Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Dry Dock / Shipyard: Builds & Questions => Pleasure boats, Sports, Race, Power and Leisure Boats: => Topic started by: Philipsparker on May 14, 2008, 08:53:31 PM

Title: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Philipsparker on May 14, 2008, 08:53:31 PM
I'm refurbishing a 46 inch long Fairey Huntsman that I bought at an auction. It's designed to take a small diesel but we are a non-IC club and anyway I prefer electric. The previous builder fitted a 6V motor that according to the sticker on the body produces 6000RPM - on the water the boat is stately. Trouble is a Huntsman should be fast.

Any suggestions for a suitable powerplant ?

Pics at: http://philsworkbench.blogspot.com/search/label/Fairey%20Huntsman

Thanks

Phil
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Shipmate60 on May 14, 2008, 09:27:32 PM
MFA 850 on 12 volts will run about 9000 rpm or a Graupner 700 BB Turbo on 12 volts will give good performance.
What batteries are you using, might be worth using 9.6 volt Minim to save considerable weight.

Bob
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: DickyD on May 14, 2008, 09:35:40 PM
Read your blog Phil.
Would like to point out that you are more likely to get more speed from a 2 bladed prop than you are from a 3 or 4 bladed one.
Better still a 2 bladed prop with a fine not coarse pitch to it. ;)
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Stavros on May 14, 2008, 10:55:37 PM
Hi have tried both Mfa and Graupener in mine dammed thing wont plane it is such a heavy craft that really it need an IC in it.The only other thing I can suggest is to pm Ac Razor on this forum he knows a thing or two about Brushless motors,and go down the brushless route

Stavros
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Shipmate60 on May 14, 2008, 10:57:49 PM
Stav, or go for 2 shafts running 700 BB turbos on 14.4 volts

Bob
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Stavros on May 14, 2008, 11:03:34 PM
Now you got me thinking again,boy you dont half cost me some money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


stavros
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Shipmate60 on May 15, 2008, 08:27:00 AM
You cant take it with you so use some of it now!!

Bob
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Philipsparker on May 15, 2008, 09:48:30 AM
I don't fancy 2 shafts as it would mean big changes to the hull. Currently I'm using a 6V jelly cell as a couple of these provides all the ballast I need. 12V seemed inevitable though so I'll look at the MFA I think.

One thing i don't understand is how come a 2 blade prop gives more speed than a 3 blade ? Surely the later will move more water on each revolution ?

Phil
philsworkbench.blogspot.com (http://philsworkbench.blogspot.com)
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Stavros on May 15, 2008, 10:09:40 AM
Phil if you are going down that route form goodness sake buy the Graupener 700bb it is cheaper than the mfa and revs higher,fit a 45mm 2 blade prop try 5mm +/- of htis


Stavros
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Shipmate60 on May 15, 2008, 03:18:07 PM
There is another way, but it depends if you have the room.
You can use a car blower motor on 12 volts, they rev ABOUT 5000, but fit a large prop, at least 2 inches in diameter.
You can then use the power of the motor instead of pure revs,
Rather like the fast electrics powered by a geared motor.
How did I come to this, I powered a twin screw tug with 2 blower motors on 50 mm plus five bladed props.
She had 3 x 12 volt 7AH batteries and still managed to plane!!!

Bob
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: red181 on May 16, 2008, 12:34:19 AM
here is the combo that WILL get you to plane, its tried and tested in my 42" Huntsman 28, currently being used in my Fireboat whilst the Huntsman is being refurbished.

Graupner 700BB Turbo, 12v. This motor will go up to over 20v, get to the max nominal voltage, water cooled

2 x 9.6 4600 nimh's, wired to double your volts, however I dont know if your esc will handle this, mine will

3 blade 40mm brass prop, tried all the other sizes, 2 blade, "x" props etc etc . I dont think I have finally sorted this yet, I think I can go a bit bigger, but this prop on the slightly shorter Fireboat gives longest run time, best speed,  its a play off really, I set 15 mins flat out running as a benchmark, and achieved almost 25mins tonight, A good charger is esential!

The rudder was causing a nightmare, and was making the bow submerge on fast turns. Thanks to help of 2 other mayhemers tonight its sorted beautifully. I cut almost all of the rudder off on the prop side of the rudder, and some off the side at the rear of the boat (looking side on) making it more like a racing boat rudder. I have infact cut too much off, but at least I now know the theory. Unfortunately, the play off this time is low speed turns are now the turning circle of the QE2 on the Mersey!, cant have everything, hence I know too much is cut off

To maintain a "scale " plane, the bow was coming too far off the water, moved the batteries more central.

A similar performance, but no more than 15mins run time was with 2 x 8.4v 3300 nimh's wired to double volts, these packs wher too long to have more central.
A video of the boat running pre rudder improvement is in a thread "major problem turning boat" 2nd half is the speed you want, on the 8.4's, now its faster on the 9.6's, and turns beautifully

Hope that helps,

Paul
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Philipsparker on May 16, 2008, 10:28:17 AM
Paul

This sounds good - what ESC are you using ? I've currently got an Electrolize unit fitted but that's only good to 10A so I'll need to upgrade.

Thanks

Phil
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: DickyD on May 16, 2008, 10:54:26 AM
A good speed controller is the Overlander 50 amp  (20amp reverse) with BECC. You just plug it in and go, no setting up.

A Model World do a good price on these.

Just as an aside a chap at our club has a wooden MTB about 36" long and quite heavy and his battery pack is made up of D cells and is 12v 9000mAh.!!
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: red181 on May 16, 2008, 01:22:27 PM
Hi Phil,
I have a ripmax seasprint esc, (with bec)that will cope with 21v, and is water cooled, Luckily I got it with my Huntsman off ebay. I also got recently a 12v Mtroniks supertruck esc, no load limit! off ebay, its worth searching the car stuff also.  Mtroniks are waterproof, and this will power 2 motors, it was approx £25 I think. The amp draw on this set up, holding the boat, so prob not that accurate was 15amps, and thats not the stall current, so your esc will not handle this set up. I also had a 20 amp mtroniks that kept cutting out until I water cooled the motor, but according to mtroniks I was at the limit of the esc
Did you see the video? is that the sort of performance you want?
Hope this helps,
Paul
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: FullLeatherJacket on May 16, 2008, 01:47:56 PM
My oppo in Australia has sent me some very interesting motors for testing. Here's one of them:
(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u136/131251milbs/DarkeHorse01.jpg)

John's blurb says:
"700 3:1 Planetary (Actual ratio 3.3:1)
6v = 2120 RPM
12v = 4240 RPM
24v = 8480 RPM
33v = 11,600 RPM
Under load they don't drop RPM very much.
They absolutely love 33+V on a 55mm 3 blade brass prop (Type A Raboesch; FLJ)....two of these get a large 49" - 50" model (Large Perkasa/Huntsman size; average weight 13-14 Kg) up close to 30kph with no more than a 20A fuse in each motor circuit"

As you can see, everything is water-cooled and the gearbox has a separate lubrication spout. This is the way the Aussies do it, chaps - LOTS of volts. Anyone for a barbied 'roo?

