Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Springer Tugs => Topic started by: martno1fan on September 09, 2008, 05:31:06 pm
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Hi i run big petrol powered boats as a few of you might know and ive been thinking of building a springer from the plans available as a resue boat to push my big boats in if and when they stall or flip upside down which can happen at 60 mph {-).I will first make a wooden plug and then make a mould and build a glass fibre one.I have a good high tork motor from a tug rated at 6-12 volts i got on ebay that ill use for it powered by a dry cell 12 v battery,or would i be best using 8.4 volt nimmh cells.Any input on my idea would be appreciated thanks
Mart
ps When im done id like to also offer a few mouldings for sale to enyone interested if anyones interested let me know,i can also produce a glass deck if needed.
Title renamed - Martin.
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.... i'ive been thinking of building a springer from the plans available as a resue boat to push my big boats in if and when they stall or flip upside down. I will first make a wooden plug and then make a mould and build a glass fibre one.I have a good high tork motor from a tug rated at 6-12 volts i got on ebay that ill use for it powered by a dry cell 12 v battery,or would i be best using 8.4 volt nimmh cells.Any input on my idea would be appreciated thanks
Contact Norry, he already makes GF Springer hulls.
Go with two 6v 4.5ah batteries.. gives long run times and makes for good ballast O0
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Hi i dont want to buy what i can make myself no disrespect to him or anyone,i allready make my own mouldings so i may as well add a springer to the list ;).Thanks for the info on the batterys but i allready have a dry cell 12 volt battery from a big rc car its not too heavy just about right id say so ill give it a go.What size prop would you suggest?.
Mart
offer still stands anyone wanting a moulding let me know
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Hi Martno1fan
When you get to the stage where you have a finished product that you are able to sell, you can list this under the traders section.
Regards
Mark
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Cheers mate im aware of that but cheers anyway O0
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No limit on prop size, whatever suit your motor best.
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3471.msg49453#msg49453 (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3471.msg49453#msg49453)
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Thats why i asked as im not sure what prop to use,its a high torque motor so i asume a big prop would be best.Im more used to fast boats, i think the slowest one ive run is a pt boat and thats pretty fast.Not including my sailboat that is ;).
Mart
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Hi Mart
What do you want from your boat. Speed or push. I assume push as it will be a rescue boat, you may get more push from a 3 prop motor. The other thing that may need to be considered is heat generated when the motor is 'working', so the max prop may not be the bbest solution.
I don't know the answer, but having posed the questions I am sure someone will come back to ansewer.
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For a "standard" 540, 550, speed 600 type motor, you should be OK on a 3 bladed 35 or 40mm props.
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Thanks for the info on the batterys but i allready have a dry cell 12 volt battery from a big rc car its not too heavy just about right id say so ill give it a go.
What size prop would you suggest?.
If the battery weighs in at about 3lb you should be ok... although where you will put it in a Springer hull may be a problem once the motor is fitted.
What motor do you have?.. a 'standard' RC car motor drives the 35 - 40mm prop with ease and makes a Springer twitchy on the throttle.
If its a High torque motor (such as a Pittman) then the prop you use is up to you.... I've even managed a 3 3/4" prop on a Springer (Mustang Sally) but thats WAAAAAAY too much power..
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Thanks guys im not sure what size the motor is all i know is its rated at 12 volts and its high torque and came out of a tug,guy said it was very strong.ill post a pic later maybe you guys can identify it,thanks for the help.Oh yea the battery i have weighs in at about 2-3 lb ill weigh it later to be sure.I cant remember the mah if its not high i might go with two 6v ones wheres best to buy those from maplins maybe?.
Mart
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... i might go with two 6v ones wheres best to buy those from maplins maybe?.
http://www.component-shop.co.uk/html/lead-acid.html
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Dang it Toes ! wasted time typing that in just to see the red warning. Yep Component Shop and/or Maplins. Looked at another named source that I found in the municipal skip (6v 4ah charged it ,tested and fine) which has the brand name www.nightsearcher.com, might be worth a look.
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Cheers fellas another question ive been reading these tugs have issues with water lapping over the deck and some guys have added splash protectors on the deck etc i was thinking i could make the sides 1" higher and set the deck 1" lower and cut a few drain holes in the sides for any water that does get on there also im thinking of raising the bow a bit and maybe even adding a stem and small keel to help disperews water a bit better what do you think? im not talking much maybe 1/2" and tapered to a round edge like ona barge or similar.Ill post apic of what i mean later.
