Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Model Boating => Topic started by: Martin (Admin) on September 30, 2008, 12:03:15 pm
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I'm in the middle of building a couple of kits at the moment and once again I find myself becoming angrier by the minute at the terrible instructions, plans and diagrams. Is it just me?
I seems sometimes all the time, effort and money are spent on the kit production and the instructions are quickly ‘knocked up’ the night before the kit is released. OK, ok, writing good / useable instructions can't be easy but I tell ya, building to those instructions is much harder! In these days on the 'tinternet, email, CD's, DVD's etc, etc. the instructions can easily be updated, corrected, clarified and freely made available… yet they're not! It does seem that the person writing instructions knows the kit INTIMATELY and forget that we don't and use broad sweeping statements such as, “join the deck to hull with epoxy glue.” Grrrrr!
Some instructions are just guidelines and are not designed to help the modeller build the model in any way, well why not include both, ie. Guidelines AND build instructions?!?! It's also obvious that some instructions are written by someone that has never built the kit… possibly no kit ever! We have moved on in time, expectations and technology but some of the manufactures have stayed in the 1970! Some of the worst offenders just seem to photocopy something / anything and fling them box and send it out……. “Well we stated,” Some modelling experience required.””… naaa, that's not good enough these days!
By far, the most popular topics on this site are Build threads..... nearly tripple the vistor rate than any other subject
I don’t want to ‘name and shame’ or a ‘Scratch versus Kit’ debate here but it would be interesting to quote some of the worst phrases eg.
“cut all the windows out with a sharp craft knife.” ….. there are 50 windows to be cut out!!!
or
“Install the motor and prop shaft and ensure the two are perfectly aligned.”
or
Stage 1. ‘Fit the main and quarter deck, braces and beams.’
Stage 2. ‘Before fitting the decks, you may wish to fit a propulsion motor…..’
BUT, having said all that, what are the best examples of instruction, plans, diagrams you've worked with? O0
Rant over… nurse? My pills please! :D
"It was a dark and stormy night......"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_was_a_dark_and_stormy_night (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_was_a_dark_and_stormy_night)
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Arh, now I brought the Moonbeam yacht kit from Dave Metcalf (well he convinced me at the Midlands Model Boat show 2 years ago, saying things like "even a straight runner like you can do this" !!!!) As the kit wasn't in full production at that time he didn't take my money (nice chap) but sent me all the building instructions and loads of pics (on a disk) of the prototype he had built. Money soon changed hands, huge box duly arrived (and I do mean huge). Updated instructions and pics, as he had found a couple of hic-ups. Well so far during the build no problems at all (he did give me few pointers as well when I saw him). Still early days, and really its the first major kit I have ever built (normally own design and build etc etc), I will be making a few changes, but a recomended kit for sailing types, no sleepless nights (yet) mind you wait until I try and get Mrs Steamboat to sew the sails >>:-(
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Hi Martin!
Today is a good day. There was a knock on the door this morning and there was the mailman with a box from england! Model Slipways FSB Tenby. OK, I haven't started this one yet, but having read through the instructions I can say that they are far better than those following the Billings Smit London kit. With this small and relatively cheap kit I would perhaps expected not so good instructions. So, hurray to them so far! On the other hand it is perhaps even more important with good instructions when you sell a kit that is intended for the not so skilled builder. To me it seems like Model Slipway is a responsible kit supplier. How about their large kits, would love to try them some day.
Cheers.
Hama.
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Must agree with all you say Martin. Sometimes the designer is just very very bad with words but they should recognise their limitations and get someone else to help. Trouble is they will be desparate by that time to get some revenue, and asuage the backlog of eager customers.
It's not just model kits. Car workshop manuals are like that. Stating the bleedin' obvious and leave out the details you really need. However these manuals are often written by academic types with no mechanical nouce who start by copying the last manual and making a few changes. Even worse, on another forum we have just been discussing how some people actually do need a manual to change a puncture to say "Undo the 5 nuts holding the roadwheel ANTICLOCKWISE" and the situation is so bad it might have to become part of the driving test.
Good instructions? I once met someone who actually followed the Meccano instructions to the letter! Anyone else not just look at the picture?
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MY last kit was just like you describe, instructions very unclear and assumed you are are either an expert or a mine reader.
they were laid out as though botched together way after the prototype was finished and whoever wrote them had forgoten
the little tweaks required between cutting out the part an fixing to the model.
also the pictures supplied were of the same craft but a differant version so you could not relate it to your build :IE pic's shows two rubbing straits only one in the kit and on the plans, also when placing deck fittings pictures show a completely differant variation of your build also this kit had parts missing or said supplied with kit, when you enquire they say differant we don't supply that , well they did I took it to Warwick and showed them.
there were other problems as well but enough I think. But I did manage to build her and am pleased with it, but fear this level
of care would and has put others of there kits shame as they do have a good range which seems to have the same problems
with there instructions on many of them I am told with discussions I have had with others , and I did not mention any name until others said was it a ====== kit.
other kit have had smaller problems in fairness the are written by some one who is doing this for a living and has built many
dozons of kits. could we build one and then write the instructions two weeks later. No but then its not our job.