FLJ  8)
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: banjo on May 16, 2008, 03:22:26 PM
 ;)
On the "Pond" in Basingstoke, home of innovation, there is an old Gent running a 48" Huntsman, with all the additions including a knitted doll,so its really heavy, with a ginormous watercooled brushless motor in it.
It is like a rocket ship.
Next time he is down the pond I'll get some details and a pic.

FLJ, That Motor looks the dogs...when can I buy one?

Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: DickyD on May 16, 2008, 04:19:46 PM
Graupner 700BB

Specification

Nominal voltage 12 V
Operating voltage range 7,2 ... 19,2 V
No-load rpm 11600 min–1
No-load current drain 2 A
Current drain at max. efficiency 12,5 A
Current drain when stalled 43 A
Max. efficiency without gearbox 75 %
Length of case, excl. shaft 67 mm
Diameter 44 mm
Free shaft length 14 mm
Shaft diameter 5 mm
Weight 350 g
   

Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: banjo on May 16, 2008, 05:56:30 PM
 O0
Thats the setup I have in my glass 34"

Does what it says on the tin...
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Philipsparker on May 16, 2008, 07:10:45 PM
Hi Phil,
I have a ripmax seasprint esc, (with bec)that will cope with 21v, and is water cooled, Luckily I got it with my Huntsman off ebay. I also got recently a 12v Mtroniks supertruck esc, no load limit! off ebay, its worth searching the car stuff also.  Mtroniks are waterproof, and this will power 2 motors, it was approx £25 I think. The amp draw on this set up, holding the boat, so prob not that accurate was 15amps, and thats not the stall current, so your esc will not handle this set up. I also had a 20 amp mtroniks that kept cutting out until I water cooled the motor, but according to mtroniks I was at the limit of the esc
Did you see the video? is that the sort of performance you want?
Hope this helps,
Paul

Yes, that performance looks pretty good to me. It's faster than I would want for the fireboat (I don't like to see them up on the prop like that but then that's just me) but the Huntsman is bigger so it will be slightly slower. I'll get searching for the right gear. I know the ESC is going back in the spares box but I'm sure I'll find another kit for it...

Incidentally, has anyone ever tried one of these : http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/50A-ESC-Speed-Controller-for-RC-Boat_W0QQitemZ130223132194QQihZ003QQcategoryZ140972QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/50A-ESC-Speed-Controller-for-RC-Boat_W0QQitemZ130223132194QQihZ003QQcategoryZ140972QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) it looks like a bargain.

Phil
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: DickyD on May 16, 2008, 07:29:52 PM
Has the same spec as the one I suggested earlier, might be alright but it is more than £20 cheaper than mine if you dont include the postage. Cheap as chips, do you like to gamble seeing as its going to cost you at least £13.50 with postage and you might not get it for a fortnight ?
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: cbr900 on May 17, 2008, 02:14:38 PM
Phil.

Go for it mate, I have bought about ten of these ESC's and have not had a dud one yet..........


Roy
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: John W E on May 17, 2008, 02:50:34 PM
HELLO one and all

FLJ I have to ask where we are going to get 33 volts from in a boat  ::) that is a NiCAD pack made up of 27 cells approximately or 3 x 12 volt batteries connected in series or a diesel generator or an inverter to step up the voltage - unless we can get the voltage through Lipo-packs.

I was always lead to believe an electric motor is the most efficient at its top end operating voltage.  I presume also it would be in the region of 36 volts for that particular motor.

So, as we drop the voltage down to 6 volts; surely the efficiency would drop off drastically and no gear box would bring back the efficiency of that.

Ah, just as a thought; Ghosty could possibly come up with a NUCLEAR FUSION BATTERY  :-\ :-\ ???

Aye
john e
bluebird
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: FullLeatherJacket on May 17, 2008, 03:06:35 PM
HELLO one and all

FLJ I have to ask where we are going to get 33 volts from in a boat  ::) that is a NiCAD pack made up of 27 cells approximately or 3 x 12 volt batteries connected in series or a diesel generator or an inverter to step up the voltage - unless we can get the voltage through Lipo-packs.

Aye
john e
bluebird

I'm simply passing on what I've been told, John. I think these guys use BIG NiMH packs; my oppo has sent a video which includes some shots of a model which has 2 x 24 packs (48 cells) on board! Mind you, it is 54" long. These Aussies don't muck about, me duck.

FLJ
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: red181 on May 17, 2008, 03:24:54 PM
Phil I would be tempted to stay with UK supplier, incase of problems, and extra import tax. I assume that speed controller has both forward and reverse, not forward OR reverse, I have seen this with imports from far east!

FLJ, looking at the motor spec comparisons, to achieve similar rpm, yours have to carry 33v, thats a lot of battery weight compared to the 19v for the graupner, and Phil is looking for speed, as I was, so weight is the enemy here, just a thought! O0 When I ran the 700 at 12v, then went up to 19v, the difference was very noticeable, so I assume its better to be at the top end of the nominal voltage range to achieve the best performance.
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: djrobbo on May 17, 2008, 03:37:45 PM
Hi phil and dicky.............i've got five of those chinese e.s.c's .........they are the dogs nuts.............work perfectly and reliably......they have becc built in and are waterproof...........only down side.......when you get one change the battery switch for a decent one........all of mine failed :'(....but if you replace them with a decent on-off switch , problem solved......

           hope this helps................regards.....bob.
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: FullLeatherJacket on May 17, 2008, 03:52:17 PM
Hey! Don't shoot me! I'm just the piano player!!

Like I said, I'm just passing on what I've been told viz these motors are NOT your standard Graupner 700 fare. No-load RPM is all very well, but if you stick a 55mm 3-blade brass prop onto a direct-drive 700 and dunk it into the oggin then I would imagine it might object a bit. These geared jobbies don't slow down that much, and there's no denying that these guys actually run their models with such a set-up. I haven't met an Australian yet who has much time for theory. I will do some tests and maybe publish the results here.

BTW I have no plans at the moment to import these motors so I have no axe to grind here. Just trying to go at the problem from a different angle........... and I did design the Huntsman so I reckon I'm entitled to an opinion  8)

Best one I ever saw had a 15cc 4-stroke Channel Island Special in it............sounded as wonderful as it performed!

Suit yourselves, eh?

FLJ
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Philipsparker on May 17, 2008, 03:56:10 PM
Thanks for the advice. I think I'll stick with the UK suppliers for now. If I ever plan another big, fast boat I'll look at getting one of these ESC's in though.

However, I've been pricing the bits up and to go down the Graupner motor route will cost slightly over £100.