Mart
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heres a crude pic of why i mean maybe i dont need the keel bit but im thinking the stem bit might help disperse some water?.
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Yes a raised stem is a good idea, all of mine have a higher bow than deck level, a sort of dam. If you mean spray strips along the front edges I dont think that is so good, better to have the edges of the hull rounded to let the bow-wave escape round the sides. I have a piece of 90 degree angle between the knees on the Sprub as she is very low in the water. It seems to help stop water climbing up and over the bow. Drainage ports on any "wall" round the deck is essential and at the transom. Trimming with battery position to a couple of notches up at the bow helps.
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hi no i didnt mean spray rails i just mean ill put a pice of trriangular stock at the stem verticaly to maybe help water disperse a tad and ive allready rounded the front corners,the plug is almost done just need the bottom sheeting now,im using some plastic sheeting as its easy to bend and its only for a plug anyways.Should have finnished mould tomorrow night,cpl of new hulls by the weekend all been well.Ill take a few pics and post them as i go.
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Heres where im at at the moment i will of course need to spread some filler onto the edges of the chipboard ,its all i had but it will do the job for a plug once sanded smooth.The face is smooth enough as its pretty dense stuff not like some cheap board you get.
Mart
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Yep that looks OK. Central beam might be at odds with the two push-knees that are more common. I think I`d leave the bulwark square cut and allow folk to customise to suit their chosen top design. The bottom of the knees should be above the waterline to allow some sideways flow. On the Sprub pic below you can see the build-up of bow-wave is contained by the horizontal strip between the knees. On the orange one the tyres do the same. Any idea what yours is going to look like topside ?
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Yea you could be right i might remove it and leave it as was then people can decide what to do from there,as for mine up top i havent decided yet but something fun as my son will be the one driving it mostly ;).As for the rest ill leave it as is because should anyone want to change the bullwark they can trim the glass back to where they want it with a dremmel or a hacksaw blade.Ive built this so i can set the deck 1" down from the top edge all that needs doing is some bearers epoxying to the hull inside.
Mart
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Check your PMs. Yes I think the ideas that have emerged in Springer mania it would be better just the basic hull shape. I see your avatar, how about this for a top ::)
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Haha thats an idea O0
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Hi Martno1fan
I think that if you are going to do a hull moulding, that you intend to sell, it will need to be 'regualtion' Springer design.
And the rest, as you say, is up to the builders themselves.
If not regualtion you need to state this in any advert, and this will affect sales.
Just my thoughts.
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So your saying keep it as per the plans? but i think the plans could do with changes? i dont think the higher sides will effect sales as if they dont want a water barrier they can soon trim it back.I can easyly offer either design its no big deal but thanks for the tip.What do you call regulation? are there any rules stating how big these things have to be if so can you point me in the right direction
Mart
ps this is only the start expect lots more designs
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The guidelines for "Springers" are now fixed and we are all building to those.
Of course anyone can build anything they want but unless it conforms to the fixed springer guidelines, it's not
a Springer, it's just something else.... Sringerish, Lookie likeie, Super Springer etc.
It's the same for any rules of "class" type racing.
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=10759.msg100987#msg100987 (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=10759.msg100987#msg100987)
(http://innovative-rc.co.uk/products/springer-tug/hull-drawing.jpg)
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Yep make yours the basic "regulation" shape and size. All other variations will be up to builders.
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Hi Martin those ar the plans i used to build this one,thanks for the info ill build it the standard size,i was thinking of doing some details on the hull such as rivets and a built in skeg i this legal?.
Mart
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Yes, and the customers will love you for it O0 A variation would be weld lines for more modern builds. If they dont like rivets etc they can be easily sanded off, same with hacksaw for skeg. Show us what you`ve got :o :D
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Yes, but all means do detailing, but keep to the standard external dimensions. And I am sure you donot need reminding tha t these are the dimension of the finished hull and not the dimensions of the plug.
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Mounding in the skeg is a good idea but can be tricky to cut for the prop tube.
How difficult would it be to make it a as separate moulding?
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Naw, keep the skeg hollow , fit tube through hole in rear of skeg, fill voids with anything, wood, epoxy putty, etc. Measure from stern and allow space for 2" rudder and gap for prop. Easier than trying to drill long hole at correct angle through solid wood.