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Best instructions and drawings were with my Robbe Scheultze.
The worst instructions and sketches were with my Caldercraft Milford Star.
For example, the full size drawing is not to scale and a lot of items have been left off it to make it clearer. Excuse me ?
I could go on but lifes to short. >>:-(
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Many, many moons ago I was thoroughly castigated and almost threatened with disembowelling for daring to write that most kits are not quite as good as they purport to be. I also mentioned that building a kit is building someone elses model, which is why I prefer "scratch"....plus the fact that the world is my oyster and therefore not reliant on the offerings of "others". Kits do have a place, but with a few exceptions I would like to consider kits as sort of "starter units" leading the modeller into making his / her own, and not relying on badly produced "instructions". Ho-hum. BY.
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Still banging the same drum Bryan.
Makes me feel I am really home!!
Bob
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Many, many moons ago I was thoroughly castigated and almost threatened with disembowelling for daring to write that most kits are not quite as good as they purport to be. I also mentioned that building a kit is building someone elses model, which is why I prefer "scratch"....plus the fact that the world is my oyster and therefore not reliant on the offerings of "others". Kits do have a place, but with a few exceptions I would like to consider kits as sort of "starter units" leading the modeller into making his / her own, and not relying on badly produced "instructions". Ho-hum. BY.
So to you all model makers who buy kits are rank amateurs. You did not say so but the implication is there.
Building a kit is not "building someone elses model". It is building "our" model.
As Martin said, the instructions are usually crap and us "starters" have to then use our (dare I say this word) skills in getting the kit/boat/model correct. Usually via a lot of research.
Do you mean to say that all kits are only to be considered good enough as "starter" kits, apart from your select few? Would you also say that for those of us who take joy and pride in the finished result, with many hours work, should not show them as you would consider them to be inferior to scratch built models?
The ones on here who buy tug kits. "Starters"? Learners?
A lot of people cannot afford to buy all the necessary tools and equipment with which to make scratch models. A lot of people do not have the skills to scratch build but wish to make a model as a very pleasant pass-time. Mainly with stunning results and by using "skill".
Aren't scratch builders copying plans, usually made by professionals, of full sized boats? Surely a true scratch builder would draw their own, original plans? (No doubt you will say you do).
Yes, instructions can be crap, but once we get, what is to us, an extremely satisfying result that looks as true to the real thing as is humanly possible, that is model building at its best. A result that gets compliments, that looks good, that is our own work regardless of it being a kit after working out the instructions and improving on them. As I have done with all my "kits" plus with research.
Model boating is, surely, about enjoying oneself, taking satisfaction in our hobby, and not to read someone putting us down because we can "only" put kits together.
Or am I wrong?
Ho-ruddy-hum!
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Still banging the same drum Bryan.
Makes me feel I am really home!!
Bob
Bob. Not really the same old drum. I would like to see the kit manufacturers lift their game and supply what the buyers think they are paying for. Not too much to ask,is it?
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Model boating is, surely, about enjoying oneself, taking satisfaction in our hobby, and not to read someone putting us down because we can "only" put kits together.
Or am I wrong?
Ho-ruddy-hum!
Take no notice Ron, Brian is always banging on like this, he just likes to wind people up. O0
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Agree to everybodies comments on here,not all kits are ready made ,parts have to be made and from what plans i have seen i would not dream of building scratch built yet,i can appreciate the older members of this forum went through there apprentiships,kits were not availiable,had to scratch build,they have the time/skills and possibly have all the tools availiable.
But to get to martins point if we need some guidance or like me new [glue hull to deck] what with blu tack,we need them to be more precise.
Toys back in pram
mark
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In the hope of getting this thread back on track....
I think it is very true that some kit manufacturers (but certainly not all) pay insufficient attention to the paperwork side of their products. Otherwise quality models are let down by inadequate plans and/or instructions.
It may be that the people responsible for putting the physical side together are not quite so proficient at producing the documentation but, as previously pointed out, they are probably not the best ones to do it anyway. A competent independent person would almost certainly do a better job as they will not be so intimately involved with the product and will be less prone to making assumptions about the intended builder's level of knowledge. They are also likely to be more consistent in producing the quality of the instructions so that you don't get too much detail on one area while another is skipped over in a perfunctory manner. But, in order to do this you do need a final version of the kit to work with and, as has again been stated, at this point the manufacturer may be getting desperate to get the thing to market to recoup their investment. Commercial reality intrudes as ever, but I do agree that opportunities for correcting things subsequently are not always followed through.
