rev at? Not all '12v motors' are the same - they can be designed for all sorts of jobs. A 12v motor driving a turntable is not going to put out the power to drive a 30" hull (though it will be nice and quiet and very stable...)
4 - The coupling and prop-shaft. Do they turn freely? A prop-shaft full of grease can stop a motor with its drag. 5 - And sometimes the most important - the prop. Changing a prop can make a huge difference to a boat's performance. Lots of people have several different ones to try them out for best results...
P.S. While I don't think it's your ESC/TX, you can easily test this by hooking the motor up directly to the battery and confirming that full power from the ESC and full power connected directly sound about the same...
Hi, thanks for the reply and advice and to answer your points one by one
1) I think the batteries are fine, bought as new and are both Lipo 2900 mah 11.1 volt 3S types, I also have a Lipo 2200mah 7.4v 2s as a spare and don't have a problem with them on the face of it all.
2) The only cables I have 'played with' are the ones I fitted to power the lighting, all others are as supplied with ESC etc and have never felt warm.
3) Now the motor, this is a replacement as my very first run with the boat was in a fish pond with lots of reeds, yes you guessed it jammed prop, burnt out motor. I have no idea what the motor is as there are no markings on it at all and I don't have the box, but I am beginning to suspect this may be part if not all of the problem ... and wondering if you can suggest what power (amp wise) motor would be suitable for the ESC/TX and batteries combo in order to get a semblance of it running as per that video clip for example ?
4) Coupling and prop shaft seem fine, nicely inline but a fraction low in as much as the motor is touching the underside of the upper deck area, but it runs smooth none the less the joint handling the very slight angle well.
5) Not thought about the prop and will take that under advisement ..
However, now a cautionary tale and a slight catastrophe .. The lighting on both boats was powered from different channel connections on the receiver and it trying to work them out I did notice they could affect the motor and/or rudder servo power, this is why I wondered if using the channel outlets for the lights was a good idea .. so today I decided to rewire the lights and plug them into the Batt terminal on the receiver and it worked on the first one (ie the second boat) I did .. thing being when I came to my original, despite extreme care while checking the wiring before soldering, something shorted and I burnt out the ESC .. don't ask .. boy can those things burn .. :o ... luckily there is no other damage, some smoke stains and just burnt out wiring on the ESC .. thing being perhaps a good thing in a way as in repairing I may look at getting another motor as well as the ESC in order to hopefully improve power and performance the way I would like to.
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However, now a cautionary tale and a slight catastrophe .. The lighting on both boats was powered from different channel connections on the receiver and it trying to work them out I did notice they could affect the motor and/or rudder servo power, this is why I wondered if using the channel outlets for the lights was a good idea .. so today I decided to rewire the lights and plug them into the Batt terminal on the receiver and it worked on the first one (ie the second boat)
It doesn't matter which channel you plug them into on the receiver. The positive and negative connections are linked together on the circuit board so all the channels get the same power. The only difference is the battery connection doesn't have a signal output so won't run a servo. In many receivers there is no seperate battery connection and one of the output channels is used for power input, normally the last in the sequence, if needed for a servo a Y lead is used to allow for battery connection. (many 2.4 GHz must have a seperate battery connection as this is used for a binding plug to allow setting it up with the transmitter, one of the other channels is used for the battery while doing this.)
Jim
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.................... I have no idea what the motor is as there are no markings on it at all and I don't have the box, but I am beginning to suspect this may be part if not all of the problem ... and wondering if you can suggest what power (amp wise) motor would be suitable for the ESC/TX and batteries combo in order to get a semblance of it running as per that video clip for example ? .................................
I'm afraid that I'm more used to brushless motors - but I'm sure that you will get no end of advice here in a while! Graupner Speed motors have a very strong following...
It may be hard to model a wide variety of PT Boat variations if you are limited to plastic kits. Perhaps you would like to make up some EeZeBilts? You will find a couple of my PT boats here:
http://eezebilt.tk/PTB10.html (http://eezebilt.tk/PTB10.html)
(I don't seem to be able to post images :( And yes, I know that PT boats didn't have planked decks - but I just liked the effect...)
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It doesn't matter which channel you plug them into on the receiver. The positive and negative connections are linked together on the circuit board so all the channels get the same power. The only difference is the battery connection doesn't have a signal output so won't run a servo.
Jim
Hey Jim, thanks for that, had no idea of the ins and outs of them, just more or less what they did.
I did initially, when I first got it all, plug the ESC into the batt link on the receiver, seemed to be a logical thing to do, and then wondered why I had no throttle power, took a while to figure out but managed to get there, just out of interest I had the throttle command into Ch 3 and the servo into Ch 1 and they seemed to work OK at that, somewhat academic now of course while needing to get a new ESC and perhaps a motor too, and in that respect the original boat is in dry dock for now.
Its back to the No 2 boat, the problem there being that while on face of it it is finished and 'works' when its on the stand ie; the motors spin ok in fwd and reverse from the TX control command, when in the water, although it moves fwd as it should, it also moved forward when the reverse command is activated ... my mind is working sideways on it and Im wondering if the props could be too close to the rudders, or bearing in mind a previous comment of yours, if I need bigger props, so for now getting that sorted is my focus point.
It is also a little slow I feel, the problem being I am probably going to keep the original No 1 boat and sell this one on and whereas I want it to be working right, don't really want to spend excessively on it.
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It may be hard to model a wide variety of PT Boat variations if you are limited to plastic kits. Perhaps you would like to make up some EeZeBilts? You will find a couple of my PT boats here:
http://eezebilt.tk/PTB10.html (http://eezebilt.tk/PTB10.html)
Hi ... I take your point re plastic kits but there are quite a few extras in 1/32 scale out there made in a variety of materials that all lend themselves well I think to accessorising these models, even some parts to replace the plastic parts that come with the kit.
I have cheated a little too in as much as on both boats the torpedoes peeking out of the tubes are Italeri 1/35 scale ones that with a bit of inside modification to the 1/32 scale tubes fit and look well I think, some of the crew too are 1/35 scale. the thing being that not everyone is/was the same height so leeway there for a bit of modelling licence perhaps ?
Whereas I am happy with the Lindberg, I must confess for a liking for the Italeri ones given the extra degree of detail they have and would consider getting one I think if I had more experience in setting up RC, the Lindbergs seemingly lending themselves easier to fit motors and RC gear etc in ??
Pics attached of some of the 1/32 scale extras I bought for the boat ..metal some of them, some resin but all fairly well made too .. also pics of the two torpedo's in the tubes I mentioned, by the way, the man on the wood box is the on/off switch on the No 2 boat :-)
I like the look of the eezibilt I think, and your boats look good too, well done .. :-))
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Those are the old Mk 8 torpedoes in tubes If you have (or can get access to) a 3-D printer, I have drawn up some Mk 13s, complete with launching racks, which are what I use on the EeZeBilts now. I could put the .STL files up on the website for you to download if you want...
I would put some pictures up if I knew how....
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Yes, the Mk 13 aircraft torpedo's started to be used in 1943 .. according to navy legend two PT boat officers came up with the idea of rolling torpedo's off the way they did depth charges only the Mk 8's weren't suitable due to gyro pre-settings etc .. whereas the Mk13's gyro could be and were set and started by hand before they were rolled off..
I don't have access to 3D printing thanks, so will leave these as early type boats but if I do another may have a go at it being a later model .. apparently towards the end of the war a lot of PT boats didn't have torpedo's at all, becoming more or less simply gun boats.
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Perhaps you would like to make up some EeZeBilts? You will find a couple of my PT boats here:
http://eezebilt.tk/PTB10.html (http://eezebilt.tk/PTB10.html)
Hi again ... referring to your pictures in that link, and your comment on one of them about a grill on the engine room intake, they did in fact have something on there as you suggest .. found an original pic from the time that shows this fairly clearly, its attached for your reference .. :-))
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There's certainly something there - what it is, I don't know.... Could it be an opened door?
These drawings are not much help...http://www.pt103.com/Italeri_PT109_Kit.html#enginehatch (http://www.pt103.com/Italeri_PT109_Kit.html#enginehatch)
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looks to me like an opened hatch, hinged along the bottom?
strictly non-mariner me!
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hi there
according to the book Allied Coastal forces written by Mr John Lambert and Mr Al Ross - a line drawing in the book shows the side view and top view and it is described as an engine room hatch vent.
I am surprised Stan the Man hasn't picked up on this thread. Stan built a cracking model of this subject - if I can find some pictures we can put some on. I used his model as a reference for myself, when I built a stand off model using a plan drawn by GG.
MODEL ELCO 80 MADE FROM FREE PLAN (modelboatmayhem.co.uk) (https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,68708.0.html)
John
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Looking at the last image from the link from Dodgy Geezer above .. http://www.pt103.com/images/Italeri_Page_Dwg_Engine_Hatchway_PT187_196__314_367.jpg (http://www.pt103.com/images/Italeri_Page_Dwg_Engine_Hatchway_PT187_196__314_367.jpg) ... think you are right, I overlooked the obvious in trying to find an answer I think ??
