Model Boat Mayhem
Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => The "Black Arts!" ( Electrics & Electronics ) => Topic started by: samuel15g on September 27, 2008, 01:45:14 am
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Hello All
I'm unsure as to where to post this topic so I've started it in the Mess Deck in the hope that Martin will either erase it or put it somewhere useful.
Since seeing JJC's "Old Smokey" at the Warwick Show a couple of years ago I'd hankered after obtaining one but as many of us know they disappeared off the planet and though you might find the odd one lurking on e-bay, they often go for silly money.
I've been pondering on a new project for winter-- something like a drifter or puffer into which I want to install an effective smoke generator.
On my current fleet I've tried everything from incense sticks to smouldering WD40 on a piece of old rope but all seem to be a fire risk or the boys in our boat club moan about the smell of Jasmine---nothing matches the output of the defunked JJC units.
Late on Wednesday evening, with my wife at Yoga class, I sat down with a blank sheet of paper and put together a "Heath Robinson " plan for a home made JJC type unit.
A couple of hours later I'd come up with something.
On my way into work on Thursday I bought a few essential bits from RS Components and during my hour lunch break commenced the project.
By late Friday evening, after working on the project Thursday evening and Friday lunch I'd come up with the attached .
It's worked out to be a reasonably sized unit (15 cm long x 8 cms wide x 9 cms high - excluding the chimney)
empty weight is 600 grms - operating weight approx 900grms.
I've just run it up and it's used 100 ml of water and ran for a tad over 90 minutes. The kitchen is as humid as the Amazon Rain Forest.
I've decided to call it "Smokey Joe" -- the pictures show the smoker in full throw after my initial test with a back drop of a black sheet to show the "steam",
In the background you'll see the power source consisting of two 12 volt batteries connected together to give an output of 24 volts and another 12 V for the fan drive.
The wiring to these is a little untidy but I'll sort that out tomorrow evening
This set up should sit very nicely in something about 40" long with a beam of 8 to 10 inches with the weight of the batteries assisting as removable ballast.
Now to get the sketch pad out and start on that boat!
Happy boating and kind regards
Terry H
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Well don't keep us in suspense, how does it work and ow can we build one? By the way it does work nice?
Andre
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These smoke units are like the proverbial bus - you wait and wait but nothing comes - then a load of them all come together!
I'm not sure about the individual designs of these latest smoke units, and so this may not be applicable if they are operate by burning oil, but some points to note:
As I understand it, one of the major problems with well known previous version was that if the tank was filled too high, the water would slosh around inside and soak the small intake fan causing it to fail. Some sort of internal baffle arrangement might reduce this possibility, if not eliminate it?
The previous version also had some rather complex electronics which a) allowed the unit to be driven proportionally to the ESC/motor, and b) in different modes to simulate various types of engines by pulsing the fan.
The main problems with complex electronics circuitry in models are c) modellers themselves, no disrespect here, but we sell electronics products to modellers and know from experience what some of them can do to anything electronic, and d) complex electronics units are generally not particularly robust, and are always subject to the possibility of a soaking - electronics and water generally don't mix well.
If you can stay away from complex proportional electronics, and live with a steady stream of smoke/water vapour, it's probably best if you do?
Both of the latest ones that I've seen look to be excellent - well done!
Malc
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Thats impressive. I have often thought that the straight jet of smoke as it leaves the exhaust on these units looks a little false. Perhaps a baffle in the pipe near the top would diffuse that a little?
Ian
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That's interesting, as Malc says it's a bit like the number three bus, never one when you want one then all of a sudden they all come along together!!
I have only just recieved one of these units from "No Mustang Mark" which interestingly enough is exactly the same arrangement to this one. Consequently I think the strengths and weaknesses of his will be exactly the same as this unit when compared with the JJC "Old Smokey" units.
The big advantage with the JJC units for me was the fact that they could be run off the 12v main battery and so did not require another 24v battery for the nebuliser unit. As has been pointed out though, this requires electronics to arrange which is then introducing additional complexity and possible sources of failure. Strangely enough though one of the ones I had failed because the nebuliser itself packed in!!
