Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Yachts and Sail => Topic started by: smileyjon on August 10, 2023, 10:10:10 pm
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So after building the Model Slipways Bluenose some years back (see elsewhere on this site) I'm going to 'try' and build the Amati Dorade with the intention of adding RC for pond sailing on occasional nice days . . .
I'm way out of my depth and looking for any help and input so here we go . . day one !
I've worked out the approximate waterline (poorly illustrated on the plans) and built a small test tank to work out where the lead in the keel might go and how much is needed.
I'm increasing the rudder size and I desperately wish to avoid a removable deck as this is primarily a display model.
I know almost nothing about RC stuff but need to keep this very reliable and simple . . and space is limited as she is only about 900mm long and 160mm wide with 3 sails to control.
I'm going to try and add a sketch of how I 'think' this would work . . please comment and offer guidance !
Thank you all
Jon
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Hi good luck with the build.
Have you considered using a winch with an encapsulated drum? I have a yacht of dorade's size that works well with the winch. You do not need a loop to go with it. The sheets to the main and jib come out direct to the sails.
They are in a standard size servo and need careful setting up but once done no problems.
Howes sell them for about £10 with some options on the number of turns, 4 should suit you.
Keep going
Roy
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Hi this is a top view of my compact winch and rudder control. The rudder control was a surface system on a pond yacht.
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Here is a view of my compact set up.
Roy
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Many thanks Roy . . show more sometime please as it looks amazing and I will look into the winch idea !
I would like (if possible) to build this primarily as a display model (proof of the pudding etc) and try to hide as much as possible.
There is one on this site which has full RC but has a full removable deck . . and of course QD rigging and so-fourth.
My current (today) plan is to have just the mid section as removable thereby keeping much of the rigging untouched. Front of cabin to rear of cockpit perhaps . . .
I'll post a pic of interior held in place with tape . . although yet again the image upload failed and all was lost . . tried copy/paste, the insert image icon and the add image link . . . . . bogger !
Thanks again
Jon
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(http://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=24191947710396404&set=a.678615678822938)
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Hi Jon,
I've spotted a removable deck version (with 2 drum winches) on 'RC Groups' and personally would avoid it,
sounds like you are on the right track with your much simpler mid section hatch idea.
Dorade's internal structure brings back memories of helping a friend build a Nottingham J class yacht kit,
you may find their build instructions and winch details helpful -
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YbkIU_OPtht3Ns8gDNtOYmQmuOz5lYFH/edit.
Their winch builds up into a single unit around an Aluminium bar with pulley at one end and motor at the other,
the complete unit drops in at a shallow angle via a hatch and is removable for maintanance etc.
Gary Webb's 'Bearospace Industries' schooner models from the USA also have similar winch systems with lots of pics and info online.
https://www-minisail--classic-de.translate.goog/minisail-classic/flotte/?pageId4b2d4cc0=3&_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc#list_4b2d4cc0
I wish you good luck it is a beautiful design and deserves to be on the water !
Paul.
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Hi Smiley... Here is a photo of my pond yacht 32 inches long.
Roy
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Anyone who has built the Aeronaut Bella kit would recognise the sails as these are from the kit. I rebuilt my Bella as a gaff rig, the sails were left over.
Roy
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Lovely . . . great sails
Roll of lead arrived today so into the test tank in the week . . lots of calcs
Still looking at the deck and wondering HOW to have a longish lift off section when planks are curved. It'll come to me !
Forming an oversize rudder and a stand today
No pics as yet
Jon
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Paul . . . many many thanks for the links
Off to investigate them right now !
Tomorrow I begin on the internal framing . . not quite as per supplied plan as I intend to leave out one cross part and amend the floors a little. Erring on the side of caution as it's easier to add than subtract
For now thanks again
Jon
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Hi Jon,
You may be able to get away with a hatch under the main cabin and footwell area only - along the lines of a Notts J -
here the winch units forward pulley end slides into a location hole out of sight under the deck and held by screws in the cabin area,
all works without hacking hatches in the deck etc, admittedly it's a much bigger model with acres of room but with some experimentation it could work.
Roy I know little about drum winches being used as they are intended (hauling in main sheets),
my yachts to date use the above drum/loop hack or servo lever arm style -
Any thoughts on how Dorades 3 sails would work - can 3 sheets operate from a single drum winch??