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Thanks for that link John .. yes .. what a cracking model, sort of detail I would aspire too, problem being I don't have the skill, as I like to say, I do the best I can with what I haven't got .. :-)
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Sorry to be a pain gents .. wondering if I can come back to the No 2 boat and if there's any thoughts or suggestions about how it goes forward when in reverse command despite the motors reversing as they should .. pics attached of the prop rudder layout if they help .. beats the heck out of me .. ??
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Hi there Allen
Looking at your picture of the boat's internals - speed controller etc. - and googling the make of your speed controller and reading up on the specs and setup, I can see that on the instructions there should be 2 jumper clips - 1 for lipo battery etc., and the other 1 is for the forward brake only backward brake only and then the 3rd is for forwards and backwards with brake,
I have noticed in your photograph that you are only showing 1 jumper lead and that is for the type of battery you have and not for the mode for the speed controller - Could this be your problem of not gaining reverse? or, is is set in the wrong mode somewhere when set up?
John
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:-))
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Hi John .. yes aware of the jumper thing as I took the ESC back to the shop to point out it wasn't there, however they told me it wasn't necessary as in the instructions for straight forward fwd/rev operation the diagram shows no jumper is needed .. ?? pic attached .. also that I maybe didn't set it up right has also crossed my mind ?
The thing is and its a big BUT ... as I say when on the stand and with fwd command on the TX the props spin anti clockwise, and with reverse command from the TX the props spin clockwise ie; in the opposite direction, essentially working as it should .. right .. yet when in the water and in reverse command on the TX it still moves fwd which makes me wonder about prop size or shape and if they could be too close to the rudders as I cant see any reason why that should happen .. ??
Just tried it on the stand again and the props definitely move in two different directions when fwd and reverse commands applied on the TX, cant figure it out at all !!
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Hi there Allen
I still have concerns about your speed controller having just one jumper lead. I have basically the same one, although it doesn't have the capacitor on the outside of mine. It does have twin jumper leads - and I have a picture to show you.
I don't think the motors are overloading the speed controller causing this problem when she is in the water and also you thinking the props too close to the rudders on your model are having some affect. I very very much doubt it. Maybe your speed controller has (shall we say) 100% forward speed and only 75% reverse speed. Then again, even with this, you should obtain some reverse movement.
Couple of things you could try when she is out of the water - try putting a bit of resistance using a piece of balsa wood or an old clothes peg on the coupling of one of the motors when the motor is running in reverse - be careful you don't jam the motor up and see if this has any affect on the opposite motor - sometimes the opposite motor will either speed up or come to a standstill.
Try slowing both motors down together using friction on the couplings to see if it is the speed controller being overloaded.
Or, something else which has just sprung to mind and has caught me out many times with these type of speed controllers / ESCs with the brake fitted - is there is a delay in between forward and reverse - this is to account for the braking affect. This is where the motor just stays stationary for a moment or two.
See how you get on.
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Question ... I took the props off with a view to getting bigger ones and noticed they are not the same, seem to be opposites of each other, could this be what my none reversing problem is about ... should twin props be the same configuration and/or is there a 'left and right' fitting to them ??
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I would expect them to be different and contra rotating
that is one goes clockwise, one goes anti-clockwise so the torque balances out
you need to configure your ESCs so that one turns to the left and t'other turns to the right when commanding forwards
then when you command reverse, they'll both turn the opposite way
and your getting forwards when you ask for reverse because one is going faster than the other, or the ESCs aren't set up the same
hope that make sense
it did in my head before I wrote it!
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Hi Mike .... hmmm .. you say ESC's .. plural, ... do I need one for each motor then and I take it both will bind to the one TX ?
I do understand the concept of contrarotation, a simple fix to me would be to wire one of the motors the other way around so both then rotate as opposites, or is that a no no .... also is there a 'left and right' prop or doesn't it matter which side they go, sorry to be so 'dumb' but a complete novice as I say with this sort of thing .. now .. give me model trains or cameras and Im away .. :-)
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ah no that's me assuming you have two!
wiring both to the same ESC should be ok
just make sure they spin opposite ways
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and as for left and right prop
whichever way you do it, it'll be the other way
but it doesn't matter
I'm guessing you can flip your transmitter so forwards really is forwards
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Success .. (lucky cess .. ok2 ) .... I simply reversed the wiring on the one motor, figured out the correct configuration of the props and violins as the French say ... tested in the bath and I have fwd on fwd command and reverse on reverse command .. many thanks for the help and especially the patience here .. :-))
... and so back to the No 1 boat ... watch this space ... !!
Oh a static shot from late-ish last night testing the No 2 boat again (to no avail at that time of course) ... around 10pm on a quiet and calm canal :-)
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excellent - look forward to seeing it in action!
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If one prop is going forwards and one backwards they will fight each other. The one going backwards will be less efficient, so the one going forwards will win. but the boat will be slow. I would have expected that you would get a turning movement, and would have needed to put lots of trim on...?
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hi there Allen as Dodgy Geezer has just pointed out; with both motors wired up to turn in the same direction and fitted with counter rotating props; the model should have tried to do circular movements, rather than go forward. This is how life size vessels decrease their turning circles. So, if this is the case, and your model was turning in circles rather than going forward or reverse - we may have helped you solve the problem a bit earlier - slight mis-communication between all of us. As long as it is sorted good luck there.
John
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Hi gents .. I do have video of it in action but cant seem to post here ... you are right, both motors were wired to turn the same way and has contrary props, something I hadn't realised until the other day as I assumed them both to be the same configuration .. the thing being whereas it didn't actually run dead straight, it didn't circle either .. just drifted off a little to one side slightly ... have yet to sail it on the canal again but in a test in the bath as I say I had correct fwd and reverse action .. seemed to be a little quicker too but will have to wait until I have more space to confirm that.
Probably right about the mis-communication John, have to hold my hand up there as my fault perhaps due due to my inexperience ... but Im learning .. :-)) :-)
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Allen A,
The static shot in the dark with the lights on is "so brilliant" and looks better than in the daytime..??? Oh, excuse me, sir.!! :o :}
Posting the video is rather difficult for you than to set the model boat right.....the next problem to solve...?
Anyhow, I am also looking forward to seeing the video even though it should require a long time. :-))
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hi there Allen as Dodgy Geezer has just pointed out; with both motors wired up to turn in the same direction and fitted with counter rotating props; the model should have tried to do circular movements, rather than go forward. This is how life size vessels decrease their turning circles. So, if this is the case, and your model was turning in circles rather than going forward or reverse - we may have helped you solve the problem a bit earlier - slight mis-communication between all of us. As long as it is sorted good luck there.
John
I suspect that with a narrow hull and little distance between the two props the turning moment would have been slight, and if the rudders were trimmed for straight running at an early stage it might be hard to notice. The most obvious effect would then be easier turns in one direction rather than the other. But if the boat was travelling slowly it might be hard to even notice this...
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I suspect that with a narrow hull and little distance between the two props the turning moment would have been slight, and if the rudders were trimmed for straight running at an early stage it might be hard to notice. The most obvious effect would then be easier turns in one direction rather than the other. But if the boat was travelling slowly it might be hard to even notice this...
Hi .. you're spot on ... it was a slight drift off movement as you say and yes it did turn one way easier than the other .. it wasn't that slow I think, as although it didn't ride high, it did produce a visible bow wave and engine wake, so hoping for improvement there too .. one other thing, it is ..( was ?) .. a bit noisy, would that be due to the props fighting each other, possibly causing a bit of vibration .?
Hopefully if the weather holds I will sail it again tonight and let you know the results.
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Just for your reference from my experience of operating Rc boats.
The noise will normally be bigger as the boat goes faster on the water which you may know. It would normally and mainly come from motor, construction of a coupling and mis-alignment between the motor shaft and prop shaft.
I don't think the props have something to do with this noise directly since nearly the same set up in my boat with yours has never
caused abnormal noise so far. O0
Wishing you a successful night run, :-))
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Soooooo ... just done a test run with the No 2 boat .. and yes running a bit faster and quieter too .... BUT ... boat started acting a bit strangely, wandering off to one side, turning one way more than the other again and a 'Oh Oh' thought crossed my mind ... yep, lost my s'board prop, unscrewed itself from the shaft .. apart from that it started as a successful test so back to square one in a way and time to order two new props.
On the plus side got a new motor and ESC for the No 1 boat and having fitted them will try a late-ish test sail with it weather permitting this evening ..
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Sometimes, despite all the setback, things can and do fall into place ... the No 1 boat with its new motor and ESC performed well, has a good turn of speed and sits up well at speed too .. frankly it scared the heck out of me being unprepared as I was for the performance it gave and took a little bit of time to get used to the controls on the TX for it.
One thing I have discovered is that you cant film and control a boat at the same time, so a still pic of the No 1 boat lit up for now, but rest assured as soon as I can get my son and/or grandson to join me I will get some video, for now though I am very pleased .. Ive got a PT Boat .. :-)
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Oh, my goodness ! You ,too...and me,too !! stbside prop...