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Good idea Arrow! O0
(I skeg was ply sheet, about 6mm)
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Thanks guys whatever size my plug is is what the finnished boats come out,the skeg will be hollow i was going to use a solid piece of wood on the plug once moulded the finnished one will be hollow.The measurement on the plans doesnt mention but i asume those are the dimensions after sheeting etc.does it include the deck thickness or not?,if not not to worry but if it does id need to make the sides a tad lower than the plans to allow for sheeting them?any thoughts on this?.
Mart
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The height is not critical as many modellers add a bulwark at the front, if not all the way round so I guess that's the minimun deck height and maximum length & breadth
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That was why i was considering making them higher so they could drop the deck to its orriginal height and have a bullwark all the way round ready made ?,maybe i can offer either or what do you think?.That way i can build in some details like hawse pipes for mooring lines and towing ropes etc also for drain holes at the transom.
mART
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Sounds like a good idea. Could you mould in a small cut line into the hull?
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Cut line so they can trim it if required you mean? if so i guess so but that said im sure a bit of tape and a dremmel or a hacksaw will make an easy job of it.Im now thinking of making a deck from glass with a hatch thats flush to the deck so they can build on it and it will all remove so you can get inside,maybe leave 1" of deck each side and cpl of inches for and aft sound good?.ILL attach the deck from inside with glass tape so you wont see the join.Ill probably make two types some with the higher deck and some with standard deck.I will make the first few with clear gelcoat then maybe make a few in diff colours,what colours would you suggest.
Mart
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Any deck with hatches would be btter with a 1" high coming round the hole might be better. Dont forget fat hands and big batteries have got to get in there {-) A patterned deck would be nice, say anti skid panels or for older boats wood planking. Just an idea O0
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got yaa i did something similar on my sailboat,paterned decks you dont want much do yaa lol.i could do that using plastic card to simulate plank lines?.
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A couple of patches of coarse sandpaper for anti-skid might be easier than planking then :D. Check some of the scale tug guy effort and copy a typical style. O0
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Hi i dont know how well it would work on a plug it might not work by the time ive waxed over it etc ?,good way to do it on an actual boat though i never thought of that.This might take longer than anticipated {-).
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Heres what im thinking of doing simple deck atached to correct height then a large opening with a shoebox lid as a water barrier what do you think?1 1/2" between lid and sides 2" up forward and aft ok or too big?.lid will be about 3/4" that sound ok?,all comments appreciated.
Mart
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I was also thinking of prejoining the deck ,i can do it two ways either a seamless join that will need sanding and then painting over or i could produce a small flange round the top for the deck flange to join to the hull this would then make a flange say 1/4" that you could then attach some rubber or silicone to to form a rub rail would this be legal?.
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Yep bumper strip flange all round sounds good. I`m sure it would be legal, just like tyres strung along the sides , they are legal. Fitted deck would be a bonus for builders. Like the red oxide colour, good scale base colour.
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Sounds like these moulds are getting more expensive but the post :'(
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Naa i have materials allready i just want to get the inital design sorted before i make them,once i get them done and a hull from them ill post a few pics and list a cpl for sale to anyone interested.Flange it is then,i find an easy rub rail is to use some rubber or silicone tubing and split it down one side with a sharp knife and it should slip right over,a bit of ca or superglue and jobs a goodun as they say.I might leave the rivet details off for now see if theres an interest first.
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I think it would be nice if the deck was pre-joined and did not have a hole in it. Then people could put the hole where they want, my personnal preference when bulding a springer is not to have the cabin too close to the front because of the amount of water that washes over the deck.
Like Arrow I like the colour of the resin, if the paint gets knocked off then the boat ages naturally rust showing through.
Brian
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Good point Ching. How about a flat no hole, no detail lid and an optional one with the one described with lipped basic hatch/hole ?
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Good point ching ill make it a flat deck with a flanged join to the hull then you can cut your own opening,ill make the other type with the raised lid later too just to see how it works i can allways set it back further from the front no probs there.Just finnished the plug it just needs a bit of filling sanding and then primer.a few pins to punch in and fill the holes etc.I think ill leave the rivets for another time,maybe youd like to look one over when i build one mate,be my guniea pig so to speak lol.ive rounded the corners and also where the bottom sheet meets the side not much just sanded it a tad so its not sharp was that the right thing to do?.what thickness should i do the skeg 3/8" or thicker 1/2" maybe?.
Mart
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I always round the joints on mine, in wood you get a better paint finish if you do not have any sharp corners.