I think the thing for me though is that I was prepared to pay for the developement of the electronics to make the device useable and controllable in my model. This alternative, whilst possibly more robust, is nothing more than an assembly of items purchased from any electronics supplier, which most of us could do ourselves, so the cost would have to be very competetive when compared to doing it yourself or having those electronics which make the device that bit more user freindly.
It's certainly going to be interesting to see what comes of these new units and how they are developed to compete with each other. I think the deciding factor for a lot of people will be the first one to step the battery up to the required 24v and so do away with the additional battery.
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I think, bunkerbarge, you are (in your paragraph 4 of above statement) being very harsh on someone who has had the know how to put one of these items together, just as JJC had and also the other gent who has just also produced one.
Sadly we are not all wizzards in electronics and I for one could never ever even consider going to a shop for basic components and raw materials in order to put one together.
For those reasons alone I WOULD BE PREPARED to pay the "going rate" for such an item, taking intio account his "developement and manufacturing costs" just as I would if buying a new motor car.
Sadly I feel that your stab at him to bring unit costs down before you even know what they would cost was unjust and not really needed. >>:-(
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why 24 volts is my only question???
other then that it looks very nice O0
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Just how much actual power do these nebulisers use? How does power consumption compare to the vaporising oil type?
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In defence of Bunkerbarge (who, incidentally is perfectly capable of defending himself, should he need to), I don't believe that he was making any attempt to bring unit costs down?
Reading his post carefully, I believe that like me, he was merely indicating that these units in their most basic form are a viable project for a modeller? Manufacturers would need to develop the product, probably by the incorporation of complex electronics, offer a product that the average modeller couldn't build in isolation, and be sufficiently competitive on price to encourage the modeller to buy one, rather than build one for himself? Nothing wrong with that?
samuel15g has very capably demonstrated that these gizmo's can be de-mystified (probably to No mustang Mark's detriment), and Mark has already probably realised that the gains to be made from manufacturing rest in the fact that sales are mostly made to punters who although largely capable of researching, developing and putting a product together, mostly just can't be bothered?
Whilst we're on this subject, and before it starts, I would counsel all concerned not to go down the route of accusations of copying each others designs. The model industry is too small and volumes are too low to support those sorts of histrionics. It is painful if somebody copies your design (Jim Casey will certainly be hurting) , but treat it as imitation being the sincerest form of flattery, improve your own product, make sure that your price is lower than the opposition, and live with it, - life is far too short....
Malc
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Just how much actual power do these nebulisers use? How does power consumption compare to the vaporising oil type?
Malcolm
I'm only guessing, but I expect that nebulisers use a lot less power than a soldering iron element (used in most oil type smoke generators).
The problem as I understand it is that the only available nebulisers run on 24V, albeit at probably a low power consumption.
NB: The term 'nebuliser' is generic - it is also used for the machines that produce water vapour for medical use. A better term might be 'nebuliser transducer'?
Malc
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Hello All
Many thanks for all of your very positive comments.
The reason I built this and posted the pictures was to show that something is possible.
As a mechanical development engineer, some of my fellow club members urged me to take a look at making something effective and I appear to have done it. My skills in electronics are zero so I had no idea about involved circuits etc - I use what is available.
As I have a full time and highly stressful job I don't have any interest in manufacturing them-- this was built as what we call in the trade,a "bit of Jarvo" during a couple of evenings and two lunch breaks. I will, however, build them as a favour for fellow club members and in this case I will ask to cover my material costs.
Sadly I wouldn't want to go the way of JJC as I fully understand Customer demands for reliabilty, low cost and warranty support. Locally and for club members I can put things right without too much hassle but with a potential Customer, who may have stumped up hard earned cash and lives 200 miles away it could get difficult.