I lost the prop in the latest run. A Pt boat is normally, always sailing fast on the water which I suppose may be one of the
causes to loosen the prop... {:-{ %% We had better have some spare props like a real boat.. O0
Anyhow, congratulations for a good result. :-))
The second pic shows my first PT-109 wandering unstably in the shake-down run made so many years ago.
The boat was not equipped with the bilge-keels while the second equipped as seen in the first pic.
I think this may have worked mainly very well in every aspect of maneuverability on the water...
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Kiyo.......there appears %) to be a prop locknut on the port side prop?....so how >:-o did you did you loose the stdb side prop [with a locknut?].... Derek
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Derek
Sorry to say, I do not understand exactly what you mean with my English reading comprehension ... <:(
I used the lock-nuts on both sides. She returned as it was in the pic.
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Hi Derek, in reversing the polarity of the motor to get correct contra rotation, I think that's what I forgot to do, ie; tighten the lock nut against the prop .. duh .. !!??
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Ever heard of "Gasket Goo?" A touch on the shaft end before screwing the locknut and prop on.
Regards Ian.
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Thread lock ... superglue ..?? ... .. hindsight's a wonderful thing isn't it ;) :-))
In reality though and in having a contrarotation system I would have thought that it would be practical to have the right hand prop and prop shaft fitted with a reverse thread to counter the problem of the prop unscrewing ..??
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Morning Allen.......yes, it is easy sitting back after the event, however my comment was intended only to be a belt & braces thought
Using any Grade of Loctite [even 'Loctite Threadlok'] with a nylon/plastic bodied prop is not a good idea, as even the moderate flame-heat needed to break the Loctite bond will distort the nylon from the brass hub & render the prop useless
Quite a number of Folk, trial different lower cost plastic/nylon props in different sizes/blade numbers, until an optimum size/performance is found, then substitute full brass props of that selected size/style etc
From this, Loctite 'Threadlok' together with a locknut can be used without any concern :-))
Derek
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That's why I said "Gasket Goo". 'Spose it is a mixture of red Lead and oil. When we had the ability to service and repair our own motor bikes and cars, it was a necessity in the toolbox. Ahhhh, the good old days.
Regards Ian.
PS. Allen, my Sea Hornet used to go a bit quicker than 4mph on my dinner time forays as an apprentice at Andertons. ;)
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I see from your picture that you have two locknuts on your shaft, followed by a prop. Are you tightening one locknut against another? You would normally have one locknut, and tighten it against the prop, to hold the prop securely on the shaft.
If you run a motor with standard clockwise rotation viewed from the rear, a standard prop with a standard screw thread will try to tighten itself up when running, and will be in no danger of falling off. However, if you reverse the moror rotation, the standard screw thread will now try to undo itself. That seems to be what has happened.
The cure is either to get a left hand prop with a left hand screw thread, and have a corresponding left hand thread on the shaft, or to use a locknut AGAINST THE PROP to hold it on securely.
Locknuts are commonly used for most boats, since going into reverse can cause the same problem. The only time you don't need to worry is when your motor can only go one way, like an I/C one...
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The cure is either to get a left hand prop with a left hand screw thread, and have a corresponding left hand thread on the shaft, or to use a locknut AGAINST THE PROP to hold it on securely.
As I suggested in a previous post, I would have thought it would be logical to have matching left hand threads on the prop and prop shaft as a matter of course in order to perhaps counter the potential problem of losing a prop from the right hand side ... ??
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As I suggested in a previous post, I would have thought it would be logical to have matching left hand threads on the prop and prop shaft as a matter of course in order to perhaps counter the potential problem of losing a prop from the right hand side ... ??
Easy enough to do if you are cutting the threads, but it may be harder to buy prop shafts and props like this? And you would still need locknuts if you expect to run in reverse...Props with a dog connector tapped and soldered onto the shaft would also address the problem...
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That's my point ... in making and supplying reverse props as they do, albeit it with right hand thread, I would have thought that they would also make the prop shaft with a left hand thread and have a left hand thread on the reverse prop ??
I acknowledge the fact that in reversing a boat lock nuts would still be needed, the reality there perhaps being that as its a minimal, and slow, operation for most it wouldn't cause that much of a problem .. question then ... on a double motor craft, would it hurt to have two standard props on it, wouldn't a boat still work OK like that or is it better and/or necessary to have contra rotating props ??
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How many pitches and diameters and blade configurations do you want to stock with a LH thread?? And how much do you want to PAY for the pleasure? The road to Hell and all that.
Regards Ian.
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Talk about opening the gates to hell - with wanting to produce left and right handed threaded props and prop shafts - We had a late dear friend on here who is now on the other side, bless him - I can hear his screams of fright and anger, like many a time the telephone calls I used to receive when his customers couldn't even wire up a battery the correct way in their models - and consequently burned out umpteen speed controllers and sent them back to him, wondering why they didn't work. So, if the average modeller cannot understand simple things like positive and negative what chance have we got of them understanding left and right handed threads O0 - we do know for a fact we would get 'me propeller won't fit on the shaft; there is something wrong with the threads'
%% so keep well away from that idea.
A lock nut secured properly onto the back face of the propeller boss is the simplest way, to stop the prop falling off.
John
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Curiously, if I have the picture right, when viewing from the stern a right hand prop will screw on in a clockwise direction and if rotated in a clockwise direction will actually have a tendency, because of the thrust on the blades, to unwind and fall off. A left hand prop will do the reverse so will tend to tighten up on the shaft. Either way a simple lock nut on the shaft will hold the prop on securely irrespective of the direction of rotation. I've never lost a prop yet!
The lock nut also serves another important purpose as depending on the direction of rotation the prop can screw up the shaft and lock itself solid.
We should also reflect where the thrust goes. Between the lock nut and the end of the outer prop shaft tube you should have one or two small washers as these act as thrust bearings together with say 1mm of endwise float fore and aft such that the thrust is taken by the tube and not the engine bearings which will cause premature wear and overheating of the motor and increased current consumption (unless brushless as I believe they have different bearings).
Cheers
Geoff
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Hi guys ... whoa there .. %) {-) ... the logistics of it all aside it was just a 'Spock' question re; a logical thought .. does beggar the question though, why make a reverse prop ?? ... and I notice there has been no answer to my question about a boat operating correctly with two matching props .. ie both spin the same way for fwd or reverse .. is it necessary to have contrarotation on a twin engine craft ..?
I received the replacement 35mm prop today but in talking about being confused I ordered a 'right hand ' one in as much as from the rear it is for the right hand motor but have in fact received a standard prop for fwd movement, now I could use it and reverse the motor again so both spin anticlockwise for fwd operation, but I also ordered two opposite 40mm props and have fitted them for now, and yes locked the new one in place so it doesn't unscrew. .. so another new to RC 'dumb' question, when talking left and right re props are we talking about prop shape or its position on the boat ... looking from the stern, the No 2 boat has the left hand motor etc configured for anticlockwise fwd direction and the right hand one configured for clockwise fwd direction, ... right or wrong, or doesnt it matter .. ??
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Hi there Allen
Your basic question about prop rotation and so forth can become a very complex subject. There are a lot of governing factors involved to the extent that it may sometimes stove ones brain in - leaving one looking for a bottle of whisky {-) . But, have a search on this Forum there are a lot of very good topics detailing this subject and it could possibly answer all of your queries.
I have put a link on just of two topics I found using a quick search
Prop rotation direction (modelboatmayhem.co.uk) (https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,263.msg17732.html#msg17732)
Propeller Rotation & Configuration (modelboatmayhem.co.uk) (https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,51291.0.html)
Now here is something to put a cat amongst the pigeons for you. Many moons ago I built an RTTL model. The build is somewhere on this forum if you want to look it up.
It was built with a lot of information from the builders of the original vessels. Originally, the vessels began with triple shafts and engines and then some of them were converted to a twin engine twin shaft configuration. Now, here is the thing, the props both turned the same direction - because, it was found, during World War II , they could achieve a bit more speed from the craft that way for the given horse power and revs of the engines.
The other deciding fact was the shortage of reversing gearboxes.
A pic of my RTTL props .....
John
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And we haven't even broached ( %) ) metric and him perryall threads.
Regards Ian.
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And we haven't even broached ( %) ) metric and him perryall threads.
Regards Ian.
... say what ... ??? :o :o {-) {-) {-) {-) ... yes lets not go there then ... T M I for one thing at the level I'm at in all of this and not something I think that will affect my operating my boats ..??
John
many thanks for that post and the links therein, very interesting reading and yes something of a can of worms I feel making me wonder if it was a good idea asking the question I did .. ??
In short my No 1 boat has a single prop so until I got the No 2 boat and the problems arose where it wouldn't reverse that I realised, with help on the forum here, it was down to the props being opposites yet turning the same direction ... Having corrected that led to my losing the stbd prop as posted, the solution there being as I say to buying two more and fitting them, quite by accident I admit, as outward turning configuration and it has yet to be tested but from all that is said should be OK .. interesting point re WWII settings to use a word that they found with props both turning in the same direction it gave more speed, an answer then to my question about a boat operating Ok with both props in the same direction and a back up too if I lose the stbd prop again (despite the lock nut) as I have two standard props spare now.
