Model Boat Mayhem

The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Sports Boats R&D: => Topic started by: stobby256 on September 30, 2008, 12:29:39 pm

Title: What Transmitter?
Post by: stobby256 on September 30, 2008, 12:29:39 pm
Hi All,

What's the poular Transmitters that you guys use? I've got a FF7 and FF6 that I use for aircraft, but alas they are 35MHz. I have an OLD HiTec 40MHz FM also, but I'm looking for something a bit better, i.e. 4 channel 40MHz or even 2.4GHz bt Im not sure if the wallet will stretch that far!!! >>:-(

Also, The Aircraft Tx's have the throttle stick that goes from top to bottom, and the 40MHz one has one centred by a spring so I can use reverse if I have to.

What do you all use???  :o
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: Martin (Admin) on September 30, 2008, 12:43:56 pm
See: http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=12987.0
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: portside II on September 30, 2008, 12:51:28 pm
Hi stobby , thats on of the q's i have wheather to go for a 2gig set maybe some of the lads will be able to answer all of our questions.
as for your hitecand the sticks , i have an eclipse7 and had the spring removed and the ratchet fitted on the throttle (left stick) to match the other side , i didnt do it but it looked easy .
My question regarding 2gig sets is which one is best (6ch) whats a fsst thingy with the futaba sets ,how come some recivers are two piece , whats the battery life on the tx , can you get replacement batterys ( i bought one from vapex for my hitec) and will hitec be bringing out a 2gig radio .
lots of questions  hope i have not hijacked your thread  :angel: .
daz
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: andyn on September 30, 2008, 02:23:17 pm
Is the FF7 not modular?

If so you could get a 2.4 gig module for it.

Dont get a spektrum for an IC boat, the recievers wont go in properly ( watch the debate start)
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: wideawake on September 30, 2008, 02:37:34 pm
Hi Portside

The answers to most of your technical questions are in either my DX6 review or the other article on R/C developments in recent editions of MB.   In short FASST and DSM are two different ways of achieving the freedom from interference characteristic of 2.4GHz equipment.  FASST uses "frequency hopping" and DSM uses "spread spectrum" and transmits on 2 frequencies at once.

Andyn - what do you mean by "the receivers won't go in properly"?   Do you mean they physically won't fit or that there are electrical problems? 

Cheers

Guy
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: wideawake on September 30, 2008, 03:22:17 pm
Apologies for follwing up my own post!   The article on R/C with particular reference to 2.4GHz is on the MB website at

http://www.modelboats.co.uk/news/article/mps/uan/158

Cheers

Guy
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: Sandy Calder on September 30, 2008, 03:55:33 pm
F 9 1/2 a 2-ch system with ch3 6 way homebrew multiswitch and ch4  lever pot from S.L.M. model engineering.
About a tenth of the cost of its Futaba cousin.
Can be done to many old Futaba and Hitec sets or a pound or two.
The third one started out as a kitchen appliance. Just kidding!
It's used for centrfuging bubbles out lightweight resin castings.
(http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo158/sandy_calder/th_multiswitch003.jpg) (http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo158/sandy_calder/multiswitch003.jpg)(http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo158/sandy_calder/th_multiswitch001.jpg) (http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo158/sandy_calder/multiswitch001.jpg)(http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo158/sandy_calder/th_centrifuge001-1.jpg) (http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo158/sandy_calder/centrifuge001-1.jpg)


 
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: Bill D203 on September 30, 2008, 03:57:33 pm
The very best thing i did was spend out £120 for a 2.4GHZ Futaba TX & RX . All my probs that I was having with 40MHz Sanwa stuff went away. The only thing i kick myself for, is i didn't get it earlier this year.
Best of luck.
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: andyn on September 30, 2008, 04:31:22 pm
Andyn - what do you mean by "the receivers won't go in properly"?   Do you mean they physically won't fit or that there are electrical problems? 

I mean that DSM2 recievers have a reciever and a sattelite module, which need to be six inches apart and at 90 degrees to each other, which isn't possible in an average radio box. In my cars it isn't a problem because you can stick the sattelite at the other end of the chassis

If however you go for an RX without the second bit, with Spektrum this is despite what they say only a half range receiver, and will probably be useless when you're on the other end of the lake, theres two other boats right next to yours, and the boat is going 40 odd miles an hour.

I second what Bill said, the 6EX2.4 he has sorted all the problems in the Makara.
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: wideawake on September 30, 2008, 06:08:14 pm
Hi Andyn

I take your point about fitting things in a radio box.  I don't have that sort of boat so wouldn't have that problem as such (I usea DX6/AR6000 ATM).    Two thoughts, you may find the AR500 receiver of interest.   It's a DSM2 unit but all the electronics is in one box and the second aerial is at the end of a length of thin feeder.   While you may not be able to achieve precisely 6 inch separation my tests on the DX6 with AR6000 receiver found that aerial spacing and position is less critical than is implied in the instructions.

WRT using a DSM rather than DSM2 receiver I don't think Spektrum specify the difference likely in range but simply describe the DSM units as "parkflyer".   I found that I got 200 yards range across water with the DX6/AR6000 and that was with the two aerials twisted together.   That's more than enough for my purposes.  I'm not sure what ranges you need for your boats.    However in spite of all that I believe that both Futaba and Spektrum units have been (rarely) known to lose lock when used in high speed severe spray conditions.   Proximity of other boats shouldn't be significant radio-wise but obviously makes the danger of a loss of control greater.  In my article I express reservations about the use of 2.4GHz gennerally in high speed craft unless a reliable external throttle failsafe is in use.

I'd be very interested in your experiences.   