Now to answer some of your queries-
1 - I agree water can slosh around and get into the fan. To get around this I used a sealed, brushless fan offset from the inner module and have put a baffle plate just below the inlet holes
2 -I agree with boatmanmad regarding the jet streaming and his idea of using using baffles in the stack would definitely break this up. The pictures are of the fan running on full bore at 12V, if you use a lower voltage ( I've run with at 4.8V) then the steam is slow and voluminous.
I've yet to test this but I'm sure the fan could be wired up to motor output to give variable fan speed in relation to boat motor speed via the speed controller, hence increase or decrease the steam volume.
3 - As previously stated I'm not an Electronics Engineer but I do have colleagues who are.
They could probably assist in dropping from 24 volts to 12V but they have no interest in model boating and though they would advise I reckon things could end up with expensive development costs and lower reliability and as far as I'm concerned its unknown territory-- keep it simple and effective.
If I want steam puffing accuracy then out comes my Cheddar steamer!
4 - Actually 24Vac is the recommended input power required of the module - I bit the bullet and tried it on 24Vdc and it works - there is a very slight decrease in steam output, but nothing gets hot , makes a noise or seems to want to break down after running continuously for 90 minutes cycles throughtout the day .
5 - As this will be going into a boat of 40" proportions then two 12V batteries rated at 2.2 amp each will only assist in ballast. I'm not into fast electric wizz bangers and have only used heavy Lead acid cells in my boats for this very reason - I like to have them pootling around the pond at a relaxed pace. That said if you want to build up a stack of smaller, lighter cells then I'm sure its possible
6 - Thanks NHP651 for your supportive comments - rest assured that if you can build a boat and wire it up then you could make one of these!
Basically for me it works as I want it to - relaxed Sunday boating -- keep the stress levels at work not at the pond side!
Kind regards
To all
Terry H
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Very impressive Terry now if someone would put a detailed list of required components on the forum,then I may have a go too.....My electronics knowledge is also very limited.
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Hi Terry
you mentioned reliabilty.
This was the BIG isse with JJC units from ny understanding. The users will be very sensetive to this. Alothogh 12 v would be nice, if the added complxity of would affect reliabilty then this would be a weakness the market would be sensitive to.
However, if you are going to provide plans so the those with the right electirical knowledge could have a go themselves, then this is not an issue as 'if I built it, I can fix it.'
Good luck
Mark
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sorry Malc,
but I beg to differ with regards competant modellers being able to "put one of these together".
I class myself as a competant modeller and will attempt all forms of modelling applications.
However, I don't class even basic electronics as modelling, and I for one would far prefer to pay someone 50 - 60 quid to make one and for me to purchase than spend my time on something I KNOW I would cock up when I can be spending my time doing a process I enjoy.
There are certain things in life that you have a total mental block on, and it doesn't help when someone who doesn't know my limitations in life suggests I can do something I can't, and both you and bunkerbarge make that assumption by saying " any competant modeller" could throw one of these together.
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At the risk of going off at a tangent, and repeating a point previously made somewhere else on the Forum I would agree that a model "steam" boat emitting clouds of whiteish smoke from the funnel does look very pretty but I don't think it's very authentic in most cases. I spent all day on the Waverley on Thursday and all you could see was a faint shimmering heat haze from her funnels from the combustion process (waste steam of course goes into a condenser). Even diesel powered vessels don't normally emit smoke, except maybe a black cloud at start up.
Same with sound units, it's very rarely that you get to hear a ship's engines unless you are actually in the engine room. Again, on Waverley, all you could hear (and feel) was the thumping of the paddle wheels - not sure if anyone does a sound unit that replicates that!
It does seem to me that a lot of these ingenious electronic gizmos reproduce what people think they ought to see/hear rather than reflect reality.
But do feel free to shoot me down on this!
Colin
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Colin, I agree completely. Pete M
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hi colin.