I will admit to one thing that hadn't occurred to me, I had, have, always assumed a boat turned in answer to the rudder due to the directional motion it was going, now I know this will make a few smile or even roll their eyes, but I had no idea the prop wash assisted in all of that but does make sense after reading about it all .. and there was me at one point wondering if my props were too close to my rudders ... %) %) sigh !!
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My setup of screw props for 1/32 Pt-109 are like these.
1;35mm dia props with three blades. Major difference with yours I feel is just the pitch. Mine seems more positive.
2;With these props, she has sailed at high speed many times so far successfully except the latest one in which I lost stb prop
due to my poor maintenance. :embarrassed: {-) %%
3; The props were CCW and CW, both rotate outboard each other, by which she leaves nice wakes to me as in pic2 at a bit high speed. O0 A combination of twin Mabuchi 540 motors and a lipo 2S 5000mAh has made an awesome job to me. :-))
I think you had better reconsider these precedent data for your setting as mine is the evidence to go through to the good sailing,
although much useful argumentation has been done so far for seeking the best/better solutions.
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Took the No 2 boat for a sail tonight, went reasonably well, didn't lose the stbd prop so all good there and has a good turn of speed too, but a canal is perhaps not an ideal spot as it kept slowing occasionally due to minor clogging of props. ... one thing tho', despite rudders being centered it has a tendency top drift to port, wondering if props are balanced right in as much as not bought as a pair but singles ??
Pics attached then, grabs from very short videos so apologies for quality, it is hard to control boat and try to take video and stills at the same time, but they serve perhaps to illustrate performance ??
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I checked briefly and previously the balance of both motors concerning their revolutions in the manners as seen in the pics below at a piece of 1.3V Nimh battery. The test was done to know how many rotation may be the starting point, by which I could know the smoothness or silence of the motors mainly. In other words, the rotations will be so-called "idling status" for these motors.
Moreover, I could confirm how smooth and well the connections among the motors, couplings and screw shafts were at a higher
voltages.
The result was...so silent, so smooth and so slow enough to be able to see the coupling as its original still shape while
rotating in around 1900 RPM. O0 :D %) :-)) I regarded these setups as serviceable for a RC boat to operate on our lake,
where noisy RC boats have been strictly prohibited to sail for many years.
Needless to say, both stern tubes were filled with grease completely and the 1900-2000RPM idling was achieved at 1.3V. O0 ;D :-))
This MTB has run well later on subsequently as seen in my previous video. O0 1900 and 2000RPM were acceptable to me in balance test and subsequent performance of maneuverabilities on the water.
1;stern tubes were filled with grease and tachometer was set. Let's go the test....expecting a stable rotation...
2;Left motor ..1900RPM rotating stably enabling the coupling in nearly in its still mode at 1.3 V battery.
3;Right 2000RPM
The motors were getting a bit warmer in several minutes test like high and low speed and then finished. :-))
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You cant photo/video and control a boat at the same time ...!!
Ive said that a few times now I think, shame I didn't learn from it as I took the No 1 boat for a run tonight and had a wake up call ... set the boat running, (and mind you this thing is f a s t ) but must have knocked the rudder control as I picked up my camera and it was heading straight for a concrete edge on the canal .. yes I panicked somewhat but managed to stop it before it hit, only in trying to move the control to stop it went a little further and hit reverse .. the result being as in the pictures attached .. as well as disintegrating the coupling I managed to also bend the end of the prop shaft ... of course without power now she was drifting along the canal and out of reach, a lighter moment occurring when a couple on a narrow boat put an RC duck .. (yes a duck) .. in the water to try and guide my boat back to the bank .. unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, it wasn't working, (would have made a bit of a funny and perhaps embarrassing video though) and they helped me salvage my boat using their narrow boat.
I'm beginning to realise that the skill involved in making these boats, especially scratch built ones, isn't just limited to being about the build but also very much in the the handling, sailing and controlling of them and if there's a 'driving test' for model boats I maybe need to take it ? :-)
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Oh,,,You really had so severe experience ,but lucky that a certain couple was near your boat... :embarrassed:
You had better carry a kind of rescuing method in case of such emergency unless you are confident in the model boating
on the field or unexpected mishaps. O0 I lost a small tugboat in such a similar situation in the past after drifting a mile or so
in this lake. <:(
One of my mottos empirically is "A RC boat/ship be judged finally/properly by and on the water whether or not she is well built" :embarrassed: For this point of view, it is ideal if the suitable(larger) water is available nearby for repeated testings... {:-{ O0
IF POSSIBLE,though...
1; Ideal couplings in most my RC boats of middle-size. Silent and tough!
2; Ideal water for testing and normal sailing, instead, rescue methods must be always considered... O0
A larger lake/pond is better for a fast PT boat to enjoy her peculiar high-speed feeling, isn't it? Wow-! :D
3: A happy sailing on the large water for me and her at high speed. !? %%
You had better ask your son or grandchild or wife for a help to take a video for your precious boat and better postings on here.! %% Simultaneous one-man operation is so risky to do, needless to say.
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Is (was) the motor and shaft in line with each other in both axis? Grease is adequate as a seal, rubber washer (O-Ring?) not necessary. Lot to be said for ball and socket drive couplings rather than hewko rubbish.
Regards Ian.
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Hi Ian, not sure if its me or Backerther you're referring to ... in my case yes it was in line well and very slightly low to be honest but ran well and fairly smoothly, I did manage to get a very short video of it and in fact I didn't try to simply stop it but unwittingly hit reverse hard and you can hear the 'clunk' that resulted from that which caused the damage as in the pictures.
Will be ordering a new prop shaft and coupler too but a little puzzled by your comment on those to be honest, aren't they standard item then ??
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A (final ?) update on both boats then ..
The No 1 boat is repaired in as much as I was able to join the coupler together again and I managed to straighten the prop shaft to where it is about 99% true (you can learn a lot watching 'The Repair Shop') .. :-)) and it ran very well on a test late afternoon today, I will of course still get a new prop shaft and coupler though .. !!
The No 2 boat was running well as said in an earlier post, albeit with a tendency to drift to port, a nice turn of speed (not as fast as the No 1 boat) and it responded OK to rudder commands, however in as much as the original boats had three engines, props etc all turning the same way, I have taken off the 40mm contra props, reversed the stbd engine polarity again and re fitted the standard 35mm props with both turning anti clockwise, it runs well on the stand but has yet to be tested on water, all in all though I don't expect any problems.
Going back to page one of this I have, Im pleased to say, come along way with the No 1 boat and what it was like originally to get to what it is today and learnt a lot in doing so thanks to help and advice here from those that gave it ... I bought the No 2 boat as a slightly started kit with a view to completing it and applying what I had learnt from the No 1 boat, ultimately to sell that one ... however given the state of the No 1 boat and all I have put into it plus its performance capabilities, Im probably going to keep it and sell the No 2 boat ... but not before I can get some stills and videos of a two boat patrol on the water, which I think .. Im hoping .. will look good ??
I will add pics as and when .. and perhaps if .. I manage to do that !
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Hello again all
I have not as yet had the opportunity to sail both boats in what I would see as a safe and controlled area, a canal as I've said before, not being an ideal place, witness a couple of scares I have had in doing so.
I'm wondering to about waterproofing them both in as much as they ship a very little bit of water through the area where the superstructure meets the deck, anyone have any tips there please .. Also in as much as I have now built two of these, but both being rescue refurbish tasks in as much as both had been started to a degree when I got them, I am considering trying to buy an unopened/complete kit to build having leant a lot from these two.
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Hi Allen A,
So nice to see you back on here again.
In my waterproof methods for this PT-boat, I did it in the process of assembling the model, using magnets and
and rubber as in the pics below. And I could have fundamentally good result, not to say perfect. O0 :embarrassed:
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That looks neat .... I have done something similar in as much as adding a lining to the edges of the deck, but then I stuck some fabric down with double sided tape and then treat it all with a waterproofing liquid .. time will tell ..?
Taking the No 1 boat to a club near me tomorrow as a quest so will see how it handles on a proper boating area, the No 2 boat is undergoing a minor refit in as much as I wasn't happy with the way the motors were mounted so am rejigging it all at present, as I will ultimately want to sell that one would like to be as neat as possible.
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This is my attempt at waterproofing, Ive extended the deck edges with plastic card, put a layer of double sided down with a fabric layer on top of that, then used a waterproofing medium on the fabric and topped it off with a thin layer of grease ... ok a little messy to look at like this, but with the superstructure mounted its not visible and hopefully will do the job ??
NB; .. by way of explanation, the old motor is for ballast and seems to work well, however I am thinking of swapping the battery and old motor around as the battery can be fiddly to place in position where it is.
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With reference to my comment above about making another model of this, but from an unopened unbuilt kit .. ( perhaps this should be in wanted ? ) .. a thought crosses my mind and forgive me if it has been broached in the past ..
Given that the Linderg variant is quite basic detail wise but an excellent motor platform and that Italeri are excellent for detail but not easy to convert to RC, would it be possible I wonder to combine the two ie; use the hull deck and cabins etc from the Lindberg but then all the finer detail items from the Italeri when and where (and if) they would fit, the difference in scale at that size would not cause that much of a problem maybe ?