According to thier advert, MFA can supply a Torpedo Power 850 pack (www.modelflightaccessories.com/products/powerpacks.shtml (http://www.modelflightaccessories.com/products/powerpacks.shtml))for £49.95 plus 20 quid for the battery. OK so I get mechanical speed control for that money but I'm told these are OK if you look after them and for this model I can live with this. Question is, how much worse is this cheaper option ?

Thanks

Phil
philsworkbench.blogspot.com (http://philsworkbench.blogspot.com)
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Stavros on May 17, 2008, 07:31:52 PM
Sorry to say this but dont know where you are getting that the graupener route is over £100 absoloute drivel .Just checked price at Red bank Models motor is £13.95 ,speed controller £31.99 making a total of £45.94 Which low and behold wonder of wonders is £4 squid cheaper and a far better motor in my opinion.The Mfa speed controller is the old fashoned bobs board type and I have burnt so many out on a MFA 850 that I will not give them time of day.Have a serious think about saving 4 squid I would




Stavros
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Philipsparker on May 17, 2008, 08:12:58 PM
Red bank models is a new name to me. I apologise for not knowing every suppliers catalogue intimately.

I'm guessing that you are saying I should use the Viper 25 - not any of the other speed controls mentioned so far. That suits me as I like Viper kit, it's well made and waterproof.

The £13.95 motor is the Graupner 700 Turbo not the 700BB turbo. The BB I guess stands for Ball Bearing meaning it's ballraced so will wear out slightly faster but for my purposes will be OK.

Any suggestions on the battery ? If possible I'd prefer a lead-acid as the boat needs the weight (2 X 6v's get it to waterline at present) but I suspect that a pair of 6V ni-cad packs wired to give 12V would work better. The motor is good up to 14v even though it's rated at 9.6V.

Phil
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Stavros on May 17, 2008, 09:06:57 PM
I would use 2 x 7.2 stick pack to give 14 v and ballast accordingly


Stavros
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: red181 on May 18, 2008, 01:14:46 AM
Phil, def go with Stravros on this one, re prices at Redbank, nice guy, situated in Blackpool (I think) the motor even as a bb cost me £15.00, just keep your eye on fleabay, I am sure Mark at A Modelworld had them at the recent Ellesmere show very reasonably priced also (mayhem member)Re the esc, I had a viper 20amp originally, it just kept cutting out, and my recent amp draw test, although holdiing the boat, was just over 15amps, so you might want to go a bit higher than 25amps, also I am sure the max volts on the viper is 12v, meaning you cant get up to the max volts for the motor, and as I stated previously, it makes a difference getting to the max volts. My 12v 700bb turbo is up to 19.2v
 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mtroniks-Super-E-Truck-Mega-RV-ESC-Speed-Control_W0QQitemZ180243241551QQihZ008QQcategoryZ34063QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

Lead acid batteries will be useless, they dont have the "punch" when delivering the amps, you will be able to put put around for ages, but once you go to speed, couple of mins its all over. I tried 3 x 6v lead acids, wired for 18v, thinking it would be ok, I got exactly 4 mins on the plane, then they where finished!thats why the fast electric guys dont use them.
Use nicad or nimh, I prefer nimh as they have no "memory effect", meaning tney dont have to be fully charged or discharged to use. I also tried lipo 3 cell 11.1v, wasnt  that impressed, although lighter in weight

Here is what you need (imo!! O0) or similar!

  http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mtroniks-Super-E-Truck-Mega-RV-ESC-Speed-Control_W0QQitemZ180243241551QQihZ008QQcategoryZ34063QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

But even this isnt high enough volts for a bb turbo, if you run it as I do at 19.2v

 http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/standard_motors.html for motor price comparison

FLJ's link looks nice, it depends what your battery budget is, I used componet shop to specifically make mine up so they fitted nice in the hull

Keep at it! O0

Paul
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: FullLeatherJacket on May 18, 2008, 06:31:10 AM
If possible I'd prefer a lead-acid as the boat needs the weight (2 X 6v's get it to waterline at present)
Phil
Phil
This is a planing hull, not a tanker. It needs ballasting down like a fish needs a bicycle. The static waterline should be treated as decoration. You should only add weight to adjust the trim, and that's only if you can't move existing loads around a bit.
FLJ
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: das boot on May 18, 2008, 07:55:05 AM
This is probably no help at all, but yonks ago I had the MFA Spearfish with a watercooled Bullet running on 20 x D cells and it went like stink. My ex-step brother in law had the bigger kit [Fantome?] that would'nt hardly move with the same set up, he ended up using TWO Bullets to get it to run.

As I said...no help at all.







I'll get me coat..... ::)
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Philipsparker on May 18, 2008, 01:02:22 PM
If possible I'd prefer a lead-acid as the boat needs the weight (2 X 6v's get it to waterline at present)
Phil
Phil
This is a planing hull, not a tanker. It needs ballasting down like a fish needs a bicycle. The static waterline should be treated as decoration. You should only add weight to adjust the trim, and that's only if you can't move existing loads around a bit.
FLJ


I didn't explain myself properly - the batteries move the trim rather than lowering the hull in the water. With them in, the deck is horizontal, with them out and a lighter set of cells the bow points down. There isn't anything else with any weight inside so I suspect once the proper power pack is installed I'll need to pull the CG back with a bit of lead.

Phil
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Philipsparker on May 18, 2008, 01:31:30 PM
OK

How about this set up:

Speed 700 turbo motor
Viper 25 Speed control
2 X 6V 2100mAH battery packs wired in series to give 12V

Will this get the boat on the plane ?

I've struck with the 6V packs as the speed controller won't take more than 12v input. They are also cheap and readily available. And useful for the size of models I normally build. I appreciate the boat won't be a rocket, but then our water isn't huge  and I just want it to look nice. That little pile is still £65.84 from Red Bank - more than the boat cost me but then that's normally the case.

Phil
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: FullLeatherJacket on May 18, 2008, 02:00:22 PM
Phil

Not a prayer, mate.

Forgive the crude imitation of rocket science here:
Our HP61F R/C glow motor put out about 750 Watts, with very little weight of fuel carried (16ozs of ethanol/oil mixture). On 12v a single electric motor would need to pull 62.5A to produce the same oomph. If you do the maths on the Oz set-up I outlined earlier then you'll find that two motors on 33v @ 15A chuck out about 1 kW total, so that's in with more than a decent shout to do the business. Of course, that's also with a large number of heavy cells that need to be humped around in addition to the power required to get a big hull up on the plane.
At the very best, your 25A ESC, 2100 mAh cells and 12v motor combo would be good for no more than 300W.....for less than five minutes.

Suit yourself.

FLJ
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Shipmate60 on May 18, 2008, 02:06:46 PM
There are always more than 1 way to get the desired result.
1 is to have a "small" motor turning a small prop at lots of revs.
OR
A larger motor turning a large prop slower.
What we are looking at is the volume of warer that can be "pumped" aft.
Yes the 70BBturbo will do it, but at high consumption and low run times.

Bob
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: explorer750 on May 18, 2008, 03:52:45 PM
I run the 12v graupner 700BB turbo in a 28'' boat, that goes quick on 14v.