On the sound . I have to agree with you. A 1:100 scale ship 1m from the shore is 100m in reality.Apart from a faint rumbel you can hear much elese execpt a horn. As for smoke. on the diesel ship i have seen i have to fully agree with you. But i think it comes down to this. Most modlers who go own this road want more than foward and back left and right. So the next step is sound and smoke. So what do you do go fore the true scale look wich will be a fain wisp of smoke a a fain rumbel of sound or go for over kill to show oyher people the extra you have gone to.
Me i love a smoke unit that gave a big black cloud on start up.
john
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sorry Malc,
but I beg to differ with regards competant modellers being able to "put one of these together".
I class myself as a competant modeller and will attempt all forms of modelling applications.
However, I don't class even basic electronics as modelling, and I for one would far prefer to pay someone 50 - 60 quid to make one and for me to purchase than spend my time on something I KNOW I would cock up when I can be spending my time doing a process I enjoy.
There are certain things in life that you have a total mental block on, and it doesn't help when someone who doesn't know my limitations in life suggests I can do something I can't, and both you and bunkerbarge make that assumption by saying " any competant modeller" could throw one of these together.
Sorry, I repeat, any COMPETANT modeller could assemble one of these - there are NO ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS IN IT, just a simple two wire connection for the fan, and a two wire connection for the nebuliser all through a single switch - Oh and maybe a fuse? - If you've ever built a RC model boat, you've already done more complex stuff than this! If you've got a mental block matey - it's your problem alone an not everybody else's.
Malc
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Been out for the day, Malc you read and understood my point perfectly.
There are no electronics involved with this unit, it is a 24v nebuliser and a 6-12v computer fan housed in an electrical enclosure, all available from electronics wholesalers such as Maplins or RS Components. I'd be surprised if the majority of us here cannot put that together relatively competently. My assumption was based on the fact that most modellers should be capable of drilling a hole in a piece of plastic and that's about the sum total of the requirement here!! ...and no I am not being detrimental to anyone who has put one together, they have simply evaluated the available components, asembled them and shown us what can be achieved relatively simply. My hat off to them. For those of us who do not want to risk drilling holes in the said plastic, each to thier own, I'm open minded enough to accept that we all take on the challenges that we want to however I do think when someone has shown us how relatively simple something is we should allow people to spread the word rather than critisise them for making relatively safe assumptions.
My point was that for me I am looking for someone who can put the electronics together to make it more user friendly and controllable whilst maintaining the reliability. We don't seem to have been able to have achieved that as yet, although all credit to JJC for a very good attempt.
By the way Colin, I have been saying for some time now that the levels of noise emanating from most ponds on a Sunday morning is grossly disproportionate to the sound levels of your average harbour, but what the heck, if people get enjoyment out of it who are we to get picky!!
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I don't disagree that sounds and smoke make life more entertaining, I rather liked the diesel sounds from one of the lifeboats at Mayhem last year and something coming out of the funnel does give the impression that things are happening below decks. So it's all harmless fun really, just not all that realistic in most cases. In fact the only vessel I have heard which really does make a noise you can't miss is the Isle of Wight hovercraft ferry. But it does have four aero engines stuck up on pylons. Curiously enough, all the model hovercraft I have seen have been pretty quiet!
Colin
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I don't disagree that sounds and smoke make life more entertaining, I rather liked the diesel sounds from one of the lifeboats at Mayhem last year and something coming out of the funnel does give the impression that things are happening below decks. So it's all harmless fun really, just not all that realistic in most cases. In fact the only vessel I have heard which really does make a noise you can't miss is the Isle of Wight hovercraft ferry. But it does have four aero engines stuck up on pylons. Curiously enough, all the model hovercraft I have seen have been pretty quiet!
Colin
Email received from club just recently Colin.
Dear Members .
Following complaints about noise levels at Setley pond to the Forestry Commission . The attached rules for operation of hovercraft are to be followed with immediate effect .
I am sorry to sound so dictatorial about this but your Committee are very concerned that we are at risk of losing the use of the lake if we do not reduce noise levels.
You are obviously listening to the wrong ones.
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Obviously Richard! Do you import yours from Portsmouth -Ryde? Sounds(!) as if they really are authentic!
