Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => Glue etc. => Topic started by: FishdockBob on October 06, 2008, 11:35:41 PM

Title: Glue test. Gorilla/Flex/Loctite/JB Weld Youtube.
Post by: FishdockBob on October 06, 2008, 11:35:41 PM
I am hoping to plate my hull that I have built with plasticard (10 thou of an inch), but am not sure what glue to use, its a wooden planked hull that has had two coats of poly resin applied to it. I was thinking along the lines of evostick or some other kind of contact adheisive. But was hoping some one who has maybe done this kind of work, could advise me. Thankyou.

Bob...
Title: Re: Glue advice
Post by: FishdockBob on October 07, 2008, 01:55:46 PM
The above should read "I am hoping to plate my hull, that I have built with plasticard"  and not that I have built the hull out of plasticard. But that I want to plate a wooden hull that has had 2 coats of resin with plasticard. Phew if only I had put that comma in the right place... {-) :D

Bob...
Title: Re: Glue advice
Post by: DickyD on October 07, 2008, 01:59:09 PM
Pardon ?  :-\
Title: Re: Glue advice
Post by: FishdockBob on October 07, 2008, 02:24:52 PM
Sorry for the confusion  ;)
Title: Re: Glue advice
Post by: FishdockBob on October 07, 2008, 02:25:41 PM
Just for you DickyD "What glue do I use for sticking plastic to cured  resin ?... O0

Bob...
[/quote]
Title: Re: Glue advice
Post by: FishdockBob on October 07, 2008, 02:27:36 PM
 :-\ :-\
Title: Re: Glue advice
Post by: dreadnought72 on October 07, 2008, 02:36:01 PM
Evostick would be fine. Do paint over it all, though!

Andy #1963
Title: Re: Glue advice
Post by: John W E on October 07, 2008, 03:10:48 PM
Hi there

When I built the Moray Firth the coaster, I plated the hull, the same way as you - using plasticard - and, I used Superglue to glue the plates the hull - which was the same style of hull as yours - wooden hull (coated with polyester resin).  There must be approx 500 plates on the Moray Firth's hull and none have come off YET  O0   My model has been around for about 8-9 year and despite what Dicky things  :P it has been in the water a lot more times than Dicky has had baths  :P :D :D :D and it has the bluebird battle scars to prove it - ask Riggers what that means  :D O0  (as in operator not watching where the model is going whilst steering and the model tries to climb out of the lake).

Aye
john
bluebird
Title: Re: Glue advice
Post by: DickyD on October 07, 2008, 03:19:10 PM
Hi there

 My model has been around for about 8-9 year and despite what Dicky things  :P it has been in the water a lot more times than Dicky has had baths  :P :D :D :D and it has the bluebird battle scars to prove it - ask Riggers what that means  :D O0  (as in operator not watching where the model is going whilst steering and the model tries to climb out of the lake).

Aye
john
bluebird

I haven't got a bath, I have a wet room.  ::)

My boat hid itself in a bush alongside the lake whilst I wasn't looking, but fortunately we could hear it as it has a sound system. :embarrassed:
Title: Re: Glue advice
Post by: FishdockBob on October 07, 2008, 03:29:27 PM
Thankyou very much Dreadnought72 for confirming the Evostick route, my thoughts were to glue with Evostick then consolidate everything with another thin coat of resin, then paint on top. Bluebird again thankyou for your advice, unfortunately I get a very severe reaction with CA,s. I have read that a few of the lads on here now use the odorless type CA. I may try this product in the future, and hopefully show no reaction. Thanks again for your time.

Bob..
Title: Re: Glue advice
Post by: FishdockBob on October 07, 2008, 03:35:50 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      - ask Riggers what that means :D O0  (as in operator not watching where the model is going whilst steering and the model tries to climb out of the lake).

