Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => The "Black Arts!" ( Electrics & Electronics ) => Topic started by: andygh on November 07, 2008, 10:20:58 PM

Title: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: andygh on November 07, 2008, 10:20:58 PM
Anyone of the electronic whizzes out there attempted repair of an Electronize esc? How easy is it to get components for the older ones now?
Alternatively do Electronize or anyone else repair them?
I wouldn't mind but it wasn't even me that broke it, <:(   honest guv  O0
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: Seaspray on November 08, 2008, 12:51:12 PM
Phone them or enquire on line they'll probably repair it


Seaspray
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: regiment on November 08, 2008, 02:56:05 PM
i had a electronize speed control that i broke crossed wires  p to n repaired  for a token amount plus posted  regiment  {-)
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: andygh on November 08, 2008, 05:42:29 PM
Sorry to be a bit dim, p to n??
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: gribeauval on November 08, 2008, 06:20:27 PM
Sorry to be a bit dim, p to n??

He wired it up backwards!!  Positive to Negative.   {-) {-) {-)
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: regiment on November 08, 2008, 06:53:43 PM

could not spell negitive or positive just woke up after 40 winks regiment :embarrassed: :embarrassed:
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: andygh on November 08, 2008, 08:10:19 PM
Doh, sorry but then I wouldn't have known that ................................ I'm only an electrician  :embarrassed:
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: John W E on November 08, 2008, 09:06:48 PM
Hi there Andygh

When you say, your speed controller is old - how old do you think the speed controller is?   Have you removed the casing off the back of it?    If so, did you note the number on top of the chip???

Was it ZN409CE?  - if so Noah built it with the ark  ;)

or

did it have a silver strip across the top?   with ED4O something on it??? 

Give Electronize a ring and speak to them.   The chances are you may have fried the 'output' transistor but not knowing any symptoms  of the POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOF it is difficult to analyse what it may be.

it could be simple in that you may have burnt a track out underneath on the circuit board, which, if it is - you may be able to correct that yourself - or, it may be the case of what we have mentioned above.

or it may have the NWF syndrome  :}  (NOT WORTH FIXING).

aye
john e
bluebird
i
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: philk on November 08, 2008, 09:25:54 PM
don't laugh but i still have some zn409 and 419 chips in a box somewhere

phil
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: John W E on November 08, 2008, 09:27:53 PM
don't laugh but i still have some zn409

Im not laughing - I have some stashed away as well - plus some speed controller circuits to build using them :-) {-) {-) :embarrassed: :

Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: andygh on November 08, 2008, 09:47:35 PM
Hi fellas
it is indeed a zn409 chip, don't know the circumstances of it going kerblooie as it was a gift (cheers mate  %)). The tracks look perfect and I can't see anything physically wrong.
A very rudimentary check with the volt meter shows 6v coming out until a load (g.o.w bulb) is applied, when it drops down to 0v'ish and the relay changes over like it should.
Apart from that is there any simple test you could suggest that might give me a clue to what's wrong.
I have a feeling it could be fubar as without knowing exactly where the problem lies it doesn't seem worth the effort of trying to source very obsolete components
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: microgyros on November 09, 2008, 07:19:39 AM
Relay,transistor or drive to transistor.
Fubar?        No
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: andygh on November 09, 2008, 07:45:27 AM
Sorry?  {:-{
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: Seaspray on November 09, 2008, 08:56:09 AM
Hi  :-))

The usual way to say positive is  +ve and negative is  -ve. Hope this helps you in the future.

Seaspray
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: microgyros on November 09, 2008, 09:01:00 AM
Hi fellas
it is indeed a zn409 chip, don't know the circumstances of it going kerblooie as it was a gift (cheers mate  %)). The tracks look perfect and I can't see anything physically wrong.
A very rudimentary check with the volt meter shows 6v coming out until a load (g.o.w bulb) is applied, when it drops down to 0v'ish and the relay changes over like it should.
Apart from that is there any simple test you could suggest that might give me a clue to what's wrong.
I have a feeling it could be fubar as without knowing exactly where the problem lies it doesn't seem worth the effort of trying to source very obsolete components
The above tells me it's one of the three things I mentioned.
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: malcolmfrary on November 09, 2008, 01:38:24 PM
The fact that the relay operates as expected indicates that relay and ZN409 are alive and well.  Suspicion now falls on the output transistor, the circuit driving it, and the bits of printed circuit. 
My faulting procedure now would be to hook up battery and motor, and short the collector and emitter (assuming a bi-polar transistor) or equivalents to see if the motor fires up.  If the motor does turn, then the transistor is either not switching on because it's broken and therefore can't, or not switching because it is not being told to.
But I would advise most folks to just contact Electronise first to see if they can fix it.
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: andygh on November 09, 2008, 01:40:08 PM