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Obviously Richard! Do you import yours from Portsmouth -Ryde? Sounds(!) as if they really are authentic!
No ours come via Pete (hoverboy) from Salisbury. {-)
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There was a little pusher tug on our pond last Sunday and it was making a very realistic diesel engine noise. Not too much, just enough to be feasible and a very realistic tone that matched the engine revs perfectly.
I asked the owner which sound system he was using and he said he would take it out and show me. When he did I couldn't see a thing, the noise was being generated by an out of alignement gearbox {-) {-) {-) It made the best diesel engine noise I had heard!!
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One advantage of going along to a club is there is always someone who can help you out. So built unit, kit, or list of parts it shouldn't really be a problem. Most clubs will help anyone, not just members.
As to sounds and smoke. Maybe the 'unrealistic' effects can be thought of as an enhancement for the admiring public rather than the afficionados. In an expert only situation they can be turned off. These effects, like water viscosity, do not scale so the exageration is perhaps needed to 'fool' the human senses. Lets not forget how much we admire a nicely prepared real wood finish on a 1/24 th model which if scaled up actually has the grain texture of a straw bale.
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One advantage of going along to a club is there is always someone who can help you out. So built unit, kit, or list of parts it shouldn't really be a problem. Most clubs will help anyone, not just members.
As to sounds and smoke. Maybe the 'unrealistic' effects can be thought of as an enhancement for the admiring public rather than the afficionados. In an expert only situation they can be turned off. These effects, like water viscosity, do not scale so the exageration is perhaps needed to 'fool' the human senses. Lets not forget how much we admire a nicely prepared real wood finish on a 1/24 th model which if scaled up actually has the grain texture of a straw bale.
Excellent point Bee
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Hello All
Oh dear not only have I opened a can of worms regards posting pictures of the steam unit but we have some interesting comments being bounced around regards sound.
My way of thinking is that in the long run sound, steam and accurate scale representations in models are all a matter of personal preference.
A couple of years ago we took a trip on the "Gondola" based in the Lakes and even with its massive steam engine pushing her along at a reasonable rate of knots, all we could hear was a gentle whisper and the lapping of waves. If built in model form I'm sure most members of the public would like to hear a steady chug and see billowing steam.
Attached is a photo of my Yacht Tender - this has a false boiler and steam engine and is actually electric powered - sadly the "Smokey Joe" won't fit into it but I've had many people saying "Do you know, that boat would look a whole lot better with smoke pouring out of the chimney!" -- to that end I light a couple of incense sticks pop them down the funnel and these give a steady, just discernable swirl of blue smoke. The tender also has a sound unit -- a cheapo, locomotive sound unit kit from Maplins with the high speed loco sound adjusted down to a steady chuff.
This unit is housed in the cabin at the back and can just be heard as the boat passes close to shore. This unit isn't connected to engine speed or anything complicated and chugs nicely on a 9V battery. I hate to say this but anyone with basic soldering skills can rattle one of these off with no problem, once you get your head around the instruction leaflet. They are a nice little project but the speaker supplied is a bit iffy so you need a bigger one.
As with Bunkerbarges example of the pusher tug, I have a similar example in my 50 year old model of Harold Underhills "Barbara" , the motor and propshaft rattle ond bang so much it sounds just like diesel
To be honest I love seeing a nicely built and weathered model that is as close as possible to the real thing but in miniature , I agree with Bee in that the viewing public like to imagine something going on below decks hence excessive steam/ smoke and sound.
Anyway back to "Smokey Joe" -- I've heard tell that if you mixed food colouring with the water in the JJC unit, the water particles would take on that colour (brown dye- brown smoke) I have nothing to loose regards trying this in my "Smokey Joe" but the ceramic disc in the nebuliser module may become clogged and require regular cleaning or replacement -- its possible that the failure of the ceramic disc in the JJC unit caused the unit to stop working, that's just my guess.