Wondering on more experienced folks thoughts on it all, given the prices of the kits too it could prove to be costly, but maybe worth it ?? :-)
nb; ... note to mods a 'thinking' emoji could be useful ... :-)
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The pics below are the latest waterproof measures in my Pt-109 which is perfect against water ingress from the deck.
I applied a thin coat of bath cork around the edge of hull deck and fixed the detachable deck with 4 screws to get an ultimate
effect for fast continuous run on the water for about 7 minutes. And I did it successfully except a drop of water possibly
from the stern tube... {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
1; bath cork applied and screws to get an ultimate effect
2/3; A drop of water can be seen only here after the high speed run.... %%
4; Sufficient care for an overheat of motors must be taken if run fast continuously.... O0 O0 O0
I know many Rc boaters who have burnt the motors on the water leaving their boats afloat on the water.
In most cases, they did not take special measures to cool the motors and/or ESCs.... "oh,a'cchi-chi" too hot to touch !! {:-{ %% O0
Even I did it once in the past in my Jupiter P-550 powered by Mabuchi 540... 8)
Looking forward to your sailing report on here at your nearest club.?!!! :-))
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You seem to be interested in static scale realism for this MTB which is, needless to say, OK for your style of enjoyment. O0
But I rather would like to put more stress on scale realism of movement on the water simply because it is a kind of RC powered
boat. In this sense, excessively detailed decorations are not necessarily required for my RC scale boat that is EXPECTED to run
like a counterpart of 1/1 on the water. In this viewpoint, even a semi-scale RC boat will do for me in the EXTREME case. O0 :D
In other words, PTB not too slow while a scale cruiser boat and a large warship be graceful or magnificent in their sailing on the water.. {-)
PicNo,1 is my semi-scale 1m(40 inch) class Jupiter F-99 powered by and converted to a brushless motor, aged close to 45 years old
lady still in service as a senior flagship. {-) She is still graceful in her run... %% %% %%
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You seem to be interested in static scale realism for this MTB which is, needless to say, OK for your style of enjoyment. O0
Hi, actually no, you have apparently misunderstood my explanations and descriptions ... it is true I do like detail but also when and where as here there is movement involved then I like the movement to be realistic too and both boats sail very well, the No 1 boat being quite fast, probably too fast for a scale speed, the No 2 boat being perhaps a little more 'sedate' but still produces a nice bow wave and wake and with the bow riding high at speed on both boats.
The No 1 boat has a crew of 14 and I have used my imagination to try and place them all in work like positions, I have added a few extras here and there, flak matts for example, oil drums and depth charges, also as said before it has lights fitted at the bow, in the cabins, the searchlight works and the mast light too is operational, it is important I feel to not only have any moving model move realistically, but look realistic too.
A couple of pictures attached of the No2 boat on the canal recently, sorry for lack of quality but they are still grabs from a video program
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Thank you for sharing your pics with us of decent scenes sailing at moderate speed realistically by the waves and wakes.! :-)) :-))
I wish I could see the video that might clearly and vividly appeal your boats sailing realistically.!!
You had better have put the video itself on here since it is a power boat and moving scene..... Next time, I could expect..? :embarrassed:
A static scene of RC boat/ship on the water is generally not so interesting, appealing and impressive for me simply because
it is the very RC boat.... {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-)
Scale realism of the scale model boat is good if represented by the sailing scene/performance IF she is ON THE WATER in a sense. O0
Needless to say, static scene is also enjoyable, happy and interesting to see on the water from the viewpoint of scale realism.
Pic; The RCed static model on the water ..? {-) no working /movable parts except screw props, AA gun mounts and rudder..!! {-) {-) {-)
But its Ok since I rarely stare at her nor play with the AA gun mounts in the room except getting her out for sailing at speed on the water once she has been complete in my case. O0 :embarrassed:
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Not sure if this will go but a short clip from a standing start
OK so I cant seem to attach a short Mpeg it seems .. not sure how to get a video to view then .. sorry
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Hmmm .... I could be on the point of a large problem with the No 1 boat, it runs well as I say but I have noticed the motor gets hot .. and I mean HOT ..?? :o .... pic attached of it in situ, it was sold to me for the boat but think it is more suited to fast cars, especially as it was from Model Sport in Otley whose speciality cars and trucks etc seem to be ... thought I would mention here first though to see if it rang a bell and could be something else ??
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If it is running hot then it is overloaded in some way. Too big a propeller or maybe binding in the shaft tube. If the shaft isn't binding then try smaller props to get the system balanced. A motor won't get hot when under no load unless you are putting a massive over voltage through it.
Colin
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Hi Colin ... thanks .. still something of a novice at all this but have learnt a few things and have checked the motor to make sure no wires crossed or touching, also prop shaft runs freely with a little fore and aft play and battery is well within the capabilities of the motor .. 11.7 Lipo .. given the capabilities of the motor from my limited knowledge I cant see where it is under pressure as such as the boat fairly rockets along at full power, a little frighteningly so given my limited skills, the prop is a three bladed brass one about 30mm diameter
I have noticed though something of a 'rattle' from the motor itself when running medium speed on a stand so may go back to shop with it for their opinion, could be there is a fault there, a 'Friday night or Monday morning' one ... hopefully it is something as simple as that .. its a 540 and a little large and whereas it is square laterally it is very slightly low inline wise horizontally with the prop shaft because of the top deck/cabin fittings on these boats limiting my raising it more inline, wondering if they make a 450 or something like that which in being smaller in size I would assume would allow me to raise the motor a little more level ??
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If you should think that the motor is well-aligned and screw shaft is also smoothly rotated by hand, the rest is water-cooled
to cope with the over-heat. A motor is generally apt to get warm/hot when in rotation dependent upon the loads / speed against which an adequate measure has to be taken to cool/keep the motor temperature within a certain level.
The faster the boat, more the cooling is required not to get it blown up by the heat as I have predicted and warned previously in
my post dated July 13.
Especially RC scale boat is normally sealed completely against water ingress which is not good for motor cooling unlike other
RC cars and RC planes which are normally open to the air. O0
I have adopted the water -cooled system for all my FAST scale boat as a common sense, whenever she is "destined" to run faster continuously on the water. Slow moving FAST boat is not so interesting to see on the water from its nature/characteristic
just like a racing car running so slow on the course and vice versa for an old but fast classic cars,.... though interesting in another meaning??? {-) {-) {-)
The pic is my PT-109 ejecting powerfully the cooling water from the freeboard continuously for seven minutes this time
keeping the motors within a certain level of temperature.
The video is the best to show how a moving RC model ship actually, vividly, clearly and exactly behaves on the water, which
is impossible to represent real movements by still/momentary images, needless to say... O0
Lindberg 1/32 PT109 sailing test resulted in success in the third trial run. (youtube.com) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7QKh8ptwj0)
.....continuous sailing at speed with no problem by the water-cooling. :-))
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Unless you are building and running racing boats where you need every last ounce of power from the motor, watercooling should not be necessary. Motors may a get a a bit warm to the touch but no more than that. If they get really hot then something is wrong and watercooling is only treating the symptoms rather than the cause.
Looking back over the thread there is a suggestion that the tube has been filled with grease. If so, this may be the root of the problem. It is tempting to do this to provide a watertight seal but not necessary as the washer on the end of the shaft will prevent all but a few drops entering. Only the bearings at the end of the tube need a touch of grease and the aft one is effectively water lubricated anyway.
At slow speeds a grease filled tube feels very smooth but one the revs increase you get viscous drag which greatly increased resistance and thus current consumption. You don't even need to be going very fast either. I had this issue with my 48 inch fishery cruiser and removing the grease from the tubes cut current consumption by 60% or so t just moderate speed.
Glynn Guest explained this very well in his recent Model Boats article on Drivelines. I don't think he will mind if I quote the relevant section below.
Colin
*******************
Some modellers insist in filling
the propeller tube with grease.
This might be an advantage if
you have a leaky propeller tube
and the thick grease would
hinder the inward flow of water.
The problem with grease is its
viscosity, in other words its
‘stiffness’ and resistance to
letting things flow around it. A
good illustration of this effect is
to take a knife blade and move it
edge first through a low viscosity
fluid such as water and you will
hardly feel any resistance. Now
try it through something more
viscous like treacle or jam, even
with the sharpest of blades you
will feel noticeable resistance.
The same thing happens inside
the propeller tube as the rotating
shaft struggles against this
viscous drag.
In my less experienced youth,
I built a model based on an early
torpedo boat. It was outfitted
with a motor and battery pack
typical of fast electric racing
craft and similar performance
was expected. In fact it
wallowed around the pond in a
disappointing fashion and
displayed a short battery life and
very hot motor. I had of course
followed the accepted wisdom
of filling the propeller tube with
grease. Removing the grease
and replacing it with oil resulted
in the model storming across the
water in a much more realistic
manner, a cooler motor and
longer powered run. Since then
it’s been a ‘no-brainer’ for me to
avoid grease filled tubes and
only use oil.