Cheers

Guy
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: Bill D203 on September 30, 2008, 06:59:18 pm
Hi Guy
I did have loads of problems using 40MHz Fm RC. The range was very hit and miss. After talking to several OMRA members they had all had radio problems when using 26cc Zen engines. I came to my own conclusion it was causing problems to the receiver because of the HT system. After trying to race at Bryn Bach during the summer my old set up kept on cutting out at the same point on the course.  I went for a Futaba 2.4 set up. The Ariel set up was a piece of cake, they come out of the radio box in two plastic tubes at 90 deg to each other.  I took my boat up to Llanberis in Aug. I had a very large lake to run on. Haven. I had the boat out at 40mph only turning back when it was going out of safe sight range. ( A long way from the TX).  500m + I did not have any problems and nor do any of the OMRA D class chaps. It has to be said that there are times when you can't see the rear of the boat from the spray. Again no problem.
As yet I have not found anything that upsets it unlike my old ( Now very much) Ex 40MHz setup.
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: Subculture on September 30, 2008, 08:22:24 pm
If you ever have any intention of owing a model submarine, then give the 2.4GHZ stuff a miss.
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: Bill D203 on September 30, 2008, 08:28:08 pm
My Makara sometimes dose a barrel roll but it don't stay down for long.
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: wideawake on September 30, 2008, 11:07:24 pm
If you ever have any intention of owing a model submarine, then give the 2.4GHZ stuff a miss.

......or use 2.4GHz for everything except the sub!   WRT 2.4GHz you're absolutely right.   I couldn't gewt a signal through 12 inches of water with the TX 4 feet away during tests.   Not really surprising given that microwave ovens work!

Guy
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: andyn on October 01, 2008, 05:55:03 pm
I couldn't get a signal through 12 inches of water


Well try and keep the boat afloat next time....
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: portside II on October 01, 2008, 10:32:10 pm
Guy , having read the review in MB i think i will go for a 2.4g set up ,still not decided which one but i am leaning towards the futaba system.
I did hear that there maybe a 2.4g system from the Hitec stable but cant find anything on the net . Also someone at Blane moor mentioned that there maybe a radio specificly dedicated towards the marine modeler , has anyone any ideas .
Cant say i will be using ,or even trying to use 2.4g on submesible craft , and if my boat sinks then its tough  {-)
daz
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: wideawake on October 01, 2008, 11:25:20 pm
I certainly think 2.4GHz is the way to go.   I'm impressed with the Spektrum range of kit but can't comment on the Futaba as I haven't used their TX/RX.  I'm not aware of anything from Hitec but I wouldn't be surprised if they get into the 2.4GHz market soon.   WRT boat orientated units it may be the Spektrum DX5e being talked about.  that is a "full range" outfit but with very limited programmable options compared with the Dx6 or DX6i.  Sold as a TX/RX kit so ideal for fitting in boats already equipped with servos.   DSM2 technology but backwards compatible with earlier DSM RXs.  DX5e also uses 4 x AA cells rather than a dedicated 9.6V battery pack.

WRT submersibles - I agree if it sinks then it's too late to worry!

Cheers

Guy
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: garston1 on October 06, 2008, 01:31:04 am
I've used a Spektrum DX6 for about 6 months and i would recommend it to anyone. The only niggley thing is the small delay when you switch on. For a few seconds it seems like your radios broke, but obviously it must be the receiver searching or setting itself. Apart from that it's a well built piece of kit and I've seen full sets selling on Ebay for around £70 ! A bargain espescially when it's 6 channel with a 10 model memory. Try and buy one without servos as the Three servos that come with it are for 'park flyers', mini servos. They have plenty of torque but are a bit fiddly. They would be ideal however if you are going to RC smaller Revell type model kits, you won't get better.
As i have mentioned on another Mayhem Forum, i also use my transmitter attached to a 12v 7amp Yuasa battery over my shoulder, taking the charging socket out of the back (which is by the way that no-one seems to mention is reverse polarity to Futaba, hiTec, Acoms, Sanwa ETC ) and threading the wire through the empty hole. Instead of 9.6v the display can show up to 13.5v ! I've lost 0.2 of a volt over 6 months, that's not bad is it?   
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: andyn on October 06, 2008, 05:50:57 pm
I can now also reccomend the DX5, as Greg has one in his new boat (not revealing what it is) and he reckons its very good.
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: omra85 on November 01, 2008, 09:56:22 pm
As I need a proportional channel that is not on either of the 2 sticks (for mixture) i found that the Spektrum or the Futaba 6 are no good.
The Futaba 7C DOES have a knob for the 6th channel so I started looking at getting that.  The price was a bit OTT, with most shops selling the complete set for about £240 - but then I noticed a strange thing - the set comes with 4 digital 3052? servos which are high torque and normally sell for £25 each!  Then a local form (Midland Helicopters) have reduced the price to £209 for the set which means the Tx/Rx is the equivalent of £109 and puts it firmly in the same ball park as the Spektrum but with better functions.
I'm waiting to see if anyone at the show next week, will have a better deal.
Danny
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: martno1fan on November 08, 2008, 06:43:10 pm
Go with 2.4 futaba fasst do not use spektrum in a boat they just dont work well in fact i have two friends who tried spektrum and both crashed,one at over 55 mph into a concrete bank destroying his cat.Fasst is faultless i use a futaba 6ex heli radio and run my receiver enclosed in the box with the two antennas as far to 90% away from each other as possible with no problems so far even at 200 yrds away.By the way spektrums designers even say dont use them in a boat as they dont work very well over water.
Mart
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: wideawake on November 08, 2008, 07:01:44 pm
I'd be interested to know which Spektrum set caused a crash.    I've heard anecdotally of problems but not just related to Spektrum.   Was the problem apparently due to spray or no specific cause.   Did the crash occur because of a failure of the fail-safe?  Did the model rely on the built-in Smart Failsafe (if so was it properly set up) or was there an external one?   I can't imagine a boat capable of that speed was running without one.