Quote
The usual way to say positive is  +ve and negative is  -ve. Hope this helps you in the future.

Quote
I'm only an electrician

Very helpful, I've only been doing the job for 25 years  O0 %) :kiss:
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: andygh on November 09, 2008, 01:42:25 PM
Cheers guys, I'll have a play with it later, let you know how I get on
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: Seaspray on November 09, 2008, 02:22:26 PM
There is a difference between electronics and electrics.

You can power up the ESC and after a while feel if there is a hot chip or another discrete component that is hot.that might be the problem.

You can do a voltage check if you know the test points and voltage expected but use the same ground point.

You can trace current if you have a current tracer/AVO/AMP meter,  can get in series with the track your testing,

You can check chip's pins I.D. again if you have the correct reader.

You can use a frequency meter to check the frequency and adjust the necessary pot/ variable resister to get the correct frequency.

You can check the digital pulse with a scope or there is a pen that tells you if the power/signal is 1 or 0

Hope this helps..... I am just learning

Seaspray

   
 

Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: John W E on November 09, 2008, 04:25:53 PM
Hi Andy

one of the tell-tale signs of frying the output transistor on Electronize is - as soon as you connect up the main battery - you either get full reverse, flat out or nothing else.   Or, you get full forward, very very small dead band - in other words it goes from full forward momentarily stop and then straight into reverse with no controlling of the speed.

What you are describing when you put a load on her, the output goes to zero volts...the last time Ihad something like this one one of these speed controllers - believe it or not - it was a dry solder joint at fault.

Very much it will be a dry solder joint, but, you never know.

aye
john
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: andygh on November 09, 2008, 08:27:22 PM
OK, this is where I'm at
I've been over all joints with the iron just to make sure there were no dry joints, sadly made no difference  <:(

Shorted out the collector & emitter on the output transistor, motor spins up to full speed  :-))
Anyone know where I can get 1 BUK555 60b tranny or what an equivalent might be?

Incidentally, the motor spins at full speed during this exercise whatever the throw of the transmitter stick, although it does change direction at the correct point, is the output transistor still implicated under those circumstances?  {:-{
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: Proteus on November 09, 2008, 11:51:20 PM
this came out of one of them recently buz11 .. it had 3 legs when it went in


Proteus
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: FullLeatherJacket on November 10, 2008, 07:44:54 AM
Anyone know where I can get 1 BUK555 60b tranny or what an equivalent might be?

The BUK555 is obsolete and I can't find anyone listing it any more - certainly none of our regular or occasional suppliers. Craig Talbot used this device in the old P17 ACTion Bilge Pump, and I recently fixed a dead unit for a customer by fitting one of our cheap-and-cheerful NDP6060L MOSFETs in its place. It might not be the best equivalent but what the heck - it worked, and I have a bucket full of 'em.

If you want to try one of these I'll happily supply one at cost plus P&P. I reckon you'd have change from a couple of quid unless you live in Siberia.........

Suit yourself.

PM me if you want to proceed.

FLJ
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: OMK on November 10, 2008, 10:15:17 AM
...which brings us nicely around to the final question of the day.........

What was the root cause of the BUZ11 going blooie in the first place?