Brian
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Yea i know Brian just didnt want to round the edge then people say i want a sharp edge lol.Any input on the thickness of the skeg.
Mart
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I like the idea of the flat deck with no holes, everyone is catered for then!
I would say a skeg of 10-13mm should enclose most shafts but I would suggest a
taper of at least 20-30mm towards the prop.
What price do you hope to 'knock them out' for?
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martno1fan
Just a few points here
1/ To get the complete flavour of a Springer, you need to read this..
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3471.0
.. and this..
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=522762
Most of the information you are looking for is contained within these two threads.
2/ You need to build a wood / ply Springer so you can get a feel for what will work and wont work.
3/ Then you can build a plug / mold and produce some GF Springer hulls.
4/ Most start with the basic 18" x 8" and do their own 'thing' from there. By molding in certain things in to a GF hull, you will be limiting peoples options as to what they can build and therefore limiting your customers.
5/ I can build a wooden / ply Springer hull (two sides, bow, stern and bottom) for about $20 (11 GB pounds).. Can you produce a hull for about that cost?.
6/ There are already GF Springer hull builders in the UK and also in the USA... I'm sure they can count on their fingers how many Springers they have sold. Dont expect large volume production runs!..
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First of all thanks for the coments but let me tell you this you are in the united states i believe,prices here are not so cheap .You say you can build a plywood hull for 11 pounds good for you,would you sell one for that i doubt it very much,however lots of people dont like to spend the time to build a hull they prefer to have a ready made hull to add there own top structures to.Can i sell a glass hull for 11 pounds most certainly not nor would i want to,the materials alone will cost close to that.What you will gain with a glass hull is strength and longevity and a smooth gelcoat finnish that doesnt need painting unless you wish to do so,if you dont want a glass one dont buy one simple as that.I am not looking to rip anyone off here mereley to offer a good quality product at a fair price.I would think price will be in the region of £25 each but for that you will get a complete hull with deck installed.By the way ive built lots of wooden boats in my lifetime and i know what things cost and the work that goes into it,my hulls are for those not wanting to build fully from scratch im sure there is a market for them but thanks for your concern ;).By the way im not a buisness just a hobbiest any money i make goes straight back into the hobby :).
Mart
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I get all my wood free (except the 1/16th ply) from the village recycling depot. But then the Scots have a reputation for being "careful" with money. I think part of the appeal of the Springer is that it is a beginner boat and to have a newby learn to knock some wood into an internationally known fun boat with many uses, might not be as appealing in a glass version. A lot who would like a glass version probably wont have skills or facilities for that route. I do think there might a market for hulls though. Me biased ? One of Norry`s glass :embarrassed: , five woodies :angel:!
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As i say if you prefer wood thats your choice im not asking you to buy one,mine will have a perfectly smooth surface no sanding nor painting needed unless people wish to do so.That said the first one will be clear gelcoat so you can see my work and know its good quality.Thanks for your help ,and ill have something to show you probably tomorrow as the bottom plug is painted and drying.Anyone interested feel free to comment.
Mart
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First of all thanks for the coments but let me tell you this you are in the united states i believe,prices here are not so cheap .
Can i sell a glass hull for 11 pounds most certainly not nor would i want to,the materials alone will cost close to that.What you will gain with a glass hull is strength and longevity
I would think price will be in the region of £25 each but for that you will get a complete hull with deck installed.
By the way ive built lots of wooden boats in my lifetime and i know what things cost and the work that goes into it,my hulls are for those not wanting to build fully from scratch im sure there is a market for them but thanks for your concern ;).
Yes, I'm aware of where i am sitting... and (having originally come from GB), prices of petrol, houses AND model products are cheaper here in the US than in GB and the rest of Europe.
I think the last 'glass' hull i saw change hands was for less than 10 GB pounds. (I dont know what Norry charges)
Yes, I've built one or two wooden hulled boats.
As you are already aware having read both of the Springer threads i mentioned above, I'm probably one of the most prolific builders of wooden Springers in the world. You have posted a pic of my 6th on your thread over on RC Universe.. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7937381/tm.htm a Springer of mine that is on a 'World tour'. I'm currently building my 7th and 8th...
I would like to think there is a huge market for GF Springers in the UK and the rest of the world... but i somehow doubt it.
Offer a basic / quality Springer hull.. with a basic deck.. and see what response you get..
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Right, having just retread all the latest posts, I'm going to roll back the topic to the last actual
constructive post and we'll start again on Monday.
Martin - sigh....... :-\