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Allen, you need to tell Colin about the discussion with Stan and me last Sunday re the non straight line alignment of the prop shaft and the motor IN SIDE ELEVATION. Looks OK from above but the side view explains why you managed to shatter the Hewco when bunging it into reverse and also why the motor runs hot.
Regards Ian.
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Allen, you need to tell Colin about the discussion with Stan and me last Sunday re the non straight line alignment of the prop shaft and the motor IN SIDE ELEVATION. Looks OK from above but the side view explains why you managed to shatter the Hewco when bunging it into reverse and also why the motor runs hot.
Yes, I don't imagine that would have helped! Glynn's comments about grease are still very valid though as I can confirm myself. By stuffing the tube with grease you are effectively creating a torque converter.
Glynn's original 2012 Drivelines article in 2012 can be seen on the Model Boats website although all the diagrams are at the end following its conversion from the old Model Boats site.
https://www.modelboats.co.uk/1270/drivelines/
Colin
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I have been enjoying to sail very much many RC fast boats up to today as seen in the typical video above, all of which were water-cooled and filled with grease in the stern tubes. No problems including motor blown off by the overheat could took place at all after the fast sailings on the water. A motor is normally easy to get warm or hot even if well-aligned or adjusted if it should run
continuously fast for a certain time on the water.
"Seeing is believing" and "Example is better than precept" are my favorite proverbs. %) ;)
Take my Jupiter F-99 for instance. She has been in service for nearly 45 years up to today with no troubles filled with regular maintenance of grease and water cooled system.
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I'm not saying it won't work, only that it isn't working efficiently. All that heat is energy from your battery which instead of being used to drive the boat, is simply warming up the lake! It's like riding a pushbike up a hill in low gear, you can do it but its a heck of a lot more effort than using a high gear.
Colin
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It' worth challenging to water-cooled system if you do not have any ideas to come up in your brain.
I have ever experienced 3 years before to blow a motor off in my Jupiter P-550( 20 inch long) completely due to tremendously hot heat. And I challenged to water-cooled system for a better solution and I did it completely as seen below.
1;I made a water jacket
2;I also set it around a brand-new Mabuchi 540 motor.
3;set it in the hull securely
4;a water pic-up is set this position in my case where is OK, if possible, ideal if within a prop rotation diameter scope
"Example is better than precept"even in this position as in the next pic. O0 :-))
5;water drain is confirmed !!and the boat could succeed in fast continuous sailing with no anxiety of possible over-heat threat. :-)) {-) O0
Before that, refrain from all the mis-alignments and secure smooth rotation of the screw shaft.
Wishing you a success. !!!
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Gentlemen .. thank you and all points taken I assure you .. to whit .. I have just spent a couple of hours dismantling and cleaning, de-greasing my prop shaft as I had indeed greased it in the belief it would help ... pics attached of it all as it came out of the boat and of the cleaning materials ... please don't have nightmares :o :-)
I haver also managed to raise the motor a little more than is showing in the picture below, it is just clearing the underneath of the upper deck structure now and as for the nearness possibly contributing to the (over)heating of the motor time will tell.
Pics also attached of the prop itself for 'inspection' .. ok2 .. would be interested to hear any comments, pro or con please gents.
Ian, nice to meet you last Sunday, wont be there this week but will be on the 28th with both boats up and running for shakedown runs and hopefully photo and video opportunities ..
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Looking better Allen but the link from Colin re G G's driveline article should be noted. 'Motor Mounting' paragraph two, last sentence. Max efficiency can only be achieved by correct alignment. Problem with that motor and layout as you realise is that water cooling coil would be a problem to fit due to deckhouse clearance, or lack of it. Another check re water ingress, try sealing, purely as a test, the joint lines on the deck with electrical insulation tape. As we stated last week, water is probably getting in through the deck line rather than up the shaft.
Regards Ian.
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The motor shaft and screw prop shaft have to be in-line as much as possible as seen in the Pic No1 which I think is nearly perfect. :-))
And I confirmed ACTUALLY with a small battery the smooth rotation of screw shaft by tachometer and my experienced ears? if it should be calm, natural and smooth sound. O0
1; This is so called in-line.
2/3;I used 1.3V battery to check how fast/smooth RPM will be by this voltage...faster the better for smoothness
after grease up
4;The result was 1900RPM for port and 2000RPM Stb side. And so natural sound of normal rotation for my ears.
540 class motors+1.3V +1900RPM+natural sound are equal to OK for me. :embarrassed: %%
(Allen, try this test, if possible, to know how your prop shaft will be just for your reference after present modification.) O0 O0
I judged the above as sufficiently OK for smooth rotation of 540 class motors by which enough speed could be done as seen
in the video posted yesterday. :-)) Example is better and persuasive than theory/precept..??!!! :D
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Kiyo......as you say, music to our ears is a surprisingly accurate way to determine motor speed comparison O0
These relatively low-cost DC motors have by the manufacturing design, have a confirmed preferred direction of rotation [alignment of carbon brushes over the commutator etc]
It is also necessary to understand having a port & stdb motors with opposing direction of prop rotation, dictates the EMF created in each motor is opposite
This is the reason you see the differing speeds ....20,000 to 19,000 RPM etc
A proof of this is the 12v DC motor vehicle windscreen motor.........these have a single ball bearing in the endcap of the motor shell......when the motor is excited by electricity, in the preferred direction of rotation, the EMF forces the rotor shaft onto the ball end the endcap to act as a thrust ball, and minimising friction
If the polarity of this motor is reversed, connection to the voltage creates the EMF that pulls the rotor shaft off the ball......and the motor effectively hunts [longititudional float of the rotor during use]
A tachometer will also confirm a small % variance of output shaft speed :-))
Derek
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Thank you for your highly technical explanation and addition to what I posted, DereK !! :-))
You are a specialist in this field too, aren't you ? with stunningly awesome knowledge.. O0
Kiyo
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No, not a specialist Kiyo......just from experience years ago, with a 12v windscreen motor that by placement of the motor in a paddle wheeler hull created a question
During bench test trials, with constant voltage to the motor......resulted in varying audible hum, and recordable variation in output shaft speed <*< , however when applying reverse polarity [astern paddle shaft rotation] resulted with constant hum, and absolutely rock solid output shaft speed O0
Preferred direction of motor rotation confirmed with the thrust ball being engaged %)
Derek
PS...now I am not suggesting you conduct such a test, however I am absolutely confident that if you swapped the 2 motors in your vessel Kiyo, that the motors would confirmed alternate speeds so that the STDB would still confirm 20K shaft speed, with the PORT motor still at 19K shaft speed
So the location of the motor by the need for shaft direction determines the actual shaft speed and such variences etc..... ;)
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Morning gentlemen ... interesting details and very valid of course, and thank you, however if I may refer back to the beginning of this topic and remind you this isa rescue, rebuild, refurbish of an already (and badly ) started second hand build and in that respect to a degree I was stuck with what I got ... had I bought this an an un-started new project I would have approached it differently and in never having built or sojourned into RC boats before, as it is I have done the best I could with what I didn't have to put it a slightly different way.
Having leant a very great deal from re building both of these boats and the wealth of information imparted on the forum as I have, I do want to buy an unopened version of this to build the 'perfect' version of it.
Common sense I think dictates that everything has to be in line and I did my best to achieve that, however when and where fixed couplings are used then it is of course paramount that it is all exact, but when and where universal couplings are not only sold, but made for models, then to a point if there was a slight mis-alignment, as in the case of this boat, then the use of u/j would help alleviate that .... if you look at the picture of the coupling (before I raised it) I would assess it as less than a 5 degree angle, something a u/j more than capable of handling, as such then I feel too it is not actually 'causing' the over heat problem
I have in fact manage to raise it all about 4mm and it is now nearly there, but with respect to these builds, short of cutting a hole in the under side of the top deck area (and possibly weakening it too) there is not a lot I can do, the boat does run and smoothly too, there is no 'rattle' to the motor noise and it does not wallow, I have it in mind to buy a smaller motor in order that I can align it perfectly with the prop shaft but also want to balance that with the power and performance the current motor gives me.
Ian, re the water ingress, I have checked the decking seal and there was a couple of places where the glue had failed somewhat leaving gaps, this has all been resealed, however in going back to the (bad) initial build of this I have noticed the prop shaft area was 'sealed' using fibreglass and I can see minor cracks in it so maybe a problem there too? ... I will look forward to seeing you and Stan next Sunday for a hands on view and further advice.
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I have just got around to reading more of the August 2024 issue of Model Boats magazine and there is an excellent article by Richard Simpson about managing propeller thrust in both full size vessels and our model boats as the principles are the same. It is very useful in understanding the forces involved and where the source of problems might lie. Worth a read as Richard is a marine engineer.
Colin
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Hello again gents .. hope this isn't getting tiresome for some ... As I said above I have taken on board all that has been advised, however I have also had to put it into the context of the build of this boat and try to adapt where I can the advice given ... a couple of pictures for reference in the hope it will clarify part of the problem ..
I don't think angle as it was had a definitive bearing on the over heating as such and as said it has been raised more inline by about 3 or 4mm, but then this gives rise to the other problem ie; space as can be seen from the other two pics, the steel ruler being across the deck as a whole while the plastic material is across the lower inset area where the upper deck sits .. and perhaps this lack of space is what is contributing to the over heating, which I don't know if it is still happening since cleaning and de-greasing the prop shaft, as I haven't sailed it again yet.