(Answers please on the reverse of a twenty quid note).
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: malcolmfrary on November 10, 2008, 11:24:41 AM
Quote
Incidentally, the motor spins at full speed during this exercise whatever the throw of the transmitter stick, although it does change direction at the correct point, is the output transistor still implicated under those circumstances?
By shorting out the transistor you have simulated it switching on, thus the motor spins flat out and is not controlled by the stick.  The stick is still sending to the ZN409, though, and that registers whether or not the relay should be operated, and its the relay that controls the direction of rotation.  The implication is either a dead transistor or broken bit of cicruitry driving it.  I would take up FLJ's offer.  I couldn't find that transistor in my elderly equivalent book, either, but there is every chance that his will have the same pin-out and near enough the same characteristics.
They don't all look like Proteus' when they go, but its a dam' good clue when they do.
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: John W E on November 10, 2008, 11:41:28 AM
hi there one and all

hey I knew I had one somewhere - and I am busy looking through all of this paperwork which I have hoarded for too long  :}   I am sure that I have the components list as well.   This is the circuit diagram for the Electronize speed controller that uses the ZN409 chip.   It may be of assistance to some - I'll be back.

FLJ - do you want a fair exchange - and no robbery   :D  if I send you about 70 instructions for various ACTions components along with pricelists which go back to 1999 for some ACTion kits - would you send me ........ erm a ...... erm  %%  cos I do have to get shot of some of my hoarded paperwork. Howway man, I still have the Maplins stuff dating back to 1980's...price lists......old museum springs to mind.....  :D :D :D

aye
John e
bluebird
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: Seaspray on November 10, 2008, 11:55:16 AM
Wish it had voltages and the chip pin I.D.s marked up

As I said earlier this year I thought there would have been more SMT components used on the newer ones

Never mind a  new Mtronics cost only a score

Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: FullLeatherJacket on November 10, 2008, 11:59:41 AM
(Answers please on the reverse of a twenty quid note).

Welcome back to Electronville, O Great and Worshipful Dude!
You wouldn't know what to do with a twenty pound note if you ever got one (like a dog chasing after a car) .............. ok2
FLJ
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: John W E on November 10, 2008, 12:13:04 PM
 :-))
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: OMK on November 10, 2008, 12:24:51 PM
Bluebird, if I were in your shoes I'd hang on to all your paperwork. You can bet your bottom dollar that you'll be kicking your own bum if you bung it in the bin. It's like gold dust. Look after it, stash it under your pillow or something, treat it like a good woman, because you can guarantee you're gonna need it some day!

AndyGH, if you're earwigging, you might heed what Malc' F is saying. One of FLJ's NDP6060L's would indeed do the trick. It's pin-for-pin compatible with your BUZ11, albeit with a slightly superior specification, so all you have to do is pop it into place on the PCB (assuming, of course, you remember which way round the metal tab should be facing).
And welcome to the "We-love-ZN409's" club.
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: OMK on November 10, 2008, 12:41:22 PM
Bluebird:

Ooops!... apology time. I just re-read your penultimate and realise you weren't planning on binning that paperwork after all.
Yeah, do a deal with with FLJ and scroung as many MOSFETs as you can.

Me, I would know what to do if'n I had 20.00. I'd buy twenty-quid's-worth of NDP6060L's and stash 'em in me junque-box.
Just yesterday I managed to pop THREE of 'em (bummer!), all because I got too lazy to reach for me anti-static mat.
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: malcolmfrary on November 10, 2008, 01:22:32 PM
Looking at Bluebird's diagram, if you look at the junction of R4 and R7 with a meter (preferably a non-digital one because there is a dwell angle involved) you should see a variation in voltage in sympathy with the position of the stick - the further the travel, the bigger the voltage.   A digital meter takes a sample many times a second, and displays the result - with a voltage switching up and down rapidly this can result in a display full of 888s, a meter with a coil and needle evens this out and gives a better idea.
If there is a variation, it means that the output transistor is being told to switch on and off, but isn't, and can be considered broken.
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: andygh on November 10, 2008, 01:53:18 PM
Well thanks guys, looks like I'm sorted transistor wise (though I might be back if I manage to make it go bang again FLJ, thanks for your offer), hopefully it will be job done when the new one is fitted.
I think several beers are owed, you're a very helpful lot on here. I've learned a few of things & I hope I can pass on a bit of assistance to someone else in the future

Thanks again fellas  :-))

Oh, and I'll have to dig out me Dads old Avo, I know I've seen it somewhere around here in the last 6 months  {:-{

Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: Seaspray on November 10, 2008, 05:17:51 PM
Keep hold of the  AVO mate, its worth its weight in gold.  :-))

Batteries might be a little flat if stored for a wee while.