I've started experimenting by adding Antifeeze to the water as its possible that the glycol in the antifreeze will cause the water mist to hold together longer and perhaps generate more volume.
Kind regards-- for the time being!
Terry H
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try reading this,and look at date
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=8813.msg94333#msg94333
Proteus
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I believe from various comments within this and other threads that there are still people willing to pay for the privilege of obtaining a ready built unit...
I honestly believe that the type of person who wants to tinker and build their own, would be unlikely to buy one.
It is unfortunate that somebody has been made redundant. However, I doubt if there is a living to be made from the manufacture of smoke units. To do this I think you would need to sell over 100 units per month. People producing their own units is not going to deprive anybody of their livelihood.
I also believe that there are other smoke units under development from other makers.
Anybody should be free to manufacture and trade within the law. The same goes for sharing ideas and methods.
This should be achievable without being attacked or harassed on open forum.
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When I see a fellow modeler who has lost his job and starts his own business with his redundancy so he does not have to rely on hand outs.It really takes guts and gonads to do this, and we get a KNOW ALL who comes on this forum and suddenly builds an identical unit out of the blue I am sorry to say this but it stinks BIG TIME
I am absolutely GOBSMACKED at a Moderator on here who is Bunkerbarge who has bought one of these units and has openly told everyone on this forum whats inside them SO EVERYONE CAN BUILD THEM.What you so called gentelmen have done is scuppered a new business venture.
I HOPE YOU ARE PROUD OF YOUSELVES
Stavros
All* he has done is stuff a computer fan on top of a Maplin nebuliser. The later is available in the shops (I have one bought with the same idea in mind) and we all have one of those fans inside our computers. The other thing mentioned in the JJC units is "some electronics". From that description I doubt anyone could reproduce the circuit but it's the most important part of the unit - no control circuit, no "chuff", just a continuous stream of smoke no matter how hard the boat is working. What we have is clever and pretty effective but not as good as the JJC unit (I haven't seen any others).
If we aren't allowed to dabble with the readily available gear and have a go at this, what can we do ? No scratchbuilding hulls 'cos you can buy fibreglass ones ?
Now if the JJC circuit diagram was published, I could see you have a point...
Anyway, most modellers won't want to build this, they will want to buy it so anyone in business still has a ready market.
Phil
*This is not to disparage the original post which is excellent. Like others I've wondered about this - unlike me though, the poster got off his backside and did something about it for which we are all greatful.
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I bought one of No Mustang Marks Smokers,
and it operates as it says on the paperwork,
so today I did some experiments with the
system and the changes were really simple
the unit has a nebuliser in the bottom of the
container by moving it's location in the case
you can get different smoke actions which
I found brilliant, so thank you Mark for a neat unit
that does exactly what you said it would and
even more, Marks delivery service was also
second to none, as the unit arrived here in
Australia in quick time and perfect condition
Thank you again Mark and Angy....... O0 O0
Roy
PS
I have attached two pics of the unit working
one as standard, two is with a 42" extension
pipe still works great..........
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Hello All especially Mark
If you continue to get revues as posted by cbr900 then you'll have no concerns regards your venture being Scuppered.
As folks have pointed out on this thread there are are those that want to experiment a problem for themselves as part of their modelling hobby---just as I did!-- and those that just want to buy an RTR unit.
For those taking the latter route you've got a good option available
Kind regards
Terry H
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http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=12767.0 (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=12767.0)
IT'S Here Martin................
This is the news everyone wants to hear!!!! I am starting production of a cold water vapour smoke generator similar to the old JJC units.
The first unit measures 150mm long, 80mm wide and 90mm high to the top of the fan.
It operates on 24 volt DC so will have to have its own dedicated supply battery but as the unit draws less than 0.75 amps these batteries will not have to be big, (I have got over 2 hours continuous running from 2500mh ni/mh AA size pen cells) These packs only weigh about 600grams.
The fan runs on 6/12 volts and can be run at a constant speed via a switch or can be powered from an ESC (but the fan will not run backwards when you reverse the model)
This unit should fit into any model over 30 inches long and is perfect for an old steam tug!!!!