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7763.0 (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7763.0)
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Philipsparker on May 18, 2008, 05:18:45 PM
I think what we are saying here is that to get this boat on the water, performing properly (i.e running on the plane for more than 5 minutes) is going to hugely expensive. I've seen speed controllers costing well in excess of £100 mentioned, pairs of Australian motors and very high power battery packs.

What I'm not any clearer about is if it's worth bothering to do this. At 50 quid or so it seemed like an interesting project since I picked the boat up cheaply. At well over the ton, if you include ALL the bits, it just looks less appealing. I've obviously radically underestimated the commitment required to do this. I think I'll retreat and go and do something a bit easier.

Thanks for all your help.

Phil
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Shipmate60 on May 18, 2008, 05:39:38 PM
No Phil not necessarily.
To go the "Fast Electric" route you will need equipment that can handle huge currents, this can be expensive.
If you go for say a car blower motor you can use low power electrics or even the original 4 stage switch.
But the main expense will be a large prop if it will fit the hull.
She wont be quite as fast as for the same power she will be slightly heavier, but acceptable performance can be gained.
Most small motors when put under load will drop a surprising amount of rpm.
A blower motor wont as it is a much more torquey motor.
Before spending loads of cash I would suggest you ask for others who have different set ups then you decide.
Yes the 700BB turbo route will definitely work in your boat, but with heavy speed controllers, wiring specialist batteries and short run times.
As FLJ says, its up to you!!

Bob
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Philipsparker on May 18, 2008, 08:58:10 PM
Well, I would get an 80mm diameter prop in without alteration. How fast does that need to turn to move this beast I wonder ?

At present the boat is fitted with a 6V Decaperm motor, or at least that is what it looks like.

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2183/2503169936_c91a2ce00a.jpg)

The thing has plenty of torque and according to the sticker, revs at 6000rpm. Currently the boat has a 55mm diameter two blade prop. Now this isn't the sort of thing you put in a model on a whim so I wonder what the original builder was planning.

Phil
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Shipmate60 on May 18, 2008, 09:20:06 PM
Phil,
Deccaperms aren't my favourite motor.
The geared end will give you about 2750 rpm.
The reduction ratio if i remember correctly should be 2.5 or 2.75:1.
You could try the biggest prop that will comfortably fit with this motor.
If it doesn't go as you would like, sell that motor, on eBay they go for about £25-£30 and use a car blower motor from a scrapyard.
These cost between £5-£10.
I used to use Mk 3 Cortina blower motors, they are open cage with spherical bearings and run about 5000 rpm.
But they are a little rare these days.
On my Sirmar Girl class tug I used a deccaperm and about a 3 inch prop and she planed!
Bow right out of the water!!!
Didn't quite look right on a tug though.
Did you see the pic of the cruiser on the Kirklees thread, might be worth waiting to see if BunkerBarge can come back with some more details, and you can see by the pics if that is how you want yours to go.

Bob
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Philipsparker on May 19, 2008, 02:18:10 PM
Since the cheapest test option is to keep the existing motor and fit a whacking great prop I'm going to order an 80mm diameter one and see what happens. Then if needs be I'll go hunting Cortina parts. If I do that though, I'll keep the motor as it's a £100 job and might fit very nicely into something else.

Phil
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Shipmate60 on May 19, 2008, 04:30:09 PM
One of the problems of Deccaperms is because they are so expensive they are expected to be all things to all men.
At the end of the dat they are just a motor running at just below 3000 rpm.
They are good for large scale warships with scale running gear and tugs.
But a 550 motor on 3:1 gearbox in my opinion is a far superior set up.
There are lots of older cruiser type hulls fitted with these and very few work as the owners want them to as they are fitted with a scale prop.
Your model will never be a fact electric with this set up but may be acceptable to you.
It might also be worth trying a small 6 volt battery to see if she will lift.


Bob
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Philipsparker on May 19, 2008, 09:10:51 PM
Well, I've ordered a big prop. Once I get back from holiday I'll fit it and see how satisfied I am. Next stop a 540 or faster. If that doesn't work I'll have to go to the scrapyard and see if they have any old Cortina's.

That is unless the Premium Bonds come up and then the fast electric route is back on.

Thanks

Phil
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: red181 on May 19, 2008, 09:12:55 PM
Phil, I think you are missing the point mate...

Plenty of good info has been put on this thread, you just need to disect from it what you want. For example, you have seen my video, and agree that is the performance you want. So, what did it cost, for say a £50 budget.

OK, the link to the 12v graupner 700bb turbo I posted was £24.00, however the non bb was £15 I think, without having to read it all again!. This will take up to 14v, as mentioned earlier, the best battery combo is 2 x 7.4v, (min 3000 packs to give an acceptable run time) wired to give 14.8v, so now you are at max volts and max performance for the 14v motor which with this combo will run forf15 to 18 mins approx. Those batteries will prob cost £12 each approx. Dont buy 2nd hand here, not worth it
The link to the esc, its a 14v esc, so you are ok here. THat ebay seller regularly sells mtroniks stuff, I think there is a link to mtroniks. Expect to pay £25, thats what I paid from that seller, just keep watching, so now up to £52 excluding postage, which is your budget.+

AS a comparison, mine will be faster, with the bb motor at 19v, and my batteries cost me £60, 2 x 4600 9.6v, the 4600 give it a longrer run time.  

It is a matter of what you want to spend, but at least you can see the results, it took me over 12 months to achieve that performance. Now... here is something, on thursday I am testing with a 600 bb speed turbo race motor, with will be on 9.6v, so if that works equally well, that will be a cheaper option for you
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Shipmate60 on May 19, 2008, 10:31:36 PM
pmdevlin,
I have seen your thread on the Fireboats thread, yes your system will work well, it is after all the fairly standard set up for fast boats.
The only difference on larger models is to put in 2 shafts.
I have a mate who runs large models very successfully with the twin screw set up.
It just depends if you want all out performance.
The Deccaperm running at 2750 will never give startling performance.
The MFA 850 will give better performance, and the 700BB Turbo will give startling performance.
Unfortunately all this was explained via pm and not in open forum.
But half the fun is to find alternatives at acceptable cost for acceptable performance and acceptable run times.
The owner of the model has to decide what "acceptable" is.
These models were designed for motors such as the Tycol Torpedo, a slow running motor.
The model itself is of quite heavy construction.
All this will have a bearing in speed and duration.
At last years Wicksteed there was a Perkassa which ran quite well on an MFA 850 using a 12 volt 7 AH battery.
I persuaded the owner to try a 12 volt 5 AH battery, the performance increase was impressive.
But the run times obviously suffered.
It is all about which compromise you will accept, cost, duration or speed!!