Best instrument for fault finding.  :-))  :-)) I think

Seaspray
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: Roger in France on November 10, 2008, 05:34:53 PM
One post removed from this thread after agreement with the originator.

Roger in France
Moderator.
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: andygh on November 10, 2008, 05:57:26 PM
There won't be any batteries in the Avo, the Old Fella was fairly careful about stuff like that  :-)). It's a small portable bakelite one in a leather case, I don't s'pose it's been calibrated since about 1968.
I'm desperately trying to remember where it is now, I don't fancy emptying out the shed in this weather  :'(
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: John W E on November 10, 2008, 06:06:06 PM
Oh the days of the old ZN409 - how simple life was - if you have a look at the circuit diagram there were only twelve resistors there - and the equivalent jobby Electronize do today - there are thirty-two resistors - quite a lot more work. 

Andy, I am sure FLJ sells a good little volt meter for about six quids...you know the bloke ... the gent ACTionman.....

aye
john
bluebird
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: andygh on November 10, 2008, 09:05:51 PM
Thanks Bluebird but I have a couple of Fluke metres that are in use every day. As Malcolm said, an analogue meter is best for the test he suggested which is why I was waffling on about my Avo
Anyhow, I can't find the Avo so gave the ESC a prod with my digital jobbie, I get a reading (albeit a wobbly one) of .006v around the deadband rising to .034v at the end of each throw, does that sound about right?
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: Seaspray on November 11, 2008, 08:26:32 AM
Any way mate don't let it go !!!

Seaspray
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: wombat on November 11, 2008, 10:40:15 AM
...which brings us nicely around to the final question of the day.........

What was the root cause of the BUZ11 going blooie in the first place?


(Answers please on the reverse of a twenty quid note).

Remember - the root cause of any problem is the most fundamental one that you can apply a countermeasure to!

No sign of any damage to the FET or the tracks, appears to work until under any sort of load, no matter how small. My suspicion is that there has been some sort of electromigration within the FET causing the internal conductors to thin to the point of failure. There is just enough leakage to swing a DVM (10MR input resistance) but nothing else. Basically the thing has died of old-age - the stress of life just got too much for it and it failed gracefully

Wom
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: Sandy Calder on November 11, 2008, 11:32:43 AM
Hi Wombat,
That will not fit on the back of a twenty pound note.
You are confusing two different posts. The BUZ11 shattered and was soldered in as a replacement in somebody elses unit.Andy's one had the original BUK555.

Look at the gate plateau of a BUZ11.It is unsuitable for 5 volt logic level drive.
I put it in different terms after PMK posed the question but the "illigitimate" thing was removed due to foul language.
Regards
Sandy Calder

Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: malcolmfrary on November 11, 2008, 12:29:32 PM
Quote
Anyhow, I can't find the Avo so gave the ESC a prod with my digital jobbie, I get a reading (albeit a wobbly one) of .006v around the deadband rising to .034v at the end of each throw, does that sound about right?
Given that DVMs can be out and out liars with rapidly changing waveforms, it COULD be about right.  All my transistor learning and practice happened with bipolar types (learning on germanium, practice on silicon) - due to the lead time of technology changes I escaped FETs, so I have to rely on younger, better looking people for expert opinion on them.
Some time and several computers ago, I had some freebie software that used the computer sound card as an input for low voltage signals that could be displayed on screen as a scope display.  Not only that, but it was a dual beam storage one.  Limited to audio frequency, but it was free.
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: Sandy Calder on November 11, 2008, 01:43:18 PM
If you hanker after one of those sound card scopes you can now nick your kid's nintendo and find the plug in scope converter.
I was setting up a boat next to my desktop pc last night and the servos went ape poop until I moved away.
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: wombat on November 11, 2008, 07:56:22 PM
Hi Wombat,
That will not fit on the back of a twenty pound note.
You are confusing two different posts. The BUZ11 shattered and was soldered in as a replacement in somebody elses unit.Andy's one had the original BUK555.