Aye
john
bluebird


Hmmmmmm an amphibious boat eh, An intersting concept.  ;) ;)
Title: Re: Glue advice
Post by: Colin Bishop on October 07, 2008, 03:46:51 PM
I also get a bad reaction to standard CA. One whiff and it's 3 days severe hayfever symptoms. I can tolerate the odourless stuff but wouldn't want to use it on a large job. Also it doesn't seem to stick quite so well without using an accelerator. In your case Evostick would seem top be the way to go.

Colin
Title: Re: Glue advice
Post by: FishdockBob on October 07, 2008, 04:11:55 PM
Its strange isnt it Colin how it dosen,t affect some people. There,s a lad who lives near me who often spends 8-10 hours a day 6-7 days a week building model boats in an unventilated w/shop and has done for the last twenty or so years and the biggest part of his builds are with CA,s and he dosent, or hasent suffered any reaction at all.
I do suffer with an asthma type condition through 15 years or so shotblasting/paint spraying mostley ships hulls/tanks etc, so have to watch what materials I am using.
Title: Re: Glue advice
Post by: John W E on October 07, 2008, 04:43:31 PM

Hi there FishDockBob - if you send a pm to this guy here on this Forum - StarLocAdhesives/FiveStar - he specialises in different types of glues/Superglue etc., and he really to me is the best one to give advice about Glues.  O0

The only thing that puts me off using Impact Evostik - apart from the smell - which to me is twice as strong and deadlier than Superglue is, if you make a mistake in positioning your plate, it is one hell of a job to remove the plate and also the glue from underneath.    I know the same can be said with Superglue - but, having said that, I use the gel-superglue, which gives a little time to work and position your plates.

The other thing I use, whilst using Superglue in large quantities -is, I use 2 computer fans connected to a 12 volt battery to draw the fumes away.   I did have a desk fan - still do - but that causes enough trouble than enough - PS I do suffer, like you do, from chest ailments and sometimes when I get a bit lax and say 'oh I will use the Superglue without the fans' - me chest ends up wheezing like a rattly old engine.  :)

aye
john e
bluebird
Title: Re: Glue advice
Post by: Guy Bagley on October 07, 2008, 05:05:05 PM
the other place is
www.adhesivebrokers.co.uk

they offer all types of adhesives, and they also supply some multinational companies- they know their sticky stuff !

friendly advice,  and as said before i have no interest in this business, i am just one very satisifed customer
Title: Re: Glue advice
Post by: Colin Bishop on October 07, 2008, 06:53:24 PM
Jusrt another thought. I have been using Evo Stik Wet Grab around the house for various jobs and it seems to work really well. Waterproof and doesn't smell either. I reckon it could be quite suitable for glueing plasticard to grp. It's supposed to even set underwater!

http://www.visit4info.com/advert/Evo-Stik-Wet-Grab-Evo-Stik-Product-Range/59729
Title: Re: Glue advice
Post by: FishdockBob on October 07, 2008, 08:17:01 PM
Jusrt another thought. I have been using Evo Stik Wet Grab around the house for various jobs and it seems to work really well. Waterproof and doesn't smell either. I reckon it could be quite suitable for glueing plasticard to grp. It's supposed to even set underwater!

http://www.visit4info.com/advert/Evo-Stik-Wet-Grab-Evo-Stik-Product-Range/59729

Well I think this is the boyo that I need to be using. Thankyou for that.

Bob..
Title: Re: Glue advice
Post by: StarLocAdhesives/FiveStar on October 09, 2008, 08:18:32 PM
CA should do the job fine , but if the vapour is a problem (it shouldnt be) you could use the odourless CA , generaly its best with the odourless to use an activator as it is always slower, although we have the fastest odourless available its still slower than the standard CA, balsa to balsa odourless is no problem, very quick set, but on plastics its slower due to lack of moisture to trigger the cure.

Contact glues would also work fine, but they are harder to get the bits in the right place, our contact sticks instantly, but you can seperate the parts for about 5 minutes so it does give more time than some contact glues, you can also use our contact glue as a general adhesive assembling while wet.