I'm interested because I tried to simulate conditions which would provoke a circuit failure in test conditions and failed to do so at 100 yards with the low power button pressed.

BTW the Horizon Hobbies website does seem to endorse the Spektrum DX5e as suitable for boats.   Personally, based on my tests,  I think they're fine for 95% of users who don't have boats running at the speeds you quote.  At less than £60 they were flying off the shelves at the show today.

Guy - using a DX6 happily with steam and sail
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: portside II on November 08, 2008, 09:34:25 pm
Well i wont put down any radio whatever its name , but i will say this i had my tug out on the water for the first time today ,opperating on 2.4ghz with my new futaba , no glitches and with the new battery in the radio after 2 hours the voltage was still good.
Oh and the ACTion bec works a treat dave  :-)) without the backup battery switched on ,might even remove it if i can be bothered to undo the case and get it out .
And my reciever antenna's are just stuffed in the plastic project box about 2.5" x 4" ,no 90deg's there and no prob's
daz
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: martno1fan on November 08, 2008, 11:43:09 pm
I'd be interested to know which Spektrum set caused a crash.    I've heard anecdotally of problems but not just related to Spektrum.   Was the problem apparently due to spray or no specific cause.   Did the crash occur because of a failure of the fail-safe?  Did the model rely on the built-in Smart Failsafe (if so was it properly set up) or was there an external one?   I can't imagine a boat capable of that speed was running without one.

I'm interested because I tried to simulate conditions which would provoke a circuit failure in test conditions and failed to do so at 100 yards with the low power button pressed.

BTW the Horizon Hobbies website does seem to endorse the Spektrum DX5e as suitable for boats.   Personally, based on my tests,  I think they're fine for 95% of users who don't have boats running at the speeds you quote.  At less than £60 they were flying off the shelves at the show today.

Guy - using a DX6 happily with steam and sail

A friend from the states talked to a  guy at spektrum when he was having issues and he told him they are not suitable for boats so seems odd that they advertise them to use in boats at horizon?.The problem with spektrum is the channel hopping been only on two channels it just doesnt work consistantly on water whereas fasst does and is proven on water.All the guys in the states use fasst because of all the failures with spektrums on water.My mate who ran his cat with spektrum had it set up fine and everything was working fine then off the boat went on its own no failsafe in the boat its on the radio itself.Silly fool then gave it another chance in another boat and guess what you guessed it same outcome.Also i may add theres a big difference between a gas boat and electric too,but i wouldnt use spektrum in any fast boat period its not worth the risk,by the way that was his boats very first outing and ive read it numerous times and have researched the spektrum versus fasst thing considerably before switching from fm to fasst.Im no techno but ive asked the question on two diff forums and allways the same answer dont use spektrum use futaba fasst.I think ive come across maybe one or two guys who have used spektrum and they said it was ok but they were the only ones everyone else who had tried them said they had problems with either losing signal or the failsafe kicking in for no apparent reason.All i can say is ive not heard of any problems like that with the fasst system.As for the dx6 i was told catagoricaly by the seller theyre not suitable for boats,be interesting if you could get in touch with spektrum and find out what they say  ok2.
Mart
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: martno1fan on November 09, 2008, 12:37:26 am
Heres a thread on what im talking about from the other forum,spektrum confirmed to a model shop owner they are not suitable for use in boats whereas futaba say the fasst system is fine and some fasst systems even have boat mode built in  ok2.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8063223/anchors_8063223/mpage_1/key_spektrum/anchor/tm.htm#8063223 (http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8063223/anchors_8063223/mpage_1/key_spektrum/anchor/tm.htm#8063223)
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: wideawake on November 09, 2008, 09:12:33 am
Hi

Thanks for that info.   It does seem as if your cross-pondian friend had a very nasty experience.  I have no direct experience of Futaba equipment in use.   As I said, my kit is a Spektrum DX6.  I have been researching 2.4GHz generally recently though.   I have heard that the Spektrum sets MAY have issues with their fail-safe when an ESC is used, hence my comment on the use of an external fail-safe unit.   

WRT use in boats -  to quote from the DX6 page of their website “Boats and ‘bots - The DX6 is ideally suited for both boats and robots as well as ultralight planes and helicopters but remember with boats, keep the aerials above the water and for robots use the dedicated ‘bot’ receiver SPM6000BR, which incorporates programmable fail-safes on all channels”.   Given that the DX6i and DX5e have twice the built-in redundancy of the DX6, I canot see that the same comments would not apply to them as well.

However experience is more valuable than anything!

BTW without getting too technical, Futaba uses frequency hopping but Spektrum doesn't.   Spektrum DSM locks on to two vacant channels and transmits on them simultaneously.  Intereference protection is provided by the addition (TX) and then subtraction (RX) of pseudo-random noise  to the signal.   DSM2 still uses two channels but doubles the receive capability.