Just my thoughts

Bob
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Stavros on May 19, 2008, 11:26:39 PM
I wonder who that chap was Bob


Stavros
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Shipmate60 on May 20, 2008, 12:28:07 AM
Feller called Dave, nice chap, dont think you will know him  ;)

Bob
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: red181 on May 20, 2008, 09:26:01 PM
Bob,
Never actually seen a boat run on twin screws, I would love to see how much better it is. I was trawling ebay earlier, and saw a 38" pt boat with triple motors! bet that moves! I was tempted to go to twin screw, but didnt think my building capabilities or pocket (extra batteries, motor etc) would allow. It is a heavy old boat (mines all ply) and I think I am asking it to perform better than it should, if you know what I mean,
My bench mark was planing speed, for 15 mins, anything better than that was a win, which has occured, but I still dont think I have sorted the prop, its been an interesting thread with some good input. I was suprised to see that a 12v 5ah (do you mean a lead acid?) produced good speed, when I tried that it was a failure.
Paul
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Stavros on May 20, 2008, 10:14:45 PM
Allright just for you I will put my hand up the MTB in question was mine it ran 2x Mfa850's a 12 7amp lead acid and yes it went a lot faster on the 12v 5amp batt.Run time for the 7amper was around 15 mins flat out, the 5amper around 10mins.
I have got a Hunts,am 49ins fiberglass and when I get around to it be fitting a pair of 700bb turbos both running 18v with 4x9.6 buggy packs it should fly running time wise havnt got a clue till I do it.

Stavros


Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Shipmate60 on May 21, 2008, 09:00:14 AM
The Gell Cell is still a good battery as long as you dont expect it to produce heavy current for long.
The 700 BB Turbos are well within the fast electric set up.
But motors such as MFA 850's only rev max 9000, but besause of their physical size are able to produce quite a lot of torque so a larger prop is well within their capability.
It is horses for courses really, stunning performance has a cost, the compromise is for acceptable performance/run times against cost.

Bob
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Philipsparker on May 28, 2008, 08:57:40 AM
Update:

Now I'm back from holiday I have replaced the punny 2 blade plastic prob with an 80mm diameter four blade brass one. If nothing else it looks a lot better.

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2086/2530632018_2fd80c0652.jpg)

Tests on our 15ft garden pool indicate that the boat shifts a lot faster - but I need to get it on some proper water to judge. I doubt we are on the plane yet but it might be fast enough for me. If not then a faster motor is the next stop.

Phil
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Philipsparker on May 29, 2008, 10:31:56 PM
We've now had a sail on the boating lake and the boat is a lot faster but still not quick enough. I've posted a video on my blog:

http://philsworkbench.blogspot.com/2008/05/not-quite-so-slow-huntsman.html (http://philsworkbench.blogspot.com/2008/05/not-quite-so-slow-huntsman.html)

Next stop will be the motor shop to get something without that annoying, whinny, gearbox !

Phil
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Martin [Admin] on May 29, 2008, 10:59:13 PM

OK, daft question time here:
The real Huntsman's, how fast are they?
( Not the racing ones, the run of the mill ones. )
What should the ride angle be?

Have a look at this video - the man talks an awful lot of sense!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jDJ9oKPrP8&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jDJ9oKPrP8&feature=related)

Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: HS93 (RIP) on May 29, 2008, 11:14:46 PM
This sort of angle

peter
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Shipmate60 on May 29, 2008, 11:24:49 PM
Phil,
That is running on about 2750 rpm, and yes what a whine!!
MFA 800's run about 4000 rpm so not much improvement.
MFA 850's run about 9000 rpm on 12 volts.
850's will give about 3 times the revs, but I am unsure about turning that big prop.
Might be worth trying to borrow 1 and try it.

Bob
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Philipsparker on May 30, 2008, 09:59:21 AM
The good news is that Howes have an MFA 850 in stock and I've found at the bottom of the boat bits box a Sea Rover 15A speed controller.

So I'll be taking the shaft to Howes later today to see what they can do. According to the guy on the 'phone they have the moter & coupling bits in so I'll see what I can do. I have the two blade prop as well but it never seemed to "bite" on the water. However I will try it with the new motor once fitted. The existing motor can go in a tugboat or coaster some day where it won't be required to spin the prop so fast - it's never worth throwing anything away !

Thanks

Phil
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Stavros on May 30, 2008, 10:04:50 AM
Phil woah the 850 WILL NOT throw an 80mm prop,max55mm 2 blader,and sorry but a 15amp speed controller is a big no no 20 amp minimum


Stavros
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: DickyD on May 30, 2008, 10:46:42 AM
From Howes web site.

Product Name Torpedo 850 Motor
Manufacturer MFA
Full Description 
Torpedo 850 Motor
Large 12V motor ideal for the President Perkasa and Huntsman.
Speed 9778 RPM.
Size: 70mm long 50mm diameter.
 
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Shipmate60 on May 30, 2008, 01:19:27 PM
Phil,
Sell the Deccaperm on here, always a good market for them, dont know why.

Bob
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Shipmate60 on May 30, 2008, 01:58:16 PM
MFA 850 on eBay now:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150251100333&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=005

Bob
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Shipmate60 on May 30, 2008, 02:24:49 PM
Or bite the bullet and go brushless like LifeboatPaul has on his.
A bit more expensive but good performance.

Bob
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Philipsparker on May 30, 2008, 06:05:51 PM
Too late - I have an MFA 850 from Howes. And a battery. And the bits to watercool it (can anyone give any instructions on this, where the inlet & outlet go for example). And a coupling. And some other bits. And a broken R/C surfer for another project.

And a swollen tum from a stop at the Harvester on the way back to the M40. I'm too full to any modelling at present. Good meal though...

Phil
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: DickyD on May 30, 2008, 06:25:45 PM
Hope the photo might help with the water cooling. The inlet is about 12mm from prop and slightly off centre in front of the prop.

I have also shown you what type of inlet and outlet I have used.   O0
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Shipmate60 on May 30, 2008, 09:11:15 PM
Phil,
I would just try her first without water cooling.
From cold if you just slowly open the throttle full to see if she reaches the performance you want.
The water cooling will only be used for prolonged running, not a quick burst.
It saves cutting the hull in case you dont need to with your chosen motor.
Do you have any 7.2 batteries that you can connect in series making 14.4 volts?

Bob
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Philipsparker on May 30, 2008, 10:48:45 PM
I'm going to start with 12V as that's the max the speed control can handle. I'll take the advice about the water cooling though for the minute. Tripling the RPM ought to make a bit of a difference.

Update as soon as I've stuck all the bits together.

Phil
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Bradley on May 31, 2008, 06:29:24 PM
Phil,
If you go to eBay and put in Emax as a search it will come up with lots of these outrunners at different sizes.  The ones on Paul's lifeboat are BL4030/10 and speed is quite impressive.  I have just ordered two - BL2826 - which are slightly smaller but, I hope, powerful enough for a Mersey.  The details given on eBay for each motor refer to their suitability for model aircraft but that gives you some idea of the power they put out.
Derek.   :police:
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Philipsparker on May 31, 2008, 07:00:47 PM
As I said - too late - I have the 850 and it's now fitted. If the "found in the bottom of the boat bits box" speed control hadn't shown why I'd taken it out of another boat by failing then I'd be done. I'll wait for the parcel from Westborne to finish up.