As far as plans are concerned I agree wholeheartedly that the builder really does need accurate ones as these make the process so much easier. However, at least one manufacturer to my knowledge deliberately does not provide accurate full scale plans for fear they will be ripped off and reproduced for sale on the market, Ebay etc, just as may occur with the hulls they provide. Having said that, other manufacturers do provide proper, accurate plans and instructions and more power to their elbow. The best also produce general booklets on modelling techniques, painting tips etc., which can be applied to any of the models in their range and which, when well done, can be really useful to the builder.
This thread is NOT about whether to build kit or scratch but what a purchaser of a kit is entitled to expect when parting with his hard earned shekels.
Colin
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Many, many moons ago I was thoroughly castigated and almost threatened with disembowelling for daring to write that most kits are not quite as good as they purport to be. I also mentioned that building a kit is building someone elses model, which is why I prefer "scratch"....plus the fact that the world is my oyster and therefore not reliant on the offerings of "others". Kits do have a place, but with a few exceptions I would like to consider kits as sort of "starter units" leading the modeller into making his / her own, and not relying on badly produced "instructions". Ho-hum. BY.
So to you all model makers who buy kits are rank amateurs. You did not say so but the implication is there.
Building a kit is not "building someone elses model". It is building "our" model.
As Martin said, the instructions are usually crap and us "starters" have to then use our (dare I say this word) skills in getting the kit/boat/model correct. Usually via a lot of research.
Do you mean to say that all kits are only to be considered good enough as "starter" kits, apart from your select few? Would you also say that for those of us who take joy and pride in the finished result, with many hours work, should not show them as you would consider them to be inferior to scratch built models?
The ones on here who buy tug kits. "Starters"? Learners?
A lot of people cannot afford to buy all the necessary tools and equipment with which to make scratch models. A lot of people do not have the skills to scratch build but wish to make a model as a very pleasant pass-time. Mainly with stunning results and by using "skill".
Aren't scratch builders copying plans, usually made by professionals, of full sized boats? Surely a true scratch builder would draw their own, original plans? (No doubt you will say you do).
Yes, instructions can be crap, but once we get, what is to us, an extremely satisfying result that looks as true to the real thing as is humanly possible, that is model building at its best. A result that gets compliments, that looks good, that is our own work regardless of it being a kit after working out the instructions and improving on them. As I have done with all my "kits" plus with research.
Model boating is, surely, about enjoying oneself, taking satisfaction in our hobby, and not to read someone putting us down because we can "only" put kits together.
Or am I wrong?
Ho-ruddy-hum!
Sorry, sorry and sorry again. I am not, honestly, against kits as such. Nor am I wanting to "put anyone down". The fact remains that people pay out a lot of money for what in some cases turns out to be not worth the outlay. Some are better than others. Read back through some of the postings and you will see an awful lot of dissatisfaction re. bits that don't fit, bits wrongly identified, twisted hulls....in fact an awful lot of disasters and a lot of wasted money. In my own club (Tynemouth), just as an example, we have a member who has been struggling for (literally) years to straighten up a poorly made and warped Battleship hull that cost him an arm and a leg...from a mainstream manufacturer who doesn't want to know. "Fit for purpose" does not seem to apply to some manufacturers who can publish lovely adverts in the mags, but the bit you get is not quite the same. Buyer beware, I guess.
But my main theme re. kit versus scratch is the choice of model. If you want 20 "Bugsier" tugs on your water then go ahead, but if you want a bit of diversity then scratch building is the only other option. It really is not all that different....you just have to make your own kit. A bit like F1 cars that buy in bits from anyone who is capable of supplying them. Cheers. BY.
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Sorry colin
didnt mean to offend you or you skills think i just wandered off track
mark
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Not offended. Basically I'm a scratchbuilder but I think people should get what they pay for. Same point as in Bryan's last post.
Colin
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I must have been lucky with my Moonbeam kit then (must be due to all the years Dave drew for MB), and like Colin (and many others) I prefer to scratch build, I just fell in love with the boat. I don't really think I will be building someone else's model as I will put putting my own things into it (most likely mistakes and c*ck ups) :(
Oh and welcome back Bob O0
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...what are the best examples of instruction, plans, diagrams you've worked with?
Well, they're not very boat-like, but the best instructions I've seen are ones with Ikea flat-packs. They've put a lot of thought and time into demonstrating how the articles should go together, no matter what your language - or, indeed, if you have a language - and that, coupled with the fact that I've never had "missing parts" (thanks MFI) or "dodgy components" (thanks Argos) makes assembly a dream.
There's a lot that kit manufacturers could learn from in that.
Andy, making up my "instruction leaflet" as the Dreadnought progresses...well, really just making it up.