Cheers

Guy

I have no view on which system is technically more robust.
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: martno1fan on November 09, 2008, 10:53:51 am
Hi guy your right spektrum doesnt hop it locks onto one of two channels but for some reason they just dont seem to work well on water consistantly at least in a boat at speed.Might be ok in a slow boat i dont know ?,i know guys flying planes off water using it just fine so maybe been off the water to some extent helps there.Actually the guy with the cat i talked about is from the uk,i forget exactly which unit he used.The fasst system uses the hopping and that seems to work flawlessly in all uses be it ground ,air or water.I think airtronics have now got a new 2.4 system that channel hops and that works well on water from what ive heard.You seem more technically minded than me all i know is from experience with the fasst it works and that spektrum from what ive been told and read has issues.Maybe an email to them might clear a few things up?.
Mart
ps ill find out which radio caused the glitch for you when i speak to my mate.the radio runs flawless in his trucks just glitched in his boats.Hes still using it now but in a truck.
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: PkBoo on November 28, 2008, 11:56:11 am
Hmmm, I just got a 2.4Ghz Spektrum DX5e last week cause I was having some probs with a Robbe BL ESC with my FM radio and it seem to work just fine even with the antenna´s under the deck. It´s a quite speedy boat (not measured yet!) and the radio worked flawlessly from the git go. I did run it into a concrete embankment, I was lucky not to have so much damage, but that was my own fault. The controls where the other way around to what I am used to and I got that gut wrenching four letter word with a scream out <*< The boat has a bumper now :-)) Let´s see if we have no probs in the long run as I intend to order the receivers for my other boats as well. The sub can have one of the FM´s :} Boo
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: martno1fan on November 28, 2008, 01:22:00 pm
Good luck to you i will never use spektrum in a boat even spektrum themselves wont endorse its use in a boat ,especially petrol powred and ive asked them ,any delareship that sells them for use in boats in my opinion is been very misleading.Far too many people have lost $$$$ using them in expensive boats for me to ever risk it,and why bother when futabba fasst works flawlessly.
Mart
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: omra85 on November 28, 2008, 05:12:24 pm
With high speed boats using surface drive, there is usually a large "rooster-tail" of water being thrown up behind the boat. Now, as we know, 2.4GHz does not transmit through water. So it follows that at some time when racing in close proximity to the rear of another boat, your receiver aerial may be shielded by that spray. The closer to the "blocking" boat's transom you get, the more possibility of the occurence, due to the density of the spray being greater.
This would be almost unnoticable as the "blocked" boat would be either overtaking or being overtaken, both of which happen fairly swiftly.  That is - unless both boats were of an equal speed but even then, the "blocking" would only last seconds as the "unblocked " boat would turn onto another part of the course.
I don't know whether this has actually happened as the odds against all elements being in place at the same time must be VERY small ie your boat being passed/passing another boat with the widest, densest part of its roostertail directly in line between your transmitter aerial and your receiver box!
Even IF my theory is correct, I believe the odds to be sufficiently small that I have just bought the Futaba FC7 in 2.4GHz - so here's hoping  :-))
Of course, this would only effect boats in close proximity to a boat throwing up a large roostertail (and travelling similar speeds), so a scale boat should never have this problem - if anyone's throwing up roostertails, they shouldn't be THAT close to your boat anyway   :police:
I imagine that there is more chance of metal blocking the signal when using a large internal exhaust pipe alongside the radio box, but as I use "over radio box" exhausts, it wouldn't effect me anyway.

Danny
OMRA85
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: martno1fan on November 28, 2008, 05:30:25 pm
Thats a good point Danny ,but one thing fasst has over the spektrum is the channel hopping feature thats why it doesnt seem to suffer signal losses anywhere like the spektrum does on water.They all use it in the states in racing where very few use spektrum due to the problems mentioned b4.Spectrum locks onto one of two channels  whereas fasst doesnt so the chances of glitches with fasst is minimal,never say never but so far ive not heard of any issues with it unlike spektrum.By the way i have no antenna on my boats the two small 4" antenna wires are inside the box and ive never had a problem with range to date,just keep them as near to 90% as i can and it works really well.
Mart
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: andyn on November 28, 2008, 09:46:08 pm
And so begins the same constant moanings about modern technology that WORKS PERFECTLY WELL that is leading me to cancel membership to the Ivinghoe yahoogroup....

A little reminder, I have 7 cars and 3 planes running on my Spektrum DX6i. NO PROBLEMS
Bill had his makara running out on Llanberis this year, taking it almost on the other side of a mile wide lake. NO PROBLEMS

The technology is absolutely fine, and as for the rooster tails idea, that was pointless even being mentioned.

And radio aerials should always run out of the box, you are just asking for trouble with that one.

Set it up right, and it will work flawlessly from the day you buy it to the day you drop it in the lake.