Give 12V the 850 seems to turn the prop into a fan. If it shifts water as well as it shifts air I should be happy.

Oh, and if anyone wants a Rescue Launch - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260246479059&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT&ih=016 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260246479059&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT&ih=016)

Thanks

Phil
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: grasshopper on June 04, 2008, 12:21:49 AM
The link to Ebay shows the Range Safety Launch from the MAP plans service in 1/12th scale - it's not an Aerokits model. I'm pretty sure it's the same as the model that Deans are doing in 1/24th scale.

Am I sad or what? still got the plans from when my brother made it late 60s ? paid 12/6 (shillings, came after groats) then passed them on to me - still on my list to make.















Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Shipmate60 on June 04, 2008, 01:13:34 AM
Phil,
This is half the fun getting her running as you want to.
Too simple to just bung a 700 BB Turbo in.

Bob
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Philipsparker on June 04, 2008, 08:01:04 PM
Well, the boat has been up on the plane ! 850 motor, big prop and the biggest Electronize speed control did the job.

The only problem was I had smoke coming off the motor afer 10 minutes ! I suspect the prop is too big as replacement with the original 2 blade version seemed to make things better. Anyone want to explain why a 2 blade give me as much speed as a 4 blade ?

More on my blog: philsworkbench.blogspot.com/2008/06/fairey-planes.html (http://philsworkbench.blogspot.com/2008/06/fairey-planes.html) - and you might enjoy the Bouncing Betty stuff as well (don't worry, it's safe for work)

Phil O0
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Shipmate60 on June 04, 2008, 08:46:37 PM
Phil,
The larger prop on the 850 motor supplies such a load that it slows the motor down.
This loading increases the power consumption, as the amps rise it generates heat.
When the heat generated exceeds the heat available to be dissipated from the motor the temperature rises in the motor.

Bob
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Philipsparker on June 04, 2008, 10:45:00 PM
Right - so a smaller prop means more revs which generates the same thrust as a bigger prop running slowly. BUT the smaller prop means less current draw which should mean a cooler motor AND longer battery life.

Presumably there is an optimum prop size which I'll have to work out through experimentation. My gut instinct is that a slightly bigger two blade prop would be better. The one under the boat at present looks too small  but I don't want to go too big - 50mm perhaps.

Phil
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Alastair_I on June 05, 2008, 10:05:29 AM
I acquired a secondhand Hunstman 31 with the 46" glassfibre hull a few weeks ago.

For the first time in my ownership it got it's hull wet yesterday and had a good run around the lake.  As supplied it had a Torpedo 850 with an X55 2-bladed prop powered by a 12V 7A lead acid battery.  The speed controller is a Sonik M3 (?? programmable I found the instructions on this forum posted quite recently).

Due to some TX problems I don't had the ESC set-up quite right.. but on full throttle it rose onto the plane quite nicely, and cruised on 3/4 throttle looking very smart.  The battery lost oomph quite quickly, but I was able to cruise for 20-30 mins before I had any concerns about retrieval.  I put that at part down to it being a possibly elderly battery with limited use in recent months (heavy dust on the boat when I acquired it).

Al

PS, has anyone ever commissioned brass or nickel-silver etched window frames for the Hunstman?
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: banjo on June 05, 2008, 11:11:38 AM
 O0
You are doing well with that sort of duration.
I had my Huntsman on the pond yesterday, its a 34", and got a running time of about 20 minutes on a 8.4V 4300 battery.  Thats pushing a 8.4V Graupner 700 BB Turbo.

 :)
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: red181 on June 06, 2008, 01:46:22 PM
Hi Alistair, Have you got any video of running with the lead acid? I cannot make mine perform without nimh's, curremtly flipping betweem 2 x 8.4v 3300 and 2 x 9.6v 4600, planing for about 25 mins. I tried a 12v lead acid, but after 5 mins it was tug boat speed, but would have lasted ages. By X55 prop, does that mean 55mm?

Re window frames, I did a template of paper, then transposed that to plasticcard, stuck the perspex on the frame as window, then stuck it to the boat. I then used small aluminium rivets (very difficult to get!) but dressmakers pins are similar, again glued in through pilot holes. Very time consuming, but look ok, if anything they are a littler big. I painted it in humbrol steel, and buffed it up a bit with a cloth.
Cannot work out how to do the air scoop thing, any ideas here (sorry to piggyback the thread) perhaps alaistair you could start a new thread?
Paul
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: banjo on June 06, 2008, 02:00:11 PM
 :)
For scoops... think about the shape of a spoon.....

then find and butcher some old ones....
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Stavros on June 06, 2008, 05:53:55 PM
Right - so a smaller prop means more revs which generates the same thrust as a bigger prop running slowly. BUT the smaller prop means less current draw which should mean a cooler motor AND longer battery life.

Presumably there is an optimum prop size which I'll have to work out through experimentation. My gut instinct is that a slightly bigger two blade prop would be better. The one under the boat at present looks too small  but I don't want to go too big - 50mm perhaps.

Phil

See My earlier posting on prop size which I did reccomend to you,have a sea queen on a 55mm with an 850 with no trouble at all


stavros
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: banjo on June 06, 2008, 07:15:10 PM
 O0
Stavros

Glad to see you know more about props and motors than radio controlling dustbins....
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Stavros on June 06, 2008, 10:46:56 PM
OOOOOOOHHHHHH O0


Stavros
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Alastair_I on June 15, 2008, 02:05:33 PM
Hi Alistair, Have you got any video of running with the lead acid? I cannot make mine perform without nimh's, curremtly flipping betweem 2 x 8.4v 3300 and 2 x 9.6v 4600, planing for about 25 mins. I tried a 12v lead acid, but after 5 mins it was tug boat speed, but would have lasted ages. By X55 prop, does that mean 55mm?

Re window frames, I did a template of paper, then transposed that to plasticcard, stuck the perspex on the frame as window, then stuck it to the boat. I then used small aluminium rivets (very difficult to get!) but dressmakers pins are similar, again glued in through pilot holes. Very time consuming, but look ok, if anything they are a littler big. I painted it in humbrol steel, and buffed it up a bit with a cloth.
Cannot work out how to do the air scoop thing, any ideas here (sorry to piggyback the thread) perhaps alaistair you could start a new thread?
Paul

I was all set ready with camcorder and tripod with me this morning, got her out and planing round to where the electric guys are (less weed launching by the sailing crowd).. when ..  dead in the water.  I'd maybe been running with her flat-out for 3 or 4 minutes.  Typical.. not a tug available this morning and she drifted beyond wading distance so it was a paddle out on the rescue boat.  Looks like the 15A fuse blew, but I'll get a tester on it later, no power to the ESC and an opaque bubble in the fuse.