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this reminds me of people who make diagrams /instructions
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh293/craftysod/GetAttachment1.jpg)
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Hi all
Here is food for thought - the other side of the coin. Have you ever tried writing the instructions to explain how to build a kit or a scratchbuild model.....I thought it was relatively easy myself, until I started writing the postings I did on the Master build. The biggest surprise I had were the personal messages I received with regard to both the Swordsman and the Cervia builds.
We all tend to take it for granted that the person/s building the kit/following the instructions/familiarity with the building materials - has/have the same level of knowledge as the writer. Sometimes they do not have the same level of knowledge and it is not because they are slow to learn or incapable of grasping certain things; it is just that they maybe see things in a different light/different way to some of us.
So the next time you are busy - just imagine having to write it all out just so that someone with a 'limited knowledge' can understand.
I know one particular Manufacturer of electrical goods has spent hours on a website carefully putting words together and diagrams to make it virtually foolproof - so things do not go wrong - they still go wrong and he still ends up with a lengthy telephone call - he has to explain the ins and outs.......
Aye
john e
bluebird
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Quite right John, it's not easy. You have to put yourself in the mind of the reader. I had to write reports of various types most of my career and the best technique I evolved was to write the thing as well as I could and then give it to one of my staff to criticise. It always paid off as they came up with something I'd missed or not explained properly.
Colin
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Many of the problems with destructions of course, come from the fact that they were origionally written in a different language, Japanese, Chinese, Italian etc.
They may have been quite satisfactory in their mother language, but much will be lost in translation!
Many translators truly have no idea what it is they are translating, and make no real atempt to make them even remotly comprehensable.
More work should be done in that area, me thinks.
Poorly made components are a totally different thing though, some are new and not had enough design work done....others are at the other side of the spectrum and too OLD, suffering from excessive flash and so on.
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I agree that most plans and kits (Boats, Cars and aircraft!) could do with being better at relaying the "A sticks to B" to the builder of the model. I suppose thats why i mostly scratch build from my own plans as then, if i make a construction (or design) mistake, i only have myself to blame.
Just as a suggestion, when a kit or plan is built from and there is a build thread on this site, the builder is at liberty to give a star * rating for the quality of intructions and the quality of the plans.
At least that way, any prospective builder of that particular model knows (from the * rating) what to expect.
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I have always used instructions as a guide, a source of reference when all else fails, to return to in the hope they put you back on to the right track. O0
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I constructed my Tito Neri (a KIT) I had the plans and they were helpfull though I altered the internals quite a lot to fit various things in (some failed and got changed again) I don't think that kit construction is much different from scratch the end is a model to which the constructor is happy with.
I also constructed a Parrat tug again altering the internals to what was required
both these vessels are from the Graupner stable and I found the plans a good reference point.
R,
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Just as a suggestion, when a kit or plan is built from and there is a build thread on this site, the builder is at liberty to give a star * rating for the quality of intructions and the quality of the plans.
At least that way, any prospective builder of that particular model knows (from the * rating) what to expect.
Yes. And we even have a whole section of this forum "what's in the box" for just this kind of info.
another angle: is the advertising / glossy pictures encouraging people to buy kits that are not well enough supported to match the buyers experience? Is there an equivalent of the Keilcraft and Veron balsa kits to start on or would they look too mundane next to instant grp hulls to get attention?
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There's no doubt that many manufactures do not provide clear and concise instructions with their kits, and, as has been said, assume a certain level of expertise by the builder. I am currently building a Billing "Nordkap", which I think is an excellent kit, but the instructions are somewhat vague. If I had not had experience scratch building a number of boats, I would have been struggling. However, to be fair to Billing, they do say some previous experience is advisable to successfully build this particular model. Despite that statement, I believe the instructions could have been much better, which would surely lead to more sales.
Perhaps Colin Bishop could apply for a job as instruction writer :). He has excellent journalistic skills, as anyone who has read any of his excellent magazine articles will know. O0
Peter.
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Many of the problems with destructions of course, come from the fact that they were origionally written in a different language, Japanese, Chinese, Italian etc.
They may have been quite satisfactory in their mother language, but much will be lost in translation!
Many translators truly have no idea what it is they are translating, and make no real atempt to make them even remotly comprehensable.
More work should be done in that area, me thinks.
I teach translation at a university and my partner (why isn't there a handy English word for 'avovaimo', meaning woman you live with but are not married to?) is a translator, so I can agree to some extent, but you should see the appallingly written material she is often given to work from. It is often obvious that the original writer was verging on being functionally illiterate.
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Writing instructions for anything is a skilled occupation. Just try a little exercise writing down the detailed steps to show someone how to make, say, a cup of coffee assuming they have never seen it done or done it before!
Sadly some manufacturers think writing instructions can be done by anyone and they are presented much as an afterthought.
The problem of translation is a very real one. I have marvelled at some of the instructions on products from the far east which are entirely pictograms, they are very skilfully done, in many cases.