Andy (peeved off about the constant putting down of 2.4gig equipment - have you guessed yet?)
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: martno1fan on November 29, 2008, 10:49:02 am
Im not putting 2.4 equipment down far from it what do you think futaba fasst is?,spektrum is crap in a boat i know 3 people in the uk who have tried it and all fialed in petrol boats.There are hundreds in the states maybe thousands.Ill stick to fasst thanks and ohh in the box is fine thats how i and most guys i know run the twin antenna fast receivers never a glitch nor issue with range so ill continue with it cheers  :-)).By the way Andy if i buy a spektrum and it doesnt work are you going to refund me the money seeing as your so confident it works ?,that Bill has one that works is good for him  but for everyone that works theres half a dozen that dont so for me its not worth it,my mate tried two diff ones same problems with both,ran fine for ten mins then that was it out of controll boat one crashed badly as it had built in failsafe second didnt crash.Andy cars are not boats nor are planes ,ring spektrum and ask them what they say about its use in fast boats.
Mart
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: martno1fan on November 29, 2008, 05:51:15 pm
Danny i cant find the radio you mentioned is it the 7c? if so its fasst so you wont have any issues on water at all.You might however want to read this ,mines the 6ex and was worried when i first bought it but mine turned out to be fine thank god .
Mart
http://2.4gigahertz.com/techsupport/service-advisory-tm7-7c-6ex.html (http://2.4gigahertz.com/techsupport/service-advisory-tm7-7c-6ex.html)
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: OMK on November 29, 2008, 07:09:57 pm
Of the two major players in the battle for 2.4GHz supremacy, regarding the issue of Spread-Spectrum versus FASST technoligies, it seems kinda strange that nobody has mentioned the actual build quality of their particular transmitters. Nobody likes to hear that their chosen radio is a duffer, and will defend it to the hilt - regardless if it IS a duffer. So rather than choose radio XYZ just because the guy in the store told you it's better than an ABC radio, it's probably far better if you could take a peek at the innards of a Spektrum Tx AND a Futaba Tx, because what you will find is a HUGE difference in quality.
For instance, the next time you remove the rear cover in order to, say, tweak the stick tension, while you're there take a good gander at what you're looking at. Then compare what you're looking at with the build quality of a rival Tx. Both major players are charging approx' the same for their wares, yet the superior build of one particular brand leaves the other miles behind..... which perhaps should be far a more important factor to consider when choosing a particular radio, rather than issues regarding the type of modulation they each employ. It shouldn't need the brain power of Einstein to figger out that quality = reliability.
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: Bill D203 on November 29, 2008, 09:18:53 pm
Here goes.
I run a 26cc petrol Makara OMRA type boat. I started out by using a Sanwa Gemini 40 MHz set up. I very quickly found that there was /is a big dead spot at the top end of my home water. The fail safe would always come in at the same spot. I tried a different receiver/ failsafe/ Transmiter,all   which failed at the same spot. The problem came to a head at the Bryan Bach OMRA meet when i had traveled 3 hour to get there on a Sunday morning and the boat stopped on the same spot on the course which was laid out. What a wast of time. So after taking advise from many OMRA D class boat owner moved on to Futaba 2.4 Ghz set up. After all this years D class chapion didn't win all them races with a radio set up that dose not work 110%.
My next outing was to the Mayhem weekend at Llanberis. There I found loads of water to play on. I decided to push the boat out to a distance which would be over what i normally want to race with OMRA races. NOT A PROB. It was under control all the way.
Now i understand that there has been alot   set up probes with this new type of radio system, but mine seems to be ruining just fine. I got a second receiver to put in my next boat as I am very happy with its prefromance so far.
So to sum up 40 MHz 100% trouble
                    2.4 Hz 100% GOOD
This is only my findings so far, but I am a happy boater now, it was worth my money changing.
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: omra85 on November 29, 2008, 09:22:47 pm

The technology is absolutely fine, and as for the rooster tails idea, that was pointless even being mentioned.


Andy, while you were racing your cars, I was competing against guys who had bought the "new" Spektrum sets and were having control problems. I also know one or two have been having problems recently so I'm pleased that you are able to dismiss my unproven idea out of hand!


And radio aerials should always run out of the box, you are just asking for trouble with that one.


Unless you are using a radio box made of metal, I can't see why they would have to be outside. Far better to try and maintain the watertightness of the radio box with less holes, I'd have thought!

There will always be people who are hesitant about shelling out loads of money on a radio that THEY have no experience with - I was one of them - I just hope I'm OK with mine.

PMK
I wouldn't dare 'poke about' with my new set, so I'll bow to your superior knowledge - IF you're talking about the Futaba being better  O0
If not, then Mrs 85's Christmas present might prove a handfull .....   :D

Danny
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: Bill D203 on November 29, 2008, 09:44:20 pm
Just sat in the bath & came up with the ONLY thing I'm not happy about. I can't get out of Ripmax the bits of plastic you need to make the throttle return to the center position. Dispute my local hobby shop trying every week to get the bits NO LUCK, BAD SHOW Ripmax.
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: OMK on November 29, 2008, 09:45:11 pm
Superior knowledge, my aunt fanny.
But panic ye not - even the manual says it's okay to take a delve. You might want adjust the stick tension at some point, or maybe add/remove the ratchet from the throttle stick. So you're in no danger of invalidating anything. Go on, take a butcher's. Then take a butcher's inside the OTHER one.

Judging from what you're saying, I think it's safe to say that you're gonna enjoy this year's Crimbo pressie.
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: OMK on November 29, 2008, 09:50:17 pm
"I can't get out of Ripmax the bits of plastic you need to make the throttle return to..."

Ripmax schnipmax. R.I.P max.
Try here...

http://www.modelhelicopters.co.uk/acatalog/m_index.php
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: jules64 on November 29, 2008, 09:56:55 pm
Bill D203

Try Inwoods

http://www.inwoodmodels.co.uk/pages/index.php  Go to Futaba and transmitters.

RAT16EXSRK Ref : SPRING RETURN KIT FOR 6 EX (8053)

Not sure if it is in stock as website doesn't confirm it.

Best wishes
Jules64
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: Bill D203 on November 29, 2008, 10:14:41 pm
Thanks Juels for the info. However the site will not take orders under £5.00 It's £1.90 total.  Thanks for trying i will have to buy something eles to make it up to £5.00
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: omra85 on November 29, 2008, 10:18:00 pm
Bill
Why do you want to be able to use half throttle - you've never needed it before  {-) {-) {-)

Danny
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: wideawake on November 29, 2008, 10:22:31 pm
Just a thought.  Why not swap over the self- centring components from the other stick vertical axis?