It takes full power to plane with this motor/battery combination.  If you wanted outright performance I think you'd need the NiCads, but the Lead Acid is fine for a brief plane and cruise.

On the airscoops.. I've found someone that does stainless steel air-intake scoops for fast nitroboats.. going to see if he can produce a modified one for the Huntsman.  I wonder if he would also have the facilities to do the window frames if provided with templates..

Al
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: pomybill on June 19, 2008, 08:09:08 AM
My oppo in Australia has sent me some very interesting motors for testing. Here's one of them:
(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u136/131251milbs/DarkeHorse01.jpg)

John's blurb says:
"700 3:1 Planetary (Actual ratio 3.3:1)
6v = 2120 RPM
12v = 4240 RPM
24v = 8480 RPM
33v = 11,600 RPM
Under load they don't drop RPM very much.
They absolutely love 33+V on a 55mm 3 blade brass prop (Type A Raboesch; FLJ)....two of these get a large 49" - 50" model (Large Perkasa/Huntsman size; average weight 13-14 Kg) up close to 30kph with no more than a 20A fuse in each motor circuit"

As you can see, everything is water-cooled and the gearbox has a separate lubrication spout. This is the way the Aussies do it, chaps - LOTS of volts. Anyone for a barbied 'roo?

FLJ  8)
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: pomybill on June 23, 2008, 12:13:00 AM
Hi FLJ and other interested parties.
I have been in touch with John Darke the gentelman with "The Motors" and are they powerful! He is a most affable person to speak to and is full of very very good advice.
I have ordered two items from him (only small items) and eagerly await them arriving.
He has a very good catalogue and this can be obtained from him via Snail mail for those here in Aussie at;-

Darke's Enterprises P/L.
824 Kingston Rd.
Loganlea.
Qld 4131 
Phone 0419142192.
Fax 0738056038
e-mail   jdarke@optusnet.com.au     
I hope this is helpful and helps other modelers here in Aussie and maybe some offshore modelers who find it difficult to obtain parts and acsserories.
Regards Pomybill.
(I asked John's permission to post this and he said yes)
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Peter Fitness on June 25, 2008, 01:31:27 AM
Pomybill, I second your comments re John Darke. He visits our club in Ballina NSW, whenever we hold our Hobby Expos or regattas, bringing his beautifully set up sales trailer with him. He carries a great range of motors and related equipment, as well as general model boating supplies, and is full of information which he readily shares with anyone interested. His motors, sold under the Darke Horse brand, are excellent value for money, and are great performers.
Peter.
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: mndsw on July 31, 2008, 10:33:42 PM
Hello everyone,
I've read this thread with interest. Although I dont have a Huntsman, I do have a similar 48" long hull on my boat. The way the propshafts and motor mounts are epoxied in place gives me little choice in what motors I use. Its now using two Graupner 700 turbo 9.6v motors with an electronize 30 amp speed controller. The props are brass three bladed 36mm (?) I use a 12v gel cell to run it. I want to replace this heavy battery with something else. What do you suggest.
Any thoughts would be welcome.
Thanks,
Chris.
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: debssnal on August 08, 2008, 12:36:28 PM
hi,
you could try a tornado thumper 4250 brushless motor. power out put 720 watts.you can get 60amp boat esc from ebay for arould £30.00
the motor cost is £29.99 from over-tec
the motor is 96% efficient
720 watts is just under 1HP
600KV
you can run them on lead batterys ok and you can run the motor on 24volt
also you can use a lager prop
mfa 850 157watts   700bb around the same but only around 65% efficient
if you need more info you can email me

kind regrads
Alan
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: offshore1987 on August 16, 2008, 08:41:36 PM
Well, the boat has been up on the plane ! 850 motor, big prop and the biggest Electronize speed control did the job.

The only problem was I had smoke coming off the motor afer 10 minutes ! I suspect the prop is too big as replacement with the original 2 blade version seemed to make things better. Anyone want to explain why a 2 blade give me as much speed as a 4 blade ?

More on my blog: philsworkbench.blogspot.com/2008/06/fairey-planes.html (http://philsworkbench.blogspot.com/2008/06/fairey-planes.html) - and you might enjoy the Bouncing Betty stuff as well (don't worry, it's safe for work)

Phil O0

The linked vid on that blog is it flat out?  ??? :-\  it should be going way faster lol
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: DickyD on August 16, 2008, 09:00:36 PM
Tend to agree with offshore, way to slow, more like a Thames cruiser and definitely not on the plane. :-\
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: offshore1987 on August 16, 2008, 09:55:46 PM
Indeed  ???

Iv got the swordsman 2 ( i think its called ) with the 850 motor stock everything, and it runs about the same if not a tad faster than yours and thats with me runnin it on 6v  :o with a 12v it really plods along. I was usein it today in the sea ( il upload a pic of what she looks like ) I would guess yours if the same weight and same kinda hull ( i need a new 12v batt though as mine is totally naffed out )

I might be back down there again tomorrow if so il get some vid of her
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: offshore1987 on August 16, 2008, 10:42:50 PM
The boat

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc127/offshore1987/7259c606.jpg)

The sea

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc127/offshore1987/c452f350.jpg)

The 6v SPEED  :D

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc127/offshore1987/1ca6add4.jpg)

^ Thats against the tide going out too lol ( its running the stock prop or if it didnt come with a prop then i duno lol ) i cant remember if it come with a prop when i built it, but it has a 2 blader

Runnin on lead acid ( a big 6v not a little light one )

All the best

P.S i dont use water cooling either

Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: red181 on August 23, 2008, 12:47:50 AM
Hi offshore, I think phils huntsman is way heavier than yours, which looks like its fibreglass? Phil has an original ply construction, as I have, and it is a very heavy boat.
Looks nice to be sailing in the sea, I would like to try this, but worried about the damage salt water would do to all the ply and chrome fittings!
Chuck a  nimh at the max volts your motor will take and the performance will be a dramatic difference (but less run time) lead acid batteries will not deliver the fast speed to get these boats successfully on the plane, thats why the racing guys dont use them, plus the extra weight of a lead acid O0
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Barry Boy on August 24, 2008, 05:48:03 PM
 I have 2 of them Johnson Darke horse motors with 2-1 reduction boxes and 50mm Standard 3 blade brass props from PROP SHOP
fitted in my 46" fi-glass Huntsman running 16 cells per motor and I can tell it certainly gives you the "grin factor"as far as speed goes
with around 25/30 mins duration flat out
But you don't have to be flat out to get it up on the plane either
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: kris1 on September 21, 2008, 11:52:14 PM
hi,
you could try a tornado thumper 4250 brushless motor. power out put 720 watts.you can get 60amp boat esc from ebay for arould £30.00
the motor cost is £29.99 from over-tec
the motor is 96% efficient
720 watts is just under 1HP
600KV
you can run them on lead batterys ok and you can run the motor on 24volt
also you can use a lager prop
mfa 850 157watts   700bb around the same but only around 65% efficient
if you need more info you can email me

kind regrads
Alan

Hi Alan this is really interesting.  I have just acquired a wood 47” huntsman.  I want electric due to lack of IC friendly boating areas around here.  I fly model planes.  Mainly electric, these run on motors from Hacker Hyperion, neu power, and kontroniks.   I run lipos and use anything from 3S 1800 up to 5S 3700.  My hotliner with the neu power in it draws over 200A off a 5S pack for over 2.5KW!!!  3 second motor burn will see the plane to cloud level!!!