There is also the reverse of the problem referred to by this thread. If the instructions are over elaborate then some modellers will feel patronised!
Roger in France.
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Perhaps Colin Bishop could apply for a job as instruction writer
Thanks Peter. :embarrassed: Trouble is that by the time I'd finished building the thing the manufacturer would have long gone out of business! But you are right, I am surprised that people who do the kit reviews for the magazines do not seem to be approached to do this sort of work. It's false economy really. If you buy a kit with really good instructions you are much more likely to end up with a model to be proud of and equally more likely to go back to the same manufacturer for another one.
The kit I'm intermittently building at the moment also has dreadful instructions and inconsistent plans. For £350 or so, which is a typical kit price, I could easily rewrite them in intelligible form. Starting from scratch would obviously take a bit longer as it's usually (but not always) easier to edit somebody else's work than conjure up your own. You do have to have a knack for this sort of writing and in some ways it's not dissimilar to computer programming as both require a logical sequence of statements to get the desired result.
Colin
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Trouble is that by the time I'd finished building the thing the manufacturer would have long gone out of business!
Colin and Martin - model boat builders - cousins in spirit! {-)
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Hmm...you guys should try building subs.
My USS Bluback was such a ba***rd to build that in the end Ramesh(wheelerdealer)had to come to my rescue and sort the bl**dy thing out for me. OK, plenty of backup from Steve in the States, but no written instructions whatsoever, no idea of how to get 'part A' attached to 'part B' with 'part C' added as well. Same with U-33...I could have done with something in black and white when tackling the linkages for the X-tail rudders. Again, plenty of backup online from Steve, but the Americans are on a different time scale to us, so you have to wait for twenty fours hours or so to find out which is 'part bl***y C'!!!
My USS Dragonfish which is on the slipway now is a modded Revell Gato, it's being converted to a post war Guppy boat, and I'm totally on my own with it...I have to work out how to make 'parts A,B and C', then fathom out how to attach them, then work out how to make them work together.
But we all enjoy a challenge, don't we lads? Lads?
Lads?. Don't we.....?
Lads?
Rich
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Designing and producing a kit is an engineering skill, writing instructions is a literary skill which a lot of designers/engineers do not always posess. When I started producing model submarine kits the instructions I inhereted with the boats I built were basic but useable but I used to get a lot of calls from clients asking for more detailed info. It became apparent that although I understood all there was to know about the construction, the customer did not posess the same level of skill and knowledge and indeed some of them had never built a model of anything, let alone a submarine!
As a rolling programme I re-wrote the instruction sheets and generally improved them based on the queries from clients as I want people to enjoy their model from start to finish and ease of construction is vital in this area.
Researching, designing and producing the Type2D German coastal submarine was a mountain to climb and took about two and a half years with lots of headaches and wringing of hands and at the end of the process I was confronted with a kit with something like 40 mouldings. It was my intention to make a kit which anyone could build and to that end I set about producing very comprehensive instructions. Given that complete modelling novices may wish to build this boat led to an instruction manual which had to be very detailed and comrehensive as I had to put myself in the same mindset as a raw beginner to modelling. This is the secret of producing instruction manuals but it can lead to lenghty and detailed explanations which skilled modellers may deem superfluous. As there is a degree of soldering to be done, I even had to include instructions on how to solder as a heck of a lot of modellers do not posess such skills.
All in all, the manual runs to 84 pages which is a large manual and it took me about two and a half months of solid slog at the computer, writing, scrapping and re-writing many sections in order to get it right. The end result is that build queries from clients are rare but when I do get calls they are usually praise for the model AND the instructions!
It is extremely important to get this area of kits right as the instructions are of equal importance to the kit itself. There is nothing worse than lousy instructions with anything and if poor instructions result in a newcommer making a 'pigs ear' of his first boat it can put him off modelling for life .
Chris
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I have a Sheerline kit on my slipway at the moment.
Don't tell Chris but the instructions are quite good, very conversation! O0
.... Could do with few more diagrams / photos though.
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An example of what people are saying re: instructions being difficult.
For a job, I design computer systems and have a team of guys who work for me. One of the chaps who works for me is a technical writer, which is just a fancy word for saying "the lady who writes the instructions" but there is a bit more to it than just that.
When I first set up the team, I thought this would be an easy role to fill, but it has been the hardest of any of them. In the course of three years, I've had 5 technical writers, all with supposedly good backgrounds on their CV's, but the first 4 were, to be frank, useless. For a while I just put it down to general stupidity, but then I had a go myself, and found it exceptionally difficult. It would seem that some people just can't write good instructions, and other people can. And even if you instinctively can, it still takes a lot of practise.
I have found that if I seperate my tech writer from the rest of the project, results get better. That way, they haven't been involved in the "nuts and bolts" of the project while it was being designed and built, and so when they come to write instructions, they ask the same questions, and want to know the same things as someone who has just picked up the instruction manual and they don't subconciously assume knowledge becuase they have been involved with something for months.