There will be a smaller unit approx 100mm, 100mm, 90mm high as well and I can also custom build any unit to your size requirements, phone or email for a price.
The water reservoir holds approximately 200ml of water and will run continuously for about an hour before it needs to be refilled.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NHV5mSHSXY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NHV5mSHSXY)
These units will retail at £45 or £60 with a dedicated ESC (from Action) and 'Y' lead plus £5.50 postage and packing to the UK, international postage costs please email me for a price. At the moment I can only accept cheques/ postal orders (pounds sterling) as I am just starting out in this venture (credit cards in the near future) I can also accept Paypal.
My email markandangie_9@hotmail.com
Tel. 01633 431010
Any questions feel free to email me, phone me or shout really loud {-)
Mark.
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You could always use a dc/dc converter for upping the voltage-
http://www.powerstream.com/dc-2171.htm
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Right, I think that's got this topic back on track.....
Once upon a time...
Late on Wednesday evening, with my wife at Yoga class, I sat down with a blank sheet of paper and put together a
"Heath Robinson " plan for a home made JJC type unit. A couple of hours later I'd come up with something.
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I've attached a couple of pictures of one of Marks units to not only demonstrate the fact that it produces a good amount of vapour but also to indicate that this was the situation after 40 minutes of continual operation. I think hat's off to Mark for having the courage to put this together and show us all what can be done with readliy purchased components as well as the fact that he is prepared to produce them for people who do not want to go through the process of assembling one for themselves.
In my demonstration I have used two 12v 7ah batteries but to generate the 24v required to run the nebuliser it would be better to have two 12v AA packs made up specifically for it. This would obviously save a lot of weight.
I have ordered one of the 12-24v converters as indentified by Subculture and will use that in the circuit when I recieve it to see if I can get down to a single battery.
One thing that will have to be considered with this vapouriser is the fact that, as the fan and the nebuliser are independantly controlled, there is a possibility that the nebuliser can be running with the fan stopped. When this happens vapour escaped through the fan housing and so you would be supplying considerable quantities of water vapour to the inside of your model. This would obviously happen if the fan is connected to a 'Y' lead and regulated from the same speed controller as the motor but the nebuliser has a continuous 24v supply. This could be easily rectified though by the use of a relay in the motor circuit, which is then used to switch the power to the nebuliser so the nebuliser will only operate when the fan is running.
I notice that the 12-24v converter can be purchased at a cheaper rate in bulk so Mark could even consider purchasing a number of them to get the overall cost down and include one with the vapouriser. I know he is looking into options for making the unit more user friendly and this may be of interest to him.
I will let you know how the converter works out when I get it and might even go the whole hog and fit a relay to control the nebuliser.
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Can I just post a warning about testing this type of unit in your wokshop, they atomise water and through it in the air, filling the room with water vapour so all your nice shinny tools get Rusty, the same goes for running steam plants in workrooms, would you spray a waterpistol all over your tools , this is the same , so test em outside for the sake of your tools, but I may be wrong.
Proteus
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Proteus,
My work shop is 16 metres by 8 metres and the temp
over here when I tested the smoker was 21 degrees c.
so I don't think it hurt to much this end............... O0 {-)
Roy
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Can I just post a warning about testing this type of unit in your wokshop, they atomise water and through it in the air, filling the room with water vapour so all your nice shinny tools get Rusty, the same goes for running steam plants in workrooms, would you spray a waterpistol all over your tools , this is the same , so test em outside for the sake of your tools, but I may be wrong.
Proteus
Thanks for the warning. I don't leave the unit running for long but obviously, as with anything else, you should be aware of the dangers of generating water vapour. As long as your space is well ventilated you won't have an issue.
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Proteus,
My work shop is 16 metres by 8 metres and the temp
over here when I tested the smoker was 21 degrees c.
so I don't think it hurt to much this end............... O0 {-)
Roy
next time (or if) I post I will try to take in to acount all 2246 members
Proteus >:(
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Hello All
Over the past few evenings I've done a few tests using food colouring.