It would be good to use these packs in the huntsman.   So if I was to use a similar motor to the thumper you talk of, what prop should I use?  I have a spare hyperion 4020-12 (660KV) and 2025-10 (560KV).  I know I can run these on 14 x 7” props on a plane and they will draw 70A off a 5S pack for 1100W.  They will give approx 8mins flights of aggressive aerobatics, not always flat out.  If I was to use these in the huntsman on the 5S 3700 (18.5V) what prop should I use and what sort of current draw should I expect?  I am looking for good cruising/planning performance, not mega speed, but enough to see the boat hull on step and out of the water

Cheers

Kris
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: David_S on September 22, 2008, 06:54:14 AM
I used to run a Veron Fast Patrol Boat (all-wood, 52") on a single MFA Marlin motor, not sure if they are still around. The speed looked about right for scale (certainly on the plane) and the duration was never a problem with 2x 12v gel cells in it. I'm afraid I have no idea of the weight or the prop used now.
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: kris1 on September 22, 2008, 12:11:22 PM
OK to jet my head round this, if an MFA 850 or 700BB is only producing 170W, then that will enough to get the board planing.  So at say 200W the boat will be happily on step and moving well.  If I was to use a brushless setup with the 5S 3700 packs.  This would mean that

200W / 18.5V =   11A draw.  this is the "planing draw."

3.7Ah x 60seconds / 11A = 20mins motor run. 

Does this sound right.  Of cause the motor will still have loads more power on tape.

Cheers

Kris

Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: kris1 on September 22, 2008, 12:50:48 PM
Sorry about the spelling, should be reported to the moderator!!!!

Kris
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Martin [Admin] on September 22, 2008, 12:55:00 PM

Sorted!  O0
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: DickyD on September 22, 2008, 01:14:44 PM
Sorry about the spelling, should be reported to the moderator!!!!

Kris
Don't worry about spelling, moderator cant spell either  {-)
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Martin [Admin] on September 22, 2008, 02:13:32 PM

     O0
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: RamJam on April 03, 2009, 01:19:08 PM
The thread is a bit old but the title is appropriate - So here goes - I have had a Precedent Huntsman kit in the loft for the last 15 years or more and now my Grandsons are getting older, I have the perfect excuse to spend time building the boat.
It is the large 46" fibreglass hull version and I bought it 2nd hand and unstarted with 2 x MFA 850 torpedo motors.
I would like to keep the twin motor configuration, but having read this thread and others relating to motor choice verses speed and duration, I wonder if the 850's might be overkill and while they will probably deliver planing performance I am not sure about the duration with NiMh batteries ...

Any advice greatfully received ..
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: RamJam on April 08, 2009, 08:25:39 AM
Decided to go the twin Darke Horse 700 route as there were 2 selling on FleaBay for £11.95 each ...
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Peter Fitness on April 08, 2009, 10:47:20 PM
The Darke Horse 700s are dearer over there than here. I bought 2 from John Darke direct for A$20 each, about 8 pounds stg.

Peter.
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Barry Boy on May 29, 2009, 12:55:59 AM
Hey Guys
I am running my big Huntsman on 2 Darke Horse motors with 16 cells per motor with gearboxes and was so impressed with them I have now fitted 2 of them to my Perkasa
Running 24 cells per motor and the new Action P98 speed controllers the battery pack alone weighs over 7lbs and it still gets up on plane
Have a look on YOU TUBE and watch it go   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6l7efHzg-Ig

Regard's
Steve J.

Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: DickyD on May 29, 2009, 12:01:18 PM
Very nice Steve but those gearboxes are noisy.
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Barry Boy on May 29, 2009, 10:58:04 PM
Noisey maybe but when the JJC gas turbine sound is added to it the noise from the gearboxes can only compliment it heh heh!!!
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: CHWk7 on June 21, 2009, 06:33:09 PM
Hi Guys, thought you all might like to see my solution to this post title. Running 2x Irvine 61's Rear Exhausts with a sync system to lock both engines together from tick over. She looks just like the real thing when under way but you do need a large stretch of water for max speed and you have to throttle back from high speed to make the turns. Boat is not a kit but is scratch built off the oringinal Modav plans using marine ply and skinned in aircraft ply at 1.2mm.
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: CHWk7 on June 21, 2009, 07:15:36 PM
Had trouble uploading images but this seems to work, advice on this would be gratefully received!!!

(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/250/74415026.th.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxOxW1i) (http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/7568/20659109.th.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxOxYwr) (http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/5030/85398376.th.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxOy00A) (http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/6623/55512571.th.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxOy2vJ)

(http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/3839/56999374.th.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxOy4_S) (http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/7052/42169205.th.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxOy7v0) (http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/6533/49350081.th.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxOy9_9) (http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/2239/54668514.th.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxOyhtA)


Photos sort. See: http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=16854.msg168401#msg168401 Admin.


Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: red181 on June 26, 2009, 11:15:08 PM
would be nice to see a video of boat running :-))
nice pics, bet it goes well, I like your window frames, did you do them yourself?
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: Martin [Admin] on June 27, 2009, 12:26:31 AM

Impressive CHWk7, very impressive!

Can you give details of the setup, contra rotating? What's the extra circuit board?

Video please!   :-))
Title: Re: Fairey Huntsman Power
Post by: CHWk7 on June 27, 2009, 06:27:41 PM
The circuit board you can see "not the LED one" is the twin sync system, there are hall effect sensors on both engines with two magnets mounted in the rim of both flywheels. Only one magnet is used per flywheel but I drilled and mounted two per flywheel to keep the dynamic balance correct, engines are also rubber mounted.The LED board is in fact a rev counter which displayed each engine RPM in quick succession.
Windows are 1.2mm ply covered with aluminum tape and the clear plastic sheet has been silconed in to give a water tight seal. If I was doing this again I would use Ali sheet and bolt through just as the real craft. That's is what I will do with a 54inch Huntsman 28 I am building.
Props are not counter rotating, marine silencers live under the engines and are homemade. Boat is very quiet but you have that wonderful sound of twin engines in sync and she looks just like the real thing when underway. The bad news is that I don't have any video footage as I don't own a video camera but will try and find one or some one with one the next time I run.
I also have a 1/8 scale Bluebird K7 with Wren 54 Gas Turbine under constrution, that will need good flat calm conditions unlike the Huntsman which does tend to chew the water up after 20Min's or so!!
Glad you like it.

Regards, Chris Wright