I have a feeling though, that most places which product boat kits don't have the luxury of employing someone just to write instructions. i wonder though if they couldn't find time to dish the instructions out to friends and see what they think.
Steve
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Hi Martin, let me know what boat you have, it could be an early one from the dark days and as I said, I have done a lot to improve on the original instructions and I have completely re-written most of them. If I can assist you with any of this, I will....it is what I am here for... subs should collect limpets or pondweed...not dust! ;)
Ripslider, you are quite correct in what you say but for me personally, I am head cook and bottle washer here so I had to put myself in a complete novices position when I wrote all my stuff up. It works ok so long as you have the ability to swap roles but I soon learned that writing manuals is a special skill and one which I hope I have now successfully aquired. I still get other people to proof read them though and thats where my wife comes in very handy.
I found it very intense and stimulating and it certainly stretches your spelling and grammer... an area where I always have room for improvement!
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My comments are not aimed at any manufacturer in particular...
The blame for unclear and poorly worded instructions lies fairly and squarely at the door of the kit manufacturer. It SHOULD be a simple task for a manufacturer to put his thoughts and ideas into writing to convey his message in a clear and concise manner. Few can however.
I write technical papers as part of what I do for a living, and every time that I do write one, having first put my own initial thoughts on paper, then re-visit that which I've written and ask myself "I know that I understand what I'm trying to say, but will everybody else who reads it as well"? Almost all of the work that I produce is subject to my own subsequent extensive re-writing or revision.
The standards of written and spoken English in the UK are frankly appalling. The use of correct grammar and spelling seem to be a forgotten art and are now considered to be unimportant. You only have to read the posts on this Forum for confirmation of that fact.
Of course there are some less able than others, and allowances must be made when appropriate. I do however firmly believe that any modeller, having paid his good money is fully entitled to clear and unambiguous instructions with his kit. If a manufacturer isn't capable of producing these himself, he should pass the task to somebody who can.
Malc
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Model boating is, surely, about enjoying oneself, taking satisfaction in our hobby, and not to read someone putting us down because we can "only" put kits together.
Or am I wrong?
Ho-ruddy-hum!
Take no notice Ron, Brian is always banging on like this, he just likes to wind people up. O0
DickyD,
Brian certainly did just that! After a couple of really naff weeks, a rollocking of sorts from a consultant yesterday and other things going on, it did not take much to "tip" me.
I shouldn't take it to heart but you see my point?
Back to the thread though; there are brilliant kits out there with poor, almost non-existent instructions and some with the most terrible parts that need to be replaced, usually at extra cost. Wood to be replaced, fittings etc, etc, but have very clear, concise instructions. Sometimes with photos included.
I also think that part of the problem could be that some of these poorly put together packages are of an older date and have been on the shelve a while and that this is not made clear to the buyer. The kit/package/instruction is old but the only thing changed is the price tag which has gone up/been altered to compere with similar, newer models and to reflect todays prices. Old for new so to speak. I may be wrong but!
Ron.
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Model boating is, surely, about enjoying oneself, taking satisfaction in our hobby, and not to read someone putting us down because we can "only" put kits together.
Or am I wrong?
Ho-ruddy-hum!
Take no notice Ron, Brian is always banging on like this, he just likes to wind people up. O0
DickyD,
Brian certainly did just that! After a couple of really naff weeks, a rollocking of sorts from a consultant yesterday and other things going on, it did not take much to "tip" me.
I shouldn't take it to heart but you see my point?
Back to the thread though; there are brilliant kits out there with poor, almost non-existent instructions and some with the most terrible parts that need to be replaced, usually at extra cost. Wood to be replaced, fittings etc, etc, but have very clear, concise instructions. Sometimes with photos included.
I also think that part of the problem could be that some of these poorly put together packages are of an older date and have been on the shelve a while and that this is not made clear to the buyer. The kit/package/instruction is old but the only thing changed is the price tag which has gone up/been altered to compere with similar, newer models and to reflect todays prices. Old for new so to speak. I may be wrong but!
Ron.
Are we reconciled again? Hope so. Appreciate your high pressure job. Just go on and beat the "F"s.
On a similar but unrelated note....a few of the "newspapers" are reporting that Lewis is not the best liked guy in the pits. He seems to come across as an OK bloke. Bitchy, jealous or something else?
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Ron...you wrong? :o Never...you can't be wrong? :o My hero...admitting he was wrong? ::)
No way...only team owners of red cars ever do that. (in private, of course....where nobody can hear them)
Rich
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"I tolda you we shoulda never have leta thata Shomucker leavea the teama..."
The private thoughts of Luca de Whatsisface....
Rich
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Can we get back on Topic please? If you want to discuss F1 there is another thread available.