I've noticed the removable deck Dorade uses 2 drum winches -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2xoqrNHkZQ
Paul.
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Many thanks Paul . . all taken on board so to speak but my understanding of winches is zero . . but I have ideas and I'll run them past you, and anyone else who can help.
Build a moc-up of the space and possible access points (as suggested) and hatch openings . . . find what might be the best winch for the job (no idea), plus some kind of nylon thread, plus pulleys or tensioners etc and play around . . before affixing the deck or the hull framework.
The frames themselves limit the idea of feeding in a part built assembly (I tried it)
Another idea when the above is done is to begin laying the darned curved deck planking (the Bluenose deck for part curved part straight)
until the planking begins to reach the main deckhouse . . see sketch
Just thoughts
Just looked closely at all the parts . . am I scared. Yup !
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Yes with you Jon the slow steady approach will win out and be well worth it in the end !
Curved planking is going to be an interesting challenge - I have cut hatches in between planks (where black caulking normally goes)
after a deck is complete, it was nerve-racking using my favourite tool a scalpel, end result works well you hardly notice the join -
just takes an age, a steady hand and lots of new blades !!
Recently discovered 'Olfa' 30 degree Snap-Off knives with incredibly sharp blades which are stronger and stay sharper than 10A scalpel,
plus less fiddly than swapping surgical blades - one of these would work well cutting 'what is likely to be the most important cut on the entire model'. Lol.
Paul.
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Thank you Mr Zippy
I may moc up a test area first . . and I too use a 10A scalpel
Jon
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Thoughts and ideas from a novice . . . .
Would this rubbish sketch have any chance of working.
Bear in mind this is hopefully going to become primarily a display item and if a couple of days each year this Norfolk wind subsides and she floats, stays kinda upright and kinda 'sails' . . I'll be very content. This is a old gentleman's pond yacht !
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Food for thought (even more)
Ballast
I've done a very rough tank test and I'm wondering if a deeper weighted removable keel may be an option . . .
She has quite a lot of 'stuff' above the waterline, weighing in at near on a kilo, with lead ballast inside she its too low in the water for my liking . . too little ballast and she's somewhat unstable . . and I need to avoid water ingress . . . so . . .
what if I cast a couple of captive nuts (in resin) inside the bottom 'fin' of the keel. The 2 small holes would not be visible when the boat is on display and I could then mess about with trim, depth of add-on keel and weight after the model is built.
Your 'expert' thoughts please . . . with a cherry on the top of course :}
Jon
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Good thinking - the lower the weight the better ! and potentially less required to create the same effect.
I've watched the removable deck versions video in detail and now thinking his two winches are only controlling the main and jib,
the rear mizzen? looks to be doing its own thing - a slight cop out in my view, Gary Webbs 2 masted models all seem to sail very well.
Paul
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Many thanks Paul . . seems to be the way to go eh !
I'd like the mizzen to also work, purely for aesthetics . . . can they all 'play out' on the same side . . if so I'll need about 300mm of cable movement off the drum winch (I need simplicity as first RC build)
Next bit of advice for all . . . what's a good starter kit for the RC stuff. I think I need a transmitter and receiver . . a double spooled winch (spool diameter and rotation to length required ratio ?) and some batteries, and a steering server.
Also something to link the steering server to the rudder top, and a reliable idler pulley and spring . . . . . and where does the aerial go ?
It'll be easier to install these bits early on as long as I can 'just' get to them as needed later
Jon
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Water outlets rough formed c/o Mr Dremel and a metal strip clamped at the appropriate datum . . and the very beginnings of the cabin thing (50 more parts to complete this bit).
The rough looking hull is where the masking tape pulled the protective film away.
The many blocks are horribly tiny and each comprise 7 or more parts . . how I'd love to find some ready-made . . . .
I'm going to slowly build all the tiny deck bits while trying to source info on the r/c stuff.
I think the next job will be to fabricate a stand to hold the thing upright during the build !
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Well then . .
I've taken the plunge and ordered a basic radio set, a steering servo and a 2 turn winch servo which will give me about 160mm of travel for the sails. This suits the mizzen, almost suits the jib but it'll mean hooking the sheet to the mainsail about 160mm from the mast . . I do hope this works.