Look at the gate plateau of a BUZ11.It is unsuitable for 5 volt logic level drive.
I put it in different terms after PMK posed the question but the *Naughty Word* thing was removed due to foul language.
Regards
Sandy Calder

OK so I was looking at the BUK55. And whether it will fit on a 20 pound note depends on the size of your writing - I reckon I could easily get a hundred words on one.

PMK

The failure on the shattered BUZ11 - clearly excessive current. My first thought is either a short on the output or the connections have been reversed and the internal protection diode has become forward biassed. This I suspect is the likeliest cause of failure. I agree the threshold voltage of the BUZ11 is a bit high for the application - but the typical value at 2V means that you will get away with it most of the time. That said, it would mean that the likliest problem in normal use is that you couldn't get enough current into the motor because the channel on the FET had saturated -  the motor would tend to be a bit sluggish, especially on acceleration. You could get overheating because of the high channel resistance, but I suspect that a lack of motor speed would be the main symptom

Wom
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: Sandy Calder on November 11, 2008, 09:27:44 PM
http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheets/50/118235_DS.pdf
 (http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheets/50/118235_DS.pdf)
Page 2 fig.5 :P
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: wombat on November 11, 2008, 09:33:59 PM
Yes, it is a standard set of output characteristics.....and?
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: Sandy Calder on November 11, 2008, 09:41:22 PM
Wombat.
If you can fit 100 words on the back of a twenty then what is wrong with your eyesight?
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: wombat on November 11, 2008, 09:49:57 PM
Absolutely nothing. I can see exactly what is on the figure (my eyesight is good enough to see it is actually on page 3)

Now what is your point?
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: Sandy Calder on November 11, 2008, 10:02:33 PM
You lot in the God squad have a very strange sense of humour.
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: wombat on November 11, 2008, 11:08:40 PM
Is that a non-sequitur or a stream of consciousness?

And do you know Barry Park?
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: Sandy Calder on November 11, 2008, 11:13:19 PM
Barry Park left a trail of clues about five miles long.
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: wombat on November 11, 2008, 11:18:26 PM
Indeed - however said individual is far from unique - not all Pauline epistles were written by Paul
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: FullLeatherJacket on November 11, 2008, 11:20:03 PM
Barry Park left a trail of clues about five miles long.

Ah! That - and the smell -  explains why his surname is spelled backwards.............
We live and learn.
FLJ
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: Sandy Calder on November 11, 2008, 11:27:31 PM
Ah! The leader of "Bash Electrosneeze" is back.....
Do yo have a cache copy of my first avatar? - Polychrome and Bluebird
Ask No Mustang Mark my age? 110 = 1898
Remember my first website link
Sandy is the original installation artist.
Phil (Thomas)Edison
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: andygh on November 11, 2008, 11:37:57 PM
AHEM  :police:, anyway, new transistor is fitted and the new symptoms are..... motor runs at full speed in all throttle positions though reverses as it should

any more clues fellas?
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: Sandy Calder on November 11, 2008, 11:45:10 PM
BUZ off.....this is a hijack.

onthe other hand do check the outputs of the ZN409 because the relay pin can be ok and the ones that drive pwm are gone.
Once that is ok go back to the FET gate and trace back.
Also test for a FET case short to -ve.
Regards
Barry Park
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: FullLeatherJacket on November 12, 2008, 08:44:55 AM
Ah! The leader of "Bash Electrosneeze" is back.....

I have never "bashed" Electronize products on this forum - or any other forum. I had one a long time ago (pre-ACTion) and it never gave me any trouble at all. You can see at least one example of them at any model boat club on any given Sunday.

There's really no need to 5lag-off other manufacturers' units - especially one with such a fine and long-standing reputation as Electronize. It's not clever and it's not productive - modellers are not complete idiots, even if they don't understand the stuff you write.

Andy - if you need a new ZN409 chip then I still have a few in stock.

FLJ
Title: Re: Electronize speed controller's gone pooooooof
Post by: Martin [Admin] on November 12, 2008, 09:29:11 AM
Right, this topic needs a clean up!
I'll lock it for now, get the Hoover out and unlock it later.

Martin  <*<