Colin
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Humble and grovelling apologies Colin...my fault.
Rich :embarrassed:
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No, don't think so. It's easy for things to go off at a tangent. Just the Moderator's job to get things back in line - sometimes! O0
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The other side of the coin that does not seem to have been mentioned is that different folks have different ways of reading and learning so maybe there needs to be three versions of all instructions, one for smart "xxxxx", one for people who have never built before and one for those of us with some experience and enough memory left to remember some of how we did it last time O0 I remember the tutor who taught us to be teachers in an Adult Teaching Certificate course explaining that there are three ways of learning - visual, auditory and kinesthetic (watching, listening or doing). I wont go in to all the details but his way of explaining has always stuck with me :-
Some of you will learn by watching me :o
Some of you will learn by listening to me :angel:
The rest of you will just have to pee on the electric fence ! :D
Final point - isnt this problem just what we have forums for ???
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Final point - isn't this problem just what we have forums for ???
I agree absolutely - and I believe that this Forum is serving us all very well in that respect. It is after all a microcosm of life itself - Mayhem!
Malc
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Final point - isn't this problem just what we have forums for ???
I agree absolutely - and I believe that this Forum is serving us all very well in that respect. It is after all a microcosm of life itself - Mayhem!
Malc
Beautifully put Malc.....
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I think there are some very relevent points raised here and I have three sets of kit instructions in my garage at the moment, a Mount Fleet Ben Ain, A Slipways Envoy and a Caldercraft Joffre and all refer to models that I would not recommend for a beginner.
The trouble is of course that the small manufacturers do not have the resorces to be able to test, evaluate and rewrite instruction sets to ensure that they are suitable for all skill levels. Even the big manufacturers sometimes get this wrong and they do have the suitable resources available. As Bluebird rightly points out it is one of the most difficult things to do to create a set of instructions to build something from the point of view of someone who does not have access to your own thoughts and levels of knowledge. Without a doubt instructions should be put together by an amateur who has never seen the kit before but of course the small manufacturers just cannot afford the time or expense involved with such a luxury.
At the end of the day then where does that leave us? Well I think we can only suggest to beginners that they start with a kit from a larger manufacturer who should have put together the best set of instructions but, probably more importantly, when we do identify faults or shorcomings in instruction sheets created by smaller manufacturers we pass these shortcomings on to them and hope that they take them on board and edit thier instructions regularly. In this day and age of computer generated instruction sheets and the absence of the print shop in the equation it should be a relatively easy thing for any of them to do.
So let's make sure that we always communicate any faults or improvements we come across back to the manufacturer and if they they fail to respond they only have them selves to blame when they are on the recieving end of further critisism.
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I agree that there is an issue about just what level of knowledge to assume when writing instructions but some manufacturers do provide general purpose "how to do things" booklets which can be used by less experienced builders and ignored by the more practised ones. A short booklist wouldn't come amiss too. Once you get beyond basic plastic kits you are entering the realm of craftmanship to a greater or lesser extent and it's not unreasonable to expect people to take a bit of effort to broaden their knowledge base. For the more complex models I wonder how much it would cost to stick one of the more popular books into the box. There are several good ones on constructing and fitting out R/C Boats which would save trying to explain it all again in detail in the instructions. Just a thought anyway.
Colin
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Bryan Young.
O0
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I have recently built (assembled, bodged, thrown together ---whatever) a Thunder Tiger E.T.N.Z. kit for a friend of mine.
I must say that the instructions are VERY well written; they are a superb example of an idiots guide and do exactly what it says on the box.
I understand that the kits are manufactured in China, it is my opinion that whoever wrote these instructions has an excellent knowledge and understanding of
the English language- searching the booklet (again superb) I could only find a couple of minor errors and these could easily be "typos" .
Well done Thunder Tiger and well done Martin for raising an issue which I am sure has caused frustration for many
Best regards
Clegg
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This is going to be a bit cheeky as I am not able to contribute myself but:
We have identified a problem so is there anything we can do to improve the situation?
If somone gets or hopefully while thinking of getting a certain kit they are likely to google it. If we have good content that responds to that search then they will find it, and get suitable advice, comment, star rating etc.
The 'What's in the box' section provides the location but I suggest a clearer name might be simply 'Model Kit reviews'.
Each entry needs a clear standardised title that is the kit's name and manufacturer plus type for casual viewers eg 'HotFish by BiggaBoats - Steam Trawler'. All picture files probably need the title too so google images finds it. The threads idealy should be edited to remove fluff and improve the English so that it becomes a worthwhile reference point.
It would also be nice to do the same for published plans, especially as pictures and description are often poor. Remember the old MAP plans handbook with its poor photos or line drawings? Just the same in its internet form yet someone must have made many of these so good photos should be available.