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I would think that much of the high temperature of the motor is due to the fact that it is a racing motor intended for a 7.2V NiCd or NiMh pack. These are intended to be high revving and need a high current which produces a lot of heat. You are running it at a higher voltage so the current will be even higher for the same prop and even more heat produced. It's normal use in a buggy would probably give around 5 to 10 minute runs maximum so running it in aq boat with longer runs will produce yet more heat. I used to use motors like yours in a fast electric on a 2 blade P35 prop, it would give a 5 minute run on a 2500mAh nicad and be hot at the end of the run (batteries as well). It might be a good idea to get hold of a Watt Meter to check the actual current in use, you could then try reducing prop size or pitch to reduce the load on the motor and the current. Alternatively replace the motor with one intended for a more scale model. A higher number of turns will help reduce the current taken by the motor and probably give more running time.
Jim
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Hi Jim, as ever thanks for the input .... yes I have realised that in being new to this I have been at the mercy of the dealers somewhat ..
The boat had an Mtronics Viper Marine 15 when I got it, I burnt that out trying a maiden voyage on a fish pond, clogged the prop with weeds ... I was sold an Aeronaut Race 620 Navy by Model Shop Leeds but I found that slow and it was/is large too still, ..??
I then went to ModelSport in Otley and they sold me the motor I have in it now, as you say and as I mentioned before they sold me it seems a fast motor more in line with what they specialise in ... fast cars and trucks and so here we are with your analysis of the overheating problem, hitting the nail on the head I think ?
I have been using it with an 11.1 volt Lipo which wont help from what you say, I do have a 7.4 v Lipo and may try that in the boat to see if it helps with getting hot ... however ultimately as I have said I do want to get a smaller motor so I can bring the bring it all inline more. I have found a Dynamite Tazer 390 22T motor, which is 8mm shorter and 10mm narrower than the current one and so will help with space, but am wondering if it will have the power and performance I have at present which while causing problems is .. n i c e .. %) :-) ... the problem with the Tazer 390 being that it is either marked as discontinued or not in stock ,, anyway I am open to suggestions on a suitable motor that will give the performance associated with a fast PT Boat before I order a Tazer 390 from the one shop I have found with one in stock.
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First of all, I did not know that you had been using 3S lipo for this motor!!..though I do not know the specifications of the motor. :o
I have ever burnt my Mabuchi 540 RS with 3S lipo installed in my Jupiter P-550 and thence I have switched the battery to 2S lipo for 540 class motor up to today. My PT-109 is using 2S lipo.
Apart from the above, here are my setup of the successful example of my PT-109 just for your information.
1;Motors...Mabuchi 540 low cost motors( around less than USD 10?) Yours looks expensive and gorgeous from its appearance.??!! :embarrassed:
2;Battery...2S lipo 5000mAh
3;ESC ..nearly the same as yours
4;Props..plastic-made 3 bladed 35mm dia.which is sooo lightweight and cheap against your gorgeous brass prop. :D See the pic below.
5;Prop shaft , stern tube...as per the kit original.
6:Couplings ..so called engineering plastics-made which is tough and calm as heard ? in the video posted a few days ago.
7:Alignment between two shafts of motor and prop is nearly perfect.
8;Water-cooling was properly done which I think is so important even if proprely done in every aspect of setting.
Without this water-cooling, my PT boat will possibly result in the over heat or stop on the water after/during continuous high speed run as in the video and pic4.
Needless to say, a slow moving PTB and/or scale ships does not possibly need such a system at all.!! O0 :embarrassed:
9;Grease was filled in the stern tubes fully in the beginning through the filling posts of stern tubes.
Pic1;Props used in my boat.... so low cost like the motor which will do sufficiently for this class of pla-model boat.!! :-)) :-))
Pics 2/3...clearance between the motor and deck is narrow as the same as yours.
Pic4;Under high speed silent steering to port !
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I have made the comment that I had realised that its not that simple to just buy/build an RC boat and sail it, there is a degree of skill and control needed and that I am (hopefully) learning slowly, like wise I am realising too that in building a boat it is important to marry the correct motor to it and in turn then marry the correct battery to that motor in order to get a successful build.
I took the boats out today again, reduced the battery to a 7.4 2s on the No 1 boat but the motor still gets quite hot so definitely a more appropriate one needed there and smaller too for air space around it and possibly a cooling coil if the problem persists plus of course the opportunity to bring the motor and prop shaft fully inline from the (very) slight angle it has at present.
It ran well all the same but as I'm hopefully sailing at the weekend at Batley, I may try swapping out the brass prop for a plastic one on a comparison basis to see if that helps, it still ships a little water but It seems to be from where the fibre glass .. (why. ??) .. was used to 'seal' the prop shaft area, so maybe a strip down and rebuild over the winter.?
Having reconfigured the motors layout on the No 2 boat it too sailed well, not as fast as the No 1 but more sedate as I say and sails dry too.
Pics attached from todays runs then, annoyed with myself for not checking the camera as I had it on 'Program' from a previous static shoot and some otherwise excellent motion shots were lost due to slow shutter .. stupid (amateur) mistake on my part ... c'est la vie .. !!
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Hopefully sorted the overheating problem as I have acquired a new motor today, a Core RC CR711 core 21 with built in fan, Ok so its still a 540 and Ive still got the slight angle on the prop shaft but it fits Ok and on a test run this afternoon worked well, only getting slightly warm as against red hot as the other motor did... also swapped out the brass prop for a plastic one as a bench test and it seemed smoother in all honesty, so left it on as it crossed my mind that perhaps the brass prop is a little unbalanced ??
A further couple of pics then from today with new motor and plastic prop, it handled well on the test run, and I felt I had more control, however a question if I may ... I noticed on a previous run that it stopped suddenly, no response to the tx .. then would go for a little bit on command but stop again and after initial panic it occurred to me the battery was getting low ... same thing happened today so wondering if its standard to do that or can it be set to travel at low speed for recovery when a battery gets low ... have to confess I simply placed the ESC in the boat to get power etc, read about 'failsafe' but not exactly sure what it is or how to set it ... anyone please ... ??
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From my experience....
Sudden stop on the water and repeated soon again....may come from an apparent low battery phenomenon or over-heat
of ESC and/or motors, a kind of heat protection function worked in ESC properly..???as in my experience..
The motor with a built-in fan is much much better than nothing against heat problem. :-))
But water-cooled system is much better than air-cooled system in fully sealed hull where warm/hot air is only circulated and
used to cool and/or sometimes "warm" the motor...??? O0 :embarrassed:
Difference of its effect between water-cooled and air-cooled systems possibly and typically may take place at continuous fast sailing at longer time run.
One of the most famous WW2 fighters, Supermarine Spitfire, a heroic plane of the Battle of Britain must have been equipped with..
a water- cooled Merlin engine fully covered with a cowling....mustn't it...?? In spite of its high speed capability in the (cold)air....water-cooled... O0 :embarrassed: :o {-) :-)) :-))
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Sounds like normal behaviour for an esc setup for LiPo cells. These have a low voltage cut off to the motor to protect the cells from being over discharged. During running the voltage of the cells under load will drop below the cutoff voltage and the motor will cut.This allows the cell voltage to rise over the cutoff voltage and the motor will start but the load will drop the voltage again cutting the motor. this sets up the cycle of stop/start you are getting. If you cut power when the motor initially cuts and let it sit for a couple of minutes the battery will partially recover enough to allow you to run at slow and bring the boat back to you. Best to time how long a run you get before the motor cuts and actually tun for at least a minute less than this, if you have a timer on your transmitter set this up to warn yourself.
Jim
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If your PTB had been a bit larger, it could have installed an emergency small battery for secure recovery to the shore without
any anxiety, as my Najade that have been saved several times by this small battery in the pic below.
Even this small battery could give her over 3mitutes or so to sail at moderate speed. O0 ;)
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Hello gents .. thanks for the info re; low battery issue, the secret being then to let it sit/drift for a short time and then guide it inshore ... raises a question for me then, are Lipos best for boats or RC as a whole or it it better to use other types of battery ?
It seems strange that a 7.4v for example will start to cut out are around 6 volts or thereabouts, an understandable safety feature but not a great margin there in reality, I like the idea of a spare low volt battery as standby for such an event but wouldn't know how to wire one in frankly ... due to sail both boats tomorrow at Batley, give them both a good try out, all batteries charged, so here's hoping for a successful day.
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The 7.2 NiMH pack is not cutting out. It is the speed controller that is doing that. The cut out is needed for LiPo batteries because if you discharge them below a certain voltage per cell it damages them beyond recovery. The cut out voltage can usually be set on the controller or turned off altogether. If you do that, then when the NiMH pack is running low the boat will slow down noticeably but will not stop and you will have several minutes juice left to bring it in safely. It should not harm the NiMH pack if you recharge it as soon as possible (when you get home for example).