Guy
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: Bill D203 on November 29, 2008, 10:37:01 pm
It's not true Danny ok2 ok2 ok2 It's the bit between stop and we havn't got flat out yet :} :} :} Enjoy using Futaba 2.4Ghz. I am.
Guy. thanks for that i will have a look in the morning. :-))
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: martno1fan on November 29, 2008, 11:20:49 pm
Here goes.
I run a 26cc petrol Makara OMRA type boat. I started out by using a Sanwa Gemini 40 MHz set up. I very quickly found that there was /is a big dead spot at the top end of my home water. The fail safe would always come in at the same spot. I tried a different receiver/ failsafe/ Transmiter,all   which failed at the same spot. The problem came to a head at the Bryan Bach OMRA meet when i had traveled 3 hour to get there on a Sunday morning and the boat stopped on the same spot on the course which was laid out. What a wast of time. So after taking advise from many OMRA D class boat owner moved on to Futaba 2.4 Ghz set up. After all this years D class chapion didn't win all them races with a radio set up that dose not work 110%.
My next outing was to the Mayhem weekend at Llanberis. There I found loads of water to play on. I decided to push the boat out to a distance which would be over what i normally want to race with OMRA races. NOT A PROB. It was under control all the way.
Now i understand that there has been alot   set up probes with this new type of radio system, but mine seems to be ruining just fine. I got a second receiver to put in my next boat as I am very happy with its prefromance so far.
So to sum up 40 MHz 100% trouble
                    2.4 Hz 100% GOOD
This is only my findings so far, but I am a happy boater now, it was worth my money changing.



Good post Bill thanks for sharing which set are you using? i use the futaba 6ex fasst radio and its awesome and both antennas are in the box.There seems some confusion by some here about fasst and spektrum yes they are both 2.4 but thats where the similaritys end FASST is far superior due to the channel hopping feature.As ive said fasst = no issues on water spektrum on the other hand  %),even they wont advocate its use on water email them and ask.Incidently sanwa now have a new 2.4 setup that is similar to the fasst setup and it also works well on water.

Mart
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: Bill D203 on December 03, 2008, 05:05:12 pm
Hi DI hi
Just to tell you happy boatersknow I have had to put up with a week away from home this week. The weather here is a cool 23 deg c . the sea look just right for running my Makara. Just have to miss the folks swimming  :} O where am i ?? In southern Cyprus :D :D :D. Still back to Heathrow terminal 5 on Friday night. Can you all do your best to warm things up a bit for my return :-)) :-)) :-)) Let hpoe T5 DON"T lose my bags for me.
Cheers for now. be back on line Saturday.
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: andyn on December 03, 2008, 10:01:32 pm
Dont worry Bill, we're keeping it nice and cold for your return, and as a cherry on the top there's a pretty nasty fluey type virus going around (that I have) for you to catch when you get back...
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: martno1fan on December 11, 2008, 02:10:58 pm
Hi guys due to the recent arguments about using Spektrum radios on water i decided to contact them again and ask them,heres what they replied about it.
 Hi Mart.
Thankyou for your email.If you are using Spektrum technology we don't recomend this for water applications,what can happen is the signal can be blocked by the reflection of the water .
I hope you find this information usefull,if you have any more questions please reply to this email or call me on this number *******.
 Thanks
Paul L.
Product Support Team Member
Horizon Hobby Distributors

 ps i asume as i contacted spektrum direct and horizon replied they must be one and the same or linked in some way.heres the link i used to contact them
http://www.spektrumrc.com/ (http://www.spektrumrc.com/)
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: wideawake on December 11, 2008, 02:52:12 pm
Hi Mart

Thanks for that info, which I assume has come from horizon Hobbies in the US.   I have no reason to disbelieve it but nor do I think it's possible to ignore the fact that hundreds of boaters are using Spektrum kit with no problems, as are hundreds of others using Futaba gear.   Horizon Hobbies UK still make the following comment

"Boats and ‘bots’
The DX6 is ideally suited for both boats and robots as well as ultralight planes and helicopters but remember with boats keep the aerials above the water and for robots use the dedicated ‘bot’ receiver SPM6000BR, which incorporates programmable fail-safes on all channels."

at the bottom of page URL http://www.horizonhobby.co.uk/aeroonline/e6spektrum/e6dx6/e6dx6.html


While I think it's useful and important to identify and discuss the pro's and con's of all sorts of equipment, I don't think it's helpful to trash any particular manufacturer when, as I say, many people's personal experience is entirely positive.   

My own view is that Spektrum kit is entirely satisfactory for most waterbased applicatiions at the ranges generally used.  This is based on practical use and also specific tests.   Like you, if I'd had a bad experience resulting in a damaged boat, I'd be wary of repeating the experiment whatever manufacturer was involved.

If you accept the above, then IMHO the DX5e represents the most economical way into 2.4GHz for Mr average boater.  I have never suggested it's use in high speed ic boats because I have no personal experience of them.

Finally I have no intention of getting into an argument with anyone.  I merely offer a view (as you do) based on my own experience.

Cheers

Guy
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: martno1fan on December 11, 2008, 03:14:18 pm
Thanks for that link Guy now you know what im going to do dont you  O0 yup send it to horrizon in the states,they have told me before under no circumstances will they ever advocate its use on water,with all the guys saying ive used it and such i though ok ill ask them again,got the same answer no we dont recomend it.As regards your claims that peoples experiences have been possitive i have to disagree because i have only seen a handfull of users that said it works fine but ive seen a great number say it didnt work for them.While i can see it wouldnt be as bad on say sailboat running at a few knots it could be disasterous in any fast boat travelling from between 30 and 70 mph.It only takes a minor glitch on a fast boat and its history  :o.
Mart
ps if you dont want to believe me email them yourselves on that link and hear it from them yourself.Im trying to save people from spending hundreds of pounds on radio gear that is not recomended by the designers themselves to be used on water,which i did say time and time again if you look back.
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: wideawake on December 11, 2008, 03:38:24 pm
Thanks for that link Guy now you know what im going to do dont you  O0 yup send it to horrizon in the states,they have told me before under no circumstances will they ever advocate its use on water,with all the guys saying ive used it and such i though ok ill ask them again,got the same answer no we dont recomend it.