CA vapour should never be a problem if used correctly......in a well ventillated room etc, as you can not become allergic to it......
But it will irritate your mucous membranes (sinuses) untill they are burned, the burning will trigger the bodys response of producing mucous , this blocks your sinuses and then you will get headaches, the same with your chest, eyes etc, too much vapour and it will dry the surface of your eyes, and your lungs, making the body moisten them, making you cough and your eyes water

Just dont get a large dose of vapour in your eyes an there will be no effect, if you get a large dose of fumes, give up with the glue till the next day and all will generaly be fine, it cant build up in your body, but if the surface gets burned/dried by the vapour then it will not go away untill the fumes do, then your body will heal, once healed/symptoms are gone just dont let the fumes build next time and you should be fine.

The odourless can not give any symptoms as it has such a low vapour presure and high molecular weight that the fumes can not enter the air in quantities that could ever cause a problem, but if heated it will still cause problems (soldering iron etc)

Most of the glues with solvents are actualy more toxic, but again used according to manufacturers recomendations they are quite safe

Some glues with no apparent vapour are the most toxic of all, such as moisture cure polyurethanes, they give off odourless isocyanate vapour, that will set in your lumgs, so glues having a smell can be good, at least you can smell them

We have just started selling retail (has been available from ourselves to the adhesives trade for a few years) a waterbased contact glue formulated from polychloroprene (most common brand of polychloroprene is Neoprene) , you use it just like evostick, but it has no solvents ,you can wash it off before it drys, once dry it is 100% waterproof (the main use we supply it for is adhesive for manufacturers of waders and wetsuits)

We now (10 minutes ago) have the waterbased contact on ebay

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360096470485



 
Title: Re: Glue advice
Post by: StarLocAdhesives/FiveStar on October 09, 2008, 08:20:22 PM
CA should do the job fine , but if the vapour is a problem (it shouldnt be) you could use the odourless CA , generaly its best with the odourless to use an activator as it is always slower, although we have the fastest odourless available its still slower than the standard CA, balsa to balsa odourless is no problem, very quick set, but on plastics its slower due to lack of moisture to trigger the cure.

Contact glues would also work fine, but they are harder to get the bits in the right place, our contact sticks instantly, but you can seperate the parts for about 5 minutes so it does give more time than some contact glues, you can also use our contact glue as a general adhesive assembling while wet.

CA vapour should never be a problem if used correctly......in a well ventillated room etc, as you can not become allergic to it......
But it will irritate your mucous membranes (sinuses) untill they are burned, the burning will trigger the bodys response of producing mucous , this blocks your sinuses and then you will get headaches, the same with your chest, eyes etc, too much vapour and it will dry the surface of your eyes, and your lungs, making the body moisten them, making you cough and your eyes water

Just dont get a large dose of vapour in your eyes or breath it in an there will be no effect, if you get a large dose of fumes, give up with the glue till the next day and all will generaly be fine, it cant build up in your body, but if the surface gets burned/dried by the vapour then it will not go away untill the fumes do, then your body will heal, once healed/symptoms are gone just dont let the fumes build next time and you should be fine.

The odourless can not give any symptoms as it has such a low vapour presure and high molecular weight that the fumes can not enter the air in quantities that could ever cause a problem, but if heated it will still cause problems (soldering iron etc)

Most of the glues with solvents are actualy more toxic, but again used according to manufacturers recomendations they are quite safe

Some glues with no apparent vapour are the most toxic of all, such as moisture cure polyurethanes, they give off odourless isocyanate vapour, that will set in your lumgs, so glues having a smell can be good, at least you can smell them

We have just started selling retail (has been available from ourselves to the adhesives trade for a few years) a waterbased contact glue formulated from polychloroprene (most common brand of polychloroprene is Neoprene) , you use it just like evostick, but it has no solvents ,you can wash it off before it drys, once dry it is 100% waterproof (the main use we supply it for is adhesive for manufacturers of waders and wetsuits)