I'm making s l o w progress with the deck fittings . . . bought a tiller thingy and rudder rod, test trying a 'planked hatch cover (mmm . .) and spending ages sanding of the burnt edges of everything . . hey ho !
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Not much to show as yet, perhaps in a day or two . .
For now the 12 timber parts of the mainmast have been put together and rough sanded . . . and because I want to make an access through the deck I've made a rig that follows the curves of the frames and I'll clamp the deck down onto this and build it there . . then later I'll drop the framing assembly and R/C stuff into the hull in one piece, cut the access in the deck and finish the planking and finally glue this onto the framework. There are several other considerations during this and I'll detail this as and when.
See y'all soon with pics hopefully !
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Updates . . .
I have decided (r or w) to sit the deck on a rig as there will need to be some cutting for R/C access and test holes for the sheets.
This will be test fitted into the hull at various stages to ensure all is well.
I also have to consider strengthening the chain plates etc to take the higher stress load
The deck will be then roughly fixed to the framework and the working parts installed and tested prior to finally fitting the framework into the hull and adding the pre-planked deck . .
I have no idea as yet how the R?C unit works. I have 2 and 4 turn sheet winches, a steering servo, transmitter with matched receiver . . but I assume the receiver needs a power supply. No idea. Help please !
The strips along the center of the deck are sanded and primed (not stained as too irregular looking) . . after the deck is sanded I will have to carefully add an appropriate colour (laugh) . . and there is a minor length issue at the bow with needed some fiddling !
Two rows of outside planking are being added now (pic) . . inner row is un-glued so don't panic.
Sheesh !
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Stuff . . help please . .
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The rig follows the actual framing profile . .
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I have no idea as yet how the R?C unit works. I have 2 and 4 turn sheet winches, a steering servo, transmitter with matched receiver . . but I assume the receiver needs a power supply. No idea. Help please !
You will need a receiver power supply to power both it and the servo and winch. The standard is a 4.8V NiMh pack , these are sold as receiver packs. Alternatively you can use a 6V NiMh pack also available as receiver packs. The 6V would probably be better for driving a sail winch as they use more power than a servo.
Jim
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JimG . . thank you, but . . and this is a complete novice asking . .
Seems I go find a battery pack and plug it in somewhere, but no idea where. Do all 3 bits somehow connect to this battery pack, and I assume differing voltages will not harm ?
The instructions, for what they were worth . . . said virtually nothing.
Many thanks
Jon
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Hi Jon, basically the receiver has a set of connectors on the top, these are for connecting the servos and battery to. The plugs on the end of the wires from the servos and sail winch plug onto these connectors and receive power and the controlling signal from them. The connectors are generally numbered with one of them labelled BAT, this is the one where the battery connects to. The voltage of the battery is not too critical as most servos can take up to 6V ( this allows for 4 non rechargeable cells at 1.5V each..) A rechargeable battery is recommended to power the receiver and servos as they would soon flatten non rechargeable ones.
Jim
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Hi Jon,
An on/off switch would be useful as well. You can buy a switch harness which has a plug on one end to go into the receiver as Jimg has said, and has a socket on the other end for the battery pack to plug into. Some harnesses have a second socket for charging the battery pack but that's optional as long as you can reach the batteries to unplug them for charging.
Ralph
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Jim and Ralph
So very grateful . . this is all beginning to make sense . . . at last. Simpler than I thought.
Off to the model shop soon to get a battery pack and a switch . . then I'll give the winches a try out on the desk !
I bought 2 sail winches, a 4 turn and a 2 turn . . which give 12.5 inches and 6.25 inches of travel. The sails of course are all of different sizes so the plan is (at present) to fit a boom under the larger jib sail with a 2-1 block from the sheet, similarly the mizzen, and a 1-1 on the main boom . . again I will rig up a testing system prior to installing.
I'll post pics in a day or so as off out much of today
Again . . thank you for the much needed help
Jon
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Pics so far . . nothing is fixed in place except the vertical framing and a few outer deck planks
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I need to find a way to connect steering servo to rudder . . and a small pulley and tension spring near the bow to give about 14 inches of line travel
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Calcs . . . . :embarrassed:
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Hello Smileyjohn how are you getting on with your project?
regards
Roy