Surprise surprise!  :-)  I'll be very interested to see what the reaction is.


Quote
As regards your claims that peoples experiences have been possitive i have to disagree because i have only seen a handfull of users that said it works fine but ive seen a great number say it didnt work for them.While i can see it wouldnt be as bad on say sailboat running at a few knots it could be disasterous in any fast boat travelling from between 30 and 70 mph.It only takes a minor glitch on a fast boat and its history  :o.

What I said was that hundreds of people are using them happily.   I think that if not there would be a lot of adverse feedback to forums like this and to the magazines.   A few weeks ago I was at the Model Boat Show here in the UK and DX5e sets were being snapped up like hot cakes at £60 each.

I did say in my post that a) I could understand anyone who'd sufferd a nasty crash to be suspicious and b) that I'd never recommend anything 2.4GHz or otherwise for fast ic boats as I've no experience or practical test data for these.

[/quote]
Quote

Mart
ps if you dont want to believe me email them yourselves on that link and hear it from them yourself.Im trying to save people from spending hundreds of pounds on radio gear that is not recomended by the designers themselves to be used on water,which i did say time and time again if you look back.

As I said, I believe you.  i just don't see the experiences you relate repeated over here either in my own boating or in the pages of the mags.

Cheers

Guy
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: martno1fan on December 11, 2008, 03:54:16 pm
I spend most of my time on american forums as theres more info on there about my type of boats and theres literally hundreds of guys that have had issues with them whereas very few have actually ever had issues with the Fasst system in fact i can only recall one or two and that was due to the failsafe kicking in because of the battery pack they were using simply been not strong enough.That alone made my mind up when i was looking at changing from fm.For me if a manufacturer themselves says to me they dont recomend its use on water then id say that says it all .I run fast petroll powered boats so for me its fasst or FM only,anyway i posted the reply to let people make there own minds up,if they still want to try spektrum thats up to them but id advise them to contact spektrum not the uk seller and see what they say.Im not bashing anyone here im just giving the facts that were given to me by them.For the record i use FUTABA FASST and it works flawlessly on water.
Mart
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: Peterm on December 11, 2008, 06:40:14 pm
It is pretty obvious to me that the crux of the matter is what type of boat you use the system with.   The Spektrum system may well not be suitable for the fast ic type of boat, but it is ideal for the sort of boats that I have,ie, boats that I can sail on our relatively small club water.  Pete M
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: Bill D203 on December 11, 2008, 06:50:04 pm
My Futaba 2.4 set up is still going strong. The RX is in a ally box in the back of the boat with the Aeriel comming out at 90 deg from the box. NO Probs at 40 mph. Ask Martin , steamboat Phil and Stavros. They saw it running at Llanberis this year. GOOD Stuff FUTABA.
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: wideawake on December 11, 2008, 09:15:45 pm
It is pretty obvious to me that the crux of the matter is what type of boat you use the system with.   The Spektrum system may well not be suitable for the fast ic type of boat, but it is ideal for the sort of boats that I have,ie, boats that I can sail on our relatively small club water.  Pete M

Pete has put what I've been saying but more succinctly!   I never was one for using one word when five would do  :-)  Mart has apparently valid concerns about Spektrum gear in the boats he uses.  That's fine, but I wouldn't want others, who have entirely different requirements, to be put off buying a very good value entry level set in the DX5e which will in my experience, perform fine in their uses, by assuming that they will get the same problems.

HTH

Guy
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: martno1fan on December 11, 2008, 09:58:00 pm
Fasst is the way forward channel hopping avoids blocked signals,oh by the way someone else on another forum called them on the phone and asked if they would recommend any of theire radios even the ones with the modules for use on water and they said most def not.You cannot recommend something to guys saying it works when the people who design and build it say otherwise.Bill your using fasst stop calling it 2.4 lol theres a big diif between spektrum  2.4 and fasst its like night and day.spektrum locks onto one of two channels whereas fasst channel hops all the time so its not locked onto one for any length of time so less chance of been blocked,im no technical guru but thats how i understand it.That ali box seems to have held up well mate  :-)).
Mart
ps rather than use spektrum your safer using fm in a boat ,thats also cheap and i know id feel safer with fm than spektrum
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: Stavros on December 11, 2008, 10:58:23 pm
My Futaba 2.4 set up is still going strong. The RX is in a ally box in the back of the boat with the Aeriel comming out at 90 deg from the box. NO Probs at 40 mph. Ask Martin , steamboat Phil and Stavros. They saw it running at Llanberis this year. GOOD Stuff FUTABA.