We now (10 minutes ago) have the waterbased contact on ebay

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360096470485



 
Title: Re: Glue advice
Post by: Colin Bishop on October 09, 2008, 10:08:41 PM
Sorry, but I have to disagree with your comments about CA. As I stated previously, I find that the slightest whiff of the standard version, whether indoors or outdoors triggers a severe allergic reaction which lasts at least three days. And I know I'm not alone. The so called odourless type does in fact have an odour and the effect is much reduced but I can only use it very sparingly.

I'd really love to be able to use CA but it hates me!

Colin
Title: Re: Glue advice
Post by: StarLocAdhesives/FiveStar on October 09, 2008, 11:31:08 PM
The CA molecule is too large to trigger an allergic reaction according to the world health organisation, they have run many tests on it and they checked doctors reports from reported cases that claimed a reaction and found no case that ever showed any allergic reaction to CA

But....it can make you feel ill, like the flu

Some people are more sensitive to the effects of inhillation of many things, but the only reaction with CA is purely as an irritant to the mucous membranes, burning/drying them, some people are effected more than others often a sensitivity is caused by other things being used or by the conditions the CA is being used in

i get headaches from CA used on balsa , but not from CA with no balsa!

The odourless CA is a completely different chemical to the standard CA and should have no effect whatsoever (if it is the type that is safe on polystyrene foam) , the smell you can get on the odourless CA is not the cyanoacrylate, the smell you can get is usualy perspex powder that is dissolved into CA to thicken it, this should not create a problem either , but is common to both CA adhesives slightly different grades of perspex but both contain perspex

in standard CA the smell is generaly higher from thicker grades of CA , and higher again from the gel CA due to increased surface area and the chemistry of the product, have you tried the thin with no activator

A good tip with CA is before using the CA, put a bowl of hot water (or a humidifyer) near were you are working, the added humidity will make the CA set faster,and it will also make the CA vapour levels less in the air as the CA is being used
Title: Re: Glue advice
Post by: Colin Bishop on October 09, 2008, 11:50:49 PM
OK, I accept that it may not technically be an allergic reaction but in my case, and others that I know of, the symptoms are those of acute hayfever which lasts for three days which fits in with your comments about irritating the mucous membranes. The only way I can use it is to take the workpiece out into the garden, hold my breath, glue the joint and run like hell! I really wish it was different but i have to accept that the only CA I can readily use is the odourless variety.

On the other hand, I seem to have no problems with epoxy which some people can't use.

We are all different I suppose.

Colin
Title: Re: Glue advice
Post by: FishdockBob on October 29, 2008, 11:45:16 AM
Well I tried the Evo Stick Wet Grab, but I wasn't satisfied with it really. Although it gives you ample time to position your piece, it takes too much time for the contact element of the glue to "kick in". While this wasn't as much of a problem on the flat parts of the hull, it did cause problems on the more curvier parts of the hull. I changed over to standard Evo Stick to do a comparison, and while you have to be precise, in placing your piece with the standard, the results were far better then the "wet grab" glue.

On the CA irritation debate which seems to have evolved out of this thread, and in my case the irritant so much nasal/sinus, it really does get my chest and the symptoms are really wheezy breathing and the feeling is the same as being "winded" and not been able to catch my breath.

Bob...
Title: Re: Glue advice
Post by: Martin [Admin] on December 29, 2018, 03:08:01 PM
 
 I'm sure someone posted this video on here recently.... but I can't find it, so...