Colin
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Hi Colin, thanks for that, where I'm lost I think is in setting or turning off the cut off on the ESC, there is a jumper on it I have set for Lipo batteries, is it as simple as removing that while remembering of course not to run a Lipo down too low as I am aware that to do so can deep six them ...... also are you suggesting then I should switch from Lipo to NIMH batteries ..??
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No need to switch to NiMh cells in fact plenty of reasons not too. One is that to get the same capacity the NiMh pack will be much heavier reducing the performance of the boat. All you need to do is keep an check on your running time so as not to reach the low voltage cut off on the esc. You can buy a voltage checker for LiPo packs that plugs into the balance connector and gives an audible alarm when the voltage gets too low. This can be set to go off before the esc will cut power to the motor.
Jim
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TBH Allen, I'm not sure what you are doing! If you are using LiPos then you do need the cutoff if not then you don't.
If you are using LiPos then you could fit an audible alarm which will warn you when the voltage is getting low. However, the best thing is to measure the current consumption of your boat at full revs and work out how long it will run at that speed before running out of power with the fitted battery capacity then bring it in before the cut off operates. If the calculated time is 20 minutes then maybe bring it it at 15 if you have been running it flat out.
You wouldn't run a car until the tank runs dry so best not to do it with a boat. The battery voltage can be measured with a wattmeter or voltmeter if you are in doubt.
just seen Jim's post above - good advice.
Colin
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My style of low batter/operating time control is as follows;
Before setting out to sail....voltmeter checking as in the pic1 and cooking timer set to a definite time.
I normally make it a practise to set around 5 minutes for a fast boat which requires me a bit tension. :embarrassed: {-) O0
During the sailing...cooking timer alarm around my neck that I used to do the same in RC airplanes that needed the severe tension by the fast flying. Generally speaking, a man is apt to forget the time when he is absorbed in something seriously. O0 O0 Oh, don't say "so primitive like your radio" but simple, easy and secure to control a safe sailing on the time and low battery. O0 {-)
It should seem that the length of time under tension is reasonable to set within about 5 minutes or so for me...
Over that time, the tension will possibly be released/loosened leading to the mishap of the model boats/airplanes. {:-{ :(( <:(
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TBH Allen, I'm not sure what you are doing! If you are using LiPos then you do need the cutoff if not then you don't.
just seen Jim's post above - good advice.
Colin
TBH honest Colin Im not sure what Im doing either, ;) {-) .. seriously, its just that I like thing to work and work right and its all a learning curve but I am getting there thanks to replies here and as you say Jims advice does make sense too. Sadly didn't get to sail yesterday as ended up in hospital for the day, double whammy really as it would have been a chance for hands on advice from the more experienced guys there too.
I will get a voltage checker and run the tests to see what the timings are, will also look into a spare recovery battery as Backerther suggests, an optional back up if I glitch it ??
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Having time on my hands and it being a nice day I decided to try and ascertain how long the battery would last by running the boat on the canal .. I will though as advised buy a voltage checker I think ?
Essentially I spent 35 minutes sailing it on and off, I say on and off as I had to occasionally remove weeds from the prop, wanted to check on the motor, and I could probably have got longer but the experiment served to give me an idea and satisfy myself that I would have plenty of sailing time from the batteries, and anyway I will I think always carry a spare for the boat as I do for the TX.
The new fan cooled motor still got warm of course initially (but not as bad as the other motor) but I could tell from the motor noise when some weed had caught the prop and towards the end the motor did get hotter to touch, a combination perhaps of the enclosed below deck area and having to work harder when the prop got a little clogged ... suffice to say I cleared it straight away every time that happened, .. it still ships a little water but I'm more satisfied that is from spill onto the deck and then seepage between the deck joints but still have it in mind as a winter project to perhaps try and remove the deck and re-engineer and re-seal the prop shaft assembly.
So (probably dumb) questions if I may, or should I say opinions please, bearing in mind I'm using a 35mm prop, (scale size should be about 22mm in reality), what is best, brass or plastic, does a bigger prop give more power, what is the more efficient, 2, 3, or 4 blades ??
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Just out of interest, are you now running with or without grease stuffed prop tubes?
Colin
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Hi Colin ... no I degreased it a while back when I fitted a new shaft ... Im guessing you're referring back to the heating up of the motor ... swapped out the prop from the brass one to a plastic one at the same time, haven't really noticed much difference in the performance though.
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I think the length of the tube makes a difference. It was long one on my boat. Still, it sound like things are getting better.
Colin
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Im hoping so ... yes, the prop shaft itself is 11 inches long and rotates freely when not connected to the motor, to my inexperienced eye though I think it is at a bit of an acute angle maybe, that part of it being just about the only thing I haven't improved/modified or worked on.
There is even less room now with the new motor and with it being longer there is no gap between it and the upper deck, not that there was much more before if you look back at the previous picture, they touch but the deck doesn't bulge up out of line, thankfully too there is no heat transfer from the motor to the underneath of the upper decking.
Pictures show a somewhat crowded layout perhaps, wondering if maybe I can fit a small cooling fan in there somewhere ??
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Just an impression about your prop used together with a 540 class powerful (gorgeous..sports tuned?)motor....
It's a bit "mottainai”that means a sense of wasteful for that motor. If I were you, I would have used much strong-pitched
props as seen in the pics below. I just feel yours is better used in a slow-moving model boat/ship.
The boat will possibly go much faster by the sharp-pitched props though the motor possibly should get hotter instead, for which
water-cooled system will do so good a job.!! O0
Pics are 34mm dia props working so good a job with Mabuchi 540 low cost motors in my PT-109 as seen in my previous video. O0 :-))
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You might like to try the last part you haven't changed Allen, Prop shaft angle. No doubt someone will correct my observation but looking at the bow wave, when boat is going slow, suggests hull is 'digging in'. Bow at front, prop at back and thrust of prop is down. If you look at the racing loonies, prop drive is horizontal and no, you can't do this on yours but if you make the drive line shallower, this is going to lower the motor and drive line angle at coupling. A few simple measurements and a pencil and paper side elevation drawing should show what's achievable Bart chopping plastic to start with.
Regards Ian
Forget the fan, just another current drain.
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Hi Ian ... yes the prop shaft configuration as a whole is a bit of a mess I think .. pic attached and what you see there is as I got it ... and had I the knowledge then I have gained in the interim I would probably have addressed it sooner, as it is and as I have said, it will be a winter project to try and disassemble all the fibreglass etc. without hopefully damaging the hull and reconfigure to a more realistic angle, as you say it will enable me to lower the motor for one thing and perhaps improve other things too.
Took the No 2 boat for a sail today, works well, no leaks and nice little bit of power, quieter than the No 1 boat too ... usual on and off problem with weeds but that's the canal again, motors did get a little hot but then I remembered I haven't removed the grease in the twin prop shafts on this boat, that and the weeds not helping of course, so a job to do there over the next couple of days, will ultimately try and sell this one I think ?
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In as much as I made a post asking about assigning channels it may be obvious to some that this 'PT Boat' is still all ongoing, that being said however I am I think at the conclusion of this little saga re PT boats ..
The No 1 and No 2 boats were both rescue rebuilds, ie bought as started and with some bits missing, and all the previous posts refer to both of those, but I have since sold the No 2 boat, ... I did manage to remove the deck from the No 1 boat due to the realisation that in places it wasn't sealed and secure, that was a successful refurbish I'm glad to say and that boat is now complete, water sealed and more balanced than before and sails well for all that.
All that being said I have bought a (third) complete unbuilt kit and attempted to put together a more complete and detailed model applying what I learnt from the other two and also using period taken picture from the two PT Boat books I have as references.
I fitted the length of trim for want of a better word along both sides of the hull, and as before I added lighting to the searchlight, bow light, mast light and in the cabins as well as nav. lights; Using thin cloth I have attempted to produce canvas covering for the torpedo tubes ends and in a couple of places on the boat, I also managed to get some examples of canvas bags, etc and also fitted a .50 cal near the bow.
One thing I have added that may cause a little bit of critical comment, but is accurate in being taken from a picture, is the star and bar emblem current at the time to the top of the front cabin .. I could have also put a large star on the deck at the bow, something apparently some PT boat captains did due to 'friendly fire' incident whereby some PT boats were sometimes attacked by their own aircraft.
It has a full crew compliment all I hope positioned in varying working aspects, the pictures I hope telling the story better, It floats on an even keel but has not yet been fully sailed, the 'shakedown cruise' being something I am looking forward to doing.
In as much as this completes my foray into RC model boats, I would like to thank everyone for all the help advice and input I have received since starting here, I have enjoyed, more importantly perhaps though, I have learnt a lot from it all too .. thank you all .
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Allen,
Nice to see you back here again with many pics. :-)) And glad to know that you have continued your own PT boats.!
I am looking forward to your third PT boat build process, mate.!! :-))
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Hi .. thanks, those pics are the third boat, I haven't documented the build, just took it steady, took my time and this is the end result.
I still have the No 1 boat, I sold the No 2 boat and now just have the two .. pics attached of the two together, the No 1 boat being to the top and right in first two pics and to the left in the last one .... the thing is having finished them both, I don't know what to do next now .. %) :-)