For all you afficinadoes wanting to get black or dark brown smoke effects - don't bother!
The water was dyed a real deep black to try and get a dense change in "steam " colour but after a few runs I noticed that the ceramic disc in the nebuliser module was starting to clog in the corners, this may in time ruin the disc. Neither was the steam colour that great --medium to dark grey and nothing to get exited about.
The disc can be removed and cleaned but do you really want to mess about with it after a relaxing Sunday mornings sailing? -- oh dear I've snapped it and Maplins has just closed ,or, if they are open, they've just sold the last one!
Tests with the addition of anti freeze to the water also made no significant difference to steam volume.
kind regards
terry H
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Another significant consideration with doing this is that, as the vapour is cold, it falls on the boat when it is stopped and the colouring will slowly stain your model.
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The colour you get is a function of the droplet size - at the size of fog/mist droplets, vastly bigger than the wavelength of light, all colours are equally scattered (Mie Scattering) hence it's white to the eye. Smaller particles, like gas molecules which are on a par with the wavelength of light, obey Rayleigh Scattering, and make things like the sky blue.
Coal smoke and diesel particulates are carbon soot - naturally black - rough and irregular, and midway in size.
I suspect the only way to get grey/black smoke is to burn carbon in not-enough oxygen.
Andy
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I suspect the only way to get grey/black smoke is to burn carbon in not-enough oxygen.
Andy
Which I would imagine implies the use of oil burning smoke generators?
Malc
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Yes, and burning them fuel-rich. Like an old taxi on start-up.
:-)
Andy
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That's what we need - something that burns bits of tyre in old, used engine oil! {-)
Lance
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That's what we need - something that burns bits of tyre in old, used engine oil! {-)
Lance
Okay....Give me a day or two and I will come up with a prototype!!!! O0
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Obviously the most significant advantage of the vapourising units is that they do not burn oil with a heating element. I personally do not feel comfortable with a source of heat combined with a source of fuel burning away inside my pride and joy while it is sat in the middle of a boating pond.
Using a nebuliser does not require the same amount of power and does not have anything like the same degree of risk attached. The one hot oil unit I did try came complete with a heat resistant mat to mount it on inside the boat because the aluminium body actually became too hot to touch.
Whilst the idea of 'White' smoke could be considered as questionable I prefer it to the risks involved with hot oil units. I have had to accept though that I am never going to see black smoke from a vapouriser. Let's not forget of course that hot oil units also normally generate white smoke and to consider burning anything that will create black smoke is going to make quite a mess of the heating element and run even higher risks of over heating.
Still, the resultant smoke generated by the burning boat should look pretty realistic just before it sinks!! ::)
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Okay Bunkerbarge, you have convinced me.....foreget the prototype idea... :D
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Okay Bunkerbarge, you have convinced me.....foreget the prototype idea... :D
I think for the sake of furthering our knowledge with these things your offer to evaluate and experiment should prove very interesting. Make sure you have a video camera ready though, the results have the potential to look really good on You Tube!! {-) {-)
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All this talk about smoke ... yes, it's usually near-invisible. But here's HMS Inflexible (allegedly) at the Falklands, renowned for being one of the smokiest engagements of the War. Black smoke => bad spotting => awful hit rates.
(http://personal.strath.ac.uk/andrew.goddard/inflexible.jpg)
That's very black indeed.
That said, in the balance between "no smoke" and "white smoke", I think I'd prefer some visual effect and go for white smoke for my Dreadnought - especially when the output is just water droplets which are neither going to stain the model nor destroy the environment.
Andy
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Coal fired warships were indeed notorious for funnel smoke when working up to full speed. Just look at the pictures of Jutland.
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Hello All
As the originator of this topic/post I'd just like to say how pleasant it is to see some gentlemanly banter being passed around!
Congratulations and kind regards
Terry H