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I can also sympathise with the manufactureres here. Having had to write user manuals for software, it is very difficult if you built the thing to write instructions for those how have not. It is easy to assume prior knowledge.
And even though some people may be familiar, others will be complete novices.
We were tought to write for the novice. The experts will skip through this anyway.
When was the last time I read the instructions for a kettle? Umm....
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As they say, "When all else fails, read the instructions".
Of course you've broken it by then....
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Or built it and got lots of bits left over :D
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Or built it and got lots of bits left over :D
Isn't that because YOUR good and it was possibly over engineered any way?
Well thats what I tell the spanner and it works for me. {-)
Oh and I am thoroughly enjoying reading this thread
R,
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Coming in late on this one, but I've been on holiday.
I spent the last twenty-odd years of my working life as a technical author writing operating instructions and maintenance manuals, first for the aircraft industry, then for a company making TV camera support equipment.
All the previous posts have made valid points. There are no excuses for poor instructions - they should all be tested and evaluated before publication. However, many companies use their designers or engineers to write the manuals and they are often too close to the problems to appreciate them, and have a familiarity with the product that prevents them seeing things the way a potential customer will. But, it's cheaper than employing a technical author!
Likewise translations, which should be carried out and verified by competent nationals of the target country - just getting an English national rather than an English speaker to read and correct the translation would iron out most of the problems. As an aside, I can tell you that translation is tremendously expensive and is usually the first cost to be cut! My translation budget exceeded my salary by a considerable amount. Translating a five page ops guide into six languages cost (in 2006) about £8,000. Far cheaper to get the SEO's wife, who did French at A level, to translate it.
Having said all that, there is a defence - of sorts - for unintelligible instructions. One of the first things an author is taught is to identify his readership.This is pretty easy when you are writing for aircraft engineers or brain surgeons - it is possible to assume a common level of education or intelligence. Not so easy when dealing with modelmakers. Anything from a nine-year-old schoolboy (my first Airfix kit) to a ninety-year-old retired university professor (well, there must be one) and everything in between. Writing to suit all of them would be difficult, but not impossible. It would be expensive and would need to be recovered in the cost of the kit. There are people in this forum more qualified than I to tell us what percentages and profits would be affected, but I suspect that the price rise might be prohibitive.
Rick
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Well said, Rick.
My point earlier was that all instructions should be written by a technical author.
It has always amazed me that some writers never think to ask another person to read through what they write. When working and writing a report I frequently went to the most junior and inexperienced member of staff and asked them, "Please read this and tell me if it makes sense to you". Frequently it didn't!
The fact is that when we write something and check it ourself we read what we want to see.
I have seen material which has the relevant, standard reading age attached to it. I have also seen tables giving the relevant reading age for national newspapers....very illuminating!
It is also amusing to notice how many folk think you can write as you speak. You can't, these are two different skills.
Also, reading out loud what another has written is a different skill.
I could tell you of some amusing blunders I have made trying to write technical/legal things in French but I will avoid embarrassing myself.
Roger in France.
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Anything from a nine-year-old schoolboy (my first Airfix kit) to a ninety-year-old retired university professor (well, there must be one) and everything in between.
Surely thats like running the gamut from A to B?
Instruction writing really is an art and an ability that is totally unappreciated by the bean counters. They should always be proofed by someone else with low knowledge of the subject, but reasonable nous and enough brass neck to ask pertinent questions, and get answers.
Similarly translation, even moreso technical translation. We have all rolled around laughing at Korean instruction manuals translated into English by a Hungarian using a phrase book, but what do the Koreans have from us as examples? Or do we just print loud and slow? Or do we rely on them studying English?
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I have read somewhere that the British manufactureres do have a reputation providing poor or sometimes totally inadequate instructions. And some modellers in the US will avoid buying British and other Europeanp products for this very reason.
There is another part to add to the equation though.
Big Manufacturers have no excuses. But as has been pointed out Thunder Tiger produce good instructions, and Robbe produce excellent downloadable instructions.
Many of the kit manufacturers are however 'owner drivers' (Moms and Pops), and they may not have the skills, cannot afford to buy in the skills, or may simply be too busy to cope with the additional burden.
However, if I can use Victor Models in California as an example. Everything I see about VM gives me the impression that this is a small company and the owner George Dornis seems to have his fingerprints on every aspect of his business. He is like many traders, very busy, does not answer emails sometimes, provides parts that need replacing (which he does) or need some working on, etc (all the usual foibles). But he does provide extensive stiep by step instruction books with many many photographs, and many pages. The instructions are not perfect, but as a beginer I found them intelligable and extremely userful.
Maybe in the American customers have a higher expectation.
VM sells all over the world. And some of his models have a huge following (e.g. Soling 1m)
So perhaps the message to small traders is that even if you don't think you have time, spending the time/money to provide good instructions may well help you increase you customer base significantly.