Title: Re: Glue advice
Post by: Taranis on December 30, 2018, 09:59:13 AM
WOW Martin  %%  resurrecting a 10 year old thread  8) 8)
Title: Re: Glue advice
Post by: Brian60 on December 30, 2018, 03:10:05 PM
I watched that video xmas day (ok I was bored!) I like the attempt to glue a cylinder head down with the JB Weld and no bolts :D But it did show as the best epoxy. I've since watched a couple more in his series, the penetrating fluids, the superglues etc. Interesting videos but I must say not conducted scientifically. I've had some counter results to what he found with some of what he has tested. At the end of the day its got to be down to what works for you.
Title: Glue test. Gorilla/Flex/Loctite/JB Weld Youtube.
Post by: tigertiger on January 03, 2019, 06:54:28 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4xX7VecgzA
A really aggressive product comparison and multi materials gluing test and I was surprised how badly one of my favorites did.
Title: Re: Glue test. Gorilla/Flex/Loctite/JB Weld Youtube.
Post by: roycv on January 03, 2019, 08:33:12 AM
Hi TT, I think this video has been put on this forum a year or so back, but I watched it again.  It is a thorough test but as he points out JB Weld is a two part adhesive,
I would like to make a point about PVA or white glue.  Nearly all modellers have spring type clamps holding the joint until it dries.  These form brittle joints.  If you clamp with a screw clamp the joint will not fail before the wood does.

 I inadvertantly found out after having mistakenly glued up part of a boat hull wrongly.  I had to undo the glue joint and reverse a part.  there were some spring and some screw clamps used.
The spring clamped joint opened up with a knife blade inserted, the screw clamped would not open at all, the wood split apart.
I still use the spring clamps but not much, I now use screw clamps where ever I can.
Regards

Roy
Title: Re: Glue test. Gorilla/Flex/Loctite/JB Weld Youtube.
Post by: KitS on January 03, 2019, 09:15:11 AM

I would like to make a point about PVA or white glue.  Nearly all modellers have spring type clamps holding the joint until it dries.  These form brittle joints.  If you clamp with a screw clamp the joint will not fail before the wood does.


Why?

How does the wood/plastic/whatever know what's producing the clamping force?
Title: Re: Glue test. Gorilla/Flex/Loctite/JB Weld Youtube.
Post by: roycv on January 03, 2019, 10:12:22 AM
Hi KitS, it is a matter of how much pressure is exerted.  The screw clamps enabled a lot more pressure to be applied.  This squeezes the glue into the wood surface.  However it is only for porous materials like wood that this applicable.
Solvent 'glues' used sparingly for plastic to plastic joints weld the two parts together.  They then become as one.

If you are working with metal then a soft solder joint (lead and tin) is eleven times stronger than an epoxy joint, quote from Model Makers engineering manual.

There are several types of epoxy there are others better informed on those than myself.  I do find the cheap Poundland epoxy works for most things.  I do not know whether price is a guide here.
The interesting glues are the multi surface ones.  I use Stablit Express for plastic to wood.  It is two part and rather expensive but the best I have found.

Some items like electric motors using 20 watts or less can be held in place using clear bathroom sealant it works well absorbs a little vibration and a strong pull releases the motor if necessary, likewise for sealing a prop tube in place, it is quite strong enough and if you wear out the bearings in the shaft, easily repairable.
I sometimes restore old model boats and frequently replace the prop shaft and tube.  I find a pair of gripping pliers around the prop tube and a sudden 30 degree twist breaks most old glue joints.
regards
Roy
Title: Re: Glue test. Gorilla/Flex/Loctite/JB Weld Youtube.
Post by: tigertiger on January 03, 2019, 10:48:31 AM
Clamping pressure is important to get glue down into the grains. Although too much pressure can also push the glue out and leave the joint dry.
One thing I would say about the wood test in the video, the tester is gluing end grain to end grain, which is never recommended. Neither is end grain to long grain if it can be avoided. Long grain to long grain is always best, and even PVA joints will be stronger than the wood if done properly. I use outdoor grade PVA for almost everything now. I would only splash out for some of the specialist glues if I need longer assembly times. Things like Titebond are import only items here and cost way too much.