Got ma Futaba set myself I run it on a 6v nimh set up on a 1 mtr yacht at well over 500 yds and not a problem.I sail for well over 4hrs with no probs at all.Forget all the garbage posted about batts etc even on a 6v gell cell I get over 5hrs with none of this absoloute POO POO about drops in voltage as someone on this forum is saying.Listen,you will only get that kind of voltagae drop if you dont charge your batts before sailing..fact.The fact of the matter is go out there and just sail



Stavros
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: martno1fan on December 11, 2008, 11:24:31 pm
Latest gem from horizon is yes we are aware it says on the dx6 on the uk site it can be used in bots and boats as technically it can,but we are aware of it having problems on water where a few have said they had to swim to retrieve there boats etc,so we will not recomend its use on water.So thats as clear as mud then lmao  ;D.Stavros as i keep saying futaba fasst is brilliant ,as for spektrum a guy just told me he paid over $400 for his gear so he can use diff modules in his cars and boats and after talking to horizon hes now wanting his money back as they told him the same thing they told me .Its a lot of money to spend on something that might or might not work.As for batterys i use hump packs ,nimmh cells theyre the larger cells than the aa think theyre sub c ? anyway i hardly need to do more than a 1 hr charge the night before i run and they last all afternoon running at 60 mph or more .Lots of strain on the batterys at that speed i can tell you but they last really well and hold a charge for weeks.
Mart
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: Stavros on December 12, 2008, 07:29:40 pm
Hi mart after reading all the blurb on  Specktrum ,thats why I went for the Futaba Fasst,as for the MINH they are AA in  hump pack from Component shop.



Stavros
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: craftysod on December 12, 2008, 07:36:47 pm
I got a spektrum dx6i,no problems as of yet,but its not a fast boat,so cant comment on that
Mark
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: omra85 on December 12, 2008, 08:22:16 pm
People will buy what they want, that's what makes it such a diverse and interesting hobby. Your best source of information is usually your local club where members have PERSONAL experience. Hopefully they won't "ram it down your throat" that you should buy what they have  >:-o

Right - what's next, tugboats versus lifeboats?

Danny
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: craftysod on December 12, 2008, 08:28:37 pm

how about a lifetug boat  %)
Mark
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: DickyD on December 12, 2008, 08:50:56 pm
People will buy what they want, that's what makes it such a diverse and interesting hobby. Your best source of information is usually your local club where members have PERSONAL experience. Hopefully they won't "ram it down your throat" that you should buy what they have  >:-o

Right - what's next, tugboats versus lifeboats?

Danny


Not playing with you Danny, I've seen how you drive.
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: omra85 on December 12, 2008, 08:54:40 pm
Look - I've already apologised, hitting your wheelchair with the boat was an accident   %)
Anyway, you were only 20 yards from the waters edge, so it's your own fault  ;D ;D

Danny
 :P
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: DickyD on December 12, 2008, 09:06:00 pm
Look - I've already apologised, hitting your wheelchair with the boat was an accident   %)
Anyway, you were only 20 yards from the waters edge, so it's your own fault  ;D ;D

Danny
 :P
And I was travelling in the wrong direction as well, I suppose ?
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: Shipmate60 on December 12, 2008, 09:17:55 pm
Sounds  like a good shot danny, bigger boat next time!!

Bob
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: GARY C on December 12, 2008, 09:18:38 pm
Hi mart after reading all the blurb on  Specktrum ,thats why I went for the Futaba Fasst,as for the MINH they are AA in  hump pack from Component shop.



Stavros
    I feel a lot happier after reading this thread, I was one who went for the futaba FASST system, never had any problems running my ic OMRA boats. My main complaints are, life of supplied batteries and price of an extra 606 / 607 receiver. I was saying on another thread that I wish I had obtained the spectrum dx5 set. Only because of the price.
Iv,e read the attachments from the guys in the USA and now believe I  have chosen the right set for my own needs. I would not knock the spectrum sets, but prehaps they only suit the scale and sail boats.
I will be upgrading my batteries in the new year.

Gary.

Gary.
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: omra85 on December 12, 2008, 09:30:41 pm
Sounds  like a good shot danny, bigger boat next time!!

Bob

And he was a moving target  {-)

I'll have him next year  :-))

Danny
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: martno1fan on December 12, 2008, 09:33:48 pm
Hi mart after reading all the blurb on  Specktrum ,thats why I went for the Futaba Fasst,as for the MINH they are AA in  hump pack from Component shop.



Stavros

You wont be disapointed with it mate i love mine i just hate the price of the spare rx that i need to buy for my other boats  :o.You seem to be having good run times with your AA batterys but if you decide to change go for the sub c they last for a very long time,when i changed over i couldnt believe how little charge they lost after a days running.Anyway hope everyone has a great Christmas even you Stavros  ;).
Mart
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: Ghost in the shell on January 03, 2009, 04:22:38 pm
I have the Futaba 6EXA :)  40mhz

as yet i wont go for the 2.4ghz as none have a 5 proportional channels.

Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: andyn on January 03, 2009, 10:11:15 pm
I have the Futaba 6EXA :)  40mhz

as yet i wont go for the 2.4ghz as none have a 5 proportional channels.



What about the Futaba 14MZ with TM14 2.4ghz module?
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: omra85 on January 04, 2009, 07:34:29 pm

as yet i wont go for the 2.4ghz as none have a 5 proportional channels.


I've just got the Futaba 7C 2.4 which HAS got 5 proportional channels (I needed a proportional control away from the sticks).
Great set and can be set up to do anything on any control. Also has EPA etc on all channels.
Thanks Santa!

Danny
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: OMK on January 04, 2009, 09:19:22 pm
I've just got the Futaba 7C 2.4 which HAS got 5 proportional channels...

I brought one of those back from the States, running on 72MHz - modified it for UK freqs' when I got home.
A great little radio.

Ditto with the Fut' 9C. Pretty much the same as the 7C but with a few extra mixes and other goodies for good measure.
Title: Re: What Transmitter?
Post by: omra85 on January 06, 2009, 10:48:50 pm

 modified it for UK freqs' when I got home.


OOOHH!  What would Mr Ripoff say ......    {-) {-)

Danny